8 Aug
1999
8 Aug
'99
12:32 p.m.
Hi Tony,
....(read : most microcomputers...) get stuck behind
stuff I'm
working on. Which means to get to the Nimbus I'll have to climb
over a couple of VAXen, a Zilog S8000, a Sun, etc...
Heh, heh, I know the problem well.... ;-)
....I think you can learn as much from a Beeb or an
Apple ][ as
from a PC. If not more.
Personally I'd say more.
A few years ago I decided to get a formal qualification in electronics (I've
been a hobbyist since '77). As part of the course we had to learn the proper
techniques for fault finding digital systems....we were taught these using
microProfessors and similar 6502 based boards (I forget their name....hex
keypad, couple of VIAs, LED readout etc).
"Primitive" systems like these (and Apples and Beebs) I think are far better
animals on which to learn the inner workings of computers, far too much is
hidden away inside the VLSIs our PCs are made from these days. :-(
TTFN - Pete.
--
Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer.
Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC)
peter.pachla(a)virgin.net |
peter.pachla(a)vectrex.freeserve.co.uk |
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--
9 Aug
9 Aug
5:55 a.m.
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10 Aug
10 Aug
2:37 a.m.
New subject: simple Sytems (was:186 (was: CompuGraphics Question))
>>....I think you can learn as much from a Beeb
or an Apple ][ as
>>from a PC. If not more.
> Personally I'd say more.
Well, it depends on what you want to learn. There are
some things (OOP,
for example) that would be difficult to teach on a Beeb or Apple ][.
There are some things (hardware operaion) that are very difficult to
teach with a modern PC.
My keyword - A 'simple' machine like an A2 or an IBM/XT is exaxtly
the very best environment to teach OOP. After all, OOP is NOT about
typeing some :: or ->'s, but rather a way of structur, controll and
information flow, a way of thinking and organisation. I belive the
best way to learn OOP, and not just handling of a special OOable
compiler is doing OOP with simple classic languages (preferably
Assembler (but thats just my personal favorite))
> A few years ago I decided to get a formal
qualification in electronics (I've
Lucky you :-). As I've mentioned before, I have no
qualifications in
electronics or computing.
Makes two of us :)
> microProfessors and similar 6502 based boards (I
forget their name....hex
> keypad, couple of VIAs, LED readout etc).
There were many such boards (for all the processors).
The other famous
6502 one is the Acorn System 1, but they're not that common.
Acron System 1 ? Another beast from the island I'm not aware of ?
Any resources ?
> "Primitive" systems like these (and
Apples and Beebs) I think are far better
> animals on which to learn the inner workings of computers, far too much is
Agreed.
And not only for learning about CPU and absolut basics, but
also the ideal for any 'higher' topic, since there is (almost)
_no_ distraction possible.
Gruss
H.
--
Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh.
H.Achternbusch
8:15 a.m.
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11 Aug
11 Aug
12:01 a.m.
New subject: simple Sytems (was:186 (was: CompuGraphics Question))
On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:15:37 +0100 (BST) Tony Duell
<ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
The System 1 was 2 Eurocards. One of them contained a
6502, 8154 RAM/IO
(with an optional second one), 1K of RAM, and a monitor ROM. The other
contained a hex keypad, 7 segment display, and a cassette interface.
Together they formed a minimal 6502 development system.
This was the first computer I ever built (from a kit). It
was back at school, in about 1978, when I was electronics
lab technician. As you say, two Eurocards, one for
CPU/ROM/RAM and the other for the keyboard, display and (I
think) the cassette interface. The LED display was the
multiplexed type, as used in calculators of the time.
The System 2 was in a rack. It used the same boards as
the System 1,
although the keyboard/display were left off (the second board was just
the cassette interface). There was another card which contained a 40
column text-only VDU and one with more ROM/RAM on it. There was also a
full QWERTY keyboard which (IIRC) plugged into one of the 8154 ports on
the CPU board.
I have a rack-mounted Acorn System Three, which has the
disk, full keyboard, VDU and a power supply. I've also
got spares (like EPROMs) and a little documentation.
...
These machines are not that common, even in the UK, so
they're worth
saving if you ever see any. A few weeks back I spotted a totally bare
Eurocard in a local electronics shop. I believe it to be a sound card for
an Acorn System (although there are no markings on it at all...). One of
the puzzles for the next few months is to work out what all the
components should be (there is no silkscreen at all) and assemble it.
Are there any part numbers or markings? I can compare it
with my system, which certainly has an optocoupled parallel
I/O card, and may have a sound card.
-tony
--
John Honniball
Email: John.Honniball(a)uwe.ac.uk
University of the West of England
8:21 a.m.
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1:33 a.m.
New subject: simple Sytems (was:186 (was: CompuGraphics Question))
> > Well, it depends on what you want to learn.
There are some things (OOP,
> > for example) that would be difficult to teach on a Beeb or Apple ][.
> > There are some things (hardware operaion) that are very difficult to
> > teach with a modern PC.
> My keyword - A 'simple' machine like an A2 or an IBM/XT is exaxtly
> the very best environment to teach OOP. After all, OOP is NOT about
OK, it was a bad example. There must be something
that's better taught on
a modern PC. Although off the top of my head I can't think what it is
;-). You can certainly learn all the fundamentals using old machines.
Well, maybe WinXX management - but what the heck would anybody
like to learn about ?
> Acron System 1 ? Another beast from the island
I'm not aware of ?
Many (clueless) people seem to think that Acorn's
first machine was the
BBC micro. Slightly less clueless ones think it was the Atom (another
6502-based home computer). But before both of those machines, they made a
series of machines based on Eurocard modules in 19" cardframes called the
'Systems'. It is not exactly clear to me what all the later Systems were,
but I can give some ideas.
Well, I did know that they build other, but I had no clear info - thanks a lot.
The System 1 was 2 Eurocards. One of them contained a
6502, 8154 RAM/IO
(with an optional second one), 1K of RAM, and a monitor ROM. The other
contained a hex keypad, 7 segment display, and a cassette interface.
Together they formed a minimal 6502 development system.
WANT!
The System 2 was in a rack. It used the same boards as
the System 1,
although the keyboard/display were left off (the second board was just
the cassette interface). There was another card which contained a 40
column text-only VDU and one with more ROM/RAM on it. There was also a
full QWERTY keyboard which (IIRC) plugged into one of the 8154 ports on
the CPU board.
8154 ? Shure ? Rather unusual to have Intel peripherals
within a 65xx system.
These machines are not that common, even in the UK, so
they're worth
saving if you ever see any. A few weeks back I spotted a totally bare
Eurocard in a local electronics shop. I believe it to be a sound card for
an Acorn System (although there are no markings on it at all...). One of
the puzzles for the next few months is to work out what all the
components should be (there is no silkscreen at all) and assemble it.
Sounds(:) like a fun project.
Gruss
H.
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Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
9:01 a.m.
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9266
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7 comments
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participants (4)
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ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
Hans.Franke＠mch20.sbs.de -
John.Honniball＠uwe.ac.uk -
peter.pachla＠vectrex.freeserve.co.uk