Somehow, a discussion I started of actually USING "home computers"
(versus merely collecting them) degenerated into a fight about what a
"home computer" is. And a sister discussion I attempted to start about
putting "modern" applications on classic machines yielded discouraging
words, too.
I guess I should have started out with my ulterior motives.
For a computer to survive as anything more than a relic, it has to have
a user community. Now, I suppose I could use my TI for "typical home
computing tasks" with the software I already have whether there was
anyone else in the world using a TI or not. And I suppose I would, too.
But for other jobs I wanted done that my computer COULD do (even if
being a Web browser is NOT one of them), I would either have to program
it myself, or find someone else to do it. And if I did it myself, most
of the fun is sharing it with other TI users. And part of the fun of
having this old computer is that there are other people bucking the
trend along with me. In other words, we have a TI computer user
community, and that is a very hefty reason for sticking with the TI
computer.
In fact, the TI community is shrinking, and as the members of the
community observe it shrinking, some are inclined to bail out ("rats
abandoning a sinking ship"). Given that trend, the community will
waste away to a few hardcores unless there is new life added, either in
exciting new "modern applications" or attracting new people to adopt a
simple machine that can perform "common everyday household computing
tasks" that they DON'T need a Pentium to do.
Of course, while my main loyalties are to the TI-99/4A, I recognize all
the other "home computers" suffer from the same conditions, and I was
hoping to create a dialog for HOW to do this, particularly strategies to
attract people to join the community, and to share technology of "modern
applications" that one community may have successfully achieved and
another could use.
So what I was fishing for was the thoughts of those people who read this
List and understand the dilemma. In a Wintel-dominated world, is it
even FEASIBLE to try to attract other people to choose from the
abundance of small computer systems, otherwise destined for the landfill
or recyclers?
My previous remarks about mainframes, which were interpreted as saying
that they are not "home computers", were made from the point of view
(and perhaps in ignorance) that, while C64s, Atari 8-bitters, TIs,
CoCos, and other "home computers" that were sold FOR THAT PURPOSE in
K-Mart and other department stores DO (or at least did) have a user
community, sharing programs, encouraging other users, forming User
Groups, publishing Newsletters, etc., other machines (such as the
PDP class of mains, minis, etc. and maybe Altairs and S-100 bus
computers) do NOT have this aspect to their existence. I guess I
do know about DECUS; don't know if something like that existed for
PDP-11 owners or not, or even if professionally-oriented thing like
DECUS would be applicable here. I certainly did not mean to imply that
these machines are not useful for "household computing jobs", and by no
means did I intend that this mailing list is only for the classic "home
computers" with user communities, or to exclude anyone else from
participating.
--
**********************************************
* David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers *
* dlormand(a)aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona *
**************************** TMS9900 Lives! *
*** On Wed, 2 Jul 1997 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu wrote:
CLASSICCMP Digest 101
*:Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:27:36 +0000
*:From: jpero(a)mail.cgo.wave.ca
*:To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
*:Subject: Re: Strange Tandy 1000HX
*:Message-ID: <199707011827.OAA28789(a)mail.cgocable.net>
*:MIME-Version: 1.0
*:Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
*:Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
*:
*:Jeff,
*:
*:> I don't see much point in this though since the HX's controller won't
*:> handle the 1.44 meg drive anyway. Plus, it'd be easy enough to add a floppy
*:> drive to it, but supposedly neither knock-out plate has been punched out
*:> behind either of the drive bays! This is what prompted my original post.
*:Why not check out the external 5.25" internals? Point is, can use
*:those easier to obtain 1.44mb drives and use them as 720k in old XT's
*:in place of harder to find 720k drives. I did that just like that
*:in one of those IBM XT using its original controller and a brand new
*:20 bux 1.44 in PC that allowed me to fire it up with my 720k Dos 5.0
*:and install it to hd also allows user to interchange data with newer
*:pcs easily. 360k was 40 tracks by 9 sectors, 720k used 80 tracks but
*:the older controller controlled this drives no problem therefore
*:any newer 1.44 will work as a 720k duty. In fact, 1.44 and 720k
*:drives only differs in minor ways: higher frequency heads, extra
*:sensor put in to support the 18 sectors.
*:
*:BIG snap!
