If this is a ? thats been dealt with before I joined the list my
apologies.
I repeatedly come across personal and confidential information on
discarded computers. I sit and shake my head in shock. Lawyers seem to
be the worst. I have considered contacting the original owners and
educating them about practicing safe hex but, especially in the case of
lawyers and women, don't want to have them freak out and think I'm being
weird and calling the police. On the other hand I feel that I should do
something. In the end I just format the drives and forget about it.
Has anyone experienced contacting an original owner? What was the
response. This is something that I've not read about in the media as Y2K
and Hackers get all the press but I suspect this is a bigger potential
problem.
Colan
There are two valid and conflicting points here. The first is
legal: I (not being a lawyer or anything) believe it is probably
legal to take data from any system you legally acquire. The
second is pragmatic: if people know that you do this, none of us
will ever again get any meaningful parts of a classic machine.
The ethics of the matter are another matter, but in view of the
pragmatics, that seems moot. Making use of any such data is
suicide, at least in the long-term. Even if you are ethically
impaired enough to do this, please don't admit it in public.
This list, BTW, is archived and publically available at two web
sites that I know of, and maybe others that I don't.
Cheers,
Bill.
On Sun, 30 May 1999, bluoval <bluoval(a)mindspring.com> wrote:
] Tony Duell wrote:
] > >
] > > I wasn't following this thread but here's my opinion.
] > > A buy a house and everything it contains. There just happenes to be a treasure
] > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
] > There's the first difference. In most cases you're _not_ buying a computer
] > and all the data on the hard drive.
]
] If I buy a computer w/ a hard drive, what ever data it might contain is mine also.
] The seller is/was responsable for the data on there, not the buyer. the seller
] should've deleted what he thought was sensitive information. Unless the data is
] copyrighted, I have every right to do as i please with it, which would most likely
] be erasure.
Actually, this point isn't entirely right. Most likely the software
on that disk was under license, which couldn't be legally transferred
to you even if the seller wanted to. If you really believe you own
it, try taking some not-so-terribly-old Micro$oft product from a
scrap PC, making copies and reselling them. If you really own it,
no big-company lawyers will have a thing to say about it. :-)
] > If I buy a computer and the seller says 'Here's the master disks for all
] > the software I installed, and here are the licenses which I'll help you
] > to transfer to your name', then I think it's reasonable to assume that
] > you're getting that software as well. If he says 'BTW, I've left the
] > source code to a <whatever> that I was working on on the hard disk,
] > please take a look' then, again, I have no problem in reading said source
] > code.
] >
] > That is _not_ what we're talking about.
] >
] > > map in there leading me to a pot of gold. who owns the gold? ME.
Fine. If the seller of the computer agrees to sell you the data
as well the machine itself, you own it. But when somebody sells
you a house, the contract is not likely to say "house and all pots
of gold contained therein", nor is the seller of a computer likely
to agree that you own all data he forgot/was unable to delete.
Since nobody sane would ever agree to that, you are probably on
shakey ground assuming that it was part of the sale. So knowingly
using it for profit or to the seller's detriment would probably
put you on the losing end of a lawsuit.
] > Suppose you buy a house+contents. Stuffed down the back of a chair are
] > some old personal letters, bank statements, etc. Do you really think you
] > have the moral right to publish them? I certainly don't.
]
] I wasn't talking about morals. I'd probably find the previous owner and give
] it to them, if they wanted it. otherwise I'd trash it. I have no use for old
] letters and bank statements....
]
]
] > I must admit that if I bought a computer and found some previous repaired
] > had left the schematics or a diagnostic module inside, I might be tempted
] > to keep them and make use of them. That's a far cry from personal data,
] > though.
]
] There have been many books published from people's personal data... diaries,
...
] Do you think these people would have wanted their data published by some person
] who just happened to find it in an attic, in a house he just bought? probably
] not, but historically they're priceless.
But to publish that sort of discovery before it has properly aged
would put you in the category of tabloid rather than history buff.
Still legal, *maybe*, but certainly not likely to inspire future
donations.
At 09:35 PM 5/17/99 -0700, you wrote:
>On Mon, 17 May 1999, David Williams wrote:
>
>> I suspect it will take more than an LLF. I've now notice that
>> sometimes when I power it on, it fails the startup tests and never
>> reaches a ready state. Of course maybe an LLF would fix that but
>> I don't know. I haven't been able to get it to access the catalog on
>> the drive though formatting under ProDOS now always claims to
>> work where it would fail before. The clicking sound it makes is
>> pretty loud and annoying and I'm sure a LLF won't help that. Does
>> anyone know if you used the same Apple II interface card for the 5
>> meg and 10 meg ProFILEs?
>
>Sounds like its dying. Might be time for a little home clean room to
>repair it. Go back and find the dicussion from several months back that
>talked about building a clean box.
