10 Oct
2016
10 Oct
'16
5:08 p.m.
Would anyone care to donate floppy disk flux-transition images for use
in development of utility software and for regression-testing the
same? It would be much appreciated.
Images from "normal" floppy formats (IBM FM and MFM, e.g., TRS-80, IBM
PC, or almost anything using 177x/179x/279x or 765/8272 family
controllers) and obscure formats (DEC RX02, Victor 9000) would be
welcome. I'd especially like to get IBM 23FD "Minnow" disk images, but
I'm not holding my breath for that.
If you send me any images, a brief description of what they might
contain and/or what system they're from would be helpful. I don't need
to be able to do anything with the content; I just want to verify that
I can extract the content from flux images into sector images.
If you send me any images that you don't want made public, let me know.
Thanks!
Eric
10 Oct
10 Oct
5:20 p.m.
Anyone know how you can locate a Discferret and Catweasel?
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:08 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar
at gmail.com> wrote:
Would anyone care to donate floppy disk flux-transition images for use
in development of utility software and for regression-testing the
same? It would be much appreciated.
Images from "normal" floppy formats (IBM FM and MFM, e.g., TRS-80, IBM
PC, or almost anything using 177x/179x/279x or 765/8272 family
controllers) and obscure formats (DEC RX02, Victor 9000) would be
welcome. I'd especially like to get IBM 23FD "Minnow" disk images, but
I'm not holding my breath for that.
If you send me any images, a brief description of what they might
contain and/or what system they're from would be helpful. I don't need
to be able to do anything with the content; I just want to verify that
I can extract the content from flux images into sector images.
If you send me any images that you don't want made public, let me know.
Thanks!
Eric
5:41 p.m.
I see a CW 4 and Discferret sitting on my bench, along with a Supercard Pro.
I've got a dead CW 3 and a working one ..somewhere that I wanted to do A/B
comparisons with.
Eric, I had been trying to find time to set up the diskferret, since that
was what you originally asked for, but I can more easily do CW right now,
though I should go through the exercise of getting it running under Linux,
which is a pain because they stole someone elses PCI ID for the card, so
you have to blacklist the other device.
Do you have a prefered CW transition image format?
On 10/10/16 2:20 PM, Kurt K wrote:
Anyone know how you can locate a Discferret and
Catweasel?
7:12 p.m.
Hi Eric,
I am a newbie to Kryoflux (it just arrived this past Friday) but I did
manage to set it up and try a couple of regular disks. The following link
is to my Victor 9000 CP/M-86 boot disk, if I did it correctly. I also
included the log file.
http://vintagecomputer.ca/download/victor_9000/CP-M-86.
Victor9000-Kryoflux.Stream.zip
I wasn't familiar with your tool but a quick search turned it up on
GitHub. I also have an FDADAP floppy disk adapter for 8" disks but haven't
tried that yet. I also haven't figured out how to determine disk
characteristics to make floppies yet but I'll learn. I also have several
disk formats in 3.5", 5.25" and 8" with equipment to match in most cases.
So, in this case, I could try out the resulting IMD file by recreating it
and running it on my Victor 9000, if that is helpful.
I bought the Kryoflux to save my disks so I'm happy to help with whatever
you need.
Santo
On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 6:48 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 10, 2016 3:41 PM, "Al Kossow" <aek
at bitsavers.org> wrote:
Do you have a prefered CW transition image
format?
No preference, as I haven't dealt with them at all yet.
7:22 p.m.
You haven't actually decoded it, you've just captured flux changes.
How do you know what is there is actually correct?
I'm also puzzled when you refer to "IMD"
Dave Dunfield's utility?
That won't work on a Victor 9000 disk
On 10/10/16 4:12 PM, Santo Nucifora wrote:
http://vintagecomputer.ca/download/victor_9000/CP-M-86.
Victor9000-Kryoflux.Stream.zip
7:58 p.m.
On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 7:22 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
You haven't actually decoded it, you've just
captured flux changes.
If I am not mistaken, I thought that's what Eric was requesting in his
original message.
How do you know what is there is actually correct?
I don't because I am new to the Kryoflux but the log looks okay so I was
hoping Eric would know if this was useful. I do know the disk that the
flux stream was taken from works because it's original and works in my
Victor 9000.
I'm also puzzled when you refer to
"IMD"
Dave Dunfield's utility?
