9 Aug
2015
9 Aug
'15
8:31 a.m.
From: Johnny Billquist
And one should not forget Algol.
IIRC, Algol is mentioned in the paper I linked to. Of course, Algol's DNA is
in pretty much every procedural language ever created since it was.
From: Andy Holt
(and, for that matter, PL/1 should probably be
considered an unsung
inspiration for C as it was the implementation language for Multics
in which Bell labs was a partner and must have inspired at least
the name for Unix)
The paper also mentions PL/I - IIRC, they (Ken, Dennis et al) had used it on
Multics, and didn't like it. (Which I can understand!) I'm not sure there are
any ideas from PL/I (specifically) which influenced C.
Multics' influence on Unix is a very sizeable topic, which I won't derail into
- it's an interest of mine, and I've been doing research on that; my hope is
to do a paper on it at some point. The executive abstract is that the two
extremes one hears ('Unix is derived from Multics'/'Unix is in fact a
counter-reaction to Multics') aren't really accurate - the truth is in the
middle.
Noel
9 Aug
9 Aug
8:39 a.m.
On Aug 9, 2015, at 11:31 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at
mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
Algol 60, that is. It was used as the inspiration by just about everything that followed,
sometimes very clearly and cleanly (Pascal, Modula), sometimes less so (C). And sometimes
a designer created a total botch based on gross misunderstanding of Algol (Jovial).
Algol 68 is a very different and much more complex language. It didn?t go far and wasn?t
nearly as influential, though Arne Stroustrup mentions its influence on C++ (and this is
pretty obvious when you look at C++ stream I/O).
From: Johnny Billquist
And one should not forget Algol.
IIRC, Algol is mentioned in the paper I linked to. Of course, Algol's DNA is
in pretty much every procedural language ever created since it was. From: Andy Holt
(and, for that matter, PL/1 should probably be
considered an unsung
inspiration for C as it was the implementation language for Multics
in which Bell labs was a partner and must have inspired at least
the name for Unix)
The paper also mentions PL/I - IIRC, they (Ken, Dennis et al) had used it on
Multics, and didn't like it. (Which I can understand!) I'm not sure there are
any ideas from PL/I (specifically) which influenced C. 
9:47 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning
Sent: 09 August 2015 16:40
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Classic programming
Algol 60, that is. It was used as the inspiration by just about everything that
followed, sometimes very clearly and cleanly (Pascal, Modula), sometimes less
so (C). And sometimes a designer created a total botch based on gross
misunderstanding of Algol (Jovial).
Algol 68 is a very different and much more complex language. It didn?t go far
and wasn?t nearly as influential, though Arne Stroustrup mentions its influence
on C++ (and this is pretty obvious when you look at C++ stream I/O).
PL/I also has the distinction (so to speak) of being the only programming
language in history with a formal description more difficult to understand (by a
large margin, in fact) than the one used in Algol 68.
I used to like Algol68, and got to play with an implementation called Algol68C on a
DECSYSTEM-20 in the late 70s. Occasionally I ask if anyone has got the media for it, I
still live in hope. I think there are some other implementations around, I should make the
effort to try one some time.
Regards
Rob
On Aug 9, 2015, at 11:31 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc
at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:
From: Johnny Billquist
And one should not forget Algol.
IIRC, Algol is mentioned in the paper I linked to. Of course, Algol's
DNA is in pretty much every procedural language ever created since it was. From: Andy Holt
(and, for that matter, PL/1 should probably be
considered an unsung
inspiration for C as it was the implementation language for Multics
in which Bell labs was a partner and must have inspired at least the
name for Unix)
The paper also mentions PL/I - IIRC, they (Ken, Dennis et al) had used
it on Multics, and didn't like it. (Which I can understand!) I'm not
sure there are any ideas from PL/I (specifically) which influenced C.
10:22 a.m.
On Aug 9, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Robert Jarratt
<robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
...
I used to like Algol68, and got to play with an implementation called Algol68C on a
DECSYSTEM-20 in the late 70s. Occasionally I ask if anyone has got the media for it, I
still live in hope. I think there are some other implementations around, I should make the
effort to try one some time.
There was a quite good Algol 68 for the CDC 6000 series. There are also oddities like an
Algol 68 interpreter (not compiler) written in Algol 60.
And there is an open source Algol 68 around today ? algol68g.
paul
10:40 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning
Sent: 09 August 2015 18:22
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Classic programming
Maybe I should get one of those then.... :-)
On Aug 9, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Robert Jarratt
<robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
wrote:
...
I used to like Algol68, and got to play with an implementation called Algol68C
on
a DECSYSTEM-20 in the late 70s. Occasionally I ask if anyone has got the
media for it, I still live in hope. I think there are some other implementations
around, I should make the effort to try one some time.
There was a quite good Algol 68 for the CDC 6000 series. There are also
oddities like an Algol 68 interpreter (not compiler) written in Algol 60.
And there is an open source Algol 68 around today ? algol68g.
I think that is the one I was thinking of. I should give it a go.
Regards
Rob
11 a.m.
On Aug 9, 2015, at 1:40 PM, Robert Jarratt
<robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
Those are a bit hard to find, but there?s always DtCyber, the emulator.
paul
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning
Sent: 09 August 2015 18:22
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Classic programming
Maybe I should get one of those then.... :-) On Aug 9, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Robert Jarratt
<robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
wrote:
...
I used to like Algol68, and got to play with an implementation called Algol68C
on
a DECSYSTEM-20 in the late 70s. Occasionally I ask if anyone has got the
media for it, I still live in hope. I think there are some other implementations
around, I should make the effort to try one some time.
