test-drb May 1997

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

79 participants
197 discussions

by scott＠saskatoon.com

> Two of my favorites: > > ISTR (tho I haven't seen it since it came out) that the original Terminator > was programmed in: > > 1: Basic (Applesoft Basic, wasn't it?) > 2: 8-bit Assembly (methinks 6800/6809, but it could have been 6502... > memory fuzzy) That reminds me... was it Inner Space where the guys working on the computers were simply going through pages of monitor dumps on Apple ][+ or //es? ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott(a)cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott(a)saskatoon.com CANADA email: scott(a)cprompt.sk.ca -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

27 years, 7 months

Pournelle (The decline and fall of Byte)

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

About 9 years ago when I was in our end user support organization, I had occasion to speak to Jerry. He was threatening to give QuickBasic a scathing review because he couldn't get it to compile Mrs. Pournelle's Reading Program (what else?) under Windows 386. He called up our QuickBasic group manager and just about carved him a new orifice. I, as the Windows support lead, was asked to call him on this very urgent, sky-is-falling problem and help him out, since as you may have noticed >from years of columns, he never, ever calls support himself. The conversation went something like this: Me: "Hi Mr. Pournelle, this is Kai with Microsoft Product Support..." Jerry: "What the HELL are you DOING calling during my DINNER TIME?!?" Me: "I'm sorry sir, I understood you had a very urgent issue, and I had no way of knowing..." Jerry: "YOU PEOPLE are MORONS! <blah blah blah blah>" And things went downhill from there. Later on we finally got to the problem, which as I recall was related to a bizarre SCSI adapter in that silly Cheetah 386 he had, the one into which he would put any piece of hardware any manufacturer ever sent to him for free. Not a great experience. I spoke to him again a few months later on a different issue, and he was no more lucid or logical on that occasion. Kai > ---------- > From: Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers[SMTP:gram@cnct.com] > Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 1997 2:01 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: The decline and fall of Byte > > On Tue, 6 May 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > > > My own collection of Byte starts with August of 85 (Amiga 1000 is > the > > cover story) and ends somewhere in late 89 or early 90. The library > at the > > university I attended had issues starting from Jan '77 (which I read > 8-). > > The dates given here are approximate, looking at a Byte from 1980, > then 1985 > > then 1990 will show almost three different magazines. > > > > -spc (It started sliding when Robert Tinney stopped doing magazine > covers, > > (~87) then it nose dived once Steve Ciarcia stopped writing > hardware > > articles, (~88 or 89) although there are some that think it > started > > way back in '77 when Pournelle started his column) > > Well, most of my older Byte magazines were destroyed by water several > moves ago, and I wouldn't mind acquiring most of them again. I had > mostly > given up on Byte in the mid-eighties, but in recent years I've wound > up > with a subscription (recently finally expired) due to McGraw-Hill > ceasing > publication of more useful magazines. Ciarcia's articles were always > excellent (and I know that most of them were released in book form > awhile > back), and his current magazine, "Circuit Cellar Ink" is pretty good, > especially if you're a serious hardware hacker as I no longer am. > Actually, nowadays, Pournelle's column is about the only thing I read > in > the magazine, and now that it's available on the web (with extra > text), I > really don't care to subscribe. Opinions vary concerning Jerry > Pournelle. > I've known him for over twenty years due to our mutual interest in > science > fiction and membership in the Los Angeles Science Fantasy Society (I'm > still a member despite living in New Jersey -- Death Shall Not Release > You!). Over the years we've had a lot of conversations and arguments, > about politics (he's in favor of having a government, I'm opposed), > about > space development (we're both in favor) and computers (I was a > Shacker, > and while I was living elsewhere on the continent he had bad > experiences > with a very early TRS-80 and the company rather hurt themselves by > being > uncooperative and ignorant of the power of the press -- which is why > after > I showed him one of the first Model 100s, he went out and got a NEC > equivalent). He's a man of strong opinions who's always trying to > learn > something new and so am I. Really, he should be a member of this > mailing > list -- he's experienced directly more of the history of computers > than > most of us who've worked and played with them. That plus having the > clout > to get information from the movers and shakers. > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe > >

27 years, 7 months

The List!

by scott＠saskatoon.com

> > Apple III 6502 128K SOS MICRO 83 > > The Apple III is definitely earlier than 1983. I have a booklet entitled > "Apple In Depth" from 1981 and it has the Apple III in it. Also, I found > a review of the III in the December, 1980 issue of Popular Science > (p.113). Strictly from my memory but, I'm _positive_ the A/// was released in fall of 1980. It actually beat the IBM PC to market, but had 100% hardware malfunction in the first run, and didn't have the bugs fixed until after the PC was out. (No longer strictly from memory. I just checked it out, It _Was_ Sept. 1980, and the ][+ was June 1979.) Apple has a great 'History' at: http://product.info.apple.com/pr/background/pr.background.timeline.html (Of course, it doesn't really mention any of the major failures.) ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott(a)cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott(a)saskatoon.com CANADA email: scott(a)cprompt.sk.ca -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

