<> Since the quote is from my post why not step away from ad hominin
<> commentary.
<
<If you wish to be singled out, then fine. There are many on this list
<with the same attitude, so it more or less applies to lots of people. The
<attitude is one of elitism (sp?) - that our little circle of collectors
<is far and away the best place for all of our machines, and that if you
<are not in the circle, you are trash not worth of even the most common box
I prefer to speak for myself only.
If I resemble that, then there is a great misunderstanding. If anything
I've passed on a great deal of material usually free or at prices so low
as to reflect a disregard profit.
But hey at least were talking about it.
<Put yourself if the shoes of some guy from zdnet or Dell - that quote
<is basically a direct slam against how well corporate institutions treat
<historical artifacts. Dell and zdnet happened to be be "in the wrong
<place at the wrong time" - and their names were dragged around a bit.
Since the conversation was in the context of their seeking I can see
possible confusion. No direct slams were intended, however they were
misconstrued. Maybe because I have a realistic attitude about business.
Even business do things they don't like or wish to do.
<It seems that the DEC U.S. collection turned TC"M" is just about the only
<massive failure, and even then, DEC wins back a lot of points for the DEC
<Australia collection (now under independent control). Look at some of the
<successes - Westinghouse, Motorola, IBM (for a time). There are many more
<smaller ones, too - U.S. Robotics even had a very small exhibit (they
<still do, even after the 3com buyout). Most of these corporate museums
<are SERIOUS about what they do, and frankly, put us to shame when it
<comes to how well they treat their holdings (how many of us keep out
<goodies in climate controlled rooms, stored or displayed with dignity,
<completely cataloged for researchers, handled with cotton gloves, and
<restored and operated according to all of the rules of thumb for museums?)
This is a good thing. No, few of us do the kid gloves. Likely I offend
many because I actually run them, use them and occasionally modify them.
<The problem is that some of those "what if"s tend to be rather
<offensively written, often using blanket statements that immediately put
<people in a defensive position. Nobody likes that.
Yep, somethimes they also have to look at the concern and understand it
even if poorly written. For example one my worries is what happens if the
company falls on hard times, collections have costs like storage or people
and if a company falls on hard times...could that be the first to go?
Have they provided for continuence? The successes exist to say that it
does happen. But, I ask what outside influences were ther to make this
happen.
<No, I have never heard you lash out at the scrappers, but many others
<have (that is why the original post was split up - same concept from two
<different people). There have been a great number of posts badmouthing
<the scrappers in the past, and yesterday, another one came up.
Scrappers is business. In the past I've used them to get metal stock
and the like for bargan prices compared to dealers. Still that does mean
pay a fair price. Like the guy with the smashed radio I had to learn what
that means, however my father was one to mediate my stupdity then so WE
the scrapper and I both got what we wanted. I know.
<And, no, scrappers can make a lot of money off of the gold. The average
<desktop PeeCee contains 2 to 9 dollars worth at today's price. Obviously,
<the big systems are the cash cows.
There is value, for effort and work. Like anything they are diamonds in
the rough and recycling the materials is a necessary thing.
<Now here we go again. Calling this imaginary person a "dope" is really
<bad form. Does he deserve to be called a "dope", simply because he is
<working 55 hours a week, and his boss tells him to get rid of the old
No excuse both ways. However waste is a general thing. In this day of
recycling maybe it fits.
<system because they need the floorspace (and sometimes power)? I have
<been in this situation many times, working in computer rooms around the
<country. I did not have a few hours to devote to trying to find equipment
<good homes, even if it was on my own time. Pretty much the best one can
<do is put out a post to the list or the newsgroups, and hope someone can
<fit _into_ the schedule.
Ah, but you did! There is lies the difference.
<I figured that word would come up. No, you can say whatever you like to
<others, individual or corporate. Just be sure you know what the
<consequences are, and that they may effect you, a group, or the whole
<collecting scene as a whole. I, for one, think that being group labelled an
<"elitist whiner" is not a good thing. "Respectable collector" sounds much
<nicer, but I think the former label is what we are headed towards due to
<the attitudes of many on this list.
Well oh, I see. I'm very uncomfortable with that whole presentation.
Maybe you need to reread and think what you have said over as well with
consideration of your own views. From the otherside of the glass it sounds
no better.
I'd think I fit neither. I'm a used hardware user. Very little of what
I've gathered is "collection" much of it is my old stuff that is sentimental
more than historically important. Then again maybe why they are
historically important. Museums and collectors are apparently the other
guy. Like I've said before, much of what I have is satisfying a wish to
run and tinker with systems I could never afford when new. Different
mindset I'd guess.