Ok, going out on a limb here (not my first time)...
The infamous 'low level format' may indeed address the problem, but it's
not nearly as easy to do in this case as one might expect...
First: a couple of data points about the 'ProFile' drive subsystems.
1) The interface is just an over-glorified bi-directional parallel port!
(witness that to use it with a LISA, you run a straight-thru cable from the
ProFile to the parallel port on the LISA)
2) the drive in the ProFile is a 5 or 10 meg Shugart 4XX series mechanism,
but with an Apple custom logic board installed. So forget just about
everything you know about formatting hard drives...
3) you never directly address the drive in a ProFile, you issue commands to
the logic board in the ProFile, and it talks to the drive...
4) IIRC: one of the power up tests that the ProFile does (it has been a
while since I went thru Apple training on this critter) is a read test on
selected tracks on the drive. If this test fails (due to mechanical
failure or bit-rot) the drive will never come 'ready'
5) There is no inherent 'format' command in the ProFile controller logic.
To enable formatting capability you have to install a special chip
(according to rumour: a Z-80 with a piggyback EPROM) into a vacant socket
on the ProFile logic board, power up the unit and issue a special command.
(I doubt it matters what machine it is connected to at the time)
6) Running the 'format' command from ProDos (LISA office, etc...) does
little more than initialize the directory tracks in a form that ProDos (or
whatever) expects. It does no actual 'formatting' of the drive proper...
(man, where have we heard of THIS strategy before?)
Now, having said that...
It's quite possible that the problem may be little more than bit-rot due to
the degredation of the magnetic domains on the drive platters. (or it
really could be busted, but let's think good thots here) Also, power
failures during writes could honk up the drive real easily...
The real trick here however is coming up with the little format enabler
chip and the proper incantation to mumble at it!
There have been stories of people who have opened up their ProFiles and
found the previously mentioned socket occupied by the magic module, but
last time I looked in mine I was not one of the fortunate (?) ones...
The real downer in this, is that we are all likely to be impacted by this
somewhere along the way...
-jim
---
jimw(a)computergarage.org
The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
Since I have two 2117F's at home, I'll answer this one...
You wrote...
>And one of these cases where documentation can be TOO old... My one
>vintage HP catalog predates these CPUs by a couple of years. The catalog
>only lists the HP2116.
Your machines are F series, the very last of the 1000 line I believe. The
2116 is one of the first. You've got both ends of the spectrum there ;)
Bear this in mind, memory related cards go in the front card cage, i/o
related cards in the rear card cage. There is no relationship between slot1
in front and slot1 in back. In the front card cage, the top three slots must
be used for a specific card in each slot, in the remaining slots order isn't
important (there are a few exceptions to this). In the rear, order isn't
important except the slot number (octal select code) determines the
interrupt priority of the board. Some OS's in the 1000 line expect certain
cards to be in certain slots. In addition, the OS on your disks was likely
genned to expect a certain card in every slot. I'm at work at the moment, so
if there's any of the following notes I'm not sure of, email me over the
weekend when I'm at home and I can clarify.
> DCPC
Dual Channel Port Controller this is basically a card that provides two
independent DMA channels for any I/o cards in the rear panel. Must go in top
slot, front card cage. Attach ribbon cable.
> 13037 intf
The 13037 is a disk controller for 7900A, 7905, 7906, 7920, and possibly
7925 drives. Different models of the 13037 could also support HP-IB as well
as direct connect style drives. This card should go to a 5 inch tall rack
mount box which contains a microprocessor board and several interface
boards. Cables from the 13037 rack mount box then go to the drives.
> Memory Protect
This is an optional memory protect card. ISTR it has to do with handling
parity errors instead of just halting the cpu. This must go in the front
cage, second slot from the top.
> Grd true in/out
Grd true in/out is an I/o card used for line level interfacing (process
control, etc.)
> M.E.M.
This is a Memory Expansion Module. It was necessary if the machine contained
more that 64k of ram. Bear in mind that it is only usefull if the ROM's that
go with it are in the Firmware accessory board. The firmware accessory board
usually attached to the bottom cpu card and hung underneath it on the back
right. The firmware roms provided some extra instructions for memory
management (ie. setting up paging). This must go in the front cage, third
slot from the top.
> Grd true in/out
Same as above.
> 64k HSM
64k ram card.
> 12747H Microcircuit
The microcircuit interface ISTR is a 40 bit card to interface to external
TTL levels. I'll have to look this up. Might also have been used to connect
an I/O extender box, don't recall at the moment.
> 64k HSM
64k ram card.
>12747H BACI 12966A
The 12966A baci card (buffered async control interface) is an RS232 port for
you. One of the better models, actually.
> 64k HSM 12747H
another 64k ram card.
> 7970 Mag Tape 2
The 7970 mag tape 2 card isn't for a second tape drive, it's the 2nd card in
a two controller set for the 7970 tape drive.
