6 Apr
2013
6 Apr
'13
5:32 p.m.
allison <ajp166 at verizon.net> wrote:
The H9275 can be fitted, the standard connecting
cables may or may not
match up but can be had made easily.
I've even put the backplane from the BA32 in a BA11. The form caxtor is
very standardized though the interconnect for power varies with molex or
terminal barrier strips being used.
Ah, good data point to have if I ever get into
the situation for a similar operation.
Yes, some of the backplanes and the cpu board have
jumpesr that need to
be correct and matching.
Alas I don't have any DEC Processor and Peripherals Handbook covering QBUS in dead
tree format, just UNIBUS stuff which is of about zilch use to me in this case, but I got
myself the BA11-N (which includes details on the backplane) and KDF11-BA manuals from
bitsavers. Yes, I also already perused them to a certain extent, and yes, I was aware of
the jumper issue (which is why I even _mentioned_ it. Duh.)
I have full sets spanning the years and it fills about
5 ft (1.5M) of
linear shelf space. I consider
them as more important than the hardware. While much of it is on the
net I find it harder to
scan for a specific item like the default jumpers for DLV11J. The books
have a bit of wear
from actual use.
Not having worked for DEC and being a bit younger than most of the hardware in question,
I'm not that lucky. I could get myself some doubles that were culled from a university
collection ('76 peripherals manual, 11/45 and 11/60 processor manuals...) which
unfortunately do not cover the era and range of hardware I'm dealing with here.
[boot rom / mass storage issues]
I'm not yet
holding the CPU card in question in my hands so I don't know the exact variety.
I have RL01 (three) and RL02 drives (one) which I would like to use with this system, as
they seem appropriate for the era.
The only common card set that depends on CD is RL11
The two board
RL01/02 controller
and it's only 18bit capable, if you working with 22bit system (fully
populated with ram)
then you need the RLV21 which is a single quad board and works in all
backplanes...
oh and also RL02 drives, a 40" rack minimum, plus a good back!
...not to
mention at least one good _pack_, which is (for the RL01) what I'm missing.
In the end the whole Q22 this is only an issue when
you exceed 256Kbytes
of memory
as the Q22 allowed the MMU to reach 4MB of ram.
I will also be provided with a 512kW MOS memory board, so I will need 22-bit addressing to
take full advantage of that, and therefore the (22-bit clean) RLV_12_ single-board
controller. So no CD lanes needed here.
PPS oh, I have at least two that have all slots
filled! Its way to easy
to plug in IO.
For example RLV21 quad width, RQDX3 dual, TKQ50 (dual)
TK50,
RXV21 (dual) RX02 drive controller, DZV11 serial IO(quad),
LPV11 parallel printer (dual), DEQNA (dual),
full 4mb memory (3 quad boards). don't forget the CPU,
11/23B+ also a quad board.
Thats 16 slots filled plus two grant cards total 18
making a full box.
The grant cards allow for optimal board placement and are required to
keep the DMA and interrupt vector chain complete.
Was it indeed usual to build such large configurations based on an 11/23 back then?
TQK50, DEQNA and RQDX3 at least sound sound a bit anachronistic to me, there surely must
have been newer and more powerful processors out at the time those became available?
I think I'll have a rather minimal system (KDF11-B, 512kW RAM, quad SLU, RLV12 + one
or drives) for now, not making my first foray into pdp technology more complicated than
necessary.
Arno
6 Apr
6 Apr
7:11 p.m.
On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 8:32 PM, Arno Kletzander <Arno_1983 at gmx.de> wrote:
That was not a small configuration, but it wasn't uncommon.
When I did PDP-11 consulting in the late 1980s, my "simple" machine in
my home office was a BA-11N with a KDF11-A with 4 32kW memory
boards (they were nearly free by then), an RXV21, an RLV11 ($100 vs
over $1000 for an RLV12), an LPV11, a DLV11J for console and Kermit
port, and BDV-11 for boot ROM and bus termination. That's 7
dual-height cards and three quad-height cards.
What was selling new at time was a MicroPDP-11, so that's a BA-23 with a
quad-height CPU, a quad height memory card, an RQDXn (I forget which
model shipped with the MicroPDPs), a quad-height serial card,
For example
RLV21 quad width, RQDX3 dual, TKQ50 (dual) TK50,
RXV21 (dual) RX02 drive controller, DZV11 serial IO(quad),
LPV11 parallel printer (dual), DEQNA (dual),
full 4mb memory (3 quad boards). don't forget the CPU,
11/23B+ also a quad board.
Thats 16 slots filled plus two grant cards total
18 making a full box.
Was it indeed usual to build such large configurations based on an 11/23 back then?
