test-drb May 2000

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

172 participants
541 discussions

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Hello all, does anyone have a bootstrap for a PDP-11 from a TMSCP tape >drive? Have you tried the one at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ in the section you get to by clicking on 'bootstraps'? > My sigma RQD11 has an MSCP bootstrap that I can enable but it >doesn't boot from tape and the BDV11 only knows how to boot from DX, DY, >and DL (RL0x?). Yeah, installing software from tape was a rather late option for Q-bus machines, which started out (marketing-wise) at the "low" end of the PDP-11 spectrum. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

25 years, 1 month

Two LISP books available, dirt cheap.

by whdawson＠mlynk.com

Hello all, These softbound books are in very good condition. I'm asking 1.2 x shipping. Will ship USPS bookrate in the US. Here's what they are: Common LISP, The Language, Guy L. Steele Jr., Copyright 1984, Digital Press, ISBN 0-932376-41-X, DEC # EY-6706E-DP. Original price $23.00. This book is in almost new condition (never read). and Programming in Common LISP, Rodney A. Brooks M.I.T., Copyright 1985, John Wiley & Sons, ISBN 0-471-81888-7. Original price $21.95. Sold through CMU bookstore. Both books have a library stamp imprint on the title pages "Library of John Evan Bares". There are no other marks, highlightings or underlinings. Please contact me off list if you are interested in either or both of these. FCFS. I'll post to the list when they have been spoken for. Bill Dawson whdawson(a)mlynk.com <mailto:whdawson@mlynk.com> ?

25 years, 1 month

Cool AppleSoft BASIC trick I never thought of before

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On May 16, 21:03, Vintage Computer GAWD! wrote: > As an experiment, I wrote two simple programs: one at $801 that simply > prints "PROGRAM 1!" and then sets the start of the program to $4001 by > POKEing a 64 into 104 then issues a RUN command, and another at $4001 > that simply prints "PROGRAM 2!" and then sets the start of the > program to $801 by POKEing an 8 into 104 and issues a RUN. > > I run either of the programs and I get an endlessly alternating display of > "PROGRAM 1!" and "PROGRAM 2!". In other words, it works! Cool. > > The only problem here of course is that any variables in either program > will be quashed when the alternate program is run. However, there are > also pointers that point to the beginning of variable memory, and I'm sure > there would be a way to preserve these pointers so that individual > variables for either program stay intact between transitions. Something > worth exploring just for the hack value. I'm sure I've seen something similar, but I can't think what... it's a long time since I actually used Apple ][s. Something with a menu system for a set of disk programs, possibly. If I remember correctly, Applesoft BASIC is one of those that searches from the start of program every time it executes a GOTO or GOSUB. If I'm right, the easy way to preserve variables (and all the rest of the program state, including the GOSUB/FOR..NEXT stack) would be to POKE in the new start address and then GOTO 10 instead of RUN. If you do this, you better set LOMEM as well (but only once), or make sure the highest-loaded program is the first one RUN, so the variables start in a suitable place. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

25 years, 1 month

Goings on at the RetroComputing Farm (was Re: Finding Classic Computers)

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- allisonp <allisonp(a)world.std.com> wrote: > >Cool! I didn't know you flew. I'm a student myself - one more solo > > Yep, been drivin my C150 '528 for the last 21 years. ;) > > If things go well it may even wander over to Ohio in the next few months. Let me know if and when; I'll give you a tour of the collection at the farm. I'm about 15-20 minutes drive from Port Columbus (CMH) where I do my training (it's been educational learning in Class C space as compared to the other nearby options - Class D at OSU/Don Scott, or at smaller, uncontrolled airports). So far, Hans Franke has been by to visit, but he was in enough hurry to get back to Pittsburgh for his flight that he hasn't seen the inside of the quonset hut yet. For the moment, stuff there is in storage mode. The items in the house in the former den are all slated for cleaning, test and repair. My next restoration goals: ongoing work on the PDP-8/e (as soon as I can find my overhead memory connectors), its TD8E + TU56, and an RK05J on some flavor of LSI-11 (since I have a last-known-to-be-working RKV11D and an RK11-C in dubious shape and no RK8E). Further down the pipe are the external 8K memory box for the working -8/L, and a complete teardown and cleaning of my PDP-8/i, the second -8 that I found back in High School. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/

25 years, 1 month

TMSCP boot for PDP-11?

