test-drb June 2000

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

160 participants
580 discussions

by foo＠siconic.com

On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > An aside: It's amazing, how some people over on E-bay, will add "Imsai > Altair" to descriptions of all these non-descript S-100 computer boxes > and parts. Of course, nobody is fooled, and the prices stay low. (Same > with Well, the prices staying low must be a new thing. There's a reason they put "Altair IMSAI" on their ads, that being that lots of people would fall for it for lack of an understanding of recent computer history (i.e. suckers). Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California See http://www.vintage.org for details!

24 years, 6 months

The cost of collecting debate

by steverob＠hotoffice.com

IMHO, it's arrogant to think that ANY old computers (other than a few very rare exceptions) are all that "valuable". If all the TRS-80s, ALTAIRS, SWTPs, all the documentation, and software, etc... were to disappear tomorrow, life as we know it would not change. The reason that I collect is that I enjoy tinkering with and restoring old machines. It has nothing to do with monitary gain, historical preservation, mentoring children about the "old ways", or saving the world from the loss of some irreplacable techno-saur. With the exception of "monitary gain" all the other reasons above are BS! Frankly I do have enough money to buy almost any computer I want and I do buy from E-Bay. I also buy from garage sales, flee markets, thrift stores, and other collectors. I have driven as much as 800 miles to pick up a system that I particularily wanted but, I have NEVER paid too much. I've always paid EXACTLY what I was willing to pay. The good thing about forums like Ebay is that they give you the opportunity to set the price that you are wiling to pay. If someone else is willing to pay more, so be it. Sure I've been disapppointed because I didn't get a system that I was bidding on but, so what. By the same token, I found a system that is the only surviving member of it's species for $50. Is it irreplacable? Sure it's irreplacable because there aren't any more. Would it really matter if I tossed it in the trash? Maybe to a few people on this list but other than that... not really. Before anyone goes on another rant about throwing a machine in the trash, let's take a poll: Assuming I was to offer it for free, who on this list (other than captain napalm who's only 10 miles away) would drive to South Florida to pick it up? Steve Robertson

24 years, 6 months

Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> > Try telling it to the unemployed hardware hacker who's figured out how to > > fix things that the manufacturer claimed could only be repaired at their > > factory with special equipment. > > If in fact it truly requires specialized equipment and this hacker > can demonstrate that it doesn't, I'm at a loss to understand why said > hacker is unemployed save by choice. With all due respect, Chris, and acknowledging that this may vary >from region to region, the ability to find gainful employment has less to do with one's technical skills than it does with the balance of one's employment skills and personality. For example, it's far more important to my employer that I wear a crisp shirt and tie each day than that I know trend <x> or technology <z> (unless I hadn't said so before, I'm a programmer working as a system administrator; long story behind why). YMMV, etc. -doug q

24 years, 6 months

Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> Not true. Nearly every museum will welcome volunteers with open arms, and > as long as the artifcats are not abused, they can be worked on and used. > Just about anyone on this list is welcome at RCS/RI to play with any of > our machines. Once we know people well enough, machines can be taken home > on a loan basis. In this we are not some odd organization - many museums > work exactly in this fashion. And the price is zero. Bill- While it really helps to have "live" organizational skills, I think a group of organizationally-challenged folk could do wonders if they had a roadmap to follow, and from the sounds of it, you & Merle & Co. have put together something special. Have you considered writing up either your experiences in putting the RCS/RI together, or even better, something closer to a step-by-step guide to finding the interested local parties and what to look for in terms of facilities (lots of space & separately derived 3-phase power systems are obvious; other things are less so). It may never happen here in the Louisville area (whatever critical mass of interest is required may or may not be present), but I'd like to try getting it started. We have a Museum of Science and Technology, but it's all mass-public stuff, IMAX Theatre, etc. -doug q

24 years, 6 months

Temporary Departure

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

I'll be off-list for a while due to an upcoming vacation. Back soon! 73 de WD6EOS -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

24 years, 6 months

$700 TRS-80???

by allisonp＠world.std.com

-----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink <bill(a)chipware.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 11:55 AM Subject: $700 TRS-80??? >Can anyone explain to me why a TRS-80 model 1 level 2, no expansion >box or floppies, just the base unit, ps and monitor, would sell for >$700 US? There were several bidders willing to go over $600. Stupidity. >There are several more, more complete, systems on ebay right now in >the $20-$60 range. There's also one with a $460 starting bid and >no bidders. Is there something I'm missing on this one? buy the cheap one. ;) Allison