27 years, 7 months

movie computers (The List! )

by ldickey＠west.cscwc.pima.edu

DATE SENT: 6-MAY-1997 16:59:36 > >I recently found out that _Weird Science_ possibly has an Apple Lisa in >it and that some chick is named Lisa because she was designed on the >computer. Never seen the flick, but I think I might have to now... > I think it may have been an Atari (1200xl?). It's been years since I last saw the movie, so I might be wrong. --- ####### "Hey...how'd I get in here?" | o o | Loren Dickey ( ^ ) ldickey(a)west.cscwc.pima.edu \ o / ldickey(a)aztec.asu.edu

27 years, 7 months

Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

I agree completely Bill. Here are some reasons I can think of off the top of my head for starting the newsgroup: - If we look at The List that has been circulating, only about 1% of those manufacturers have a comp.os.* group associated. - Someone who has a classic computer in their closet doesn't want to join a mailing list just to post a targeted for sale ad. - We don't want posts from commercial vendors of classic systems/software/parts filling up our mailboxes, but I'd like to encourage them to post to the newsgroup. - alt.folklore.computers is for discussions about folklore (did Gary Kildall really refuse to sign that IBM nondisclosure, thus dooming CP/M?) not buy/sell/trade activity. - A mailing list is an inappropriate place to hold an auction - Usenet is automatically archived and searchable via DejaNews Kai > ---------- > From: Bill Whitson[SMTP:bill@booster.bothell.washington.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 1997 2:52 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD > rec.collecting.computers.classic > > > Keeping it to ourselves is counter productive. The point is to > share the > > knowledge to get more people interested to preserve more computers. > The > > point is we do this because we have passion for the systems. Every > hobby > > is going to be prostituted some time or another. As long as your > passion > > remains, its all good. > > Let me clarify, just in case. Anyone with interest can join this > list. > If you guys wish to spread the word or post about it in appropriate > places be my guest. > > I don't stand one way or the other on the newsgroup idea but I think > it's agood idea to take a look at groups like comp.sys.ti where the > bulk of the info comes from the mailing list reposts and almost > everything else is spam. That is the reason why I decided to go with > a > mailing list rather than a newsgroup. It seems silly to argue about > the > group if the process has already been started - if it gets created it > will > either get used or not. If it passes I'll be one of the people > reading > it as I'm sure most of you will. > > Bill > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp > bill(a)booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw(a)u.washington.edu > http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw > >

27 years, 7 months

Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.c

by scott＠saskatoon.com

> Well how about a "Computer Journal" all our own? > > Just an idea... and it really wouldn't take that much effort! I like this idea. Maybe it could be a group collaborative effort. (Another mailling list?) Besides articles relating to collecting, I think it would be really cool to try to obtain the rights to reprint some classic magazine articles that some of us never got to see, or were to shortsighted at the time to keep. (Construction type articles. Maybe some reviews.) (Are we talking about 'ink and paper' here or electronic? I was thinking 'ink and paper', but [html,pdf,whatever] wouldn't be bad either.) > Les ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott(a)cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott(a)saskatoon.com CANADA email: scott(a)cprompt.sk.ca -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

27 years, 7 months

Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Hi all, Due to the shocking absence of a computer collecting newsgroup (alt.folklore.computers is used a bit, but doesn't really apply), I'm submitting an RFD for rec.collecting.computers.classic. If anyone would like to be listed as a co-proponent, let me know. This may entail some work in assisting/monitoring the RFD process. The RFD will be cross-posted to classiccmp when complete. thanks Kai

27 years, 7 months

Replies to stuff...