*:
*:> Actually, it's an 8088 running at like 7.16mhz I
*:> believe. One needs the
*:> PLUS Memory board to add the memory above 256k, the DMA functions, and the two
*:> additional PLUS connectors for the additional cards. That's a neat idea about
*:> the SCSI though...heck, it'd be a cinch fitting one of the newer drives into
*:> one of the 1" x 3-1/2" drive bays. The only problem would be power to the
*:> drive, since as you've already mentioned, Tandy likes to send the power
*:> through the ribbon cable.
*:Thanks for correction and oddball mHz? Most clones uses 8mHz.
*:If you could look in external drive, it might have adapter wirings
*:that will allow you to make new cables adapters for that "1.44" as
*:720k drives to put in your HX machine.
*:---
*:
*:Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:23:38 -0700 (PDT)
*:From: Bill Whitson <bill(a)booster.bothell.washington.edu>
*:To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
*:Subject: FAQ Bonanza
*:Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.91a.970701212249.14727D-100000(a)booster.bothell.washington.edu>
*:Mime-Version: 1.0
*:Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
*:
*:=============================================================================
*: DO NOT DISPOSE OF THIS PART OF THE FAQ. THIS IS THE PART THAT EXPLAINS HOW
*: YOU CAN SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE. IT WILL TAKE ME MORE TIME TO DO THESE
*: THINGS FOR YOU THAN IT WILL TAKE FOR YOU TO DO THEM YOURSELF
*:=============================================================================
*:ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List
*:Part 1 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy
*:Mail/Internet Basics FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.2
*:Last Update: 7/01/97
*:-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
*:This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available
*:answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is
*:Maintained by Bill Whitson <bill(a)booster.u.washington.edu>. The infor-
*:mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but,
*:in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain-
*:ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible
*:and often failed ;).
*:
*:This FAQ is Part 1 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented
*:deals with the use of mailing lists and internet-specific tools.
*:
*:If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please
*:contact me at the address above.
*:
*:A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://weber.u.
*:washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.27 in the
*:directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as classiccmp.faq.
*:----------------------------------------------------------------------------
*:Updates: New Sections: 2.1, 3.1
*:-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
*:1. Mailing Lists
*:----------------
*:1.1 Mailing List Basics
*:1.2 How to Talk to the Robot
*: How to set to Digest
*: How to Subscribe
*: How to Unsubscribe
*:
*:2. FTP
*:------
*:2.1 FTP Basics
*:
*:3. World Wide Web
*:-----------------
*:3.1 WWW Basics
*:
*:=============================================================================
*:1.1 Mailing List Basics
*:
*:A mailing list is a simple device which takes an e-mail and redistributes it
*:to a group of people. People can add and remove themselves from the
*:distribution list by Subscribing and Unsubscribing. When you send a message
*:to the list, it is first examined by the robot for key words that tell it
*:to process an automatic funtion (like help, subscribe, unsubscribe, etc).
*:If the message does not contain a keyword it is sent to the distribution
*:list.
*:
*:1.2 How to Talk to the Robot
*:
*:There are a few List Processor commands that you might want to use. To
*:send a command to the list processor, write a message to
*: listproc(a)u.washington.edu
*:(Do NOT send the message to classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu). In the body of
*:the message (not the subject line, that is) write one of the following
*:commands, then send the message.
*:
*:SET CLASSICCMP MAIL ACK
*:
*: Tells the robot to send you a copy of messages you
*: write to the list. This is the default.
*:
*:SET CLASSICCMP MAIL NOACK
*:
*: Tells the robot NOT to send you a copy of messages
*: you write to the list. I don't recommend this.
*:
*:SET CLASSICCMP MAIL DIGEST
*:
*: Tells the robot to send you a digest of messages
*: rather than each as it is posted. With this option
*: you will get a weekly bundle of messages and keep
*: a nice, tidy in-box.
*:
*:SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address
*:
*: Subscribes you to the list.
*:
*:UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address
*:
*: Removes you from the list.
*:
*:[][][][][][][][][][]
*:
*:2.1 FTP Basics
*:
*:FTP is a protocol by which files can be transferred over the internet.
