7 Dec
2015
7 Dec
'15
2:25 p.m.
On 6 December 2015 at 13:24, Mark G. Thomas <Mark at misty.com> wrote:
As much as I love old CPUs, I've lost my patience
with hard disk drives.
I've been using AztecMonster (search ebay) CF-SCSI adapters, with several-GB
CF cards instead of spinning disks. The KA660 and several PDP-11/83s
here run reliably from CF storage. I see now there are SCSI2SD cards for
half the price of the AztecMonster CF adapters I've been using. These
might be an alternative, if they play okay with whatever q-bus SCSI
controller you find. Installing from SCSI CDROM and using flash
storage is definitely the way to go if you can get the parts.
That's great news to hear that the AztecMonster works on QBUS PDP-11s.
I now know exactly what my future plans are...
But I have a "random" question for those here. I know some of the QBUS
(and UNIBUS) SCSI controllers can act both as an MSCP and TMSCP
controller. (CMD CQD-220A/TM for one example.) And I know that several
of the PDP-11 operating systems install from tape, and can install
from TMSCP tape (hello RSTS/E). What I'd like to
know is: Is there
anything out there that can emulate a SCSI tape device on a CF
card/SD
card/USB stick/what-have-you?
Best regards,
Christian
--
Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove
STCKON08DS0
Contact information available upon request.
7 Dec
7 Dec
2:29 p.m.
On 2015-12-07 20:25, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
On 6 December 2015 at 13:24, Mark G. Thomas <Mark
at misty.com> wrote:
I think all (modern PDP-11) OSes can install from TMSCP tapes. RSTS/E is
more picky than some others, though, if I remember right...
As for your actual question, that is outside the scope of the PDP-11.
You are asking if there is some SCSI storage, that physically looks like
a CF card (or so), but logically on the SCSI bus looks like a tape.
Hooking that to a PDP-11 or an x86-64 wouldn't make any difference.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
As much as I love old CPUs, I've lost my
patience with hard disk drives.
I've been using AztecMonster (search ebay) CF-SCSI adapters, with several-GB
CF cards instead of spinning disks. The KA660 and several PDP-11/83s
here run reliably from CF storage. I see now there are SCSI2SD cards for
half the price of the AztecMonster CF adapters I've been using. These
might be an alternative, if they play okay with whatever q-bus SCSI
controller you find. Installing from SCSI CDROM and using flash
storage is definitely the way to go if you can get the parts.
That's great news to hear that the AztecMonster works on QBUS PDP-11s.
I now know exactly what my future plans are...
But I have a "random" question for those here. I know some of the QBUS
(and UNIBUS) SCSI controllers can act both as an MSCP and TMSCP
controller. (CMD CQD-220A/TM for one example.) And I know that several
of the PDP-11 operating systems install from tape, and can install
from TMSCP tape (hello RSTS/E). What I'd like to know is: Is there
anything out there that can emulate a SCSI tape device on a CF card/SD
card/USB stick/what-have-you?
2:36 p.m.
On 7 December 2015 at 14:29, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
I think all (modern PDP-11) OSes can install from
TMSCP tapes. RSTS/E is
more picky than some others, though, if I remember right...
Yes, RSTS/E installs from TMSCP just fine (as can RSX-11/M+); I know
that in simh you can bring up Ultrix-11 3.1 only on TMSCP
(specifically a TK50), at least if you want all of the packages to
install. I've installed RSTS/E 10.1-L from MASSBUS, TS11, TM11, and
TMSCP in my various experimentation with emulation, it really doesn't
care what the tape is as long as your SYSGEN device is consistent.
As for your actual question, that is outside the scope
of the PDP-11. You
are asking if there is some SCSI storage, that physically looks like a CF
card (or so), but logically on the SCSI bus looks like a tape.
Yeah, probably my phrasing or organization was a bit off, but what I
meant wasn't with regards to just the PDP-11, but with regards to a
general device that looks like a SCSI tape device. Since such a SCSI
device could, like you said, work on a PDP-11, modern x86-64 (if the
SCSI bus is right), VAX, Alpha, et cetera.
Cheers,
Christian
--
Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove
STCKON08DS0
Contact information available upon request.
2:56 p.m.
On 2015-12-07 20:36, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
On 7 December 2015 at 14:29, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at update.uu.se> wrote:
Actually, RSTS/E have some issues with install if the tape isn't write
locked. I thought it was some combo/confusion between TK50 and TK70, but
it was the write lock issue that I sortof remembered...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
I think all (modern PDP-11) OSes can install from
TMSCP tapes. RSTS/E is
more picky than some others, though, if I remember right...
