Before you flame me about this e-mail, read this disclaimer: what is in this
may be construed as heresy to the religion of this mailing list. I'm not
being heretical. I am a very curious person, and I like to deal with
machines, sometimes even build my own. Below are my observations of society
at large, and the explanations which fit. It does not reflect on classic
computer collecting and other hobbies to which you may be partial.
Original message from Bruce Lane:
> 1). The "PC Revolution." The advent of PCs did a lot to bring cheap
>computing power into the hands of home users. The problem here is that
>consumer pressure pushed PCs from well-built reliable systems into cheesy
>'commodity' electronics that could be quickly and easily mass-produced.
You mean, "it pushed companies". Home users used IMSAIs, PETs, Apple ][s,
TRS-80s, and other cheesy, easily mass-produced machinery, and before that
they simply didn't use anything.
> Why? Because those who might have gotten into the field as a hobby settled
>for buying consumer-grade crap off-the-shelf, no matter how cheesily it
>might have been built, instead of modifying existing equipment, or building
>their own device.
Well, consider that at a certain time, building computers was a trend. A
lot of people did it, a lot of people enjoyed it. Now, certain other
computer-related things are trendy, and a lot of people do them and enjoy
them. I don't think that this can be blamed on the PC revolution, I think it
should be considered the natural flow of things. By the same token, a lot of
people now work on Web design. This will lessen when web design has evolved
to a formulaic, mechanical task (it's already happening). Cheesy
consumer-grade crap cannot be built on a kitchen table these days. Nobody
would build a PCI VGA card when one can be bought for a lower price.
> 2). Schools: The labels of 'geek,' 'nerd,' and other such epithets have
>been flying around our public school system for decades, along with a
>social climate that, for reasons I've still not figured out, seems to
>actively discourage curiousity, hands-on engineering skills, and pursuit of
>interests in the physical sciences.
For one thing, don't start blaming the problems of your hobby on public
schools. Secondly; I haven't heard those labels at my school, mostly because
they're not used. They're not used because it's no longer reasonable to BE a
geek. Sir Lancelot was quite useful in his age, but if he came into an army
recruitment center today, people would see him as Don Quixote. His approach
is no longer valid.
The fact that curiosity is discouraged is very true, and a very important
point. The reason why is a blend. Most kids haven't a clue why they're
forced to learn what they learn, and they say that they'll never need it
again. When they become teachers, therefore, they have no idea why they're
teaching what they teach. And so, when a student displays curiosity, the
teacher sees it as his job not to harvest curiosity, but to make sure that
the student is learning what he's supposed to, just for the sake of learning
(I do speak from experience). When I have seen a piece of equipment which I
wanted to know more about in my school's science lab, the teachers often
display a strong desire to chase me out of the lab, or the entire school if
it's after school hours.
Of course, from a social viewpoint, this has an excellent use: it keeps
people in power, it keeps corporations making money, without a whole lot of
challenge. This has (or so I've heard) been different during the space race
days, when it was necessary to have as many scientists as possible working
on the rockets.
>OK, I've run a bunch of tests the last few hours while writing this up (and
>spending a lot of the time with the troubles at work). I have found one
>setting on the RQDX3 that I'm not sure about. Should I have the LUN set,
>and if so to what? Actually in this case identifying the jumpers to jumper
>might be helpful, as I'm using a scan of the pages dealing with the RQDX3,
>and don't have actual doc's on it. What I do have isn't clear at all about
>LUN's. I think I should either not have it set, or set it to 4 or 8,
>but....
Some operating systems will insist that unit numbers on one MSCP controller
not duplicate those found on another. RSTS/E is picky about this, but RT-11
isn't - you can start the unit numbers from wherever you want.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
>The thing really wierd about this system, and one of the main reasons I
>call it a mutant beast is the following:
>
>Controller CSR Vector Purpose
>Viking QDT 172150 154 Both Hard Drives are on this board
>WQESD 160334 150 Bootstrap (that's all it does)
>RQDX3 160354 144 RX50
There's no real need for RT-11 to know about the existence of the WQESD,
if there aren't any drives there. I'd do a SET DU:CSR2=160354 and
map any other ports to unused CSR's and see if that helps.
If you ever want to get rid of your WQESD, let me know - I *love* them -
they're wonderfully configurable controllers, and particularly good under
RT-11 as you can get 8 bootable OS's per drive.