*:You can use FTP to connect to a remote site and retrieve files. The
*:commands you use with FTP depend on the software you use. In general
*:you must make sure that you are in BINARY mode before transferring a
*:program file or compressed files. The process of downloading a file
*:is usually termed GET and the process of uploading a file is usually
*:termed PUT.
*:
*:Your FTP program will require an address to connect to. For the
*:ClassicCmp site that address is 140.142.225.27.
*:
*:You then may be asked to log in (unless your program assumes an
*:anonymous login). When asked for a name, use anonymous. When asked
*:for a password enter your internet e-mail address.
*:
*:[][][][][][][][][][]
*:
*:3.1 WWW Basics
*:
*:The only complicated thing with the WWW is knowing what bells
*:and whistles your web browser supports. You don't really need to
*:know much other than the address for ClassicCmp. The web site is
*:all text which means just about any web browser from the oldest
*:Lynx to the newest Netscape or Microsoft browser should support it.
*:
*:The ClassicCmp site is http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html.
*:---
*:Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 00:36:55 -0500
*:From: Allen Underdown <wbrco(a)valuenet.net>
*:To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
*:Subject: Re: Flex for 6809/6800
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
*:Message-ID: <33B9E8F7.7C5A(a)valuenet.net>
*:MIME-Version: 1.0
*:Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
*:Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
*:
*:Benedict Chong wrote:
*:> Does anyone know if one can still get Flex for the 6809 or 6800?
*:> There're people archiving and using CP/M stuff but it seems a waste to
*:> let a very simple and neat OS like Flex go the way of the dinosaur.
*:>
*:> Ben
*:
*:Don't worry, I have several copys...
*:--
*:| Allen Underdown - wbrco(a)valuenet.net |
*:| Amateur Radio Operator - N0GOM, computer geek, |
*:| homebrewer and outdoor enthusiast! |
*:| http://lakers.cybercon.com/wurmborn |
*:
*:---
Greetings:
I am wondering if any of you out there could help me out. I am looking to
acquire an old educational computer that I had years ago called the Laser
50 personal computer. What it was is an old educational computer (for
kids basically) produced by V-Tech, or Video Technologies, Ltd. around
the mid 1980s. This machine was the size of a regular laptop computer and
allowed small BASIC programs to be saved internally, and also had built
in educational software, calculator, etc. The manual I still have for it
says an additional cassette recorder could be purchased to save programs
on, as well as printers, and a 16k expansion unit.
Please let me know if you might have any information on this computer....
I would really like to find one for my kids. I am also looking to find
the address for the manufacturer. I know V Tech still makes computer-like
educational machines for youngsters today.
I would appreciate your help.
Thanks in advance,
CORD COSLOR
PO Box 308
Peru, NE 68421-0308
(402) 872- 3272
coslor(a)bobcat.peru.edu
Hi all.
OK - here's the scoop so far on the Archival of
classic computer stuff. Please give your input
so that we can get the standards settled.
The UW has graciously given me permission to
attach a personal server to the network full
time for ClassicCmp, so the underwork for the
project is pretty well taken care of.
I have a system that I'm working on setting up
for the job - it will be a 486/66 with 32 MB
of RAM and 3 GB of disk space. I am currently
planning to set it up with linux. As you all
know I am terribly slow about getting things
done so it will probably be a couple weeks
before it goes online. In the meantime we will
continue to use the current FTP site which has
plenty of space available.
The particulars for how things will be stored
are listed below for your review.
Remember that the primary purpose of the
archive is to store these items so that
_someone_ can access them and make them
available. It's probably not possible to
always find a format that everyone can use,
but if the data is here you can be pretty
sure that you will be able to get it one way
or another.
System Software
System software will be stored in a variety
of formats. The preferred format will be
disk images for those machines for which
the means to create such an image has been
developed. Examples are the Apple II/III
(.dsk, .do, .po files) and C64 (.dsk files).
The alternate format will be disk images
created with a Central Point Option Board [1]
which will read almost any 5.25" or 3.5"
diskette. Those with such a board will be
able to simply download and use the images.
Those without will need to arrange to get
a copy through regular mail. It's not a
perfect solution but I can't come up with
anything better. This will not cover 8"
disks and I don't know how to deal with them
as yet.
