22 Jan
1999
22 Jan
'99
4:46 p.m.
Actually, there was a thingy called PC/IX which ran on
those non
memory-managed systems. I actually managed to snag a copy a few years ago.
Well, and of course there's Minix (where Linux started)...
Any Unix clones for 8080/Z80 systems? It ought to be doable, given that the
original Unix was done on a 64KB address space machine...
- Joe
22 Jan
22 Jan
5:04 p.m.
Damn. I'm home and can't look it up... But I believe I recall something
called (IIRC) "Micronix" (or something similar) that ran on a Godbout
or Morrow system. I have some hardware documentation for the system
that ran it - got it in anticipation of getting one of the S-100 CPU
boards.
The system had a memory paging system on top of a Z-80 and included
some fairly sophisticated protection (both memory and I/O) that would
have permitted a Unix-like system to operate securely.
I'll dig it up next week.
Gary
At 10:46 PM 1/22/99 -0800, you wrote:
Actually, there
was a thingy called PC/IX which ran on those non
memory-managed systems. I actually managed to snag a copy a few years ago.
Well, and of course there's Minix (where Linux started)...
Any Unix clones for 8080/Z80 systems? It ought to be doable, given that the
original Unix was done on a 64KB address space machine...
- Joe 
23 Jan
23 Jan
12:24 a.m.
New subject: OT: NeXT help needed
If anyone would be willing to help me out outside the list get my NeXT
and modem up and running I'd really appreciate it. The FAQ's and news
groups have not been of much use. For some reason my very sincere and not
completely stupid questions have been virtually ignored on usenet. Even
the people at the university that I bought it from have an odd angry
impatience around these lovely black boxes. Is this what happens when you
stare at NeXTstep too long? one becomes snotty and unwilling to share
wisdom? I know thats not the case in this list so I'm begging for help
from the kind people on it....
TIA
colan
P.S. thanks to everyone who has been responding to my INFORMER terminal
questions. I'll do some more experiments with it this weekend.
6:58 p.m.
On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Gary Oliver wrote:
Damn. I'm home and can't look it up... But I
believe I recall something
called (IIRC) "Micronix" (or something similar) that ran on a Godbout
or Morrow system. I have some hardware documentation for the system
that ran it - got it in anticipation of getting one of the S-100 CPU
boards.
The system had a memory paging system on top of a Z-80 and included
some fairly sophisticated protection (both memory and I/O) that would
have permitted a Unix-like system to operate securely.
Sounds very interesting! Let us know when you dig up the info.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 01/15/99]
26 Jan
26 Jan
5:23 a.m.
Well, I found my documentation for the hardware. It was called an MPZ80
cpu from Morrow Designs. Basic information:
S-100 (IEEE 696) bus
4Mhz Z80
optional 9512 Floating Point (remember these?)
24 bit address space
onboard mem of 2kbytes of ROM and 1kbyte of ram
"Sophisticated hardware memory management cirtuitry..."
"Sohpisticated hardware trap mechanism..."
User applications were divided into 16 4K pages, with up to 16 task
memory maps resident on board simultaneously (up to 1mbyte addressed
at a time by memory mapping hardware.) Board could put out an additional
4 bits of address as a "bank number" associated with a task.
Pages could be marked as "no access", "execute only", "read
only" or
"full access."
Manual was written in 1982, so this was fairly sophisticated for it's
time. In the binder, I also have documents for:
Wunderbuss Input/Output Controller Technical Manual
MM65K Memory Board User's Manual
Expandoram III Unit Publication (from SDSystems, not Morrow)
Disk Jockey 2D User's Manual
Winchester Disk Systems User's Manual
I actually have the hardware for the Winchester Disk System - it was the
controller I used to run my Big, Enormous, 27 Megabyte disk on my CP/M
system (SA4000 - 2 14inch platters! Big sucker.)
Gary
At 11:04 PM 1/22/99 -0800, you wrote:
Damn. I'm home and can't look it up... But I
believe I recall something
called (IIRC) "Micronix" (or something similar) that ran on a Godbout
or Morrow system. I have some hardware documentation for the system
that ran it - got it in anticipation of getting one of the S-100 CPU
boards.
The system had a memory paging system on top of a Z-80 and included
some fairly sophisticated protection (both memory and I/O) that would
have permitted a Unix-like system to operate securely.
I'll dig it up next week.
Gary
5:59 a.m.
New subject: AMD 9511, 9512, Intel 8231, 8232 wanted, will trade National MM57109
optional 9512 Floating Point (remember these?)
Speaking of which, if anyone has any 9511 or 9512 chips, or the equivalent
Intel 8231 or 8232, I'd like to get at least one of each.
I'm willing to trade the RARE National Semiconductor MM57109, which was
a math processor intended for use as either a peripheral or a standalone
controller.
9:33 a.m.
New subject: AMD 9511, 9512, Intel 8231, 8232 wanted, will trade National MM57109
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27 Jan
27 Jan
6:29 a.m.