by foxnhare＠goldrush.com

From: hellige <jeffh(a)eleventh.com> To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Atari prob, etc. > One thing about Atari 8bit stuff is a lot of it tended to use it's own > power rating on the power supply, and not really interchangeable > between most of it, it seems. I'll check the ratings on the 1200 xl in the FAQ maybe that was the problem... :/ --------- From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)crl.com> Subject: yo >First Annual Classic Computer Collector Conference >Why? BECAUSE! Does any hacker need a reason (well maybe the tried and true, "Because they say it's impossible.") > Next question... > Where? > Livermore, California (tentative...actual venue TBD) I could handle that. Hey that's were alot of the companies started. > When? > Late Summer 1997 (possibly August) > Who? > Organizer: Sam Ismail > Sponsors: Pending (targeted sponsors will be > Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories and > other computer manufacturers in the local area > and Silicon Valley). Apple could use a little more good P.R... (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) > What? > The Classic Computer Collector Convention is > slated to be the premier computer faire to > attend to meet with fellow classic computer > collector geeks, buy/sell/trade classic computer > stuff, exchange classic computer software and > classic computer hints and tips, attend > workshops on classic computer preservation and > restoration, and of course see classic > computers. > Some show features: > Classic Computer Spotlight - every year a > legendary system is chosen to be heralded as the > classic computer of the year (nominees for the > first show are Altair 8800; Apple ][; Commodore > PET; ???). Hey how about a demo contest too? Have you ever seen those european groups' parties, (search the web there are some good pages about them) looks pretty cool to me. Kinda like a hackerfest. > Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an > individual from the annals of computer lore will > be chosen as the Classic Computer Pioneer of the > year. This would be someone who had a lasting > legacy or made a historical impact on the > computer industry, but is not necessarily active > anymore (ie. this precludes Bill Gates from > qualifying). Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? As I said Apple could use the P.R. (maybe get the Steves...) Unfortunately Gary Kildall (creator of CP/M) died a couple years back (but would be a kick to honor him), Chuck Peddle was the creator of the 6502 microprocessor and Commodore PET among other things. > Classic Computer Museum - A classic museum will > be set-up on-site to allow interested public to > see what classic computers are all about. > Attendees will be encouraged to submit their > favorite classics for display during the show. Better have tight security there if we bring our 'babies' to sow off. > The success of the show will depend on > attendance. Admission will be enough to cover > the costs of running the show (including lease > of the venue, advertising, etc). Although there > won't be much of a vending atmosphere (unless > people want to haul their stuff from all over > the country) space will be sold for such > purposes. That sounds reasonable. > More details as I come up with them. I would > really appreciate feedback from the patrons of > this discussion group. Any ideas, comments, > suggestions are welcome (please suggest a better > name!) The only computer show I attended was the World of Commodore in San Francisco in 1987, since then most of the shows have been feeding frenzies for developers and not at all interested in the computer classics. I would attend and I'm sure I could get others in the area interested. ---------- From: Doug Spence <ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca> Subject: Re: Old Computer Books (was Re: Pets & Silly Game) > ...But the only PET books this library has are things like > collections of type-in programs for the PET, and books on using the PET in > an educational environment. Nothing good and technical. The technical ones are some of the hardest to locate, some of mine came from a Commodore Group weeding out their library, I bought them via mail. The most PET books I've come across are old college and school textbooks (anyone see "Hands-On BASIC with the Commodore PET?" yuk.) --- Subject: BBSes on old hardware and SuperVIC > (re: VIC-20) I'd put at least 32K in it, with a memory > protection toggle on the RAM so that it could run images of cartridges > from disk. There is a file I think on funet.fi's FTP that describes and internal mod that does just that. :) --- Subject: PETs etc. > If only I could find such things. I suspect that if I took a trip to > Toronto I'd have much better luck in all of my searches for old computer > hardware, software, and books, but the chances of finding PET stuff in > particular would go up a hundred fold. (What with TPUG, the Toronto PET > Users Group, etc.) True, that was a very good Commodore region. > I have a feeling that computer ownership wasn't nearly as common in > Montreal in the early days as it was in most other major North American > cities... I would believe that, I think it depnds on what stores, groups were in the area as well as what computers were first brought in. (Keeping up with the Jones') > (re-piggybacking chips) > Uh... was he looking for data redundancy or something? ;) No he had some dead RAMS and got tired of swapping chips, and figured if he piggybacked two he would at least get one good one out of it. :/ > I intend to write the software on my own, but fast serial routines might > come in handy. I want to at least get 2400bps out of the thing. Most of the BASIC boards I have is up to 1200 baud, I know for 2400 you probably have to tweak the timing registers, cause the computer does not provide decent numbers. > I don't think that'll be a problem for the VIC-20, as it's faster at I/O