General Software
Non-booting software will be stored in the
preferred compressed archival format for
each machine (GZip where available).
Firmware (ROMS, PROMS, PALS(?), etc...)
I still don't know what a standard format
for this should be. Anything which can be
dumped to a file I'm willing to go with.
My (limited) gizmo calls the format that it
dumps to my PC "RAW". I assume that this is
just the contents bit-for-bit. If anyone
can read/write in raw format I'd recommend
going with that.
Documentation/Books/Magazines
Text: Text should be presented in plain text,
RTF, or PostScript. I will convernt submis-
sions to conform to all three formats.
Line Drawings: Should be formatted in either
TIFF or PostScript format.
Images: Should be formatted as either JPEG
or PNG (Portable Network Graphic). I will
convert PNG to JPEG on submission.
Tag Files
Each item will require a tag file to cover
it's identification. This file is currently
DS-form.txt located in the docs directory on
the FTP site. It is probably not yet specific
enough on the technical details - I will need
recommendations on what to add. It does cover
all the legal issues I wanted to address.
Retrieving Files
These files will be made available by FTP.
Most will be easily downloadable by anyone.
Some (Firmware, System Software) will be
more difficult and will require physical
assistance. I will generally be willing
to create and mail disks for those who need
them and can provide the media. I am poorly
equipped to take care of firmware. Those
without the neccesary gizmos will need to
rely on the kindness of the group.
[1] The Central Point Option Board is a
device for an ISA bus PC that will read
almost any standard floppy. They are still
fairly commonly available for $20 or so.
Bill Whitson
I have a couple for sale/trade, but I'm afraid my valuation would be
somewhat higher than that :( I'd buy several more for $20 apiece if
they could be found.
If you want to spend a lot of hours sifting through vendors' junk-board
boxes, you can find one without software or cable for maybe $1-5, and
get the software off the 'net, but I price mine in original box with
software & cable at more like $50 or trade.
I'd trade one for a properly constructed/tested 34-50pin
CompatiCard-to-8"-drive cable, OR a CompatiCard IV to replace my CC II.
Kai
> ----------
> From: Richard A. Cini, Jr.
> Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
> Sent: Thursday, July 03, 1997 8:09 AM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Archiving
>
> >>[1] The Central Point Option Board is a
> device for an ISA bus PC that will read
> almost any standard floppy. They are still
> fairly commonly available for $20 or so.>>
>
> I remember having one of these many years ago, but I can't find it
> anymore.
> You mention that they are commonly available, but where do you
> recommend that
> I start looking??
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> Rich Cini/WUGNET
> - ClubWin Charter Member (6)
> - MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking
>
I have to get this off my chest.
Commodore 64s have to be the god damn shittiest made computers ever. I
had to test these 1571 drives that I sold someone and brought out 2 C64s
I have in my garage and 2 power supplies because I know how notorious
each part is for not working. I plug each in and niether work. I try
the other p/s...same thing. I get ANOTHER p/s...both dead. I get yet
ANOTHER power supply and 3 more C64 consoles I have. Of those 3, 2
worked! Is this a shittily engineered system or what? What bad weed
were these idiots who designed this smoking? I've never had such bad
luck with any other system. Out of all the systems I've ever acquired,
the commodores and their stupid prone-to-burning-out power supplies have
been the most likely to not work. I've gotten systems out of the rain
that have been sitting in the elements for probably YEARS that have
worked. But a C64? Hell no! Piece of crap!
There must be some well-known fix for these idiotic things. I turn them
on and get just a pure black screen. This is what happened to the first
C64 I ever got from a friend 9 years ago. It just up and died on me all
of a sudden one time when I was using it. Screen went black. There's
got to be an easy way to fix these stupid things. Either that or there
must be a well known joke passed around in commodore circles about how
unreliable these junk heaps are. What a depressing hunk of crap.
Aye.
Sam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
> In fact, the TI community is shrinking, and as the members of the
> community observe it shrinking, some are inclined to bail out ("rats
> abandoning a sinking ship"). Given that trend, the community will
The attrition may be due to limited software or simple the machines
failing. Likely the users have found other platforms (older cheaper PCs)
or even new ones. Also it may be more difficult to use older machine
>from the point and click mindset.
Don't forget peer pressure "Your still using that?".
