< I think he means ROM Monitor, from personal experience I know it's nice
< have a ROM monitor that you can drop into and exercise the Hardware if
< don't have any boot media.
<
< Then again, why that would be helpful on a PC where you can get DOS with
< even trying, I don't know why it would be helpful.
Exactly! On a PC to run any code (even a rom debugger) enough resources
have to be there to nearly boot it. besides for hardware debug there are
POST and other codes.
Of course if someone wanted a debugger in rom most PCs still socket the
BIOS roms. it's a matter of codeing it up and adding the needed device
interfaces. On the whole not that useful.
Allison
< Besides Allison mentioned the IBM PC with ROM BASIC, and I've used a Zen
< Z248 (a 286) with a ROM Monitor that you can drop into, both of these ar
< definitly not developement machines. My NeXT slab had a ROM based monit
I think the z100 also had one.
Allison
< Sorry, I meant home personal computers. PDPs, IMSAIs, various
< development systems don't count. Satisfied?
< >SWTP 6800
< >ALTAIR-8800b (the front pannel is in a 1702 prom!)
< >Godbout 8080/front pannel replacement (octal keypad!)
< >Netronics Exploror 8085
< >CCS 2200 series s100 crate
< >Heath H8
< >Micromint SB180 (z180)
All of which are personal computers of that era and beyond!
If you ment the IBM PC and clones you have to be a bit more specfic.
Allison
-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, 2 November 1998 11:11
Subject: Re: definition of personal computer
>That at least reduces the number of terms we have to argue about by one
>(there's still "micro", "mini", "workstation", etc.)
I have semantic difficulty occasionally when describing my Vax 6000 as a
"mini-computer"
Considering it weighs in at 300+kg and is taller than my wife, it's mini
only in comparison to
something truly gigantic. IBM 360's or the like.
Cheers
Geoff
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie
South Australia.
netcafe(a)pirie.mtx.net.au
>For me, a personal computer is defined as any computer that I own and
>operate. If I could find a SYS/360 or SYS370, or Sigma/7 or Sigma/9 or
That's exactly how I've viewed it as well. When I told people that
my personal computer was a pdp-11/93 or a uVax system, they generally
balked at the idea, though. I've had to remind them that it is a
computer (that's never in question), and that I own it and use it.
Hence a *personal* computer... And although I didn't have one back
when the Imsai became available, I did get my first one (an 11/10)
in 1980.
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
Sorry, I meant home personal computers. PDPs, IMSAIs, various
development systems don't count. Satisfied?
>< It's too bad most micros don't have a debugger in ROM. Except for
>< computers made by Apple, I don't know of any. I especially wish the
>< PC had a ROM debugger. It would really help me feel like I'm using a
>< worthwhile machine.
>
>Shows what you don't know. Non exhaustive list of micros with debug
roms:
>
>PDP-11/03, 11/23, 11/73, 11/83, 11/84 (most all the non front pannel
11s)
>
>SC/MP
>IMSAI IMP-48
>Kim-1
>SYM-1
>AMI EV68 series
>Motorola 6800D1 and D2
>intel SDK-80/85/88
>SWTP 6800
>ALTAIR-8800b (the front pannel is in a 1702 prom!)
>Godbout 8080/front pannel replacement (octal keypad!)
>Netronics Exploror 8085
>CCS 2200 series s100 crate
>Heath H8
>Micromint SB180 (z180)
>Intel MDS-800
>Intel MCS-8 (8008)
>MicroVAX series including VS2000, 3100, 4000 and others.
>
>I am very certain I've left a truckload of them off.
>
>Also if the PC had rom basic there are instruction in basic that allow
>access to memory, IO and machine language subroutines.
>
>Allison
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
I was a member of this list for quite a while but the mail load got to
be too much for my school account.
I have placed an Apple Lisa on the eBay auction today. I'm selling it
for a friend. The bidding ends on Sunday the 8th of November. It has a
noisy drive and the monitor doesn't come on. The guy selling it doesn't
want to put any work into it so it's sold as-is.
I posted some pictures at my page:
http://www.calpoly.edu/~gmast/sfs/lisa/lisa.html
I think this system will go for a good price. It will sell regardless.