TQK50, DEQNA and RQDX3 at least sound sound a bit
anachronistic
to me, there surely must have been newer and more powerful
processors out at the time those became available?
There were - you could get a MicroPDP-11 with a KDJ11, and lots
of people did, but they cost more. I wouldn't have wanted to run
an RSX-11/M+ system on a KDF11, but I did see plenty of them on
KDJ11 processors (but even more on Unibus machines).
I think I'll have a rather minimal system
(KDF11-B, 512kW RAM,
quad SLU, RLV12 + one or drives) for now, not making my first
foray into pdp technology more complicated than necessary.
I would call that a mid-range Q-bus PDP-11 myself, not "minimal".
Among other characteristics, I personally think of Q22 as "not minimal".
You can do a lot with RT-11 in 18 bits of memory.
A large Qbus system would be the full 4GB of RAM, Ethernet, a
disk larger than an RQDXn can take (meaning over 150GB),
usually SMD, ESDI or SCSI disk.
-ethan
7:59 p.m.
New subject: pdp-11/23 config
On 04/06/2013 10:11 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 8:32 PM, Arno Kletzander
<Arno_1983 at gmx.de> wrote:
That
was not a small configuration, but it wasn't uncommon.
Not at all uncommon. Usually the disk round out might have left out the
RQDX or the RX02
but many in the day wanted to move from 8" to 5.25 for space and needed
one system to do both.
The fact that it had 4MB of ram was uncommon as back in the day that was
as costly as the
base machine if not more.
For
example RLV21 quad width, RQDX3 dual, TKQ50 (dual) TK50,
RXV21 (dual) RX02 drive controller, DZV11 serial IO(quad),
LPV11 parallel printer (dual), DEQNA (dual),
full 4mb memory (3 quad boards). don't forget the CPU,
11/23B+ also a quad board.
Thats 16 slots filled plus two grant cards total 18 making a full box.
Was it
indeed usual to build such large configurations based on an 11/23 back then?
When I did PDP-11 consulting in the late 1980s, my "simple" machine in
my home office was a BA-11N with a KDF11-A with 4 32kW memory
boards (they were nearly free by then), an RXV21, an RLV11 ($100 vs
over $1000 for an RLV12), an LPV11, a DLV11J for console and Kermit
port, and BDV-11 for boot ROM and bus termination. That's 7
dual-height cards and three quad-height cards.
The MicroPDP11 over time came with any of the three RQDX, the rqdx1
was short lived and the RQDX2 was a revised and cleaned up RQDX1
and still quad width. The RQDX3 was later and both cheaper to make
and generally better. They all could with the correct firmware upgrades
run the same floppies and hard disks.
My first machine was a 4slot backplane, LSI11, 8kw of H11 ram and
a TU58 I managed to fix. The main box was an old aluminum shell
from a S100 machine I had with a H780 power supply.
What was selling new at time was a MicroPDP-11, so
that's a BA-23 with a
quad-height CPU, a quad height memory card, an RQDXn (I forget which
model shipped with the MicroPDPs), a quad-height serial card,
Most of them had
RQDX2, a RX50 and RD51 (St412), RD52(quantum D540,
rd31(20mb ST225) or rd32(40mb St250). Memory ran from 128K all the
way up to 4mb (4 quad width board early and later 2 quad width). CPU was
either 11/23+ or later 11/73 options. IO was usualy cpu (two serial) plus
DHV or DZV for multiple lines and possibly a LPV11. That was the usual
self standing pedestal. The racked version had RL02 or and could have
other drives and tapes such as 9track or TK50.
That was mid 80s package. Standard disk was RX50 floppy and maybe
RD51, 52. I also have one I built of random parts to "DEC Supported
configuration" with floppy, hard disk and 1mb ram. Nice small
machine and not too noisy.
> TQK50, DEQNA and RQDX3 at least sound sound a bit
anachronistic
> to me, there surely must have been newer and more powerful
> processors out at the time those became available?
TK50 was tape DLT tape.
DEQNA was ethernet, and RQDX3 was
MSCP floppy and hard disk controller.
CPU typically was 11/23+ or 11/73 later on for a price.
There were - you could get a MicroPDP-11 with a KDJ11,
and lots
of people did, but they cost more. I wouldn't have wanted to run
an RSX-11/M+ system on a KDF11, but I did see plenty of them on
KDJ11 processors (but even more on Unibus machines).
The biggest advantage of the
KDJ11 was I&D space for 2.11BSD or
RSTS or RSX11. Better memory utilization.
The disk mix in my case was so I could handle any common DEC media.
RL, RX02, RX50, RX33, any MFM drive (5 through 150mb) and TK50 was
a common DLT item.
> I think I'll have a rather minimal system
(KDF11-B, 512kW RAM,
> quad SLU, RLV12 + one or drives) for now, not making my first
> foray into pdp technology more complicated than necessary.
