<An important thing to remember is that the Original IMSAI sold for almost
<$1000. SO even though a new Pentium II 400 is only $1000 with all the bell
<and whistles there is a cost savings due to selling hundres of thousands o
<the thing. An IMSAI kit maybe a few hundred or so.<
Doing an Imsai would be expsnsive as finding the parts would be costly.
Many arent made or are such low volume (100pin connector for sure) that
it isn't going to be cheap.
For example the backplane 18 slots (or was it 22) roughly 13"x18" two sided
in quantities of 100, I'd bet that would be a $100 right there. Even in the
S100 heyday $49 was cheap (no connectors or anything else).
Allison
The serial ports are no longer recognized ANYWHERE - in the BIOS, in DOS, by
MSD, Windows, anything. I have already re-installed Windows.
A virus planted by a hacker can damage hardware by "eating" at the chips, or
just scrambling the code in the chip. (I know someone (Ironically, it's the
sister of the person that did this to my computer), who's keyboard
controller chip got scrambled.
If you noticed the red text on the top of the page, I have removed all of
the images. I just didn't feel like deleting all the links.
--
-Jason Willgruber
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#: 1730318
<http://members.tripod.com/general_1>
-----Original Message-----
From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Friday, March 19, 1999 6:51 PM
Subject: OT: Re: Security question (sort of)
>On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Max Eskin wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote:
>> >Check out my website:
>> >
>> >http://members.tripod.com/general_1
>> >
>> In summary, it caused damage to the serial ports. Any computer whose
>> hardware can be damaged by software in this way should be thrown off the
>> Empire State Building.
>
>I think what Jason may not have initially realized (and maybe still not
>yet even) is that his Windows system configuration files got screwed and
>therefore his serial ports are no longer accessible under windows. As far
>as I know, its impossible to physically damage a serial port through
>software unless you make it possible by building a device whose soul
>purpose is to electrically short pins on the serial port on command. And
>of course, no sane persson would go through the trouble.
>
>So all he really needs to do is probably go into the Cntrol Panel, select
>System, then go to ports, remove the old serial ports (if they are still
>there) then add them again. Or maybe let windows find them for you with
>the Add New Hardware icon.
>
>BTW, I checked out the web site but all the links are bad. They all end
>up at a Tripod "page not found" page.
>
>Sellam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)siconic.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
>
> Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
> See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
> [Last web site update: 02/15/99]
>
>
You're right, of course. The fact that they've decided on this auctioneer
model for their business is simply a business decision. Judging from the
price at which their stock trades, I'd say it was a good one. There is
absolutely an evironment implicit in their business model, which encourages
higher rather than lower prices. They get a cut of the final price. You,
Sam, object to that, meaning their business model, and I don't blame you.
I personally dislike even more, the fact that their
transaction-completion-ratio is so low. It also encourages overbidding
because it does not "force" either party to fulfil the obligations which are
part of the implied relationship between seller and bidder. As a
consequence, I, or anyone else, can overbid in an effort to punish the
seller for starting the bidding at too high a level, i.e. I bid 20% high in
the belief that no one will outbid that value, and then abort the
transaction after the auction ends. This gets the auctioneer paid at the
seller's expense, yet costs me nothing. Next month I use a different email
account to identify myself, and all's well with eBay.
You're right . . . it's not perfect. It's not my place to object,
however, until something more to my liking comes along. I don't see that
happening any time soon.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: sellers market
>On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote:
>
>> Sam objects to "idiots" bidding against presumably rational people and
>> allowing the prices to escalate (he believes) due to the auction
atmosphere
>> presented by eBay. I don't happen to agree with him. The people who
sell
>> their good at auction wish for a ridiculously hign price. They don't
often
>
>Of course they wish for a ridiculously high price. And my argument, which
>you did not address, is that ebay's auction mechanism encourages
>such ridiculously high prices.
>
>> It's true, that eBay seeks to benefit by this overall-inane-if-not-insane
>> auction environment, simply because their fee is tied to the final bid
>> offered. Sam objects to this, while I object to the high precentage of
>
>And thus it is in ebay's best interest to put mechanisms in place which
>encourage over-bidding for an item. In the end they will collect the
>most revenues from the auction!