If this post offends anyone, I apologize but I know some people here
might want one of these for their collection and this might be a good
opportunity.
For more info, check out the auction listing at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=39295177
and check out the pictures at the link above.
I also listed one of those LCD displays for the Apple IIc. It's in great
shape. The auction is at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=39285574
The bidding must take place through the auction now that I've listed
them.
Bidding is free but you must register with the auction.
Thanks,
Greg
Hi.
It must be the (near) full moon... the day... or.... *howlllll* *grrr* ;)
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Strickland <jim(a)calico.litterbox.com>
>The biggest problem these older machines had was microsoft operating
systems.
>(okay, I'm a Unix/VMS bigot at heart, but DOS and win3.0/3.1 really WERE
that
>bad.)
I guess that before telling you how full of shit ( in a friendly way, of
course ) you are I should ask what your refering to here...
>>...but I've never met anyone who really LIKED these operating systems the
way the apple-heads liked prodos and gsos.
*statement now invalid*
Alas, (new) Apple-heads are turned-on by marketing ala translucent/green
repackaging. Dont get me wrong. the Woz is a god and Newton OS rocks, IIx
was cool...
The only thing that makes me seek non-ms oses is the programming ease
facilitated by microsoft in app development. Need some challenges
somewhere.... but I guess this is true for any programmer and their
preferred platform...
Mike: dogas(a)leading.net
.
< Allison... I am supprised - very. The BNC connector is a nice, easy to
< fit, reliable, waterproof, connector. The F-connector is a horrible
< little thing that (at least in the common version used in the UK) uses
< the central wire of the cable as the plug pin. I don't want to trust tha
< thing with my data.
They are actually very reliable and the cable industry uses them by the
ton. What often happens though is like any fine treaded item they can
be cross threaded and if the recepticle does not have a good spring
connector for the center wire then things fail. Considering I have a
house wide master antenna and also a house wide cable distribution
there must be at least 50 more F connectors in use and none have ever
given me grief.
Also I'm used to the older fully soldered BNCs (I still have the better
part of a pound coffee can of them) as I use them for all the O'scopes,
RF generators, radios (scanners, aircraft) and anything else that demands
a good shielded connection. But they are a PITA to assemble.
The one I consider the worst is the RCA, no lock, and tends to be loose
and noisy over time. Very popular with audio and video. I actually
have a bin full of locking rings that go around them to clamp them on.
Any test equipment with them installed gets opened and a BNC replacement
unless there is good reason not to.
< What, no Belling-Lee coaxial plugs (used for TV aerials in the UK, and
< thus very common over here) ? Or Pye coax plugs (screw-lock connectors,
< not common at all, but I have a reasonable stock of them)? And of course
< the SMA/SMB/SMC connectors.
I didn't want to go into some of the odd and esoteric like the TNCs.
Working with RF over the years I've hit most of them including pipe
(waveguides). Some types of cable like various sized hardlines from
the rg174 sized to the 2" stuff can use some odd connectors as well.
Heck I've been known to fix a sliced 10B5 cable using a pen knife and
vinyl electical tape until the Mill coms people could get to it. They
were horrified when the found it but, I finshed my printing and the
segment was working fine. Cables are part smoke and part majik. The
majik is putting the smoke back in when it leaks.
Allison
< repairshop trick to get more money, really. Companies help out a lot
< too. I'm sure schematics for a NSX Penitum-II 933 Turbo motherboard
You havent the first understanding of repair costs.
Lets assume that the chips and prints are available. there are only a
few chips and fairly easy to zero in on the failed one. Problem if it
takes an hour to do this (including remove and replaceing the bad chip)
thats easily 30-50$. Now that does not include getting the board out,
putting it back in assuring nothing else was wrong and running it for a
few hours (burnin). When a mother board costs between 49-499$ the
simple economics arent there. Also repairs are very hard to do on
multilayer boards (requires skilled people) and it's very easy to
compromise reliablity. Now if the failure was from lightining or a
power supply failure the whole board is likely cooked anyway.
This also side steps the problem of keeping special tools to desolder
the parts, keeping spares on hand, testing and all. All of these things
cost and if you have to keep a stock of parts (that can be come
antiquated) so you can turn equipment around fast (would you wait a
week for reapirs?) is expensive.