> 64k HSM 12747H
another 64k ram card.
> 7970 Mag Tape 1
The 7970 mag tape 1 is part of a 2 card set for a 7970 1/2 tape drive. the
real number is 13181 or 13183 depending on the model 7970 it went to.
> 64k HSM
another 64k ram card.
> Line Printer
Dunno about the line printer designation, but it should be obvious. probably
gpib interface.
> 64k HSM 12747H
another 64k ram card.
> Time Base Gen
The time base generator is a card used to provide various timing circuits.
It does more than just act as a system clock, but that's the best way to
describe it. Whether a TBG card is needed depends on the OS you load and the
software features (modules) you use with it.
> Mem Contr 2102E F.E.M.
This is the main memory controller for all those 64k ram cards. there is a
ribbon cable to attach it to each 64k ram card.
> Main Logic? (under chassis)
This is the cpu card itself. Look for the firmware accessory board attached
underneath the cpu card in the back right. It holds instruction set
additions typically.
>Machine 2 Front card cage Rear card cage
>
> DCPC
same as above
> Jumper
This was used in the I/o card cage if a card was not present. It just
preserved the interrupt priority chain; normally empty non-adjacent slots
are not allowed (unless you're doing all polling mode without need for
arming the interrupts).
> Memory Protect
> I/O Buffer
> M.E.M.
all same as above
> 8 Chan Mux
I would need a part number, but sounds similar to the 12920/12921 mux
controller. Multiple serial ports for terminals, printers, etc.
> Standard Memories Bus I/O
> (256k memory)
> Standard Memories
> (256k memory)
Not familiar with these, they sound 3rd partyish to me, probably memory...
> Disc Intf 2
the second controller of a two controller set, likely a 13210. This was used
ONLY for 7900A disk drives.
> 256kw 12749H
256kw ram.
> Disc Intf 1
the first controller of a two controller set, likely a 13210. only 7900a
again.
> 256kw 12749H
256kw ram
> Mem Contr 2102E
same as above system
> BACI 12966H
same as above system
> 12821A Disc Intf
I don't recall for sure, but I *THINK* this might be for fixed head disks
(earlier than the 7900A's). 2313 I think? Ahhh.. bad memory in my brain :)
> Time Base Gen
same as above
> F.E.M.
FEM or MEM? in a card cage, I would expect it to be MEM, same as above.
Otherwise, an educated guess would be some type of firmware board.
> Main Logic? (under chassis)
same as above.
>1, 2, 3, 4
Need to look up the part number for those. Possibly PSI's (programmable
serial interface), used to hook up graphics terminals (one DB25 for
keyboard, one DB25 for display).
>I still need to find docs on this critter and the cards.
I have a virtually complete documentation set for the above, sans a few of
the cards.
>After the usual pre-launch checks, all of the (apparently) optional cards
>were removed from the card cages and the units were powered up. Curiously,
>they both act identically in that they seem to have some front panel
>function, but the CPUs seem to be hung pretty hard.
The front panel on the 21mx line is pretty straigforward. A&B are registers,
M is the memory location you want to look at, T is the contents of that
location, P is the program counter, and S is a general purpose status
register. The only thing not intuitive is that only when the T register is
displayed and you press the store switch, the M register is automatically
incremented for you (any other time you use the INC M button). Initially I
found this annoying, but it is handy. Note that the A and B registers are
memory locations 0 and 1 respectively - so they should be the same. As a
test, try clearing register a, set a bit pattern, then press store. Then set
the M register to zero, store, then look at T. It should be the same pattern
you stored in A.
Other important notes for a checkout - upon powerup, look at the very bottom
row of lights (a/b/m/t/p/s). Only one should be lit. If more of them are
lit, it indicates several different problems, the most likely of which is
memory configuration/parity error. If the machine has the power fail option,
deadness upon powerup can mean that the batteries are no longer sustaining
memory. The system disables some functions to alert you of this. There is a
way to clear this condition, but I need to check the manual when I get home.
Another thing you can try is selecting the S register, clearing all bits,
store, then set bits 6 through 11 to octal 13 (doesn't matter if there's a
card in slot 13). Press preset, then IBL. If the overflow light comes on,
nothing was loaded from ROM and you have a real problem. Otherwise... Then
point the M register to 37777 and look at the T register. Instead of the
zeros normally present on power up, you should see the contents of boot rom
loader 00 are present (hit INC M to step up). The changing pattern will tell
you it was able to load the boot loader. The 37777 memory location moves
depending on how much ram is in the system.
Finally, the 2117F should go through a powerup POST type test. Depending on
battery charge (if the power fail option is present) sometimes it can take
20 seconds sometimes 30 minutes or so, but eventually if the system is 100%
you should see the leftmost 5 bits or so on the display counting up as it
checks memory.