>
>> A few days ago, I was visiting Best Buy, which is a common source of
>> computer hardware at reasonable prices. I declined to pay $180 for a
10GB
>> hard disk because I though the price was a mite high. That was not the
only
>> reason, but it was a factor. Twenty years ago, I paid $1500 for a 5MB
>> Winchester drive. Lots of other people thought the price was a mite
high,
>> but I paid the price, believing that I needed the drive more than I
needed
>> the $1500. Does that make me an idiot? Does that make all the people
who
>> didn't buy the things twenty years ago fools? I think not.
>
>Well, who really NEEDS an Altair 8800?
>
>> All this is an allusion to the fact that it's called a "free" market. I
>> guess that means that there's no restriction against fools and idiots.
>
>Its a free market sure, but the prices that come out of ebay auctions are
>by no measure "fair market value".
>
>Sellam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)siconic.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
>
> Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
> See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
> [Last web site update: 02/15/99]
>
>I would like to put together a simple PDP-11 system. I've got a M7270
>card (LSI 11 processor) and an M8044-DB card (32KW MOS memory). I've also
>got a couple of PDP-11/03 and PDP-11/23 rack chassis that are both QBUS.
>I've also got a pair of RX02 drives. Does the M7270 go into an 11/03
>chassis?
Yes, it does... same ole' qbus...
>What other cards would I need to build a usable '11 ? No doubt a floppy
>controller card of some sort (although I also recently got the DSD440 to
>go with the funky RX02 emulator card) Some sort of serial port for a
>terminal (M number?) What is the minimum RT-11 system?
You'll need processor (M7270), memory (M8044), serial line card
(dlv11-J, M8043), boot/terminator (BDV11, REV11, etc), disk
interface card, disk, terminal. Of that list, I think you'll need a
BDV11 or REV11, unless the disk controller you have has on-board
boot (which the DSD880 controllers do have).
If I remember correctly, RT-11 originally booted in as little as
8kb of memory. Later we had to increase the minimum to 12 or 16 kb.
>I also picked up the programmers panel for a PDP-11/10. I'd love to put
>together a PDP-11/10 if I new what to look for.
I wish I'd known earlier... I have a couple of pdp-11/05,10 chassis
which I am giving to a group in Rhode Island...
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
Thanks to all those who made suggestions on how to do the move.
It turns out that the problem with lift gates has more to do with
the fact that both Ryder and Budget (and I'm sure other places
which rent vehicles) have separated their 'consumer' and 'commercial'
truck rental groups. I found that although it is possible to find
a truck with a lift-gate in the consumer division, they aren't
generally where you want them to be (I'm in framingham, MA, and
the closest one they could find was south boston... and at $.39
a mile for Ryder, that would add up quickly). The commercial
division is where you would find the lift-gates, but they would
be on larger trucks (>24ft) with air brakes, etc... things which
would require CDL...
So, that is out. The only thing I could find was a 15' long
7' high truck with a ramp... I got dollies, so I'll be able to
roll things into the truck. I'm getting moving pads to protect
everything.
I'm going to take tools to dismantle things, rope to tie things
down, and a digital camera to take pictures of cabling and/or
locations of things so I can restore them at my place.
Now, the only problem I've got is that the person who had offered
to help in the move is sick and can't help, so unless I can find
someone to help, I'll be wrangling this stuff alone at my place.
If there is anyone in the framingham, ma (sudbury, natick, marlboro,
maynard, etc) area who might be able to help, it would be much
appreciated. Meal/snacks are on me...
Please write to me off-line any time between now and about 9am
tomorrow... Thanks in advance to anyone who can help... Think
of the chance to handle some *real iron* (tm) :)
And look for pictures of the move in a few days on my web page...
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
Marvin, you're right on the money!
Sam objects to "idiots" bidding against presumably rational people and
allowing the prices to escalate (he believes) due to the auction atmosphere
presented by eBay. I don't happen to agree with him. The people who sell
their good at auction wish for a ridiculously hign price. They don't often
get it. The notion that these high bidders are idiots is false, however.
You remember what was paid for John Kennedy's cigar Humidor? Well only an
idiot would pay that for a humidor, right? It's the market that determines
what an item is worth at any given time, and these "idiots" are free to roam
the market, as are those who hope that THEIR Altair serial I/O board will
look, to someone else, like JFK's humidor.