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

Hello all, does anyone have a bootstrap for a PDP-11 from a TMSCP tape drive? My sigma RQD11 has an MSCP bootstrap that I can enable but it doesn't boot from tape and the BDV11 only knows how to boot from DX, DY, and DL (RL0x?). --Chuck

25 years, 1 month

Booting VMS 5.5 from tape?

by hofmanwb＠worldonline.nl

quite nice isn't it ---------- > From: r. 'bear' stricklin <red(a)bears.org> > To: Classic Computers <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Booting VMS 5.5 from tape? > Date: Monday, May 15, 2000 4:59 PM > > On Mon, 15 May 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > I finally found my VMS 5.5 TK50's today and thought I would try to install > > VMS on my MicroVAX II. The tape loads in the TK50 just fine, but after typing > > B MUA0: > > It reads and reads and reads ... > > Bwahahah.. forgive the repost, but it had to be done. Just as a warning, > though, the article contains some strong language which may cause your > wallpaper to peel just a little. > > ok > r. > > > From: mabbas(a)staff.uiuc.edu (Majdi Abbas) > Newsgroups: alt.sysadmin.recovery > Subject: Exabyte whiners and real tape drives (tape drive dick length) > Date: 7 May 1997 00:09:35 GMT > Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana > Lines: 161 > Approved: tk50(a)godless.org > Message-ID: <slrn5mvi1v.ovs.mabbas(a)ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> > Reply-To: mabbas(a)uiuc.edu > NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu > Summary: TK50s blow. > Keywords: TK50 masochism > X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.2.1 BETA UNIX) > Status: RO > X-Status: A > > So here I am, sitting with *bootable* install media for my VAX[1]. > > The catch: It's on TK-50 tape. *One* TK-50 tape. Which means I've > got one shot, and only a 33% chance to make it close enough to even get that > shot. That's on a good day. Today is a Monday. > > What follows is *not* useful information. If you have one of these, > or have to work with one of these, you're too far gone to be recovering, and > this isn't going to help you any. May the God of DEC have mercy on your soul. > > Oh, and before I get going, those of you who whine about Exabyte > drives not ejecting tapes have no concept of a TK50. TK50's *do not* eject > tapes. You have to arm-wrestle the drive for the tape most of the time, and > even if you're lucky it's a manual eject[2]. > > Before you can eject the tape, the VAX has to think it's done with the > tape. This is a pretty simple concept, if it worked. The TK50s were not in > production very long, and for good reason. Rumor has it their replacements > are better.[3] > > I'm going to describe the operation of a TK-50, ignoring some of the > things that go along with booting a VAX. If you know them, I'm sorry, if > you don't, well, consider yourself extremely lucky. > > 1) Wait for green light. > 2) Pull drive flap up. > 3) Stick tape in, right side first or it won't fit. > 4) Coerce tape into fitting into the drive. > 5) Shove it all the way back > 6) Push drive flap down. You may need a hammer. > 7) Press Big Red Button. Green light will go off, red light will > start flashing, then go solid. > 8) Tape drive begins reading tape. > > Here's where we go off onto a tangent for a little bit, although it > is related. TK-50 (drive;cartridge;whole shebang) were designed by complete > absolute fscking lusers. > > The cartridges are nice and small. This is because they are just a > reel of tape. The other reel is inside the drive itself. When it starts to > read a tape, it snags the beginning of the tape using a leader that whips > around the spindle of the inside reel, and drags the tape in past the read > and erase heads[4]. > > 9) Drive reads tape, system boots, all is good. </SARCASM> > 10) You press the big red button again, wait 45 minutes for the thing > to rewind, then it stops and the green light goes on, it moves a > servo that allows you to move the drive flap again, then you are > permitted to remove the tape. No eject mechanisim whatsoever. > > Now, on with the show. > > So here I am, booting the VAX. > > Things are going good, we get past the 5 minute POST, and the drive > starts *reading* the tape. So the media is good and I'm actually