=============================================================================
ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List
Part 2 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy
List Specific FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.6.3
Last Update: 12/10/97
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available
answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is
Maintained by Bill Whitson <bill(a)booster.u.washington.edu>. The infor-
mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but,
in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain-
ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible
and often failed ;).
This FAQ is Part 2 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented
deals with regular day-to-day issues on the list.
If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please
contact me at the address above.
A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://haliotis.bothellwashington.edu/classiccmp or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.188 in the
directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as cclpart2.faq.
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Updates: Added: section 1.8
Changed: section 1.3, 1.5, 1.7, 3.1
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. About the List
-----------------
1.1 What is ClassicCmp?
1.2 Why is ClassicCmp?
1.3 What's a Classic Computer?
1.4 Who runs this thing?
1.5 How come I can never reach this so-called list operator?
1.6 Don't you know you're duplicating what others have done?
1.7 How much mail should I expect to get on this list?
1.8 How long has this list been around?
2. Protocol and Etiquette
-------------------------
2.1 What can I talk about?
2.2 Can I talk about PCs?
2.3 Can I talk about Mini/MainFrames?
2.4 Can I post advertisements?
2.5 Can I ask people to give me their computers?
2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x?
2.7 Where should I look before posting a dumb question?
2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS?!?
2.9 Can I post trophy lists?
2.10 Can I use obscene languagein my posts?
3. Misc List Information
------------------------
3.1 How many subscribers are there?
3.2 How many subscribers use machine x?
3.3 Is this list archived?
4. ClassicCmp Resources on the Net
----------------------------------
4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a Web Site?
4.2 How come the Web Site is so ugly?
4.3 Does ClassicCmp have an FTP Site?
Collecting
----------
5.1 Where can I find Classic Computers?
5.2 How much is machine x worth?
5.3 Will thousands of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them?
5.4 I don't understand anything. Help!
=============================================================================
1.1 What is ClassicCmp?
It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center
on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place
for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions
dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are
often better handled in private e-mail ;)
1.2 Why is ClassicCmp?
Uh, why not? There are lots of people who love these old machines and it
seems like a fun idea to get together and talk about them.
1.3 What is a Classic Computer?
_Any computer_ that has not been manufactured for 10 years is a classic.
This definition is one I made up and it's entirely arbitrary. It seems to
work OK, so I've kept it.
This definition has come under fire recently but remains the guideline.
Remember that it is certainly flexible. The idea is to keep conversation
on track, not to restrict what you can talk about.
1.4 Who runs this thing?
That would be me, Bill Whitson - email bcw(a)u.washington.edu.
1.5 How come I can never reach this so-called list operator?
Sorry. It does often take me several days (sometimes weeks!) to respond
to e-mail. I am often away for days at a time and when I'm not I'm still
probably busy doing real work. I receive more than double the amount of
mail that goes to the list in the form of spam, bounced messages, odd
user requests, general bitching, etc. and I still have to filter out the
messages I actually have to respond to, to remain employed ;). I will get
back to you eventually.
As an update, I've been _really_ hard to reach for the last couple months.
Hopefully, this has now changed. Please keep in mind that this list is
recreation for me, and I sometimes cannot devote any time to it. This
does not indicate a lack of interest in the people or activities
involved.
1.6 Do you know you're just duplicating work other people have done.
I get a "reinventing the wheel" e-mail at least once a week. If you show
me another group of computer collectors that claims a membership as large
as this one I'll show you a group that must be very hard to find. Obviously
there are other groups of collectors and I'm cheering them on - I don't see
a problem with duplicating and reduplicating lore that's quickly disappearing
anyway.
1.7 How much mail should I expect to get on this list?
The daily load varies widely from about 20 messages to over 100. Average
seems to be about (I haven't checked lately, will update) messages a day.
There are times where the message load peaks for as much as a week.
1.8 How long has this list been around?
The first message went out March 13, 1997.
