Right on!
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Strickland <jim(a)calico.litterbox.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: definition of personal computer
>Personal computer: Any computer owned by a single individual rather than a
>corporation or government entity. Alternately any computer with a low
enough
>aquisition and operation cost to BE owned by an individual. This fits
this
>group best, since especially the mini and mainframe collectors
>have such animals as their "personal computers".
>
>The semantics become simple.
>"What is this cray 1 you have in the basement?"
>"It's my personal computer."
>
>The fact that they're also supers, mainframes, minis, or micros becomes
>irrelivant.
>
>:)
>
>
>--
>Jim Strickland
>jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
< personal computer. I would not consider the PDP a personal computer if
< I had one because it's not a personal computer. If you used a sedan
But, there were versions of the PDP-11 that were marketed as personal
computers. I can name not less than three different offering that were
desktop, personal, single user computers.
< to haul around heavy things, would you call it a truck?
No but it was never anything else nor could it be other than a taxi!
The problem is the computers were never called trucks or sedans.
Small computers that fit on a desk and are generally single user and
affordable by the then current standard were "personal computers".
Oh, a PC with an eithernet connection to a host is a WORKSTATION and
that is a valid use of the term.
The very flexibility and usefulness of small (desktop or deskside)
computers lent them to many different descriptions, names and uses
most overlaping.
Allison
< That is also a nice ability. But, BASIC isn't present in 386+ PCs.
< Does anyone know if there is some kind of commercial solution to this?
It's called POST, the last time I bought a POST board it was 59$ and
that was 3 years ago. it displays a two digit code that points to the
failed subsystem.
IBM systems also displayed a code to the CRT (if working) that also told
the problem.
Generally I've troubleshot PCs with nothing more than a VOM. Frequently
less.
Allison
< But whatever. It still doesn't explain why VCRs are always repaired to
< component level (and I've worked on VCRs with PQFP chips, multilayer
< boards, etc in them) and computers almost never are. Sure it may make
< sense _sometimes_ to change the module. But not always.
Here being the USA a VCR is $79 to $499, at 499 you repair, at 79
unless the problem is trivial it's a junker. NOTE: I'd used the term
cost of repair exceeds value of unit before. The average motherboard
for 386 and later machines it's unlikely to find 1488/9s on it or the
such. Then again fixing a damaged connector or fried HCT244 may make
sense. but if it's more than that, pull all the socketed stuff and
trash it as I can get used or new before I'll find a replacement for
the 84pin PQFP.
I've been through the exercize with a 386/486 clone board that the
external cache failed on. All I could do with it was disable the
external cache, pull the cache rams (they were all good) as it as it
was apparently one of the 84pin whatevers that developed a singular
failure. At the time of the failure the cost for a new 486 board
sans cpu was 69$ with twice the cache ram I had installed. I was able to
keep it going at reduced performance but repair was not possible unless
I found a similar clone and did a chip swap. IE: Cost of repair...
Eventually the board was torched to remove all the usable components
like the SIP resistors, clock cans, connectors and the like.
Allison
But if there's an error, isn't the post code displayed (if the display
works)?
>< Well, not to put too fine a line on it, all modern PC's have a
built-in
>< debugger. The Pentium has a built-in debug mode and brings the debug
po
>< out on the pins. I don't know of any PC maker that includes a debug
por
>
>has everyone forgotten POST codes already? All you need is a fairly
>cheap card to display them.
>
>Allison
>
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That's right. It's a personal computer, but not because someone has it
in their house. I left out the model number on 'PDP' because I'm not
familiar with them, but several said that their PDP-11/?? were personal
computers just because they had it in their house.
>> I consider anything that was marketed as a personal computer a
>> personal computer. I would not consider the PDP a personal computer
if
>> I had one because it's not a personal computer.
>
>By your own criteria, the original PDP-8 *is* a personal computer. DEC
>specifically marketed it based on the it being small enough that
someone
>could transport it in their automobile (specifically, a Volkswagen),
and
>cheap enough that someone could afford it.
>
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That is also a nice ability. But, BASIC isn't present in 386+ PCs.
Does anyone know if there is some kind of commercial solution to this?
>>< It's too bad most micros don't have a debugger in ROM. Except for
>>< computers made by Apple, I don't know of any.
>>Sorry, I meant home personal computers. PDPs, IMSAIs, various
>>development systems don't count. Satisfied?
>
>Most early "home computers" do have the functionality of a
>debugger in ROM - they just take decimal numbers, not Hex/Octal, and
>require you to type PEEK and POKE :-).
>
>Tim.
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Well, I know all Apple ][s had monitors, and I haven't seen a mac
that doesn't have a debugger. Not sure about the Apple I and ///
>"Max Eskin" <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I mentioned that all Apple computers have debuggers/monitors.
>
>That's certainly not true.
>
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You know, it may have been better if this stuff was offered BEFORE it was
put on ePay. What's the sense of 'offering' it to everyone on the list
when they have to go through ePay anyway? All this basically is is an
advertisement.
-Jason
***********************************************
* Jason Willgruber *
* (roblwill(a)usaor.net) *
* *
* http://members.tripod.com/general_1 *
* ICQ#-1730318 *
* /0\/0\ *
* > Long Live the 5170! *
* \___/ *
************************************************
----------
> From: Greg Mast <gmast(a)polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: FA: Apple Lisa and Apple IIC LCD Display
> Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 4:24 PM
>
> I was a member of this list for quite a while but the mail load got to
> be too much for my school account.
>
> I have placed an Apple Lisa on the eBay auction today. I'm selling it
> for a friend. The bidding ends on Sunday the 8th of November. It has a
> noisy drive and the monitor doesn't come on. The guy selling it doesn't
> want to put any work into it so it's sold as-is.
>
> I posted some pictures at my page:
> http://www.calpoly.edu/~gmast/sfs/lisa/lisa.html
>
> I think this system will go for a good price. It will sell regardless.
> If this post offends anyone, I apologize but I know some people here
> might want one of these for their collection and this might be a good
> opportunity.
>
> For more info, check out the auction listing at:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=39295177
>
> and check out the pictures at the link above.
>
> I also listed one of those LCD displays for the Apple IIc. It's in great
> shape. The auction is at:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=39285574
>
> The bidding must take place through the auction now that I've listed
> them.
>
> Bidding is free but you must register with the auction.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Greg
< From: mbg(a)world.std.com (Megan)
<
< That's exactly how I've viewed it as well. When I told people that
< my personal computer was a pdp-11/93 or a uVax system, they generally
< balked at the idea, though. I've had to remind them that it is a
< computer (that's never in question), and that I own it and use it.
< Hence a *personal* computer... And although I didn't have one back
What I called a "personal computer"
In early 1975 it was an Altair8800.
In 1976 I added a COSMAC ELF.
In 1977 a SC/MP, Motorola 6800D1 were added.
In 1978 A North*star Horizon was the mainstay s100 crate and a Technico
9900 starter board.
In 1979 A Netronics explorer8085 was added to the collection.
in 1980 I would add a TK80 SBC and a IMSAI IMP48.
In 1981 a LSI-11 became mine.
The idea of a personal computer for me is quite old and predates even
the Altair. However, I would not own a "PC" (upper case denotes them
IBM and clone things) of my own until 1991, even then it was an XT
class clone (still have that too!)!
Oh, FASWE applies with here... FASWE = First Aquired Stays With Me.
Allison