thinking > I have a chance yet. Then the gods decide that they've had enough fun at my > expense, and it's time to get serious. > > Loading system software. > > 2.. > ?4B CTRLERR, MUA0 > ?06 HLT INST > PC = 00000E0A > Failure. > >>> > > My reaction: "Shit." > > VAX's reaction: "Yadda yadda yadda *WHOMP* *SCREEEECCCH* *thwap*" > "THWAPthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwapthwap" > [continues] > > My reaction: "MotherfuckingasslickingpieceofshitasspirateDECtapedrive." > > Actually, my reaction was much more lengthy and probably much more > obscene, but in the afterglow right now that's all I can remember. > > Knowing that the tape is hopelessly fucked and there went my last > chance for a while, I don't even bother with the normal procedures. This is > a TK-50. One must adapt constantly or get sucked in. > > I quickly wrestle the vax for the tape, remove it, and all seems good. > But I know what's coming. A few hundred feet of half-inch tape, all spooled > into the drives internals. > > I spend the next half hour removing tape from the drive, clean it up, > check everything out, decide to try out this unlabeled TK50 I have. Nope, > won't boot. Okay VAX, rewind tape. > > [Pause for one hour] > > VAX, surely you must be done with it now. > > VAX: Nope, it's still in there. I swear. > > Me: BULLSHIT. I can hear you flapping around empty. You're flapping > around so much that the VAX is about ready to take off and my hair is being > blown back. > > Me: Hits the power switch, pops the thing open, pulls the drive out. > Grabs toolkit and commences disassembly of the drive. Sure enough, it's done. > But I can't get the VAX to let go of the tape until it realizes that it's done, > which isn't going to happen. Powercycling et al will not make it realize that > it's done, it has to feel like relinquishing it's dinner. > > So, I'm now dissassembling the TK-50. Sure enough, the magic little > leader that feeds these tapes in is broken. Surprise surprise. Tape looks > okay tho. > > It's a couple of hours later, and I have one reassembled TK50, one > sliced hand, a screwdriver with a broken tip, a spare black plastic part, > three spare washers, a couple of spare screws and a spring. The tape is > still in the drive, and I've managed to get all of the first tape into a box > for convenient disposal at my leisure. Like I have leisure. Anyhow, I'd > like to make you an offer: Free TK-50 tape drive, including install media in > need of a manual rewind and a preloaded blank tape. Donatee must pay shipping > and psychiatric admission fee. Includes spare parts[5]. > > WTB: One SCSI Qbus card. > > I am *not* going through this again. Especially because I took > pictures of the aftermath of the first tape, and I'm going to post those > near the VAX as a reminder. Let me know if anyone wants scans. > > Every single bad thing you've ever heard about any tape drive doesn't > even begin to describe what the TK-50 is like. Exabyte 8200s have nothing on > these things and never will. DEC was fucking up hardware design years before > the advent of the 8200. I personally believe that the TK-50 is probably what > nearly bankrupted DEC. The number of man-hours wasted in-house wrestling with > these things alone is in the millions. It would have to be. > > I saw an RU-81A today. Now *there* is a sight. Appropriately in a > junkyard. For those of you involved with BOFHnet, what do you think of a > bofh.tdfh.tk50? This drive definitely has the FH aspect down. > > *sigh* > > Down, > not > across > > --Majdi > > [1] Currently hopelessly crippled due to a drive failure. > [2] The problem is that DEC assumed that the VAX knew more about what was > going on in this drive than the person feeding it ferrite. Boy did > they guess wrong. > [3] They *CANNOT* get any worse. > [4] Which are opposed from each other. > [5] You cannot disassemble one of these drives and not wind up with > spare parts. They can't be anything important, because the drive has > to work to suffer some performance degredation and they don't work, so > there is nothing to degrade. > > -- > Majdi Abbas <mabbas(a)uiuc.edu> I do not speak for my employer. > "Damn, she looked a lot cuter in the bar..." -- Chris Rioux > (He may be one of my coworkers, but he doesn't speak for them either) > > > > >