Yes, RSTS/E installs from TMSCP just fine (as can RSX-11/M+); I know
that in simh you can bring up Ultrix-11 3.1 only on TMSCP
(specifically a TK50), at least if you want all of the packages to
install. I've installed RSTS/E 10.1-L from MASSBUS, TS11, TM11, and
TMSCP in my various experimentation with emulation, it really doesn't
care what the tape is as long as your SYSGEN device is consistent. 
3:14 p.m.
On Dec 7, 2015, at 2:56 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at Update.UU.SE> wrote:
On 2015-12-07 20:36, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
That doesn't sound quite right. RSTS/E treats a boot disk as an installation (kit)
disk if its file system is marked as read-only. (That's the file system flags, not
the drive write protect button). If you boot such a disk, it goes to the installation
dialog rather than the system start dialog.
If you boot from tape, you'll also (always) end up in the installation dialog since
the assumption is that the only bootable tapes out there are install kits.
paul
On 7 December 2015 at 14:29, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
Actually, RSTS/E have some issues with install if the tape isn't write locked. I
thought it was some combo/confusion between TK50 and TK70, but it was the write lock issue
that I sortof remembered... I think all (modern PDP-11) OSes can install from
TMSCP tapes. RSTS/E is
more picky than some others, though, if I remember right...
Yes, RSTS/E installs from TMSCP just fine (as can RSX-11/M+); I know
that in simh you can bring up Ultrix-11 3.1 only on TMSCP
(specifically a TK50), at least if you want all of the packages to
install. I've installed RSTS/E 10.1-L from MASSBUS, TS11, TM11, and
TMSCP in my various experimentation with emulation, it really doesn't
care what the tape is as long as your SYSGEN device is consistent.
8 Dec
8 Dec
5:24 a.m.
On 2015-12-07 21:14, Paul Koning wrote:
I have no idea how RSTS/E deals with disks. I was only talking about tapes.
On Dec 7, 2015, at 2:56 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at Update.UU.SE> wrote:
On 2015-12-07 20:36, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
That doesn't sound quite right. RSTS/E treats a boot disk as an installation (kit)
disk if its file system is marked as read-only. (That's the file system flags, not
the drive write protect button). If you boot such a disk, it goes to the installation
dialog rather than the system start dialog. On 7 December 2015 at 14:29, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
Actually, RSTS/E have some issues with install if the tape isn't write locked. I
thought it was some combo/confusion between TK50 and TK70, but it was the write lock issue
that I sortof remembered... I think all (modern PDP-11) OSes can install from
TMSCP tapes. RSTS/E is
more picky than some others, though, if I remember right...
Yes, RSTS/E installs from TMSCP just fine (as can RSX-11/M+); I know
that in simh you can bring up Ultrix-11 3.1 only on TMSCP
(specifically a TK50), at least if you want all of the packages to
install. I've installed RSTS/E 10.1-L from MASSBUS, TS11, TM11, and
TMSCP in my various experimentation with emulation, it really doesn't
care what the tape is as long as your SYSGEN device is consistent. If you boot from tape, you'll also (always) end up
in the installation dialog since the assumption is that the only bootable tapes out there
are install kits.
I have not done any RSTS/E installations myself, so I'm only repeating
what others have reported multiple times. And according to several
people, if the tape isn't write locked, the installation aborts. Google
for it and you'll find several reports about this.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
11:02 a.m.
On 2015-12-07 20:36, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
On 7 December 2015 at 14:29, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at update.uu.se> wrote:
One detail on "it doesn't care what the tape is": RSTS kits on 1/2 inch tape
come in 800 and 1600 bpi versions. They have different boot blocks, each of them designed
to work with all tape drives/controllers supported on RSTS that support the density in
question. For example, the 1600 bpi kit doesn't boot on a TM11 controller, and the
800 bpi kit won't boot on a TMSCP controller. This matters if you try to boot one in
an emulator where physical tape density doens't have any meaning.
paul
I think all (modern PDP-11) OSes can install from
TMSCP tapes. RSTS/E is
more picky than some others, though, if I remember right...
Yes, RSTS/E installs from TMSCP just fine (as can RSX-11/M+); I know
that in simh you can bring up Ultrix-11 3.1 only on TMSCP
(specifically a TK50), at least if you want all of the packages to
install. I've installed RSTS/E 10.1-L from MASSBUS, TS11, TM11, and
TMSCP in my various experimentation with emulation, it really doesn't
care what the tape is as long as your SYSGEN device is consistent.
11:38 a.m.