[][][][][][][][][]
2.1 What can I talk about?
Anything related to classic computers as defined above. There are many
people on this list that really know what they're talking about, so you might
want to check facts before you start shooting off messages. It's also a
good idea to actually read the FAQs and check the archives a little before
posting.
2.2 Can I talk about PCs?
Yes. PCs which haven't been manufactured for 10 years. Even then, be
aware that in many cases you would get a better response posting to PC
newsgroups.
2.3 Can I talk about Minis/MainFrames/WorkStations/Gigantic Talking Boxes
with Flashing Lights & Coundown Timers/Robots from Alien Civilizations?
There has apparently been some misconception that this is a list for
micros/home computers only. You'll note I said "misconception".
2.4 Can I post advertisements?
Sure. As long as they're related to _classic_ computers. And, of course,
use your brain - don't spam. Also, please state up-front whether or not
you are willing to ship the items you sell outside your country as there
are members of this list in a number of different countries.
If your post is commercial, please be sure to indicate that in some way
in the subject line.
2.5 Can I ask people to sell/give me their computers?
Sure. But you're not likely to get a very nice response. Mine, for example,
would be: Get your own f***ing computer! There are several people on
usenet who will vouch for this. When someone posts about one of their
machines without offering to sell it - it's really a pretty good bet that
they're not secretly trolling for offers. See section 5 for info on how to
find yourself a computer.
2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x.
Yes. Be aware that it may be difficult to help you fix things if you don't
have much knowledge of how computers work or of how to use basic
electronics tools (VOM/DMM, soldering iron, EPROM burner, etc). I'm no whiz
with this stuff and the little knowledge I have has come from asking
questions and then buying books to find out what "Simple... Just check
the voltage on the caps in the PS to make sure one of them isn't flaking
out!" exactly means.
2.7 Where can I look before posting a dumb question?
It might be a good idea to take a look at what's available in the Archive
section of the ClassicCmp web site (see below).
2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?!
(Or, in general, be unreasonable with reagard to advocacy posts?)
Check your anti-MS baggage at the door, please. For that matter, drop
any posts that serve only to perpetuate the holy wars.
2.9 Can I post trophy lists?
Some people like to read other peoples' trophy lists, some do not. There
have been times when most people have been interested in these and times
when many wanted to see them banned. So, they remain - appreciated or
tolerated and somewhat controversial. Can't make everyone happy all the
time ;)
2.10 Can I use obscene language in my posts?
Yes. Although I'm sure many people would prefer you did not. A number of
people have complained about this. I'm not going to outlaw swearing - now
that I've informed you that it bothers people you can make your choice.
[][][][][][][][][][]
3.1 How many subscribers are there?
Around 210 and changing daily.
3.2 How many subscribers use machine x?
Check the web site (see below). The Classic Computer Encyclopedia shows
the number of machines registered by subscribers.
3.3 Is this list archived?
Yes. The archives are available on the FTP site (see below) in the
directory /pub/classiccmp/archive. The file name format indicates
the month/year of the archive. Keep in mind that they are quite large.
[][][][][][][][][][]
4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a web site?
Yep. http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp
4.2 How come the web site is so ugly?
How come a PET is so ugly? Who cares as long as it works?
4.3 Does ClassicCmp have an FTP site?
Yes. Anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.188. Look in /pub/classiccmp. There's
not much there that's not available on the web site. I'm starting to
load old drivers and system disks on occasion. There is an incoming
directory which subscribers may use for ClassicCmp-related file transfers
if needed.
[][][][][][][][][][]
5.1 Where can I find classic computers?
The best places seem to be thrift stores and swap meets. These are
closely followed by pawn shops and mom and pop computer stores.
The holy grails are electronics scrap yards - but they tend to be wary
of individual pick-and-choosers. Oh yeah - garage sales!