I am referring to what the "fluxtoimd" GitHub page README file states. It
says "fluxtoimd.py is a Python 3 program to read floppy disk flux
transitions images, demodulate the data, and write the data to an ImageDisk
image file".
That won't work on a Victor 9000 disk
I was curious about that but I'm willing to give anything a try if it helps
the preservation process.
Santo
8:42 p.m.
On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 7:22 PM, Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
> You haven't actually decoded it, you've just captured flux changes.
On Mon, 10 Oct 2016, Santo Nucifora wrote:
If I am not mistaken, I thought that's what Eric
was requesting in his
original message.
Yes, I believe that what Eric is working on IS the decoding of
flux-transition disk images. In particular, those from disk recording
systems other than WD/NEC FDC compatible MFM.
> How do you know what is there is actually correct?
Until software is created to write it back to disk in its original format,
and test it in the original machine, we can not be sure.
HOWEVER, if Eric succeeds in decoding the Victor 9000 (aka Sirius)
recording format, then we can look at the content of the disk and get
reasonable assumptions.
I don't because I am new to the Kryoflux but the
log looks okay so I was
hoping Eric would know if this was useful. I do know the disk that the
flux stream was taken from works because it's original and works in my
Victor 9000.
I would not have too much confidence in that log.
But, those files, if they turn out to be good, seem to be what Eric is
asking for!
I'm also
puzzled when you refer to "IMD"
Dave Dunfield's utility?
I am referring to what the "fluxtoimd"
GitHub page README file states. It
says "fluxtoimd.py is a Python 3 program to read floppy disk flux
transitions images, demodulate the data, and write the data to an ImageDisk
image file".
That won't work on a Victor 9000 disk
I was curious about that but I'm willing to give anything a try if it helps
the preservation process.
12 Oct
12 Oct
6:06 a.m.
On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 6:42 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
What Eric is working on is software that can decode
disk formats that are
NOT necessarily WD/NEC FDC compatible! And writing a file similar to the
one created by IMD.
That will most certainly NOT then be convertible by IMD into a Victor 9000
disk!
That's a good explanation. I was thinking of it as non-standard use
of IMD format; the resulting IMD file would contain the logical
contents of the Victor 9000 disk, but because the IMD format doesn't
(yet) have suitable definitions for Victor 9000 format, the file would
purport to contain IBM-compatible MFM sectors.
I don't really have any plan for a way to convert these Victor 9000
pseudo-IMD files back into actual diskettes. I could write an
imdtoflux program as a counterpart to the fluxtoimd program, which
would help with a portion of the problem.
However, OTHER software, that understands the file
systems could then
extract files. For example, if it is successful, then it might be possible
to take the Victor9000 IMD file produced by fluxtoimd, run it through IMD to
write that content onto a disk in a WD/NEC compatible format with
similarities of parameters other than encoding (eg. Chromemco?), and then
read files from that disk using XenoCopy or equivalent.
I'm not sure how flexible XenoCopy is, but Victor 9000 format used
Zoned CAV, so tracks have varying numbers of sectors, from 11 to 19.
The pseudo-IMD file will preserve that organization. If the IMDU
program doesn't get upset by the variable number of sectors per track,
it might be able to extract the sector data into a raw binary
filesystem image. Assuming that MS-DOS on the Victor 9000 uses the
obvious mapping of FAT cluster numbers to track/head/sector, the
resulting raw binary filesystem image might be usable with existing
utilities for FAT filesystems, such as mtools.
There's always been such a bewildering variety of mappings of CP/M
blocks to track/head/sector that I wouldn't put any money on the same
conversion working for Victor 9000 CP/M-86 disks.
In both cases (MS-DOS and CP/M-86), if it proves necessary I'll whip
up another simple utility to convert the pseudo-IMD file into a usable
raw binary filesystem image.
13 Oct
13 Oct
6:39 a.m.
Hi Eric,
First off, thanks for attempting this. I spent last night trying to
recreate a disk using the CP/M-86 streams I had posted with the Kryoflux
and failed. I'm going to play with it a little until I can get a working
reproduction so I would not rely on those Kryoflux streams just yet. I am
guessing the only way I can reproduce a disk is through the Kryoflux
streams written back to a disk but I can't seem to do that.
I noticed that Discferret had a wiki page on the Victor 9000 format. It
looks like it handled the format but it looks like it is a dead project and
I'm guessing you can't get Discferret boards anymore. I was thinking of
trying some of the Commodore GCR formats to see if that might do it (being
that it is theoretically close except for the vartiable speed track part)
but it looks like you can't write back IMG files that it creates.