On 2015-12-08 17:02, Paul Koning wrote:
On 2015-12-07 20:36, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
Unsubscribed from cctalk now, so I'm not sure if this will get through
or not.
The RSX installation tape should boot from all tape devices, no matter
what density. The disk boot blocks are somewhat more specific. MSCP sits
together with massbus and RK06/RK07. RK05, RL01/02, RP02/03 as well as
P/OS drivers are separate boot blocks. Of those, only the RL02 is
actually supported by M+. So in practice, you only see one of two disk
boot blocks around for M+. 11M use pretty much anything, I'd think.
Johnny
On 7 December 2015 at 14:29, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
One detail on "it doesn't care what the tape is": RSTS kits on 1/2 inch
tape come in 800 and 1600 bpi versions. They have different boot blocks, each of them
designed to work with all tape drives/controllers supported on RSTS that support the
density in question. For example, the 1600 bpi kit doesn't boot on a TM11 controller,
and the 800 bpi kit won't boot on a TMSCP controller. This matters if you try to boot
one in an emulator where physical tape density doens't have any meaning. I think all (modern PDP-11) OSes can install from
TMSCP tapes. RSTS/E is
more picky than some others, though, if I remember right...
Yes, RSTS/E installs from TMSCP just fine (as can RSX-11/M+); I know
that in simh you can bring up Ultrix-11 3.1 only on TMSCP
(specifically a TK50), at least if you want all of the packages to
install. I've installed RSTS/E 10.1-L from MASSBUS, TS11, TM11, and
TMSCP in my various experimentation with emulation, it really doesn't
care what the tape is as long as your SYSGEN device is consistent. 
3:37 p.m.
"So a 9-track open-reel SCSI drive should work just as well as a DDS, DLT,
SLT drive."
Oh wow. i had not even considered that. I have a pdp 11 with a beast of a 9
track tape drive in is's own rack, that would be interesting if i could get
a scsi tape drive for the vax and use some big tapes to move data between
the two.
On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
On 2015-12-08 17:02, Paul Koning wrote:
On 2015-12-07 20:36, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
Unsubscribed from cctalk now, so I'm not sure if this will get through or
not.
The RSX installation tape should boot from all tape devices, no matter
what density. The disk boot blocks are somewhat more specific. MSCP sits
together with massbus and RK06/RK07. RK05, RL01/02, RP02/03 as well as P/OS
drivers are separate boot blocks. Of those, only the RL02 is actually
supported by M+. So in practice, you only see one of two disk boot blocks
around for M+. 11M use pretty much anything, I'd think.
Johnny
On 7 December 2015 at 14:29, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
One detail on "it doesn't care what the tape is": RSTS kits on 1/2 inch
tape come in 800 and 1600 bpi versions. They have different boot blocks,
each of them designed to work with all tape drives/controllers supported on
RSTS that support the density in question. For example, the 1600 bpi kit
doesn't boot on a TM11 controller, and the 800 bpi kit won't boot on a
TMSCP controller. This matters if you try to boot one in an emulator where
physical tape density doens't have any meaning.
I think all (modern PDP-11) OSes can install from
TMSCP tapes. RSTS/E is
more picky than some others, though, if I remember right...
Yes, RSTS/E installs from TMSCP just fine (as can RSX-11/M+); I know
that in simh
you can bring up Ultrix-11 3.1 only on TMSCP
(specifically a TK50), at least if you want all of the packages to
install. I've installed RSTS/E 10.1-L from MASSBUS, TS11, TM11, and
TMSCP in my various experimentation with emulation, it really doesn't
care what the tape is as long as your SYSGEN device is consistent.
2:34 p.m.
On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 11:02 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
One detail on "it doesn't care what the tape
is": RSTS kits on 1/2 inch tape come
in 800 and 1600 bpi versions. They have different boot blocks, each of them
designed to work with all tape drives/controllers supported on RSTS that
support the density in question. For example, the 1600 bpi kit doesn't boot
on a TM11 controller, and the 800 bpi kit won't boot on a TMSCP controller.
I remember TM and TS boot issues from the 80s when we were running RSTS
on an assortment of 11/24 and 11/34 hardware and having to migrate tape
controllers and tape drives from place to place for the installs (TMB11 + TS03,
MS11 + TU80...) I still have a couple of boxes of 800bpi small reels we used
on that TS03.
This matters if you try to boot one in an emulator
where physical tape density doens't have any meaning.
Hadn't considered the implications, but sure... you would have to completely
emulate the original gear or the stars won't align.
-ethan
12:44 p.m.