25 years, 1 month

Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer

by dastar＠siconic.com

Comments please! Finding Vintage Computers - A Primer by Sellam Ismail sellam(a)vintage.org http://www.vintage.org 1st Edition - May 15, 2000 This primer is intended to give you ideas that will help you find vintage computers in and around your general vicinity. It was written to aid the many frustrated collectors who believe they have exhausted their local sources and still cannot find any old computers. Well, I assure you this is not the case. Old computers can be found in a lot of places that you did not consider. Keep these principles in mind when determining what to pay for old computers: * some people are just happy to have their old machine go to a new home * the bigger the machine, the less money it generally sells for * for some large machine, people are sometimes willing to pay you to haul it away Flea Markets/Ham Fests/Car Boot Sales We begin with the most obvious place to find vintage computers, the Flea Market/Ham Fest/Car Boot Sale (I will refer to them as "flea markets"). Flea markets can occur with frequent regularity or just occasionally, from several times a week to perhaps once a year. Usually they are comprised of people trying to get rid of their old junk. At the more general flea market, finding old computers is usually a challenge. Most of what you will find is the sort of junk that you already have stored away in your garage, basement, attic, closet, etc. But occasionally you will find old computers, and the advantage here is that most collectors won't bother with these sorts of flea markets, so the competition is low. You will be more likely to find vintage computers at Ham Fests as most radio guys (and gals) are also computer users. Many Hams were early adopters of microcomputers during the mid- to late-70's and as such are likely targets for finding some of the more interesting early micros such as S-100 bus machines as well as mini-computers. You can generally expect to pay prices in the range of $5 - $50 for most vintage computers that show up at these events. Occasionally stuff can be had for free, since the seller just wants to get rid of it, or you can wait until after the event is over and head over to the trash bins where you will find all the stuff the sellers didn't want to take back home with them. Haggling at flea markets is mandatory. Never pay more for an old computer than you have to. Learning how to haggle properly would take a whole other primer. The way to get good at it is to just go out and do it. If you don't find any vintage computers at Ham Fests, don't get discouraged. The fact is they just haven't found you. It might be well worth your while to rent a space at the next event and put up a table of your own. Display signs indicating you are interested in old computers. A lot of the people attending the ham fests as buyers also have old computers that they'd like to get rid of and you will meet many people this way. The price of a space is usually not very high, perhaps from $10-$50. To find Flea Markets/Ham Fests/Car Boot sales in your area, look in the classified ads section of your local paper or in the small classified periodicals, or check the upcoming events listings for your local fairgrounds as a lot of times those are venues for large flea markets. Better yet, hop on over to http://www.openair.org/ which is an excellent online resource for finding flea markets and ham fests in your area worldwide. Thrift/Charity Shops Another good place to find vintage computers is at your local Thrift (or Charity) store. Almost every city has at least one. The bigger cities will have many. The most common ones (in the United States anyway) are The Salvation Army, Goodwill and St. Vincent de Paul. In my experience, these are NOT good stores to find old computers. Usually they take all incoming computers and sell them at special sales. Or, if old computers do make it into the store, the pieces to it are usually not all together, or in some cases the parts to one computer may have been scattered across multiple stores. The better thrift stores to look in for old computers are the stand-alone stores or the for-profit chains. They usually won't sort through and separate the items and so you're more likely to find old computers at these. Prices vary from ridiculously cheap to just plain ridiculous. Some stores have no concept of a computer being obsolete. To them, a computer is an expensive, fancy device that is worth lots of money, and they price them accordingly. Others don't differentiate between an old computer and an old toaster, and will sell computer items at the same prices they sell the rest of their appliances, in many cases for only a few dollars or less. Some stores try to price computer items separately but can't tell the difference between modern day PC components and old computer parts, and as a result you'll see vintage machines selling for the same price as the more modern machines. Some thrift stores will slash the price of their items for every week that it does not sell. If something is priced too high you might wait until the following week and buy it at half off! Ask the store what their policy is. While you're at it, don't be afraid to make an offer on an item you are interested in. Haggling at thrift stores is OK. To find thrift stores, look in your local phone book, or check the web. Many of the larger institutions now have websites that will direct you to the nearest store. Search for them online. Electronics Surplus Shops If you can find them, electronics surplus shops are great places to find vintage computers. The prices are generally high at these stores but haggling is sometimes acceptable. It's always best to just ask. Look in your local phone book to find electronics surplus shops in your