You will want RX50
or RX02 as those were and are common media.
Its easier to find Dias on RX50 or RX02 though I've seen them on TK50
but hated loading them form that (slow!).
Either way a RX02 or RX50 was the common simple and cheap storage
that offered portability. RL packs were over 160$ new and didn't like to
be bounced. FYI drives like RL02 were nearly as expensive as the base
machine ($8-12K).
I would call that a mid-range Q-bus PDP-11 myself, not
"minimal".
Among other characteristics, I personally think of Q22 as "not minimal".
You can do a lot with RT-11 in 18 bits of memory.
Yes, you can even in 16bits. I also have a tiny system using M8186 in a
12 slot dual wide cage running 512KB ram (4 boards), MRV11 (boot),
DLV11J for serial IO, and TU58 for storage. It boots the TU and copies
it to VM: and reboots from there making for a small but very fast
RT-11 system. The OS only use the 28KW and the rest is a virtual
disk (ram disk) big enough to copy the whole base os and a few
useful apps.
A large Qbus system would be the full 4GB of RAM,
Ethernet, a
disk larger than an RQDXn can take (meaning over 150GB),
usually SMD, ESDI or SCSI disk.
I think you meant 150MB for RQDXm for its upper limit. For larger
there were large disks but that was uncommon for Qbus 11s.
RT11 could barely fill (the whole mess) a 20mb drie with much room
left over. For RSTS or RSX a 31mb (RD52) was enough and two
did the trick. larger systems often had mag tape either DLT (tk50)
or 9track for backup and sneakernet (off site or remote systems
before WAN). Typical PDP11 OSs were fairly compact and 30MB
could allow for many users.
Those that ran Unix Most versions fit on a RL02 (10mb) with some
space and 20-40mb was adequate room for a lot of users and
applications.
The system I still use is the tall (50") rack BA-11 CPU I used in my office
when I was in the Mill (ML03-6/B5) as a utility system for printing and
off line (non VAX work). Still fun to use and I even have a few
uVAX3100s running VMS for it to talk to.
Allison
8:34 p.m.
New subject: pdp-11/23 config
On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 10:59 PM, allison <ajp166 at verizon.net> wrote:
Yes. 150MB, not GB. Modern habits.
Either way a RX02 or RX50 was the common simple and
cheap storage
that offered portability. RL packs were over 160$ new and didn't like to
be bounced. FYI drives like RL02 were nearly as expensive as the base
machine ($8-12K).
When I was using the BA11N system I described, I owned an RL01
because I couldn't afford an RL02.
FWIW, I was messing with this system just last month. It's still intact.
Yes, you can even in 16bits. I also have a tiny
system using M8186 in a
12 slot dual wide cage running 512KB ram (4 boards), MRV11 (boot),
DLV11J for serial IO, and TU58 for storage. It boots the TU and copies
it to VM: and reboots from there making for a small but very fast
RT-11 system. The OS only use the 28KW and the rest is a virtual
disk (ram disk) big enough to copy the whole base os and a few
useful apps.
That sounds like a fine RT-11 system.
A large Qbus
system would be the full 4GB of RAM, Ethernet, a
disk larger than an RQDXn can take (meaning over 150GB),
usually SMD, ESDI or SCSI disk.
I think you meant 150MB for RQDXm for its upper limit. For larger
there were large disks but that was uncommon for Qbus 11s.
Agreed.
As one example, I'm thinking of the system that was the target
for my work at the time (1986-1987)... KDJ11 w/4MB of memory,
RLV12 + RL02, RQDX3, some RDn boot drive, and an ESDI
controller with a Fujitsu Eagle (~400MB) for scan data (the
purpose of the machine). It was *not* a cheap system - several
tens of thousands of dollars when bought new.
I was happy that I was able to write code for it on my $400
(used price) system ($300 for BA11 + most of the cards I
listed + $100 for the RLV11, and repurposing most of the
peripherals from my PDP-8/a). I made my living from that
little PDP-11 for over a year. Good investment!
The transfer medium was an RL02 pack via an RL02 drive
that my boss loaned me. My boot drive and editing area
was all on my RL01. The RL02 contained a customer-
provided data file I used to write code against, and served
as the physical medium we'd carry onto the customer site
to deliver new releases. I'm pretty sure that at the time,
that RL02 drive cost several times more than my entire
computer.
The system I still use is the tall (50") rack
BA-11 CPU I used in my office
when I was in the Mill (ML03-6/B5) as a utility system for printing and
off line (non VAX work). Still fun to use and I even have a few
uVAX3100s running VMS for it to talk to.
Cool.
-ethan
4229
days inactive
4229
days old
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