Hi,
On Mon, Dec 07, 2015 at 02:25:25PM -0500, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
On 6 December 2015 at 13:24, Mark G. Thomas <Mark
at misty.com> wrote:
I had mixed results with some QBUS SCSI adapters. Some played well
with the AztecMonster and some did not. Oddly, I think my Emulex UC07
was one that did not, but the CQDs and maybe one other model work fine.
As much as I love old CPUs, I've lost my
patience with hard disk drives.
I've been using AztecMonster (search ebay) CF-SCSI adapters, with several-GB
CF cards instead of spinning disks. The KA660 and several PDP-11/83s
here run reliably from CF storage. I see now there are SCSI2SD cards for
half the price of the AztecMonster CF adapters I've been using. These
might be an alternative, if they play okay with whatever q-bus SCSI
controller you find. Installing from SCSI CDROM and using flash
storage is definitely the way to go if you can get the parts.
That's great news to hear that the AztecMonster works on QBUS PDP-11s.
I now know exactly what my future plans are... But I have a "random" question for those
here. I know some of the QBUS
(and UNIBUS) SCSI controllers can act both as an MSCP and TMSCP
controller. (CMD CQD-220A/TM for one example.) And I know that several
of the PDP-11 operating systems install from tape, and can install
from TMSCP tape (hello RSTS/E). What I'd like to know is: Is there
anything out there that can emulate a SCSI tape device on a CF card/SD
card/USB stick/what-have-you?
So far, I've been using a DLT8000 when I've needed a sequential tape device,
such as for the BSD2.11 install. It's been convenient to write the tape on
a Linux or Sun box, then plug it into the PDP11. All my older SCSI tape
drives (Exabyte and DAT) have developed problems, but this DLT8000 drive
works great.
Mark
--
Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE
12:50 p.m.
Connecting a scsi dlt or dat drive is something i had not considered. I
thought i would have had to buy and use DEC branded tape drives.
I already have a scsi dat and DLT drive in use on my SGI octane. I could
probally write the image with the octane and then move the drive over to
the microvax to install.
Hopefully the DLT drive will be supported. the dat drive i have seems
finicky at it's best.
On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Mark G. Thomas <Mark at misty.com> wrote:
Hi,
On Mon, Dec 07, 2015 at 02:25:25PM -0500, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
I had mixed results with some QBUS SCSI adapters. Some played well
with the AztecMonster and some did not. Oddly, I think my Emulex UC07
was one that did not, but the CQDs and maybe one other model work fine.
On 6 December 2015 at 13:24, Mark G. Thomas
<Mark at misty.com> wrote:
> As much as I love old CPUs, I've lost my patience with hard disk
drives.
> I've been using AztecMonster (search
ebay) CF-SCSI adapters, with
several-GB
> CF cards instead of spinning disks. The
KA660 and several PDP-11/83s
> here run reliably from CF storage. I see now there are SCSI2SD cards
for
half the
price of the AztecMonster CF adapters I've been using. These
might be an alternative, if they play okay with whatever q-bus SCSI
controller you find. Installing from SCSI CDROM and using flash
storage is definitely the way to go if you can get the parts.
That's great news to hear that the AztecMonster works on QBUS PDP-11s.
I now know exactly what my future plans are... But I have a "random" question for
those here. I know some of the QBUS
(and UNIBUS) SCSI controllers can act both as an MSCP and TMSCP
controller. (CMD CQD-220A/TM for one example.) And I know that several
of the PDP-11 operating systems install from tape, and can install
from TMSCP tape (hello RSTS/E). What I'd like to know is: Is there
anything out there that can emulate a SCSI tape device on a CF card/SD
card/USB stick/what-have-you?
So far, I've been using a DLT8000 when I've needed a sequential tape
device,
such as for the BSD2.11 install. It's been convenient to write the tape on
a Linux or Sun box, then plug it into the PDP11. All my older SCSI tape
drives (Exabyte and DAT) have developed problems, but this DLT8000 drive
works great.
Mark
--
Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE
2:28 p.m.
On 12/08/2015 09:50 AM, devin davison wrote:
Hopefully the DLT drive will be supported. the dat
drive i have
seems finicky at it's best.
That, at least in theory, is the great thing about SCSI--it doesn't
matter what the device is, so long as it implements a set of basic SCSI
device-class commands.
So a 9-track open-reel SCSI drive should work just as well as a DDS,
DLT, SLT drive.
--Chuck
3150
days inactive
3151
days old
12 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
bqt＠update.uu.se -
captainkirk359＠gmail.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
lyokoboy0＠gmail.com -
Mark＠Misty.com -
paulkoning＠comcast.net