> Of course, while my main loyalties are to the TI-99/4A, I recognize al
> the other "home computers" suffer from the same conditions, and I was
> hoping to create a dialog for HOW to do this, particularly strategies t
True but some suffer deeper. The more useful and more common software is
the more likely it is to be still in use. Hence the commodors/trs80s/cpm
machines. A quick survey of archive sites will show the common machines
based on software available.
> So what I was fishing for was the thoughts of those people who read thi
> List and understand the dilemma. In a Wintel-dominated world, is it
> even FEASIBLE to try to attract other people to choose from the
> abundance of small computer systems, otherwise destined for the landfil
> or recyclers?
Depends on their needs and how important compatability is to them. I
have a PC becuase I have to not because it's all that great. Some or a
lot of the world is PC based and I have to be compatable with them.
> My previous remarks about mainframes, which were interpreted as saying
> that they are not "home computers", were made from the point of view
> (and perhaps in ignorance) that, while C64s, Atari 8-bitters, TIs,
> CoCos, and other "home computers" that were sold FOR THAT PURPOSE in
> K-Mart and other department stores DO (or at least did) have a user
> community, sharing programs, encouraging other users, forming User
> Groups, publishing Newsletters, etc.,
> other machines (such as the
> PDP class of mains, minis, etc. and maybe Altairs and S-100 bus
> computers) do NOT have this aspect to their existence.
Excuse me? not so! Many of the s100 systems had very active user groupd
though they were more often segmented by OS rather than bus.
> I guess I
> do know about DECUS; don't know if something like that existed for
> PDP-11 owners or not, or even if professionally-oriented thing like
> DECUS would be applicable here. I certainly did not mean to imply tha
There are several groups for the PDP-8/10/11/vax other than decus but
decus goes back to day one.
What you forget is the intersil 6100 chip (pdp8! and the desktop version
the DECMATE) and closed PDP-11 systems (PDT11/150 and PRO350) were sold
in the same space and had very seperate communities outside of DECUS.
It's not as cut and dried as your words picture it. Personal computing
as adjunct to commercial computing was and is largely driven by cost,
capability and software. Many amazingly poor machines did well not for
the hardware but an abundance of software.
Food for thought, The ti9900 chip is nearly as old as the 8080 and it was
a 16bit design based on the TI990 minicomputer. Wouldn't you want that
machine? FYI it was not that large (comparable to a PDP-11/20.). Yet
the ti99/4a was year later...why? No support from TI, they figured you
get the mini and devlope applications using the chip so support was
limited. FYI, the ti9900 chip is a fairly high performance CCPU compared
to the 8080!
Allison
I have the following extra stuff taking up space if anyone would like any of
it:
1) TRS-80 Model 4, desktop model with dual floppies and 64k RAM. works
perfectly, and will include an original copy of TRSDOS 6. Asking $20 +
shipping.
2) Sears SR2000 printer...dual interface IBM/Commodore 8bit. Seems to work
fine though needs a new ribbon. $4 + shipping
3) Commodore Plus4/C-16 joysticks..a pair with the 8pin minidin connector.
loose. unable to test. $5 + shipping
4) Atari SC1224 monitor...color monitor for the Atari-ST's. works great,
though has some magic marker on the case. asking $10 + shipping
I'm selling off these to make room for additional aquisitions, so if
interested, please email me! Thanks.
Jeff jeffh(a)unix.aardvarkol.com
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
> I had a 1000HX (still have, I think -- it's out on loan) with internal 5
> 1/4, external 3 1/2
>
If it has a 5 1/4" internal (on the right side?) then it is a
1000EX and not HX.
They're similar but I forgot what the main difference was other than
the drives. I don't think the EX has a setup program like the HX's
SETUPHX is one. Wonder if it's possible to change settings on the
EX like the HX (EEPROM).
Marc
>>[1] The Central Point Option Board is a
device for an ISA bus PC that will read
almost any standard floppy. They are still
fairly commonly available for $20 or so.>>
I remember having one of these many years ago, but I can't find it anymore.
You mention that they are commonly available, but where do you recommend that
I start looking??
-------------------------------------------------
Rich Cini/WUGNET
- ClubWin Charter Member (6)
- MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking
