14 Nov
2012
14 Nov
'12
11:49 p.m.
Is this old news:
http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html
--
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
14 Nov
14 Nov
11:56 p.m.
what? really interesting
On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 10:49 PM, Jim Brain <brain at jbrain.com> wrote:
Is this old news:
http://www.mtmscientific.com/**pc-retro.html<http://www.mtmscientific.co…
--
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
15 Nov
15 Nov
1:25 a.m.
On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 11:49 PM, Jim Brain <brain at jbrain.com> wrote:
Is this old news:
http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html
First I've seen it.
The board certainly looks like a PC 5150 clone. I wonder what they
found that differed from the published schematics.
-ethan
12:37 p.m.
On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote:
The board certainly looks like a PC 5150 clone. I
wonder what they
found that differed from the published schematics.
Well, a few changes, :-)
the ORIGINAL 5150 used 4116's not 4264.
and, the first row was soldered in.
It was 16K - 256K.
LATER 5150's, such as THIS "64KB - 256KB CPU"
used 64K chips, AND could be trivially set/modified
for 2 rows of 256K plus 2 rows of 64K.
If one were to make an Apple][ replica,
should it be a replica of the IIE or IIGS?
If we're going all-out for the "nostalgia of the earliest one",
then shouldn't we be replicating the earliest one?
Or at least, the earliest MODEL?
They're talking about a board from 1982.
The ORIGINAL 5150 was released in August 1981.
They have, instead, made a 1983 5150.
Why are they running a 1983 copy of PC-DOS 2.10?
(They probably got THEIR first 5150 in 1983)
Their BASIC ROMS are real IBM, (C) 1983, and all labeled #5!
BIOS ROM is currently replaced with a 28 pin chip
labelled "DIAG ROM" (Like the Todd Fischer one?)
I'm not concerned with the date codes of the chips,
but the content of the ROMs changed. [slightly]
When they release it, what ROMs are they going to ship?
BASIC and BIOS infringement? Or, will they modify
the circuit for EPROMs and ship a non-infringing
[but SLIGHTLY incompatible] BIOS with NO BASIC??!?
Although IBM published circuit diagrams,
they were certainly NEVER "Open source"!
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
1:47 a.m.
On 11/14/2012 8:49 PM, Jim Brain wrote:
Is this old news:
http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html
Why would someone do this ? An original working motherboard might sell
for $20 on ebay. I can't imagine this would cost less than $20. I see
whole IBM PC go for less than $100 all the time.
2:01 a.m.
On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:47 AM, mc68010 <mc68010 at gmail.com> wrote:
On 11/14/2012 8:49 PM, Jim Brain wrote:
Less mouse poop?
-ethan
Is this old news:
http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html
Why would someone do this ? An original working motherboard might sell for
$20 on ebay. I can't imagine this would cost less than $20. I see whole IBM
PC go for less than $100 all the time. 
2:10 a.m.
So where do they get all the parts from?
Don't tell me they strip down real IBM PC motherboards!!!!
Regards
?
Rod Smallwood
?
?????ANSI X12 - EANCOM - TRADACOMS
?
EDI Consulting Ltd
?
Phone? 0118 971 4436
Email?? rodsmallwood at btconnect.com
?
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks
Sent: 15 November 2012 07:02
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: IBM PC replica
On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:47 AM, mc68010 <mc68010 at gmail.com> wrote:
On 11/14/2012 8:49 PM, Jim Brain wrote:
IBM
Is this old news:
http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html
Why would someone do this ? An original working motherboard might sell for
$20 on ebay. I can't imagine this would cost less than $20. I see whole PC go for less than $100 all the time.
Less mouse poop?
-ethan
2:13 a.m.
On 11/14/2012 11:01 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Why would someone do this ? An original working motherboard might sell for
$20 on ebay. I can't imagine this would cost less than $20. I see whole IBM
PC go for less than $100 all the time.
Less mouse poop?
-ethan
You usually have to pay extra for mouse poop.
10:16 a.m.
On Wed, 14 Nov 2012, mc68010 wrote:
On 11/14/2012 8:49 PM, Jim Brain wrote:
Is this old news:
http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html
Why would someone do this ? An original working motherboard might sell for
$20 on ebay. I can't imagine this would cost less than $20. I see whole IBM
PC go for less than $100 all the time.
From my standpoint, there's value in building a kit
like this because it's
fun.
If you had to have some kind of high-brow justification for everything,
nothing would ever get done. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
10:27 a.m.
On 15 November 2012 15:16, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
From my standpoint, there's value in building a kit like this because it's
fun.
If you had to have some kind of high-brow justification for everything,
nothing would ever get done. :)
Absolutely. I want to do that Build Your Own Z80 computer project
that I never finished when I was 14.
I wonder if I still have that wire wrapper someplace.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K1LZ1592bs
PORK AND BEANS!
--
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
--------
"I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all
the facts are in. "
General "Buck" Turgidson
10:33 a.m.
On 11/15/2012 10:27 AM, John Many Jars wrote:
Do it! That's such a great book. I'd suggest modernizing a few
things from that design, though, like use (at least) 6116 or 6264/62256
SRAM chips rather than 2114s.
If you had to
have some kind of high-brow justification for everything,
nothing would ever get done. :)
Absolutely. I want to do that Build Your Own Z80 computer project
that I never finished when I was 14. I wonder if I still have that wire wrapper someplace.
If not, they're not tough to find.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
10:38 a.m.
At 10:47 PM -0800 11/14/12, mc68010 wrote:
On 11/14/2012 8:49 PM, Jim Brain wrote:
I have to agree, but then my interest is in running OS's & software
that don't run on some variant of IBM PC. For that matter my only
interest in old Mac's is in running ClarisDraw. As such while I
might be interested in an updated C64 or Apple 2e, this isn't
something that grabs my attention. Simply put to each there own.
One must assume that if they're going to this effort, there is a
market. Is there any sort of industrial application that would
require these boards? Looked at from that standpoint, these might
make sense then.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
| My Photography Website |
| http://www.zanesphotography.com |
Is this old news:
http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html
Why would someone do this ? An original working motherboard might
sell for $20 on ebay. I can't imagine this would cost less than $20.
I see whole IBM PC go for less than $100 all the time. 
10:50 a.m.
I don't know about 8088s still being used in the mass market, but we still
build 80386s for CNC use. We even have one customer that runs his entire
machine shop off Apple IIs!
Apparently it is a lot cheaper to keep buying old machines and patching
things up than it is to spend $100,000 plus for new software to do whatever
they do.
That being said, I do have old Macs, C64 and C128 machines, tested and
working. Even have Claris Draw around here someplace. Are you fairly local
to San Antonio?
Cindy Croxton
Electronics Plus
1613 Water Street
Kerrville, TX 78028
(830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax
AOL IM elcpls
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 9:38 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion:
Subject: Re: IBM PC replica
At 10:47 PM -0800 11/14/12, mc68010 wrote:
On 11/14/2012 8:49 PM, Jim Brain wrote:
I have to agree, but then my interest is in running OS's & software that
don't run on some variant of IBM PC. For that matter my only interest in
old Mac's is in running ClarisDraw. As such while I might be interested in
an updated C64 or Apple 2e, this isn't something that grabs my attention.
Simply put to each there own.
One must assume that if they're going to this effort, there is a market. Is
there any sort of industrial application that would require these boards?
Looked at from that standpoint, these might make sense then.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
| My Photography Website |
| http://www.zanesphotography.com |
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5893 - Release Date: 11/13/12
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5893 - Release Date: 11/13/12
Is this old news:
http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html
Why would someone do this ? An original working motherboard might sell
for $20 on ebay. I can't imagine this would cost less than $20.
I see whole IBM PC go for less than $100 all the time.
10:59 a.m.
On 11/15/2012 10:50 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote:
I don't know about 8088s still being used in the
mass market, but we still
build 80386s for CNC use.
I see 8088-based PCs in CNC applications from time to time, but not
often anymore. I see LOTS of them in (very old) embedded applications
in that world, usually on STD-bus boards and custom stuff. Some of
those boards are 30 years old, but if it does the job adequately,
there's really no legitimate reason to mess with it, despite the
heartburn of sales-slime everywhere.
We even have one customer that runs his entire
machine shop off Apple IIs!
Neat!
Apparently it is a lot cheaper to keep buying old
machines and patching
things up than it is to spend $100,000 plus for new software to do whatever
they do.
Yup. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
11:11 a.m.
It's definitely cheaper to keep old systems running, especially on
things like systems running in Nuclear Power Plants where the cost of
requalifying new systems outweighs the cost of bringing in modern
hardware. I'd not heard of a machine shop running on Apple II's, but
am not surprised, as there are ones out there running on PDP-8's.
Trust me, I don't need any more old Mac's, Commodore computers, or
Apple II's. Quite the opposite. :-)
I ran my copy of ClarisDraw (purchased in '95) until my G5 PowerMac
died. One of these days I need to get a VM environment setup to run
it on my Mac Pro, or else revive my G4/450. ClarisDraw is the one
bit of software that I use on rare occasions that I really can't
replace.
Zane
At 9:50 AM -0600 11/15/12, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote:
I don't know about 8088s still being used in the
mass market, but we still
build 80386s for CNC use. We even have one customer that runs his entire
machine shop off Apple IIs!
Apparently it is a lot cheaper to keep buying old machines and patching
things up than it is to spend $100,000 plus for new software to do whatever
they do.
That being said, I do have old Macs, C64 and C128 machines, tested and
working. Even have Claris Draw around here someplace. Are you fairly local
to San Antonio?