area. You also might want to try looking for general electronics repair shops, as they may have old computers laying about their shop as well. Colleges/Universities/Schools Schools are great places to find aging computers. Oft times an old machine is tucked away in a closet or basement and forgotten. Many schools have periodic rummage sales to sell off obsolete equipment. Ask the school administration if they have these sales and mark your calendar for the next one. You might also want to try contacting the teachers and professors directly as they may have knowledge of old computers that are no longer in use. The best ones to approach would be in the physical sciences departments: chemistry, physics, biology, etc. Of course, the Computer Science department would also be a good choice. Auctions An auction is sometimes a good place to find vintage computers, especially if it is an auction to liquidate the assets of a company that used computers in its operations. Look in the classified ads of your local paper to find out about upcoming auctions and estate sales in your area. Of course you can also try the online auctions. eBay is, of course, the most popular of the auction sites for finding vintage computers. However, competition is fierce, and as such prices are generally higher than you would pay at other venues. Bargains can be found by performing searches that locate items not listed in the categories specifically for old computers. Scrap/Salvage Yards If you're looking for "Old Iron", your most likely chance of finding it are in scrap yards. The precious metal content of big mainframes unfortunately sends many old computers to a frightful end. Try to find scrap yards in your area and ask the owner if they ever get old computers in. If they do, try to strike up a deal with them. Tell them you will pay them some amount over scrap value (for instance 10%) for any old machines they haul in. This will make it worth their while to work with you. Be forewarned: many scrap yard owners can be mean & nasty, and legends abound of various ones destroying perfectly good vintage equipment of all sorts either because you offered too low a price or just because you look funny. They are notoriously rude and generally just unstable people. Of course these are just generalizations, and your situation may vary. Classified Ads Of course you can always try searching the classified ads of your local paper, as some vintage computers do occasionally show up in the listings. Of course, don't neglect the Usenet for-sale newsgroups. Better yet, check for items listed for sale in the many newsgroups dedicated to specific computer platforms. Let Them Come to You One way to find vintage computers is to let them find you. Try placing an ad in the classifieds section of your local paper. Be sure to specify exactly what you are looking for to avoid getting a flood of false leads. In the very least, include a cut-off year indicating you are not interested in any computers manufactured after that year. Better yet, try posting an ad in one of the many Usenet newsgroups dedicated to older platforms. Or you can try posting an ad in one of your local for-sale newsgroups. The Traveling Nerd If you take frequent business trips to other areas, try scheduling time during your trip to search out old computers. The areas you visit may be fertile, untapped grounds for finding vintage machines. Upon arrival, check the phone book for any of the various sources listed above. You may also want to try to time your trips to coincide with any large flea markets or ham fests in the area and arrange to stay during the weekend so you can attend the event. Once you've acquired vintage computers whilst away from home, you'll soon realize you have to get them home somehow. This is not a problem. Most airlines allow two check-in bags (up to 65 pounds each) and two carry-on bags per passenger. Find a sturdy box and some packaging material and pack your findings, then check them in at the airport as your baggage. You can find boxes and packaging materials at a local mailing center, or at moving vehicle rental locations such as U-Haul. Pack your box well! Luggage is designed to absorb the abuse that the luggage handlers inflict upon it. Boxes are generally not. Use as much packing material as possible and pack it tight. If taking items back with you on the plane is not feasible, you can always just have the stuff shipped back to you at home by using your preferred shipping carrier (i.e. UPS, Fedex, etc.) Where Else? Finally, some other resources to try in your quest for vintage computers include: - Hi-tech companies in your local area, especially ones that have been around for a while and may have accumulated old machines - Local utilities (power, water, telephone) sometimes have surplus sales, and also have rather large dumpsters (skips) that are worth checking occasionally - Other collectors who are retiring from the hobby - Family, friends and neighbors and their family, friends and neighbors...tell everyone you know you collect old computers! Finally, if you live in an area where all of the above resources are either lacking or have consistently turned up nary a floppy drive, it might be worth your while to plan a weekend road trip to a major city nearby. Try to do research in advance to find out where all the thrift stores, flea markets and surplus shops are, and plot out an efficient route. Bring along a sizable vehicle, lots of money, and preferably a companion to keep you occupied during the boring long stretches. Above all, remember this: collecting vintage computers is an exercise in resourcefulness! Happy Collecting! Copyright (c) 2000 Vintage Computer Festival Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... Coming soon: VCF 4.0! VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details!