New subject: AMD 9511, 9512, Intel 8231, 8232 wanted, will trade National MM57109
Tony wrote:
Speaking of which (:-)), does anyone else remember a
9511 card for the
Apple ][. I found one in a pile of boards that were being thrown out,
along with the manual (including schematic), but without any software.
I used to have one of those years ago. There was a patched version of
Applesoft BASIC that would use it. I'm not sure what other software was
written for it.
7:31 a.m.
New subject: AMD 9511, 9512, Intel 8231, 8232 wanted, will trade National MM57109
Tony wrote:
> Speaking of which (:-)), does anyone else remember a 9511 card for the
> Apple ][. I found one in a pile of boards that were being thrown out,
> along with the manual (including schematic), but without any software.
I used to have one of those years ago. There was a
patched version of
Applesoft BASIC that would use it. I'm not sure what other software was
written for it.
There was also a Unit for UCSD Pascal.
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
26 Jan
26 Jan
9:30 a.m.
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4:27 p.m.
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
Hmmm...I received two of these last year and didn't know about this. I
hope the original owner I got them from had parked the heads long ago, but
I can't be sure. They've gone thru two moves now so I don't know their
condition.
One came in a huge metal casing that is about 3' long by 18" wide and
about 5" in height. The other was bare. The funny thing is that I've had
an empty Morrow case that I've had since early 1997 that I now realize is
the case for this hard drive, so the bare one is now inside that :) They
were sold by Morrow in the late 70s/early 80s.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 01/15/99]
I actually
have the hardware for the Winchester Disk System - it was the
controller I used to run my Big, Enormous, 27 Megabyte disk on my CP/M
system (SA4000 - 2 14inch platters! Big sucker.)
And with a very complex headparking method.
IIRC you had to put a clip into the head possitioner with the drive
spinning at full speed to lock the heads. Then turn it off and put a
screw through the drive pulley to lock the spindle. The problem comes
when the clip and screw weren't stored with the drive.... 
6:02 a.m.
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26 Jan
26 Jan
5 p.m.
At 11:30 PM 1/26/99 +0000, you wrote:
..snip
Sounds about right. However, I only lock the heads when I'm going
to trot it about. And I haven't done that for quite a few years.
Never had the capacitor problem, but I do fondly recall the damage
to my nervous system the time I brought it home and fired it up.
Of course, this was somewhat a "home brew" project. I bought the
drive, but there were NO S-100 controllers on the market at that
time. (This was about 1.5 years before Morrow came out with their
controller.) Being too stupid to know better, I designed my own,
hacked up, controller (bear in mind that I'm mostly a Programmer -
not a hardware weenie - though I've been messing with hardware
for a "few" years...)
Anyway, long story shortened: finished interface in a couple of
weeks, checked it out as best I could with offline tests. Built
power supplies for drive (needs 110vac control, and if I recall
correctly, 24vdc, 12vdc 5vdc and probably -12vdc - just about
everything and they have to be sequenced in the correct order
(or rather NOT in the INCORRECT order.)
Got everything up, dc-wise. Ready for drive. Powered up the AC
to the drive motor and damn near wet my pants. The most horrible
shreak and growl came from the drive. I've heard ("experienced")
a few head crashes in the my day and they usually kinda "sneak up"
on you - high-pitch squeal that gets louder and lower and louder and...
until there is no doubt what is happening. However, THIS drive just
started up screaching and howling.
I was about 10 feet from the drive when I powered it up, across the
room at the computer console watching my debug display for the
controller test. I don't think I've ever moved as fast as that
before - or since. Flew across the room to yank the power cord from
the wall - call it a reflex action - I wanted the damn thing OFF
quick - had the impression of my $4000 going up in smoke. (that's
what a "cheap" drive cost back then...)
Well, it turns out this SA4000 is DESIGNED to make that noise.
The starting torque of the motor is greater than the design for
the platters so the designers made a belt drive that was supposed
to SLIP for a few seconds. Imagine your power-steering belt on
your car when it's cold and the belt is a little loose. Same
effect, though I never experienced that on a disk drive
before.
Anyway, drive worked, controller (eventually) worked, but Morrow's
was MUCH better so replaced it eventually. Drive worked fine
for more than seven years before I retired it to the garage
"pasture." Still worked the last time I fired it up.
For those not able to picture the size of this drive: 14 inch
platters, with cast aluminum base in a box about 10 inches
high by 26 inches deep by 19 inches wide. If this size box were
filled with current run 4gbyte drives, it would contain at least
750 gbytes and probably need about the same amount of power.
A density factor of about 27000:1. Not bad for 15 years.
Gary
I actually
have the hardware for the Winchester Disk System - it was the
controller I used to run my Big, Enormous, 27 Megabyte disk on my CP/M
system (SA4000 - 2 14inch platters! Big sucker.)
And with a very complex headparking method.
