Aaron Christopher Finney <A_Finney(a)wfi-inc.com> wrote:
> I've read the HP3000-L FAQ and searched most of the day for info, but
> there isn't much geared toward the Classic HP3000 home-hobbyist.
Yeah, and some of us 3000 fans view this as a problem.
> 9144 tape drive - I've already deduced that it's a low-density, 16-track
> capable of 67/134 megs and the tapes have to be purchased pre-formatted.
The HP part numbers for the tapes are 88140SC (150m) and 88140LC (600m).
It may be that you can get tapes from 3M with an "HC" suffix and those
can be made to work too.
I thought the 134MB version was the 9145 (32-track) drive.
> 2563A Printer - with a modular connector.
Modular? Hmm, haven't seen that before.
> 9123 3 1/2" dual floppy - picked up after-the-fact at a yard sale. It's
> HP-IB, but has a weird DIN power connector cord. No P/S.
This is for the HP Touchscreen II (aka 150C) -- the flavor of the 150
with the 12" display. It's got the DIN socket for that power cord.
I don't think the 3000 will play nice with it in any event.
> (2)HP3000 series 37's - these are piggy-backed, is this the usual
> configuration? . Here's where I need some info:
I'm thinking that what you have there is one 37 where the second box
provides I/O expansion. It's an option, my 37s don't have that.
> The "top" unit has a DB-25F in slot one, and an HP-IB in slot 4, as
> well as those DE-3F (correct terminology?) connectors in ports 0-5.
When I had a bunch of them on a 3000/64-68-70 (it got upgraded) I just
called them ATP connectors. Unfortunately I don't remember the pinout,
but it's three-wire RS-232 so not real hard to figure out -- harder to
find connectors for!
> The "bottom" unit has the DB-25F in slot one, the HP-IB in slot 4,
> and an AUI (ethernet? Is this a Lanic board?) in slot 5, as well as
> the 3-pin deals in ports 0-5. Above the ports is a female
> Centronics-50 which connected to what I believe is a terminal
> splitter, p/n 40290-60003. Above that is a *very* high-density 99-pin
> male connector, this is attached to the board with the HP-IB
> connector.
I'm wondering if the DB-25Fs are INPs -- basically synchronous serial
interfaces for computer-to-computer or computer-to-remote-terminal-mux
stuff.
If it says AUI, it's a LANIC. For that matter, if it's got the slide-lock
it's probably a LANIC.
The "Centronics"-50 doesn't have wire ears, it has threaded holes for
screws, right? If so, it probably is for the terminal port splitter.
That's the only sort of terminal interface I have in my /37s -- I didn't
know it could have "real" ATP connectors until a conversation with
Stan Sieler a couple of weeks ago.
I've *no* idea what the 99-pin connector is! Unless it's the
interconnect that's supposed to go between the backplanes in the two
boxes.
> The two units are connected vi an HP-IB cable on port 4 of each. Also,
> the top has the keyed power switch for both.
This bit about the HP-IB cable going between the units is something I really
don't get. I'd expect there to be an interconnect of some sort between
the two boxes and that the HP-IB interfaces are independent I/O channels.
If the bottom unit doesn't have the keyed power switch, then I don't
think it's an independent 3000.
> What I need is *really* basic info on the system and some pointers to
> information sources. Some quick ones:
> 1) How in the heck do the two 3000/37 units come apart?
Are you sure you want to do this?
> 2) How do I wire a terminal to this?
At a guess, the console port will be one of those port 0s.
> 3) Is the AUI connector an ethernet card? A lanic card?
Likely so.
> 4) Could someone please ID all the rest of the ports?
Tried that.
> 5) Is there a graphical display capability on this machine? As an add-on?
Not directly. You could connect a terminal with graphics capability
(HP 2648A, 2623A, 2627A; 2625A and 2628A with the graphics options; the
150s; probably some others that I'm forgetting) and there were additional
software products (HPDRAW, EASYCHART, DSG/3000) that knew how to use them
to produce drawings and charts.
> 6) What kind of Pertec tape interface is available for this machine?
Well, unless that's what's inside a 7970E tape drive cabinet, I'd say none.
By this point (mid-1980s) HP was using HP-IB for discs and tapes.
> 7) If my 2nd drive is damaged, how might I go about getting an OS for it?
Tricky. I don't know whether MPE for the classic 3000s is available at
all now.
> I apologize for such a long post and my absolute lack of knowledge here. I
> had a buddy who was supposed to help me out (3000 guru) but he's just gone
> overseas for work indefinitely. It's such a cool system, the way it's put
> together, and there's a bunch of neat freeware that I'd love to use too.
> Any help at all would really be appreciated.
Time for another glum part of the picture.