I'll have to do some playing around first but once I figure it out, I'll
let you know. Since this is the very first disk I am trying on the
Kryoflux, I'll pick something easy and try to reproduce the disk.
Santo
On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 6:06 AM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 6:42 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin
at xenosoft.com> wrote:
What Eric is working on is software that can
decode disk formats that are
NOT necessarily WD/NEC FDC compatible! And writing a file similar to the
one created by IMD.
That will most certainly NOT then be convertible by IMD into a Victor
9000
disk!
That's a good explanation. I was thinking of it as non-standard use
of IMD format; the resulting IMD file would contain the logical
contents of the Victor 9000 disk, but because the IMD format doesn't
(yet) have suitable definitions for Victor 9000 format, the file would
purport to contain IBM-compatible MFM sectors.
I don't really have any plan for a way to convert these Victor 9000
pseudo-IMD files back into actual diskettes. I could write an
imdtoflux program as a counterpart to the fluxtoimd program, which
would help with a portion of the problem.
However, OTHER software, that understands the
file systems could then
extract files. For example, if it is successful, then it might be
possible
to take the Victor9000 IMD file produced by
fluxtoimd, run it through
IMD to
write that content onto a disk in a WD/NEC
compatible format with
similarities of parameters other than encoding (eg. Chromemco?), and then
read files from that disk using XenoCopy or equivalent.
I'm not sure how flexible XenoCopy is, but Victor 9000 format used
Zoned CAV, so tracks have varying numbers of sectors, from 11 to 19.
The pseudo-IMD file will preserve that organization. If the IMDU
program doesn't get upset by the variable number of sectors per track,
it might be able to extract the sector data into a raw binary
filesystem image. Assuming that MS-DOS on the Victor 9000 uses the
obvious mapping of FAT cluster numbers to track/head/sector, the
resulting raw binary filesystem image might be usable with existing
utilities for FAT filesystems, such as mtools.
There's always been such a bewildering variety of mappings of CP/M
blocks to track/head/sector that I wouldn't put any money on the same
conversion working for Victor 9000 CP/M-86 disks.
In both cases (MS-DOS and CP/M-86), if it proves necessary I'll whip
up another simple utility to convert the pseudo-IMD file into a usable
raw binary filesystem image.
8:45 a.m.
On 13/10/16 11:39, Santo Nucifora wrote:
Hi Eric,
First off, thanks for attempting this. I spent last night trying to
recreate a disk using the CP/M-86 streams I had posted with the Kryoflux
and failed. I'm going to play with it a little until I can get a working
reproduction so I would not rely on those Kryoflux streams just yet. I am
guessing the only way I can reproduce a disk is through the Kryoflux
streams written back to a disk but I can't seem to do that.
I noticed that Discferret had a wiki page on the Victor 9000 format. It
looks like it handled the format but it looks like it is a dead project and
I'm guessing you can't get Discferret boards anymore.
I have about a dozen bare DiscFerret boards in my cupboard if anyone
wants one.
The board house ran them as hot-air levelled instead of silver-plated,
so they need the SMD pads for the RAM and FPGA (and ideally the PIC too)
cleaning with desolder wick before having those parts installed.
Electrically they're fine.
If you'd prefer to run your own boards (maybe you really like the gold
on purple that OSH Park do?), I have no problem with someone downloading
Eagle, running CAM and uploading the resulting Gerber files to a board
house. Student Me would have appreciated it if you'd have kicked him a
few quid for doing that, but these days... screw it, go have fun. It's
GPLv2 / open hardware. If we ever meet in person, say thank-you. That'll
do. :)
Heck, go make a box full of DiscFerrets for you and your friends. I'd
actually like to see people getting something out of it more than I'd
like to see money from it :)
There's even an ATE program (FerretTest) which can give you a rough idea
where to look for bad solder joints and things. Lots of things to help
you DIY boards (though I actually wrote it because I had a run of boards
with solder bridges on the RAM and FPGA which were causing read/write
issues).
As far as "dead project" goes, it's only dead in the sense that I have
no inclination to buy parts and assemble boards again. Anyone who's been
following DiscFerret for long enough knows the tale. The record's been
stuck so long it's worn through, so I won't repeat it :P
Regarding the API and microcode, they're not "dead", they're
"stable"! I
can't think of anything else to add. What more does it need than read
and write? Tell me!