One additional point. Museums of my past were sterile plases where don't
touch was the operating word, glass cases, rails to keep distance. I
understand why. However, this is emotional so stay with me, computers
especially old ones through the early 70s were always behind the glass.
Many people were held at bay by the resulting priesthood and classism
that resulted. Only the privileged got to touch or run them. Keeping
(making?) the older ones touchable is an important task that coperate
sponsers may or may not understand. Just a thought.
Allison
I have just 'taken delivery' of a big Heathkit Analog Computer..
not the small EC-1.. the big 15 opamp job.
The docs that are with it are just the operaor's guide. I
therefore will begin a search for the assembly manual and possibly
any theory of operation manuals, circuit diagrams, program set-ups, etc.
I think these are not too plentiful, but I will perform due
diligence and see if Heath can be of any help. Many times they still
have old manuals around and will copy them (for a fee).
In the meantime, if anyone on The List has any info pertaining to
this computer, it would help me get it back on the air.
Finally... a computer that glows in the dark... 2 K3WL D00DZ!!!
Cheers
John
OK, it looks like I figured out why I've not been able to get the RX50's on
my PDP-11/73 working, dead RQDX3. Of course it's my only one that can
handle RX33's, thankfully I'm more interested in RX50's.
Anyway, I've got a problem, and part of it might be what a mutant beast
this system is. If I have DU7: set to one of the drives on the RX50 the
system crashes after 1 minute (I actually timed this, and it was so close
to 1 minute it was disturbing). I've not tried any other combo's of
setting the RX50 in the system, but don't see why that would matter.
The thing really wierd about this system, and one of the main reasons I
call it a mutant beast is the following:
Controller CSR Vector Purpose
Viking QDT 172150 154 Both Hard Drives are on this board
WQESD 160334 150 Bootstrap (that's all it does)
RQDX3 160354 144 RX50
DU0: is set UNIT=0, PART=0, PORT=0 (Boot Disk)
DU1: is set UNIT=1, PART=0, PORT=0 (Backup Boot Disk)
DU2: is set UNIT=0, PART=1, PORT=0
DU3: is set UNIT=0, PART=2, PORT=0
DU4: is set UNIT=1, PART=1, PORT=0
DU5: is set UNIT=1, PART=2, PORT=0
DU6: is set UNIT=0, PART=3, PORT=0
DU7: is set UNIT=0, PART=0, PORT=2
After one minute, I get the following:
.
134606
@
I think it's always at 134606, but the minds a little fuzzy at the moment,
I'm working on this while working on problems at work, and it's just a
little late. Anyone have any ideas? My plan is to normally have DU7: set
to PART=3 of UNIT=1, and only switch it to the RX50 when I need to use a
floppy drive.
In the mean time, I think I'll have to give that Codar clock a try.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
grad student looking for old but working VMS system - (read - inexpensive)
If anyone can point me in the direction of a microvax or VAXStation please
let me know...........
thanks.....
mark
-------
ICQ 40439199
http://www2.msstate.edu/~mja2
I put a few digital camera photos of a old braille terminal (Feb 1977 vintage)
in a directory at http://www.cs.umn.edu/~lemay/braille
These are 1280x960 jpg images, not at the highest image quality setting
for the camera. Most of the photos are of the interior of the unit, ie,
the power supply and the card cage. The card cage is made of wood.
I'm not quite sure what to do with this unit. There probably werent many
braille terminals made in the 70's, and like most things, they probably
were disposed of when they became obsolete. Maybe this should be donated
to a computer museum.
Of course, I wrote down some chip numbers and such, and promptly lost
the sheet of paper I wrote it down on.. I think it was made by
Triformation Systems Inc. Model LED-120. The grey socketed chip
was a F 8003 or was that 8002? The 3 chips with white stickers on
them are the same chip number, probably some sort of prom. The large
black chip, possibly a cpu of some sort, i forget the number exactly..
Trying to read it from the photo, it looks like 6503N, from i think
national semiconductor (it has a dual ~ followed by a / as some sort
of identifiying symbol).
Well, hopefull someone is interested in seeing this.
-Lawrence LeMay
lemay(a)cs.umn.edu
Well, Thanks to an idea that the RT-11 "Software Support Manual" gave me,
it looks like I solved my problem. I copied the DU device handler to DA,
and set the CSR's and Vectors such that DU is the Viking, and DA is the
RQDX3. It has now been 30 minutes since I looked at the floppy sitting in
the RX50 and the system hasn't crashed. This has the added benifit of
allowing me to have DU0-DU7 for the Hard Drive partitions and DA0 & DA1 for
the floppies.