Roughly speaking, there's two kinds of 3000: the kind with series <= 70
and the kind with series >= 900. The former are the "classic" 16-bit stack
architecture. The latter are PA-RISC architecture. The freeware is very
probably for the latter.
-Frank McConnell
My Mac Portable doesn't have Color QuickDraw in ROM, but It will run on it,
providing I boost it up to the full 9 mess RAM. It begins to load, but then
gives a "not enough RAM" error.
--
-Jason Willgruber
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#: 1730318
<http://members.tripod.com/general_1>
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Date: Friday, November 27, 1998 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: Color QuickDraw
>
>Actually the SE/30 does have Color Quickdraw in ROM. All Macs that Apple
>shipped with 68020, 68030, and 68040 processors (and their variants) have
>Color Quickdraw in ROM. The later ones even have 32-bit Quickdraw.
>
>This is true irrespective of whether the Mac has a B&W display built in.
>For instance, on the SE/30 it is possible to install a color display
adapter
>in the PDS, and it works fine and in full color without needing any
>special software installed.
>
As you can see by my previous messages, I don't know much about Macs.
Yet another question:
How do I copy a file from a floppy disk to the hard drive? I tried the
drag-and-drop like Windows, and the icon goes to the HD (desktop, or a
folder on the HD). I eject the disk, then double-click the icon to run the
program. It tells me to insert disk "Untitled" (that's what the disk volume
is named). I insert the disk, and it runs the program off of the disk.
This gets a bit annoying after a while. I'm sure there's some way to copy
the files over to the HD, but how??
ThAnX,
--
-Jason Willgruber
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#: 1730318
<http://members.tripod.com/general_1>
< be able to send/receive. This also means both computers must be in
< perfect sync so they catch the rising/falling edges of the signal.
< IHMO, it's not a very good idea!
Simple encode a one as one ful cycle of 4800hz and a zero as a half cycle
of 2400hz (FM encoding). Recieving that is simple wait for the bit to
change and then wait to see if there is a change at one half (or window
>from 1/3 to 2/3) and then decide if that was a one or zero. since there
is a once per bit change (minimum) you can sync the machines by sending
a header of say 16 zeros.
The casette tape soctware does exactly that but at a slower rate as the
recorders are not so good as direct wires.
Allison
< copying them onto a correctly aligned machine would be the first thing t
< do to remove such hassles in the future :-). I still don't see how
< incorrect azimuth can be used as a copy protection system.
It can't. People were likely adjusting them to try and get reliability
in loading and assumeing that was the copy protection. Audio tape is
as difficult to copy protect as a vinyl recording, you can't effectively.
Commercial casettes tend to have lower levels as the dup machines try not
to saturate the tape as that would introduce distortion to music, also
most were design for stereo (narower head). Most cassette recorders use
a mono head (wider) so they pack up less and also when the record they
write a wider path meaning they recover more on play back. Stereo tapes
tend to play at lower levels and have poorer response on mono decks
because of the head with differences.
The only way to copy protect and audio tape is not try or make it so it
only works on a given machine.
Audio cassettes and computers stopped being company around or before '85
and I was there and never saw "copy" protection. I did see a lot of off
speed, poorly recorded, tape with horrid print through, dropouts from
poor tape (some you could see through!) and other recording errors that
would never be noticed if it were music. Actually the best protections
was each vendor had a different tape standard for format, data rate and
encoding method. None of that was deliberate, most was simply
implementation artifacts. The best being L1 trs80 used a slower rate
than LIIs on the same exact hardware.
Allison
/* note: sorry if this is coming through twice - I had a power outage
right as it was sending so I don't know if it made it the first time. */
Well, I finally got around to ripping apart the HP3000 rack I got from
John Lawson a couple of months ago. And desperately need some pointers...
I've read the HP3000-L FAQ and searched most of the day for info, but
there isn't much geared toward the Classic HP3000 home-hobbyist.
What I've got is this:
9144 tape drive - I've already deduced that it's a low-density, 16-track
capable of 67/134 megs and the tapes have to be purchased pre-formatted.
2563A Printer - with a modular connector.
9123 3 1/2" dual floppy - picked up after-the-fact at a yard sale. It's
HP-IB, but has a weird DIN power connector cord. No P/S.
(2) 7914 drives - one of these may be a non-op, having suffered some
damage during transit.
(2)HP3000 series 37's - these are piggy-backed, is this the usual
configuration? . Here's where I need some info:
The "top" unit has a DB-25F in slot one, and an HP-IB in slot 4, as
well as those DE-3F (correct terminology?) connectors in ports 0-5.
The "bottom" unit has the DB-25F in slot one, the HP-IB in slot 4,
and an AUI (ethernet? Is this a Lanic board?) in slot 5, as well as
the 3-pin deals in ports 0-5. Above the ports is a female
Centronics-50 which connected to what I believe is a terminal
splitter, p/n 40290-60003. Above that is a *very* high-density 99-pin
male connector, this is attached to the board with the HP-IB
connector.