TL/DR: it was a university final year project that kinda escaped the
lab. I'm glad you all still like it and talk about it. I never saw that
coming.
Cheers,
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
11:55 a.m.
HI Phil,
Sorry, I guess "dead" was a little harsh. Sorry for that. I'm glad to
know that it's still alive. I appreciate your reply and I'd love to have a
DiscFerret board (actually, if I could request two, that would be great in
case I mess one up). I do have a hot air solder station and have done
surface mount before so that shouldn't be a problem. I'd be happy to
report back as well.
I will email you off-list.
Santo
On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 8:45 AM, Philip Pemberton <classiccmp at philpem.me.uk>
wrote:
On 13/10/16 11:39, Santo Nucifora wrote:
Hi Eric,
First off, thanks for attempting this. I spent last night trying to
recreate a disk using the CP/M-86 streams I had posted with the Kryoflux
and failed. I'm going to play with it a little until I can get a working
reproduction so I would not rely on those Kryoflux streams just yet. I
am
guessing the only way I can reproduce a disk is
through the Kryoflux
streams written back to a disk but I can't seem to do that.
I noticed that Discferret had a wiki page on the Victor 9000 format. It
looks like it handled the format but it looks like it is a dead project
and
I'm guessing you can't get Discferret
boards anymore.
I have about a dozen bare DiscFerret boards in my cupboard if anyone
wants one.
The board house ran them as hot-air levelled instead of silver-plated,
so they need the SMD pads for the RAM and FPGA (and ideally the PIC too)
cleaning with desolder wick before having those parts installed.
Electrically they're fine.
If you'd prefer to run your own boards (maybe you really like the gold
on purple that OSH Park do?), I have no problem with someone downloading
Eagle, running CAM and uploading the resulting Gerber files to a board
house. Student Me would have appreciated it if you'd have kicked him a
few quid for doing that, but these days... screw it, go have fun. It's
GPLv2 / open hardware. If we ever meet in person, say thank-you. That'll
do. :)
Heck, go make a box full of DiscFerrets for you and your friends. I'd
actually like to see people getting something out of it more than I'd
like to see money from it :)
There's even an ATE program (FerretTest) which can give you a rough idea
where to look for bad solder joints and things. Lots of things to help
you DIY boards (though I actually wrote it because I had a run of boards
with solder bridges on the RAM and FPGA which were causing read/write
issues).
As far as "dead project" goes, it's only dead in the sense that I have
no inclination to buy parts and assemble boards again. Anyone who's been
following DiscFerret for long enough knows the tale. The record's been
stuck so long it's worn through, so I won't repeat it :P
Regarding the API and microcode, they're not "dead", they're
"stable"! I
can't think of anything else to add. What more does it need than read
and write? Tell me!
TL/DR: it was a university final year project that kinda escaped the
lab. I'm glad you all still like it and talk about it. I never saw that
coming.
Cheers,
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
10 Oct
10 Oct
5:33 p.m.
I have a pile of RX50 images at http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/VAX8200/
in SCP format if that helps...
- Josh
On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 2:08 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
Would anyone care to donate floppy disk
flux-transition images for use
in development of utility software and for regression-testing the
same? It would be much appreciated.
Images from "normal" floppy formats (IBM FM and MFM, e.g., TRS-80, IBM
PC, or almost anything using 177x/179x/279x or 765/8272 family
controllers) and obscure formats (DEC RX02, Victor 9000) would be
welcome. I'd especially like to get IBM 23FD "Minnow" disk images, but
I'm not holding my breath for that.
If you send me any images, a brief description of what they might
contain and/or what system they're from would be helpful. I don't need
to be able to do anything with the content; I just want to verify that
I can extract the content from flux images into sector images.
If you send me any images that you don't want made public, let me know.
Thanks!
Eric
6:46 p.m.
On Oct 10, 2016 3:33 PM, "Josh Dersch" <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
I have a pile of RX50 images at
http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/VAX8200/
in SCP format if that helps...
Thanks! I'm not familiar with SCP, but if the file format is documented,
I'll add support for it to fluxtoimd.
2912
days inactive
2915
days old
14 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
classiccmp＠philpem.me.uk -
derschjo＠gmail.com -
kurtk7＠centurylink.net -
santo.nucifora＠gmail.com -
spacewar＠gmail.com