Cindy Croxton
Electronics Plus
1613 Water Street
Kerrville, TX 78028
(830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax
AOL IM elcpls
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 9:38 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion:
Subject: Re: IBM PC replica
At 10:47 PM -0800 11/14/12, mc68010 wrote:
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
| My Photography Website |
| http://www.zanesphotography.com |
On 11/14/2012 8:49 PM, Jim Brain wrote:
I have to agree, but then my interest is in running OS's & software that
don't run on some variant of IBM PC. For that matter my only interest in
old Mac's is in running ClarisDraw. As such while I might be interested in
an updated C64 or Apple 2e, this isn't something that grabs my attention.
Simply put to each there own.
One must assume that if they're going to this effort, there is a market. Is
there any sort of industrial application that would require these boards?
Looked at from that standpoint, these might make sense then.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
| My Photography Website |
| http://www.zanesphotography.com |
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5893 - Release Date: 11/13/12
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5893 - Release Date: 11/13/12 Is this old news:
http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html
Why would someone do this ? An original working motherboard might sell
for $20 on ebay. I can't imagine this would cost less than $20.
I see whole IBM PC go for less than $100 all the time. 
11:48 a.m.
On Nov 15, 2012, at 10:50 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote:
I don't know about 8088s still being used in the
mass market, but we still
build 80386s for CNC use. We even have one customer that runs his entire
machine shop off Apple IIs!
Apparently it is a lot cheaper to keep buying old machines and patching
things up than it is to spend $100,000 plus for new software to do whatever
they do.
Cheaper and more reliable. We had a steel mill as a client at work
who had an aging Multibus based real-time control system running
their rolling presses; not the sort of thing where you want
something to go wrong, or you lose something like a million dollars
worth of steel and production time while you clean up the buckled
ingot from the stands.
We ended up replacing it with a National Instruments Core2 Duo
system which worked quite well, except there was one pesky bug in
their Ethernet drivers which would hang the entire system from
time to time and was damn near impossible to track down, which is
exactly the kind of nightmare people are worried about when
replacing an old, working system with a new, unproven one.
In the end, we only buckled one ingot, and it turned out it was
because there was something in their existing system that didn't
quite match the reams of system documentation.
- Dave
12:34 p.m.
On 11/15/2012 08:48 AM, David Riley wrote:
On Nov 15, 2012, at 10:50 AM, Cindy Croxton
Electronics Plus wrote:
A lot of Japanese CNC tools from the 80s and 90s were based on the PC98
architecture, so direct replacement of the controller can be difficult.
I've even run into one or two old controllers that were based on the
Mitsubishi Multi-16 platform. Interesting in that it's one of the few
places where the old platform still exists.
Sent off a disk drive last week modified to work with a Mitsubishi wire
EDM tool--CP/M 86 running on a PC98 base.
--Chuck
I don't know about 8088s still being used in
the mass market, but we still
build 80386s for CNC use. We even have one customer that runs his entire
machine shop off Apple IIs!
Apparently it is a lot cheaper to keep buying old machines and patching
things up than it is to spend $100,000 plus for new software to do whatever
they do.
Cheaper and more reliable. We had a steel mill as a client at work
who had an aging Multibus based real-time control system running
their rolling presses; not the sort of thing where you want
something to go wrong, or you lose something like a million dollars
worth of steel and production time while you clean up the buckled
ingot from the stands.
12:53 p.m.
Are their "tech support" people prepared for the deluge of
"Why can't I run Windows 8?" questions?
Is the 1998 8088 chip truly bug-for-bug compatible with the 1981 chip?
They have missed the XMAS shopping season completely. How much will it
cost?
Will this lower the value of my R at RE real 5150?
1:42 p.m.
I can't comment on the compatibility between chips, if it's the same pinout
as the original if there are any bugs found it shouldn't be too hard to
swap for an original 8088, as far as I know they aren't ultra rare. I do
wonder personally if a V20 would work in one of these remakes
--
C:\win
Bad Command Or File Name
C:\
5:31 p.m.
On 11/15/2012 01:42 PM, Christopher Satterfield wrote:
I can't comment on the compatibility between
chips, if it's the same pinout
as the original if there are any bugs found it shouldn't be too hard to
swap for an original 8088, as far as I know they aren't ultra rare. I do
wonder personally if a V20 would work in one of these remakes
I see no reason why it wouldn't. There was nothing at all
"PC-specific" about the V20.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
8:16 a.m.
On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:49 PM, Jim Brain <brain at jbrain.com> wrote:
Is this old news:
http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html
Read more about it here:
http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?31655
Thread: Motherboard Kit IBM Clone 64KB-256KB PCB: Diagnostic Help
10:01 a.m.
On Wed, 14 Nov 2012, Jim Brain wrote:
Is this old news:
http://www.mtmscientific.com/pc-retro.html
I'm embarrased, but SQUEEEE!
*laughs*
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
4248
days inactive
4248
days old
21 comments
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