>After one minute, I get the following:
> @134606 ...
>I think it's always at 134606, but the minds a little fuzzy at the moment,
Which monitor - FB? XM? SJ?
If you do a SHOW MEM (on a running system, clearly!) where does 134606
fall?
Which version of RT-11? RT-11 5.3 had some seriously screwy problems with
the DU driver in some situations, and the early 5.4's had some
serious difficulties. 5.4G isn't so bad, but not as good as 5.5 or later.
>I'm working on this while working on problems at work, and it's just a
>little late. Anyone have any ideas? My plan is to normally have DU7: set
>to PART=3 of UNIT=1, and only switch it to the RX50 when I need to use a
>floppy drive.
Are you running any foreground jobs simultaneously? TCP/IP, maybe? Does
the crash happen if you don't start up the foreground jobs?
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
<I don't know of one on the net. After a lot of searching, the guy I got
<the
Check WWW.IMSAI.NET he's trying to get schematics up. so far he only
has a few.
If not put in a search for burskys book.
<IMSAI from found his schematics. We have a scanner at work. I'll see
<if I can get a good scan of it this week and email it to you.
Also get it to FF (imsai.net) for posting.
Allison
The Codar Clock board has a jumper to turn the battery power on and off for
the board. What good is this? Is this just a way to save the battery life
when the board isn't in a system?
Is the board any good without the batteries? It doesn't seem to be, but...
Considering I've no idea how ancient the batteries are, they amazingly
enough function well enough for me to be able to turn the system off for a
short period of time and back on. Not sure if they're strong enough for
longer periods.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
I practically grew up with the surplus market. I've been buying and
selling stuff related to it for nearly 20 years. I'd like to take a moment
and add my own thoughts to the thread.
Bear in mind that said thoughts are the product of late-night ramblings
after a long day. Take them however you please, or ignore them. I won't
mind either way.
I hate to say it, but these days it all comes down to money. Many of the
real 'tinkerers' of years past are gone, and some of those tinkerers, I'm
convinced, ran (or helped to run) surplus stores during earlier (and, IMO,
somewhat happier) times. Now, greed is running rampant, and its not limited
to the surplus field either.
Anyway... back in the 70's and early 80's, deals that most of us would
consider pretty darn good were relatively easy to come by in both computing
and military surplus hardware. It was not at all uncommon for dealers to
help out folks they knew were truly interested, even if it meant selling
something intact for a little less than they might have been able to get if
they scrapped it out.
During the late 80's to now, that mindset seemed to undergo a radical
change. Surplus stuff was, and is, still available, but prices have shot
through the roof in many cases, while the variety of stuff, and the quality
thereof, have declined significantly.
I blame this mainly on two things: The "PC Revolution" and the prevalent
attitudes in our public school system.
1). The "PC Revolution." The advent of PCs did a lot to bring cheap
computing power into the hands of home users. The problem here is that
consumer pressure pushed PCs from well-built reliable systems into cheesy
'commodity' electronics that could be quickly and easily mass-produced.
Such mass production and cheap availability removed much of the incentive
folks once had to learn about basic electronics, digital circuitry, etc.
This means demand for certain types of surplus, such as component parts and
some types of test gear, slacked off.
Why? Because those who might have gotten into the field as a hobby settled
for buying consumer-grade crap off-the-shelf, no matter how cheesily it
might have been built, instead of modifying existing equipment, or building
their own device.
In short: Somewhere along the line, quality, serviceability,
functionality, and longevity became less important than cosmetic appearance
and ease of operation. Surplus places are often choked with equipment that
was never designed to last more than a couple of years.
2). Schools: The labels of 'geek,' 'nerd,' and other such epithets have
been flying around our public school system for decades, along with a
social climate that, for reasons I've still not figured out, seems to
actively discourage curiousity, hands-on engineering skills, and pursuit of
interests in the physical sciences.
Fewer people in the sciences means fewer would-be engineers and
technicians. This also means fewer people who are likely to want to tinker
with anything other than "politically correct" technology (again, PCs,
because they're often plug-and-pray).
Where I'm going with this: Demand for 'commodity' surplus (PC parts)
shoots on past demand for equipment that may be more reliable, or more
rewarding as far as gaining a virtually free technical education goes, but
that actually requires some degree of technical skill to repair or use.