IIRC you had to put a clip into the head possitioner with the drive
spinning at full speed to lock the heads. Then turn it off and put a
screw through the drive pulley to lock the spindle. The problem comes
when the clip and screw weren't stored with the drive....
I'e heard stories of the motor start capacitor (it's a little AC
induction motor) exploding and spaying oil over the rest of the machine.
I don't particularly want to see this happen...
-tony
5:26 p.m.
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Gary Oliver wrote:
For those not able to picture the size of this drive:
14 inch
platters, with cast aluminum base in a box about 10 inches
high by 26 inches deep by 19 inches wide. If this size box were
filled with current run 4gbyte drives, it would contain at least
750 gbytes and probably need about the same amount of power.
A density factor of about 27000:1. Not bad for 15 years.
I'll try to get a digital photo of my units and post them to the VCF web
site.
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.
Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 01/15/99]
27 Jan
27 Jan
6:09 a.m.
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10:56 p.m.
New subject: Lifespan of disk drives
On the other hand, there are a significant number of SA4000s that are
still working. What to guess how many modern drives will still be
operational in 15 years time ?
--tony
I've got to jump in here.
I've got 12 years on an IDE 80 meg WD drive.
I don't doubt it'll do another 3.
Actually, most drives at work get replaced because the latest Windowsxx
or Solaris 2.x won't fit on them.
The PRO350 I've got has at least 14 years on it's drive, as does the
Rainbow. I can't consider ST506 stuff current.
Bill
---
Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a
villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller
bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org
22 Jan
22 Jan
8:39 p.m.
Actually, there
was a thingy called PC/IX which ran on those non
memory-managed systems. I actually managed to snag a copy a few years ago.
Well, and of course there's Minix (where Linux started)...
Any Unix clones for 8080/Z80 systems? It ought to be doable, given that the
original Unix was done on a 64KB address space machine...
- Joe
23 Jan
23 Jan
4:57 a.m.
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3 Feb
3 Feb
4:40 a.m.
New subject: Tandy Pin-outs???
Anyone know of a web site that has the TRS-80s and CoCo serial port
pin-outs???
Thanks,
Arfon
5:46 a.m.
New subject: Tandy Pin-outs???
On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Arfon Gryffydd wrote:
Anyone know of a web site that has the TRS-80s and
CoCo serial port
pin-outs???
For the Color Computer bit-banger:
http://lwp.ualg.pt/docs/hwb/co_TandyCoCoSerPrinter.html
The serial ports on the TRS-80s with DB-25 connectors are standard
DTE pin-out, except in the cases of some Model IIs that were
modified for Bisynch. Oh, the Model 16/6000 3-port serial card
ports were pinned out like DTE with a null-modem (which isn't
_quite_ DCE).
--
Ward Griffiths
"the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then
you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor
8:16 a.m.
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23 Jan
23 Jan
4:44 a.m.
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25 Jan
25 Jan
1:26 a.m.
> Any Unix clones for 8080/Z80 systems? It ought to
be doable, given that the
> original Unix was done on a 64KB address space machine...
The problem with any multi-tasking or multi-user
system on a Z80 is that
there is no easy way to write position-independant code. There is no
relative call and no relative loads/stores (both the PDP11 and the 6809
have them). There are workarounds (either you use RST instructions to
simulate the relative call, etc or you relocate the task when you load
it), but they make life a little harder.
Most multi user/programming atempts for Z80 systems (and
6502 which had also (long) relative jumps) I know did go
for bank switching, where the whole 64K mem, minus the
OS parts, was banked for each task - so every programm
had a fixed starting address, and a maximum mem size,
based on the bank size.
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
24 Jan
24 Jan
10:19 a.m.
There was a little Unix-like system called MARC (Machine Assisted Resource
Coordinator),
written by Ed Ziemba. Unfortunately, Ed met an untimely death in a
recreational accident,
so it was never really finished. MARC used CP/M for a host boot, and the
versions that I
tinkered with used the CP/M BIOS for I/O to the disk.
Jay
At 10:46 PM 1/22/99 -0800, you wrote:
---
Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection
Jay.Jaeger(a)msn.fullfeed.com visit http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~cube
Actually, there
was a thingy called PC/IX which ran on those non
memory-managed systems. I actually managed to snag a copy a few years ago.
Well, and of course there's Minix (where Linux started)...
Any Unix clones for 8080/Z80 systems? It ought to be doable, given that the
original Unix was done on a 64KB address space machine...
- Joe
9454
days inactive
9465
days old
25 comments
13 participants
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ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
arfonrg＠texas.net -
bill＠chipware.com -
cdrmool＠interlog.com -
cswiger＠wilma.widomaker.com -
cube＠msn.fullfeed.com -
dastar＠ncal.verio.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
go＠ao.com -
gram＠cnct.com -
Hans.Franke＠mch20.sbs.de -
joe＠barrera.org -
pechter＠monmouth.com