24 years, 6 months

Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo

by foxnhare＠jps.net

Obviously you are looking in the wrong places if the price of equipment is too high for you nor are you looking at the "big picture"... Sure, I use eBay, but only for stuff that's cheap, if it is too expensive I look for things other people don't know about or haven't thought of collecting yet. (My BASIC games book collection is doing nicely, thank you.) If I can't get stuff on eBay cheap, then I scour the thrift stores, yard sales, newsgroups, shows like VCF, etc. If computer X is too expensive, I wait, heck, in 5 years I'll probably get one, I'm in no rush... (thats how I got most of my computers cheap, either buy it new in stores or wait a few years till it's lifespan brings it to Salvation Army...) Also if you have the webspace available - do justice to your favorite collection and help others, this is not only a status symbol for the collector but also let's visitors know that if they clean out their closet of classic stuff/info, there is a place they can send it to who will appreciate it and use it to assist others. (yes, I have received a few contributions and am very appreciative.) But of course if you fall into the "beanie babie" - collect for investment croud, that advice is a moot point. There are alot of aspects to a computer collection, not just the machines; there is the software, cables, controllers, peripherals, manuals, books, magazines, ads, stickers, buttons, etc... (in fact some of the software, manuals books and magazines are probably more rewarding to find than some of the computers...) > Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:34:33 -0700 > From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis(a)mcmanis.com> > Subject: Re: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer > Association? Was: Yo > > At 07:46 PM 6/27/00 +0100, Tony wrote: > >I've seen it said (in print) several times that various hobbies were > >ruined when the rich got involved and simply started pouring money in. > > Sounds a bit like the joke, "What that place? Nobody goes there > anymore, > its too crowded!" > > - --Chuck -- 01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101 Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363 300-14.4k bps Classic Commodore pages at: http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html 01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011

24 years, 6 months

Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:40:31 -0400 (EDT) William Donzelli <aw288(a)osfn.org> writes: > So what? At least some people can afford to go. For a lucky few, it > might just be a short trip in the car. Better a few than none... If you can afford it, go. My point is that despite organized efforts, not everyone will have access (for various reasons). This isn't the promoter's fault; it's usually a matter of geography. > How about real museums? Nice, but individual ownership is a much more valuable experience (to the individual). Not possible once these systems become 'Museum Pieces'. > How about speadiung knowledge - informing the public and each > other about the history? We have forums like this one. But I guess you'll *need* an 'official' organization now: It's becomming apparent that only certain opinions are now considered 'acceptable'. > How about saving hardware and software that is out of the reach > af any individual? Groups of caring individuals have always worked together towards this end. In the past, the money wasn't a motivation. I don't know if this will reman the case in the future. > How about professional recognition? I always figured that the real {hobbyists | enthusiasts} weren't (by definition) 'professionals'. The original developers? Write one a letter, thanking them for their contribution. I did. How about security for our collections? Keep your {door|gate|porticullis} locked. > > And I'm saying, all you will be doing is raising the cost of > > admission. There's nothing anyone can do to stop you, of course. > > If Classic Computing becomes a 'legitimate' hobby with a > 'legitimate' > > organization, then I guess there won't be room for amateurs > > like myself. You professional 'true historical preservationists' > > can have it. > > Jeff, take your stinking attitude and get out of town. Please. The > one thing that hurts retrocomputing more than anything else is someone > like you. You know, I could get really angry at this last remark, but it just makes me sad. (Retro)computing was a 'joy' thing. It was so awesome because just about anyone could experience it. It was really something special because it's only major cost was the time and effort you put into it. What really mattered was what came from the heart, really. What really matters now, is what comes from the wallet. I guess it really wasn't so special afterall. Bye. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

24 years, 6 months

Rich vs. Poor: Middle Ground (Was: RE: Is it time for an Internat ional Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo)

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> Okay, if you want to take that tack on the subject, let's go: > So you're saying that only the rich and powerful are *worthy* of > a such as noble endeavor such as ours? Jeff, I'm using your quote as a starting point, please don't think I'm picking on you. Well, somewhere between rich and poor (I tend to count myself the latter), there must be middle ground. My current focus is on Primes, and I'm playing fast-and- loose with my bills (as well as selling things I'd rather keep) to try to get this system to a certain point where I'll feel comfortable with. However, had I managed to save that MicroPDP-11/73 >from the Jaws of Greed, I would likely have simply held on to it until I could find a better home for it. Strictly speaking, I'd say that's collecting and not preservationist. But at least I'd have kept it from the landfill. Ideally, the poor collectors amongst us can do lots of that. But I think it's incumbent upon us to be ready to give up posession to someone who can do the item more justice than we can. I think a phrase commonly stated about relationships might be applicable here. Rephrased: If you love something, let it go. I'm letting go of at least one of two unfinished SOL motherboards very, very soon (but my original working SOL I will keep). As to the rich: by virtue of your economic power, you might easily fall into the trap of compulsive acquisition. Fewer constraints hold you back, and so the ID runs wild. Had the Evil Lurker been restoring a personal system with the parts he was looking for, it would not have bothered me a wit. I'd like to take solace in knowing there's a good chance someone restoring a system will see the parts he has for sale, and buy them. But I'm afraid they'll just enter a nonterminating speculative loop. So, to the rich, let me say this: try to be aware of what's going on around you, and if you see you're trying to acquire something that some poor guy is also going for, remember, this may be his only chance, and you'll likely have another. And to the poor guys (like me), I say: be willing to give something up to someone who can actually get it going sooner than the 20 years it might take you due to your more limited financial resources. Just my tuppence' worth... regards, -doug q

24 years, 6 months

Rich vs. Poor: Middle Ground (Was: RE: Is it time for an Inte rnat ional Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo)

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> What if the machines are to be scrapped in a hurry, and no one can take > the whole thing? I would think that gutting the things is the best > option. A few parts are better than nothing... > > I have done this - specifically with a VAX-11/750 and 4D/380. These were > advertised on this list in the very early days, but I was apparently the > only one that could even get close to the machines. Needless to say, I > couldn't take the machines as a whole, so the cards were pulled. If that's the only choice- landfill or reduction to parts- sure, reduce it to parts. Sometimes, there's middle ground... -dq

24 years, 6 months

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test-drb June 2000