The two units are connected vi an HP-IB cable on port 4 of each. Also,
the top has the keyed power switch for both.
What I need is *really* basic info on the system and some pointers to
information sources. Some quick ones:
1) How in the heck do the two 3000/37 units come apart?
2) How do I wire a terminal to this?
3) Is the AUI connector an ethernet card? A lanic card?
4) Could someone please ID all the rest of the ports?
5) Is there a graphical display capability on this machine? As an add-on?
6) What kind of Pertec tape interface is available for this machine?
7) If my 2nd drive is damaged, how might I go about getting an OS for it?
I apologize for such a long post and my absolute lack of knowledge here. I
had a buddy who was supposed to help me out (3000 guru) but he's just gone
overseas for work indefinitely. It's such a cool system, the way it's put
together, and there's a bunch of neat freeware that I'd love to use too.
Any help at all would really be appreciated.
Thanks,
Aaron
< As it was, it bored me to tears with it's dicussion of Venture Capital.
< spent half an hour discussing Cisco's experience. But, I see your point
Most of the industry was venture capital and managing same. The one we
talk about in a historical sense were often the least successful doing
exactly that!
< >One thing Max, BBS systems were never really an Internet thing. They we
< >stand-alone computers that could be dialed-up and info uploaded or
they were the internet before there was one. many of the BBSs were linked
so email from one to another was possible (FIDO come to mind).
Allison
> I have many old computer cassettes, and have been thinking of recording
them
> onto a computer in order to preserve their contents. The signal from
computer
> tapes oscillates between two levels, right? This being the case, it
should be
> possible to record them using 1-bit sampling. Perhaps record with 8- or
16-bit
> sampling and then convert down to single bit.
This is one of those things that depends on the hardware. The PET and its
descendants did indeed use one bit in that manner. There are quite full
descriptions of the waveforms it generates in several manuals.
One-bit sampling is not necessarily a good idea. What you then have is:
PET writes to tape nice square signal of well defined timing.
Signal comes off tape with rounded corners, noise etc.
You sample it at 1 bit and write to a file.
Later you read the file on a modern machine and reconstruct the audio.
This is a nice square signal, with timing dependent on (a) the distortion
of the original recording/playback process, (b) the noise added by tape
ageing etc., (c) your sampling at 22 kHz.
It goes through some audio system with not necessarily a good bandwidth and
arrives at the PET cassette port. The PET then has to interpret it...
Worse still if you're using an audio CD. The CD player will be filtering
according to what's best for the human ear, not what's best for the
computer.
My advice: If you're going to do 1-bit sampling, process _immediately_ to
try and reconstruct the original signal. That is what the machines do
(often in hardware), after all.
Then remember that some machines _don't_ use 1-bit encoding. The BBC
micro, for example, uses a standard modem chip of the time, and the outputs
look (I think) fairly sinusoidal...
> Are there any programs to do this conversion? I imagine the equivalent of
a
> Schmitt trigger (in software) would work. What about playing back a 1-bit
> audio signal? Are there any standard audio file formats that can be used
to
> store 1-bit data?
>
> The final 1-bit audio files should be highly compressible, so they could
be
> archived with zip etc. to reduce size.
Agreed. 1-bit sampled audio - or multiple bit sampled audio processed to
reconstruct the 1-bit waveform - should be many times more compressible
than ordinary sampled sound. In theory, the compressed file need be only a
few times the size of the original program, but I doubt this will be
achievable.
> Actually recording tapes to audio CDs is quite wasteful since you can
only get
> 70 minutes or so on a CD (an issue if you have hundreds of cassettes). My
> approach would be to archive tapes as described above; of course burning
an
> audio CD is useful for transferring the data back to the source computer.
I agree with whoever pointed out that you can use the two tracks of the
stereo audio for different programs. Cross talk is negligible. That's 140
min. After all, those of us with reel-to-reel tape have been doing this
for years...
Audio CD is necessary in my opinion. The point of this exercise is to plug
your computer into your sound system and load programs _without_ the need
for a modern machine to retrieve archives and things.
If it wasn't for copy protection, turbo loaders and the like I'd favour
sampling the output of the computer's cassette port...
Philip.
PS PET and many later C= machines have one more problem: they didn't use
standard audio cassette machine, but one with a special Commie board in it
and a custom interface.
Will Color QuickDraw run on a non-color Mac (Portable)? If it will, where
do I find it? I need it to run a program.
ThAnX,
--
-Jason Willgruber
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#: 1730318
<http://members.tripod.com/general_1>
I'm making backup disk images for my Atari 800. I was wondering if
anyone has the equivlent of Fast Hack Em for the Atari? Also dose
anyone know of a drive emulator for the Apple II?
Charles