Since I'm at work and not at home, I'm reciting all this from memory. I
could have easily left something out or said something wrong. Feel free to
email me over the weekend on anything you have questions about.
>No odd sounds or loss of magic smoke, so an initial suspicion is a
>configuration error common to both units. The card cages only have
>specific card notations on a couple of slots, so there is the obvious
>question of proper card positioning. (no idea if the cages are a parallel
>bus or not)
The machines in question are using HSM type memory, which had a slightly
strange setup compared to the memory subsystems in the other HP systems I
also have (2113B 2109B) and work with more often. There are some real
specifics related to slots and ribbon cables in the front card cage. When I
get home I'll check how my 2117F's (which are running fine) are configured.
Jay West
Thank you for the great response. We'll be getting together soon to go over
the stuff, and we'll be contacting people directly. You all have done me
many favors over the past couple 'a years, and I want to channel at least
SOME stuff into the hands of the people who will appreciate it.
Please feel free to keep emailing wants.
oh, yeah -- I'll consider trades. Photo or modern PC equipment... Ferrarris
also considered.
P Manney
>I have a friend (Yes, Virginia, I have two friends) who's been a DEC
>repairman for many years. He now wants to get rid of the accumulated a lot
>of stuff in his barn, and has asked me to help get rid of it.
>
>I'm not sure I have the time to make a complete catalogue of all his stuff.
>Anyway, I know squat about big iron, and therefore don't know what's
>valuable to people.
>
>Please, therefore, email me with your wants -- anything from, "I'll take
>anything" to "keep an eye out for this widget". I have no idea what he
wants
>for all of this, bit I doubt he's out to gouge.
>
>manney(a)hmcltd.net
>pgphoto(a)ragemail.com
>
>P Manney
>"Y1K caused the Dark Ages."
>Thousands of discounted photo items at http://www.hmcltd.net/pgphoto
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Colan Mitchell <cdrmool(a)interlog.com>
>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
>Date: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 4:37 PM
>Subject: confidential info on old harddrives.
>
>
>>
>>If this is a ? thats been dealt with before I joined the list my
>>apologies.
>> I repeatedly come across personal and confidential information on
>>discarded computers. I sit and shake my head in shock. Lawyers seem to
>>be the worst. I have considered contacting the original owners and
>>educating them about practicing safe hex but, especially in the case of
>>lawyers and women, don't want to have them freak out and think I'm being
>>weird and calling the police. On the other hand I feel that I should do
>>something. In the end I just format the drives and forget about it.
>> Has anyone experienced contacting an original owner? What was the
>>response. This is something that I've not read about in the media as Y2K
>>and Hackers get all the press but I suspect this is a bigger potential
>>problem.
>>
>>
>>Colan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>At 02:27 AM 5/31/99 -0400, PG Manney wrote:
>>I have a friend (Yes, Virginia, I have two friends) who's been a DEC
>>repairman for many years. He now wants to get rid of the accumulated a lot
>>of stuff in his barn, and has asked me to help get rid of it.
>
>Obvious first question: Where is this barn?
Behind his house. Where else? <g> (couldn't resist that!)
In Northern Ohio, about halfway between Cleveland and Toledo. 44846 ZIP.
Tiny place called Milan.
<> Today I bought a SC/MP wirewrapped board. Does anyone know of a site with
<> data sheet? My search came up with what is known as "SC/MP II", including
I do have a massive amount of dat for the sc/mp Pmos part.
Allison
On May 30, 12:24, Allison J Parent wrote:
> Subject: Re: National SC/MP data
> <Hi all,
> <Today I bought a SC/MP wirewrapped board. Does anyone know of a site
with
> <data sheet? My search came up with what is known as "SC/MP II",
including
> <description of a "MK14" project in Practical Electronics mag. In
> <particular, the chip on my board requires an unknown neg. voltage on pin
> <40, instead of +5 Volts on the later NMOS versions. The actual part No.
is
> <ISP-8A/500D
A while ago, I found a website dealing with MK14 things at
http://members.aol.com/mk14emu/
It includes a copy of of the PE review.
> I have a working example of the inexpensive board national sold with that
> chip, 256bytes of ram and a monitor.
>
> I'd doubt there is a site with a data sheet unless someone got permission
> form National Semi to scan one.
The Introkit and the MK14 are very similar. The site I mentioned above has
part of the SC/MP data sheet, the MK14 circuit diagram and parts lists, and
programing information. Now all I need is the SC/MP chip.
Related topic: has anyone here come across a small micro called a Scrumpi,
based ob the SC/MP?
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
<What extra do you (as a software hacker) get from this chip that you
<wouldn't get from a software emulator of the Eniac running on (say) a PC?
A grade in an EE course where there is a required project to create a
system on a chip. In software 311 you do the emulator for the PC.
;)
Allison