5.2 How much is machine x worth?
Precisely as much as you'll pay for it. Oh, you're selling it? Then,
precisely as much as I'll pay for it. Seriously, no one prices these any
more. I have an old Computer Blue Book that lists many classic
computers but the prices are just ridiculous. Some machines (Apple
Lisa's, old old Mini's, and unreleased prototypes) are starting down
the road toward their original selling prices but it's unlikely that
most will ever be worth more than the cost of their components.
5.3 Will 1000's of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them?
Yes. This is the impetus behind every collector's tireless and selfless
effort. Each machine we fail to save has it's gold parts mercilessly
hacked off and sold (just like rhino horns - and look at the rhinos).
The remainder is then sent to China to be made into bicycle spokes (you
probably think I'm joking). Save a computer! Act now! Remind your
SO of the rhino and cuter, fuzzier animals. It might work.
In all seriousness - there are a large (and growing) number of so called
"computer and electronics 'recyclers'" who take usable computers and
recycle them into "reusable scrap". Small amounts of gold, silver, and
platinum are extracted and the remainder of the material is generally
just marketed to less wasteful countries.
5.4 I don't understand anything. Help!
Don't worry - you're not the only one. Reading this list, old magazines,
books and whatever else you can get your hands on is the first step.
Once you reach a critical mass of knowledge thigs get a lot easier.
=============================================================================
Haven't they made 3 1/2 to 5 1/4 rails for lo, these many years?
I have a box full of WD 103 controller cards somewhere...just not sure
where. I _do_ know where my ISA IDE cards are.
...but where are these supposed to be sent?
manney
----------
> From: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
> To: Manney
> Subject: Re: Donation For School Wanted
> Date: Wednesday, December 10, 1997 8:51 PM
>
> Yes; but then I'd have to ship the controller cards as well. These only
> have the 5 1/2" (or whatever) drivebays; the ones that fit the XTs; etc.
I
> think that they're half-height.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Maslin <donm(a)cts.com>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Date: Thursday, December 11, 1997 1:25 AM
> Subject: Re: Donation For School Wanted
>
>
> >On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, PG Manney wrote:
> >
> >> Sent where?
> >>
> >> Since those are 286's, they could be outfitted with cheapo IDE's such
as
> >> ST-157's and 125's as well...IDE paddle cards are common.
> >>
> >Actually, that is probably the smarter thing to do. Smaller drives,
less
> >shipping weight and less postage. Also newer than MFM/RLL and more
> >readily available, and about equally inexpensive.
> >
> > - don
> >
>
Greetings:
I hope this isn't too far off the goal of this list... I am hoping that
some of my friends from this great list might be able to help me out. I am
desperately looking to buy 1 or 2 IBM compatible 386 machines. The reason
is, I am looking to get a fairly low cost computer system for my brothers
who are currently freshman and sophomore in college. Yes, I know, I tried
the TRS-80, Commodore, and Apple, etc., route with them already, but my
parents are looking to get them some fairly recent computers for a
Christmas gift. I guess what they are looking for is 386/486 machines,
with at least 4-8meg ram, Windows 3.1 (yuk!), 200 meg+ hard drive, and
possible some old dot matrix printers. I of course have printers so that
isn't a priority. But, the parents are willing to pay for them, so... if
any of you have 1 or 2 old 386s setups around, PLEASE get in touch with me
ASAP, with your offering price + shipping, and I know we could work out a
deal. Software also isn't needed, as I have a $%!^ load, but I would like
to get something that is fairly already setup, complete, and ready to go.
Payment could be to in with a couple of days and would like to receive the
units ASAP. Of course, this is all sight-unseen, so I'll trust your
judgements and descriptions.
Thank you very much for your consideration on these wants. I hope you
could wade through my b.s. and figure out what I'm looking for. :-)
Thanks,
CORD
//*=====================================================================++
|| Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE ||
|| (402) 872- 3272 coslor(a)bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 ||
|| Classic computer software and hardware collector ||
|| Autograph collector ||
++=====================================================================*//
Atari is now making games for all the game platforms. They still retain
the rights!