It's true, that eBay seeks to benefit by this overall-inane-if-not-insane
auction environment, simply because their fee is tied to the final bid
offered. Sam objects to this, while I object to the high precentage of
failed transactions which eBay freely admits. I also dislike the fact that
eBay charges for the price and not for the amount paid, which, in the failed
transactions, is nil.
A few days ago, I was visiting Best Buy, which is a common source of
computer hardware at reasonable prices. I declined to pay $180 for a 10GB
hard disk because I though the price was a mite high. That was not the only
reason, but it was a factor. Twenty years ago, I paid $1500 for a 5MB
Winchester drive. Lots of other people thought the price was a mite high,
but I paid the price, believing that I needed the drive more than I needed
the $1500. Does that make me an idiot? Does that make all the people who
didn't buy the things twenty years ago fools? I think not.
All this is an allusion to the fact that it's called a "free" market. I
guess that means that there's no restriction against fools and idiots.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 1:38 AM
Subject: Re: sellers market
>
>
>Sellam Ismail wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Marvin wrote:
>
>> Yes, an open market WITH MECHANISMS IN PLACE TO ENCOURAGE THE RAMPANT
>> ESCALATION OF PRICES BEYOND ANY REASONABLE ASSUMPTION OF "FAIR MARKET
>> VALUE"! Look me straight in the eye and tell me that you think the way
>> eBay structures its service does not lead to unreasonable price
>> speculation on the part of buyers?
>>
>> The price an idiot decides to pay for a certain something does not and
>> should not define what the rest of us should have to pay!
>
>Are you interested in getting a hot topic going for VCF III? Put me down
on
>the panel to debate the function online auctions play in determining
>pricing, and the relationship of that pricing to perceived value.
>
>Your statement about MECHANISMS IN PLACE is interesting, but anyone who
>stops to think will realize that any type of marketing will produce the
same
>results. So why are you trying to make ebay a special case (which it is
>not)?
>
>Since this is getting seriously off topic, I'll let it drop, but you might
>want to consider this topic for VCF III!
>
>> I'm throwing my support behind whatever effort takes place to create a
>> free buy/sell/trade bulletin board. Its something I've been wanting to
do
>> for a while, and I think the time is right. I see a need and a purpose
>> for it, and it will be a great year round anchor for the VCF activities,
>> which is why I'd be willing to put whatever time and money it takes to
>> bring it to fruition and have it sponsored by the VCF.
>
>Free? I think this is a great idea, but generally speaking, "free" to one
>person can be expensive to another. To name just one example, VCF. You have
>put a great deal of time, effort, AND money into getting it up and running
>with minimal cost to participants.
>
> I think a better idea would be to have niche market mini-online auctions,
>and charge accordingly. I don't think I have ever found someone who
objected
>to ebay charges.
An important thing to remember is that the Original IMSAI sold for almost
$1000. SO even though a new Pentium II 400 is only $1000 with all the bells
and whistles there is a cost savings due to selling hundres of thousands of
the thing. An IMSAI kit maybe a few hundred or so.
I wrote Tom Fischer a few lines this morning, about the niche his "products of yesteryear" could fill in today's world. It's quoted below in his reply.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Fischer <TRF(a)imsai.net>
To: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: Welcome Back!
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Erlacher
To: mail(a)imsai.net
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 1999 7:40 AM
Subject: Welcome Back!
It's good to see you back, offering to support these venerable and still thoroughly useful microcomputers. Many of the functions which were commonly used back in the 1970's and '80's, but which are no longer supported in current generation microcomputers, are still valuable and in demand.
Today, however, it is necessary to build custom hardware, often requiring a larger investment than it did in the '70's, to provide a simple function. It's not unusual to have an entire PC devoted to the handling of a few bits of control and monitoring, which was straightforward to handle back in "the good old days" with a parallel or serial port board which could be used to handle much more without taxing the CPU.
I still use the old Intel boards, which I admittedly bought at inflated prices back in those days, to provide simple control and communication functions not convenient to provide with an entire PC.