25 years, 1 month

Private jets was Re: Finding Classic Computers

by allisonp＠world.std.com

>$69KUSD. It's lives in Tasmania, and did pylon racing there. Supposed >to be cheaper to own and operate than a piston engined warbird. Makes >sense, especially with the high octane stuff getting hard to find and >very expensive. Jet fuel is cheap in comparison. The cost of fuel is a red herring. the lower cost of jets is in initial cost and cheaper parts. the cost for fuel is out of sight as most of them were older less efficient engines that could easily eat 4-800pph at ground idle (600pph =100usgallons/hr) and inflight numbers can dwarf this. Piston planes are like older computers, rarer and need more technical savy to use an maintain. Parts are not cheap, hard to find and people that know them well scarce. the upside is 75gph(imperial) of hard to find Green gas (130 octane) for a P51. Right now local prices for 100LL gas is $2.25! Allison

25 years, 1 month

L 0400, Another weird DEC card

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Can anayone id this DEC card? It's not listed in the DEC field guide. It's a large card with metal extractors and a metal rib in the outside edge. The number "L 0400" is stamped in the outside rib. It measures roughly 16 x 12 1/2". It has eight AM2901 bit slice processors and twelve AM 9122 high speed static RAMS on it. There are three large card edge connectors on it. I posted a picture at "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/misc/l0400.jpg". Joe

25 years, 1 month

Software rental, "trusted computing", etc. (was Re: Is this for real -- a new C64/128)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

>Unfortunately, though Bill Gates is not in the same camp with him, the >billionaire CEO seems to think the public would benefit by paying for the >hardware and the software more or less forever. I'm not in agreement with Well remember the "users" in his world view rips him off. >Just in case, however, you'd best not dispose of that old reliable hardware >and software . . . it doesn't take up much space . . . You bet. An aside, I've worked with "thin" clients and they need to be resource rich as network bandwidth is a fuel that makes them run instead of a local disk. So swapping over the net is not workable. After all you need gigabit eithernet to come close to DMA66 IDE disk performance! Sounds like the old days, central computers and smart terminals. Allison

25 years, 1 month

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test-drb May 2000