----------
From: Don Maslin
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: Re: JTS (was: Classic Computer Rescue Squad)
Date: Friday, November 14, 1997 3:06PM
On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Uncle Roger wrote:
> At 01:19 PM 11/14/97 +0000, you wrote:
> >Well, it won't help you now, but a company called JTS Corporation has
the best
> >HDDs I've seen in a LONG time. I was using a WD Caviar 2.0 GB, and it
was
>
> For a little classic content, JTS is the company that acquired the
remnants
> of Atari Corp. Haven't done anything with it, that I know of, but in the
> future...?
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
>
> Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
> sinasohn(a)ricochet.net that none but madmen know."
> Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
> San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
For a little more 'classic content', the "JT" in JTS is for Jugi Tandon
of oldtime floppy disk drive fame and later hard disk and PC clones.
The
hard disk rights were sold to Western Digital at the time that they
bailed out of the card making business. Small world, ain't it?
- don
donm(a)cts.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
*
Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives
Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society
Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology.
Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--
*
see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj
Perhaps needless to say, old MFM and even < 100 meg IDE drives are
throw-away items at today's computer shops. There's a mom-and-pop
computer store near here that gave me a box of old drives. They
regularly toss old 86/286/386 and even 486/33 machines. I'm in a
town of 6,000, I can't imagine what's being tossed in the big city.
- John
Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>
Also; while you've been gone; sometimes discussion wanders "off track"; so I
think that because not everyone knows the best newsgroups; etc. the FAQ
could possibly include a list of good ones; to take current
problems/questions to. That should keep the discussion "on track"; making
it more enjoyable for everyone.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Whitson <bcw(a)u.washington.edu>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, December 11, 1997 6:11 AM
Subject: Re: FAQ
>
>Allright, I'll take a crack at revision for next time.
>I agree that recyclers can be great to deal with - I never
>thought this reflected badly on them.
>
>Recycling is what they do and they do it in the most
>efficient way they can. It's sometimes tragic to see all
>that history shoved in a compactor, but that's why we
>collect these things.
>
>-------------------------------------------------
>Bill Whitson bcw(a)u.washington.edu
> (mail may come from alternate addresses)
> Classic Computers List Operator/Owner
>http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp
>
>
>On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, William Donzelli wrote:
>
>> >In all seriousness - there are a large (and growing) number of so called
>> >"computer and electronics 'recyclers'" who take usable computers and
>> >recycle them into "reusable scrap". Small amounts of gold, silver, and
>> >platinum are extracted and the remainder of the material is generally
>> >just marketed to less wasteful countries.
>>
>> I have always had a problem with this part of the FAQ. These people are
>> our friends, as they often get the real gems. They do not always get the
>> big stuff - one time I saw a bunch of Tempest rated PCs, and NeXT
>> equipment, all on the same pile.
>>
>> The precious metal content of a big mini or mainframe can be quite a lot
>> (check out <www.mrsscrap.com> and you will see what I mean), so the way
>> they recycle is all based on ecomomics. Obviously, the gold is stripped
>> first - it is the cream. The copper is probably next on the list,
obtained
>> by grinding the circuit boards and wires into powder. The rest is not
>> worth it, literally. It is far too labor intensive to completely strip a
>> computer down to basic metals - the money made would all go into paying
>> the grunts! The labor in China is very cheap (actually, the strippers are
>> young men that work like dogs for 2-3 years to make thier dowry money),
>> thus the frames, disks, and power supplies get shipped overseas.
>>
>> William Donzelli
>> william(a)ans.net
>>
>>
>
I'm looking for a replacement PX-8. Mine seems to have finally died, but
since it did what we wanted perfectly, and I still have the peripherals
for it, I'd rather just replace it than pay big bucks for lots of bang
that we don't need.
Please let me know if you have a working one that you no longer need but
don't want to consign to the land fill - I could give it a good home.