There was a quite good Algol 68 for the CDC 6000 series.
11:22 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning
Sent: 09 August 2015 19:00
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Classic programming
Those are a bit hard to find, but there?s always DtCyber, the emulator.
And I think I may not have enough 13A sockets to run one of those in my house anyway :-)
I didn't know there was an emulator (never looked to be honest). I will add it to my
to-do list, but my knowledge of these machines is absolutely zero. So getting something
going might be a challenge, especially as it looks like I would also need to find some OS
media somewhere as well.
I do recall learning about the theoretical architecture of the scoreboard though when I
was at University. The University had, iirc, a CDC Cyber 17<something>, which I used
for one of the programming courses (Pascal I think), but I disliked it having come from
using a DECSYSTEM-20.
Now that I think about it, I did do a course on Algol68 at University (although I knew the
language already, having learned it on the DEC machine), and it may well have been on that
Cyber. I can't remember the dialect though, may have been Algol68R.
Regards
Rob
On Aug 9, 2015, at 1:40 PM, Robert Jarratt
<robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
> Koning
> Sent: 09 August 2015 18:22
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Classic programming
>
>
>> On Aug 9, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Robert Jarratt
>> <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> I used to like Algol68, and got to play with an implementation
>> called Algol68C
> on a DECSYSTEM-20 in the late 70s. Occasionally I ask if anyone has
> got the media for it, I still live in hope. I think there are some
> other implementations around, I should make the effort to try one some
time.
There was a quite good Algol 68 for the CDC 6000 series.
Maybe I should get one of those then.... :-) 
11:10 a.m.
On 2015-Aug-09, at 10:40 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote:
There was also AlgolW, supported on MTS.
As MTS was being mentioned earlier I was going to ask if anyone knew whether the AlgolW
compiler was included in the available distribution.
-----Original
Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning
Sent: 09 August 2015 18:22
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Classic programming
Maybe I should get one of those then.... :-)
On Aug 9, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Robert Jarratt
<robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
wrote:
...
I used to like Algol68, and got to play with an implementation called Algol68C
on
a DECSYSTEM-20 in the late 70s. Occasionally I ask if anyone has got the
media for it, I still live in hope. I think there are some other implementations
around, I should make the effort to try one some time.
There was a quite good Algol 68 for the CDC 6000 series. There are also
oddities like an Algol 68 interpreter (not compiler) written in Algol 60.
And there is an open source Algol 68 around today ? algol68g.
I think that is the one I was thinking of. I should give it a go. 
11:25 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent
Hilpert
Sent: 09 August 2015 19:10
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Classic programming
On 2015-Aug-09, at 10:40 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote:
60.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
> Koning
> Sent: 09 August 2015 18:22
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Classic programming
>
>> On Aug 9, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Robert Jarratt
>> <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> I used to like Algol68, and got to play with an implementation
>> called Algol68C
> on a DECSYSTEM-20 in the late 70s. Occasionally I ask if anyone has
> got the media for it, I still live in hope. I think there are some
> other implementations around, I should make the effort to try one some
time.
>>
>> There was a quite good Algol 68 for the CDC 6000 series.
>
> Maybe I should get one of those then.... :-)
>
>> There are also
>> oddities like an Algol 68 interpreter (not compiler) written in Algol
And there is an open source Algol 68 around today - algol68g.
I think that is the one I was thinking of. I should give it a go. 
11:33 a.m.
Yes, *ALGOLW is included and working in the D6.0 MTS tapes.
Best,
Sean
On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
There was also AlgolW, supported on MTS.
As MTS was being mentioned earlier I was going to ask if anyone knew
whether the AlgolW compiler was included in the available distribution.
I believe that its included, but I haven't tried it.
Dave
G4UGM
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent
Hilpert
Sent: 09 August 2015 19:10
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Classic programming
On 2015-Aug-09, at 10:40 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote:
60.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
> Koning
> Sent: 09 August 2015 18:22
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Classic programming
>
>> On Aug 9, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Robert Jarratt
>> <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> I used to like Algol68, and got to play with an implementation
>> called Algol68C
> on a DECSYSTEM-20 in the late 70s. Occasionally I ask if anyone has
> got the media for it, I still live in hope. I think there are some
> other implementations around, I should make the effort to try one some
time.
>>
>> There was a quite good Algol 68 for the CDC 6000 series.
>
> Maybe I should get one of those then.... :-)
>
>> There are also
>> oddities like an Algol 68 interpreter (not compiler) written in Algol
And there is an open source Algol 68 around today - algol68g.
I think that is the one I was thinking of. I should give it a go. 
9:54 a.m.
On 08/09/2015 08:31 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
It seems everyone has forgotten JOVIAL (1959).
PL/I was remarkable for the fact that it's the language that nobody
involved with the language really wanted. I do remember a few stories
about that told to me by a fellow who worked on COMBTRAN and steadfastly
refused to be involved with said PL/I project.
A couple of years later, one of my compatriots was involved with coming
up with the ANSI standard for the thing. His view was not much
different that my other friend's.
--Chuck
From: Johnny
Billquist
And one should not forget Algol.
IIRC, Algol is mentioned in the paper I linked to. Of course, Algol's DNA is
in pretty much every procedural language ever created since it was.
3423
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10 comments
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participants (7)
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cclist＠sydex.com -
dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com -
hilpert＠cs.ubc.ca -
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scaron＠umich.edu