Cool, can't decide if I want to takle adding in some Serial Ports, or work
on getting the DEC Pro380 up and running. I highly recommend working on
Classic Computer projects as a method of staying awake, nice to be using
them to stay awake instead of loosing sleep because of them :^)
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
I've been cleaning up and found a DOS 3.3 disk with a copy of my Cromemco
BIOS source code, including the Turbo PASCAL disk formatter! (Talks to a
Cromemco 16FDC) Enjoy, the page with the link is here:
http://www.home.mcmanis.com/~cmcmanis/
--Chuck
From: William Donzelli <aw288(a)osfn.org>
<There seem to be some foolish people on this list, judging from two of
<today's posts. Kai made some great points a while back in his rant, so I
No it was just a rant. While the MITS box is collectable and interesting
in many ways my comments about it were somehow extended to the IMSAI and
those trying to manufacture it again. Fools, you say, victims of partial
reading I say.
<will not repeat them, but I would like to add one - that of "public
<relations". The two awful posts in question show that there is a problem
<brewing.
yes and right here in river city...
<The two posts were basically concerned with dealing with those people
<outside of this list. The first post was about the zdnet Altair possibly
<going into "corperate hands and from there it can be lost, damaged, ...".
Since the quote is from my post why not step away from ad hominin
commentary.
Since reading out of presented contects is going on... First: I worry
that material will be lost. Never did I say dell was a bad guy, they may
be offended themseleves by other bad guys actions.
<It seems this person (along with quite a few others) does not think too
This person has a name! Disagreement is acceptable and discussion over it
as well but sidewise swipes are not.
<highly of corporate institutions, even though quite a few have established
<(or at least made an honest effort) museums and protection for their
<historic holdings. In places where politics plays serious games -
Yes and yes, some very good, some are failures. DEC made an effort with
what lead up to TCM is Boston... what happend after DEC stopped funding
them is where matters apprently went awry. We should ask why.
<listen in on this list. I know for a fact that some of the higher echelon,
<including the President, of ANS (my former employer) were quite interested
<in the fates of some of the old NSFnet gear. If I had made some less than
<friendly remarks about ANS to this list (or anywhere public, really), I
<think the supply of old networking goodies that RCS was being given would
<have dried up in an instant. Now I do not know what kind of corporate
<support VCF gets, if any, but it could go away instantly as well, with
<just a few short posts. Of course, with all of the Microsoft and IBM
<bashing that goes on here, it would be a miracle if any support ever came
<from that pair ever again.
While there is the sound of truth in this I think this is a gross over
reaction. While your comments on political care are warrented, that does
not override someone elses personal opinion or concerns. The latter be
more important. No one was accused of doing anything bad, only concerns
of "what if".
<what my local scrapper does . [tomb raiding for gold]. . .". Now these
Interesting juxtapostion of two comments from two people that see things
differently. My Tomb raiders was NOT aimed at scrappers, I doubt they
make much of the gold fingers and the aluminum. I was aiming at the those
that break up rare systems for pure cash and little care of historical
value.
FYI: those that collect and trade for cash value are not hostile to
collecting. People rarely toss out something that has value. So to me
while a $40,000 Apple 1 is totally out of reach, it may convince someone
that the poly-88 in their basement is better served as collectors fodder
rather than the bottom of the trash bin.
<himself. Now if you go into a scrapyard screaming "bloody murderer", you
<can bet that the PDP-8/e you have been eyeing will be loaded into the
<Taiwan bound container first, probably on its face. Once again, just for
<spite.
No doubt true. the scrapper is doing a job, the dope that dropped it
there is the one that deserves the slap. But then again business has
priorities. Where we can help is to make it easy, maybe even a small
value to those that might otherwise scrap systems.
<Yes, this is politics. Just remember that its a good idea to have friends
<in high places. Having enemies up there does no good to anyone, but with
<a little responsibility, is easily avoided.
True, however your comments sound much like censorship. People don't like
that and most companies do not either.
Now, the original topic. DEll has gotten a few hits on their page from
me over the last day or so, while it's unlikely I'd buy a new PC from
them or anyone else for varied reasons none relecting on their products,
it was and informational visit. Besides, I happen to like dell, I have
three of their older 386/486 machines. One of which was salvaged from
the trash completely functional. Full circle, eh!
Allison
Just doing some more testing, as I wanted to see if I could successfully
retrieve data from floppies with the system wanting to crash after a
minute. I discovered something REALLY ODD. It crashes after a minute, BUT
that is a minute after there has been no activity with the RX50.
This is so wierd, however, if I can't find a solution, I think this is a
behavior that I can actually live with. Besides since it sounds like this
might be a problem with the version of RT-11 I'm running, I suspect I'm
stuck with it.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