You may be surprised to find how much of the interest in the old S-100 boards there is today, not for the many hobbyists interested in "retrocomputing," but from persons like me, whose primary interest is in exploiting the control and monitoring capabilities of these systems.
regards,
Dick Erlacher
Hi again, Dick-
I started writing a "short reply" to your e-mail, but an hour later I have this. You brought out a few points that I've been meaning to articulate for a while, so here's a first draft. A modified form of this will appear on the imsai web page http://imsai.net as a call for comment from all interested parties. Thanks for your interest!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been living "in a bubble" with respect to how current desires and requirements for the older machines are concerned, so forgive me for a bit of historical rambling and perspective. Your input is desperately needed in order for me to fulfill some, in not all, of the requirements to be implemented in the new embodiment of the IMSAI line. I'm going to experiment with the concept of letting the user-to-be provide input about the architecture and bus requirements, perhaps developing a second-generation evolution to the venerable S-100 standard.
In the mid-70's we started to explore the capabilities of those early machines and were fascinated with the ability to achieve higher-level logic and control functions in an open-architecture environment. The tremendous appeal was demonstrated by the sudden explosion of hobbyist computing magazines, hitherto non-existent, save for Radio-Electronics and Popular Electronics as examples of general circulation.
Those of us involved in serious electronic design subscribed to professional publications such as Electronics (with my favorite "Electronic Casebook" feature), Electronic Design, IEEE Computer, etc. Subsequently we were witness to the unravelling and experimentation with newer levels of logic and integration of both digital and analogue design. We went from the cumbersome multi-voltage logic families like DTL and RTL (hobbyists couldn't practically afford ECL logic with its superior speed and high power requirements), to the infant TTL and later CMOS variants which eventually would prove practical for most design requirements. As the first logic families began to stabilize in popularity and standardization we build the TV Typewriter, the MARK 8 computer (based on newcomer INTEL's 8008 traffic light controller chip), and the CYCLOPS video capture device. Then, MITS sprang the ALTAIR 8800 on us. A bit later came the ALTAIR 680 which used the Motorola 6800 processor.
The S-100 bus was an expensive entry into this infant field, but it allowed anyone armed with just a bit of electrical and mechanical know-how to build a machine that could interface to a televison, perform mathmatical operations, monitor and control machinery and remote functions and limitless other possibilites, all at 1 or 2 Mhz clock speeds, and with as little as 1K of RAM! Anyone could conceive and build a real-time clock board, a sound board, expansion memory board, I/O board, video display or capture board, interface to mass storage devices, limited only by the imagination. Like Henry Ford's Model T offered in bare-bones dress to the populace, the S-100 machines like ALTAIR and IMSAI brought entrepreneurial opportunity to the kitchen table!
The more "left-brained" of us became programmers; the High Priests, writing clever code that would tame the cumbersome process of hand-loading instructions into the machine's memory. They ported software like assemblers, compilers, interpreters, BASIC and other high-level languages down from University and Corporate mainframe systems down to the microcomputer. The simple "Kill The Lights" program offered free with the first IMSAIs was an example of perhaps 60 instructions that had to be toggled into memory by various manipulations of the address and data switches, stepped by the EXAMINE, DEPOSIT, and SINGLE STEP switches. It seems archaic today but back then the wonder of this machine doing something marvelous because YOU built it AND programmed it was joyous beyond belief. (we were easily amused :)
This S-100 architecture became "The Peoples' Architecture" and it flourished like nothing before it for perhaps a dozen years until eclipsed by the PC which, although still open-architecture (and superbly documented by IBM), was a magnitude of order more complicated and structured. Now the experimenter or designer had to master a BIOS, a more complicated bus structure, and a more expensive platform on which to prototype or design on. The increase in "horsepower" necessitated significantly greater expense and resources.
I feel that the same situation still exists. Witness the popularity of Parallax' BASIC STAMP and embedded controllers in all forms like the PIC series, INTEL and MOTOROLA families, etc. These architectures are removed from the increasingly complicated structure embodied in the AT class of PC. I would like to propose a return to the basics in purpose and stategy. To encourage a leaner, more focused and straight-forward compromise between hardware and software considerations. To once again provide a development platform that is classic and utilitarian in purpose.
There are two IMSAI machines planned for later this year. The first is a limited editon Platinum Classic machine featuring the front panel design and function that made it so popular in 1976. Inside, it will house a powerful Pentium-class motherboard on par with the most advanced Dell or Gateway machines, and high-wattage switching power supply. The front panel will have an embedded controller and interface for the still-to-be-defined bus, which will allow expansion in the same manner as the original S-100 architecture. Included will be a three-channel programmable Infrared communications link to allow interface and communications with virtually any device within IR range. A video bus, perhaps S-video, is also planned as a feature. The bus structure is open to comment, and a preliminary specification will be offered on http://imsai.net within the next couple of weeks.
The second IMSAI machine will be similar with respect to the above, but will not include the PC motherboard, although provision will be allowed for the user to install his/her own. The front panel capabilities will be the same, but perhaps with limited capabilities installed (but upgradeable). It will look very much like the original IMSAI 8080 in color and proportion, but will probably NOT include the OCTAL representation under the HEXADECIMAL switch lableing like the original. I think that only octal-notation advocate George "flat Earth" Morrow would miss that feature. Let me know if you disagree.
As for putting the original S-100 machine back in production, I think it would have to sell for around $1200.00 and require guaranteed sales of at least 500 units to make it a reality. But with IMSAI's and ALTAIR's selling for $3000 to$4000 on the internet, maybe that's a bargain! With a warranty to boot! I think we can all do better by embracing the new proposed standard. Please e-mail me with your comments, and pass the word.
Best regards,
-Thomas Fischer
The standard allowed for 16-bit use, but no more AFIK. The IEEE696 standard
provided for 24 bits of address and 16 bits of data. However, since the
signals on the S-100 were designed for the old 8080 functonal model, and
most of the signals which were required to run a computer's bus were simpler
than the model around which the S-100 was designed, the adoption of the
standard simply served to kill the S-100 bus. What's more, with its on-card
voltage regulation, far too much heat was generated in these linear
regulators for the technology which was current. This required fans and
fans were noisy enough to be objectionable on the desktop, which was the new
environment for computers.
The '696 standard defined cards which wouldn't work with the old versions
and which required far too much fiddling with the newer processors' bus
control signals to allow for a simple and elegant design solution, so the
bus simply went away, more or less of its own weight.
A decent reference for the S-100, though not a web site, is the
Osborne/McGraw-Hill book Interfacing to S-100/IEEE 696 Computers by Sol
Libes and Mark Garetz. This should give you all you need if you can find a
copy.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Arfon Gryffydd <arfonrg(a)texas.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, March 18, 1999 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: S-100 bus specs
>Is the S-100 bus used in any current computers? Can it be expanded to
>16/32/64 bits?
>
>At 02:12 PM 3/18/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>Anyone know of a good reference on the web for the S-100 bus (pin
>assignments ect..)?
>>
>>TIA,
>>
>>Steve Robertson <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>
>>
>>
>>
>----------------------------------------
> Tired of Micro$oft???
>
> Move up to a REAL OS...
>######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ #
>#####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /##
>####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /###
>###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |####
>##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|####
># ######
> ("LINUX" for those of you
> without fixed-width fonts)
>----------------------------------------
>Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com
>
I got the following (quoted) email in response to an inquiry regarding my couple of IMSAI parallel I/O boards. Their hit counter listed me as #13. I hope that's not an omen. The site is clearly a work in progress. If they see the direction the PC world is going, i.e. no expansion slots for us to use, they may actually see a market for the product types they sold twenty years ago. Who knows??
It's definitely worth a visit to the site < http://www.imsai.net > even if it's just for nostalgia.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Fischer <TRF(a)imsai.net>
To: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: documents
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Erlacher
To: info(a)imsai.net
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 1999 7:22 AM
Subject: documents
Over the years, I've been separated from my documents, or parts of my documents for the PIO-4 and PIO-4 boards. While, on the surface, these are quite transparent to understand, There are features, e.g. the 26-conductor connector at the top of the PIO-6, the purpose of which is not clear. Perhaps publishing the document for these boards will clear up my questions, which I'll bet are not unique.
regards,
Dick Erlacher
Hi Dick,
I'll see if I can get the PIO-6 info active tomorrow. That center connector brought out the bus control signals to complement the latched bi-directional signals for the other two connectors. If you're not already doing so, go to: http:/imsai.net since this is the new URL for IMSAI. Thanks for your interest.
Best regards,
-TRF