than the > 64. I'll probably have to put in a lot of RAM, though, to act as buffers > for the slow disk drives. :) There have been a bunch of articles for adding 256k to 1 meg internally to the 64 and bank-switching, not sure if that's possible on the VIC though, they may be adaptable. > Do you mean the music teacher's programs, or the Cursor tapes? :) YES! YES! > I think I have copies of tapes #1 to #8, plus a couple of games from later tapes. > I wish I had the originals... but these were copies made from the high > school music teacher's subscription. :) Mine are also from High School and I can say I have programs from 13 to into the 20s I think. No originals here either *sniff* > Ouranos! is an awesome game, BTW. I had the PET print up the listing and I > intended to port it to the Amiga, but I never got around to it. I don't > think it'd be the same, though, on anything but another PET with glaring > white screen. Weather War II for the Commodore-64 is a re-write of Ouranos! nifty little character graphic castles, SID sound, sprites were used to add some foliage (just for looks) > What's the serial number on that machine? Gotta go to storage and read it... Not in the 'original documentation' envelope. > I have a feeling it's a lot older than this PET. Both of my PETs have quite > ordinary-looking ROMs. > (The one with the mini keyboard has the 1.0 BASIC ROMs, with the '*** > COMMODORE BASIC ***' message and the other one has upgrade ROMs.) My 'calculator keyboard' PET has 1.0 too. I have the schematics and diagnostics for it too... Has been modified with a reset switch has ability to use a skyles add-on keyboard (you have to load and run a program first), and of course, expandamem. > Um... hold it... how are the 4116's arranged? You probably said, but of > course I can't go back into my mailbox to read that while I'm replying to > this one (I knew there was a reason I should my system to do this > locally!). If they're 16K by 4, then that certainly WOULD be more than > 8K. :) I think those are only 8kx1. I did look at my expandamem board and the chips with the plates on them had (c)Mostek written. > (RE: Visible Memory Board deveoped for KIM-1 first.) > Wow, that's incredible. Not only did I not think that PETs that old could > do high-res graphics in any way, but to learn that one could do so on the > KIM-1! I'm flabberghasted. ;) > The KIM is something I'd really like to find somewhere. So would I. > I have this terrible fear, though, of coming across one in some electronic surplus > shop and not recognizing it. :) I had nightmares about coming across an incredible Commodore stash in some store and not having any money. *gasp!* > (re: MTU visible memory ad) > BTW, I'd love a copy of that ad. Send it to: > Doug Spence > 85 Devon Road > Baie d'Urfe, Que. > H9X 2X3 > CANADA Heck I'll toss in some disks full of other goodies too. But don't hold your breath I tend to froget doing things (like mailing stuff) for a spell. ---------- From: "Mr. Self Destruct" <more(a)camlaw.rutgers.edu> Subject: Re: weekend additions > The plus/4 could run *some* very simple basic programs from 64/vic-20 land > but even that was a chore if I remember correctly because of the different > ways the computers "tokenized" basic. I think the main difference was between the 128 and the Plus/4s extended BASIC, but was compatible with the 64. > There was also a "parallel" drive for this > computer (well I think there was) called an SFX-1??? something or other. The parallel one was the 1551; the SFX 1001 was a 1 meg floppy drive the the PET using an IEEE-488 interface (esentally an 8250 with only one disk drive.) ---------- From: "Mr. Self Destruct" <more(a)camlaw.rutgers.edu> Subject: Funky looking mouse and other TCF stuff... >1 CBM 8032 $5 > (this things got some kind of memory board that plugs into the CPU > socket and a parallel interface) Wait a minute here, are you sure it's not a RS-232 interface? It could be an 8032 upgraded to a SuperPET. If it is a SuperPET there would be a 6809 processor as well as the 6502 in there and you have 96k of RAM accessible (via bank switching). Keyboard my have some odd characters on it too (to support the languages it could run such as APL, Fortran, COBOL, etc.) Of course to run the languages you would need the disks and a drive. (I don't have them) Otherwise the daughterboard could be memory to bring it up to 96k (via bank switching) or as I mentioned a visible memory board - the indication for it is that the monitor will plug into the daughter board and then the daughterboard plugs into the motherboard's video output connector. - :) BTW REALLY GOOD PRICE! Larry Anderson P.S. I think I'm gonna start writing a FAQ about the Commodore PET. Will let you guys now when I get it on-line. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

27 years, 7 months

by KFergason＠aol.com

In a message dated 97-04-29 11:22:24 EDT, you write: << Yes, I realized that. The PDP-8 and PDP-11 are definitely worthy of mention, but did they really make the impact and have significance equal to the Altair and the others? I'm sure you could argue to that effect. Care to? >> someone can correct me if necessary, but weren't the first PDP's pretty "important" in that respect? Suddenly, universities could have their own systems. or maybe I am dreaming, mixing stories from various books. Kelly

27 years, 7 months

by jeffh＠eleventh.com

On 29-Apr-97, classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu wrote: >I'll second his nomination, and with great trepidation add Jay Miner to >the list. :) I think Jay Miner is definately worthy of inclusion since he did much of the design of the Atari 8bit machines, such as the 400/800, and he is generally considered the father of the Amiga line. Out of curiosity, is anyone willing to nominate Jack Tremiel? <sp?> Jeff jeffh(a)eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles.

27 years, 7 months

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test-drb May 1997