I believe these attitudes have spawned a new generation of surplus dealers
who, in many cases, know darn little about what they may have except how
much they can make off it if they scrap it, or sell the parts to another
reseller. Greed is, unfortunately, running rampant, and many good machines
have suffered, and likely will continue to suffer, as a result.
The best possible thing I think we can all do is keep rescuing what you
can. Keep educating those who are curious about what you do, why you do it,
and why those who are curious should be interested in tech history. If you
meet up with someone who shows interest in the field, point them in a good
direction to develop it!
The worst possible thing I think any of us can do is alienate the very
people who have access to "classic" equipment, and the power to decide
what's done with it. This includes spewing vitriol at dealers via E-mail or
in person, or treating what any of us might consider a "dumb" question from
a curious youngster or adult as just that. As has been said before, "The
only truly stupid question is the one that you keep to yourself."
There are, and will always be, exceptions. The fellow who brought out a
perfectly usable piece of gear, only to beat it to bits with a sledgehammer
in front of the buyer, should be shown no mercy whatsoever. There's just no
excuse for wanton destruction or waste in the name of spite. People who
show little interest in a system other than "Can it run Windows?" may be
beyond help.
HOWEVER... I would not be sitting here now and typing this had it not been
for several very wise and patient people who inspired me to pursue
electronics as both a hobby and career. If I can, within my lifetime,
inspire even one other person to follow a similar course, and to fight back
against peer pressure, I'll be a happy camper.
Keep the peace(es).
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our
own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
> Is there a scan of the IMSAI hardware manual online anywhere?
Uh, "The Hardware Manual" doesn't seem to exist. There are
manuals for the individual components by the board. I now
have originals for the front panel (CPA), the power supply, the
8085 CPU board (MPU-B), and one of the floppy controllers
(DIO-C). It looks like the imsai.net guy is trying to put stuff up.
I'll scan what I have as I get the time and access to the scanner
and send it to him.
Bill Sudbrink
Is there a scan of the IMSAI hardware manual online anywhere?
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0!
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 08/17/99]
In a message dated 8/21/99 9:51:14 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
aknight(a)mindspring.com writes:
> In spite of the pros/cons about the lawyer who turned
> over his Altair for a WinPC, one good thing (I think)
> that came out of this contest is publicity/awareness regarding
> the preservation of classics. Case in point is that
> when I got home last night and finally had a chance to
> read yesterday's local paper, in the business section there was
> an article about the Dell contest and the museum, including a photo
> of one of the curator (David Weil) trying to bring up a Commodore PET.
> While I wasn't surprised to hear about the contest & museum
> on the 'net, I was quite surprised to read about it in a
> local paper here in central North Carolina (right there next
> to the news about Red Hat). It was an Associated Press article,
> so it is bound to have appeared in other papers nationwide.
>
> FWIW, the article says that the museum has 200 "pieces", including
> a 360 mainframe, "the KIM Homebrew computer, a kit which sold for
> $25 ..." (I wonder if they dropped a zero), and a "Royal
> Precision Vacuum Tube Computer" - described as being built in
> 1963, with 113 vacuum tubes (sounds like a small number to me),
> drom memory, disk, & paper tape reader. The article also said
> there was some kind of storage disk from 1965 that was the
> size of a tractor-trailer tire, holding 2.5 Mbytes, and had
> to be sandblasted to be erased. (Huh???).
>
> Anyhow, this kind of awareness is a good thing, IMO.
>
well, awareness of old computers IS good, but like any hobby, once the
speculators get involved, it's not a hobby anymore. eventually (and
unfortunately) once the general populace mistakenly thinks that ANY old
computer is worth hundreds or thousands of dollars it will be hard to find
anything collectable cheaply. i'm trying to get a complete mac plus with the
original boxes from my neighbor, but she's got that mindset and probably wont
sell it for any realistic price although i try to downplay any investment
value in computers.
> Someone asked me for help with his IMSAI box, including the front panel
with
> which you've recently done battle. Do you have a schematic available in
> some machine-readable form? I'd like to help this guy but it's a
bootstrap
> situation. Until at least one or two things are functioning, you're
working
> blind.
Yea, tell me about it!
> If you could send or point me to a machine-readable schematic of this FP,
> I'd be better able to encourage this fellow. I'd rather not foist him
off
> on you.
I don't know of one on the net. After a lot of searching, the guy I got
the
IMSAI from found his schematics. We have a scanner at work. I'll see
if I can get a good scan of it this week and email it to you.
Bill Sudbrink