I'm currently in Haifa, Israel, but If any Americans have one we could
arrange for the unit to be sent to one of three addresses in a) San Diego,
Calif., b) San Rafeal, Calif. or c) Providence, Rhode Island all in the
U.S.A. from where we get it sent to us by family members.
For European sellers we may just try the airmail system and see
how it goes...
warm regards,
Bryn Deamer
14 Shunamit St.
Haifa 34562
Israel
bryn(a)bwc.org
-------------------------------------------------------------------
ATTN: Classic Computer Rescue Crewmembers in the Dover, Delaware area!
Take note of this missive I found on Usenet. If I were ANYwhere
near the east coast, I'd already have visited the place.
This is a terrific opportunity for those of you who want to get
your hands dirty on DEC hardware to do it. And, if anyone goes down
there and finds an M7552 module (RRD50 controller), please snare it
for me! ;-)
Attachment follows.
-=-=- <snip> -=-=-
OK. The powers that be no longer want to store this stuff, so the
time has come to make it go away.
We have around 5000 square feet of Vax and PDP equipment
that needs to find new homes. It's mostly older Qbus and Unibus
stuff, so don't expect to find state of the art stuff in here.
There is way too much stuff to list, but in a nutshell, there are
vaxen from 11/730 up to 8820, with many microvaxen in ba23's
and ba123's. There are many unibus pdp-11's, and some
pdp-8 stuff.
There is also a DEC-system 2020.
Many peripherals. TONS of books, manuals, and printsets.
Miles of tape, zillions of disk packs, many 8" floppies, etc.
If someone is looking for something in particular, let me
know and I can see if it is there. Your best bet, however,
is to come walk around and see what you can use.
Equipment is free for the taking and is located in Dover,
Delaware. Don't respond if you are only interested in
scrap. We want to get rid of it, but don't want to see
the stuff junked. Hell, we can junk the stuff ourselves
if that is what we wanted to do. We thought there should
be people out there that can use this equipment.
take one piece, or take everything. First come, first
served. You haul. Unfortunately, we do not have time to
package things for shipping, although if the item is small
enough, and you make a good enough case, exceptions
may be possible. :-)
We are interested in moving this stuff quickly, so please
respond if interested. Email address has been purposely
munged to prevent spam. Re-assemble the address
below to respond.
Thanks,
Jim Bender
jbender at
corpamerica dot com
At 10:06 PM 12/9/97 -0800, you wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Sam Ismail wrote:
>Actually, I should say a couple things about LapLink since I have used it
>once. It is easier to use than INTERSVR. The best thing about it is that
I've used LapLink a fair bit (Did you know Traveling Software got their
start doing m100 programs?) and I have to say I love it. I even use it to
move things around on the same computer, or just to find the total size of a
set of subdirectories.
It is not, however, a network solution. (At least not the older version
that I have.) If you want to move files around between machines, buy
laplink. If you want to share disks among various machines (i.e., a
network), get something else. It all depends on what you want to do.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
Hello. After paying a visit to the only local High School; someone made a comment about how their 286's didn't work. From an inspection of the school; it looks like 486's are used in half the labs; 2-4 286's and 1 386 per class room; and the process of Pentiums is being integrated. Some in the most recent wing do have one. But anyway; the 286s; as you might guess... are DYING. These are all PCs; and the problem is in HDDs. Now; I only have one MFM HDD handy; which I'll be installing soon; but there are 2 other malfuctioning PCs that I know of. Remember; this is for a high school; for the Department of Defence dependants; and a few others, but their funding is not... ideal. So if you could please just send a MFM HDD, or; if you have them; two (probably of the 20-40MB vairety; the standard sofware is a DOS menulite; WP51 for DOS; Qbasic; Printshop; etc. so it's not heavy; but for DOS 5.0 (what they have) I'd guess that a 10MB would be pushing it.); and then you'ld have elementary and high school (it's mixed) students smiling.
Thanks in advance;
Tim D. Hotze
