30 Dec
2012
30 Dec
'12
2:49 p.m.
On 2012-12-30 23:00, Glen Slick<glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Jerome H.
Fine<jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
I think you are right, Glen. The M8190 is intended to sit in a Q-CD
slot, not a Q-Q. I'd surprised if it works.
However, if you ever want to put an M8190 in a VT103 you need to rewire
the backplane anyway, as the VT103 backplane don't even do Q22 if I
remember right.
>
>So the quick answer is probably that all M8190 boards are PMI capable, but
>the PMI is not activated if PMI memory is not present in the correct
>slot(s).
>In addition, probably all M8190 boards are happy being placed into a VT103
>backplane which will not support PMI activation.
>
>Of course, I can't guarantee there won't be magic smoke released if the
>M8190-AE
>is placed into a VT103 backplane.
>
I remain skeptical that everything will just be fine if you place an
M8190 KDJ11-B into a non-Q22/CD backplane.
If you look at Table 2-9 (page 2-19) and Table 2-10 (page 2-20) in
EK-KDJ1B-UG_KDJ11-B_Nov86.pdf, won't placing an M8190 into a
non-C22/CD backplane essentially connect the CA1-CV1 signals in Table
2-10 straight through to the AA1-AV1 signals in Table 2-9, and same
with the DA1-DV1 signals and the BA1-BV1 signals? That doesn't seem
like something that would allow normal functioning. Also, it is clear from Table 2-10 that the PMI signals
on the M8190
only exist on the top (component) side of the board and can only
communicate over the PMI with memory boards physically located above
the M8190.
Correct. The PMI memory for PDP-11s work in both Q-CD slots and PMI
slots, but they only perform as PMI memory if they sit above the CPU in
a Qbus backplane.
I'm not sure the PMI memory boards would work in Q-Q slots either...
Johnny
31 Dec
31 Dec
5:13 a.m.
My reference for PMI memory placement.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note 28.0 MSV11-Q/M/J Memory Comparisons No
replies
FURILO::GIORGETTI 175 lines 21-AUG-1985
23:07
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
+---------------+ +-----------------+
| d i g i t a l | | uNOTE # 028
|
+---------------+ +-----------------+
+----------------------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Title: MSV11-Q/M/J MEMORY COMPARISONS | Date: 28-JUN-85
|
+----------------------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Originator: JACK TOTO | Page 1 of 3
|
+----------------------------------------------------+-----------------+
This MicroNote will compare three of Digital Equipment
Corporation's
newest memory modules. Following the description of each memory
module,
is a chart which, list the differences between these memories.
MSV11-Q
-------
The MSV11-Q has three versions, the MSV11-QA, the MSV11-QB and
the
MSV11-QC. The MSV11-QA (M7551-A) is a quad size Q-bus memory module
and
contains 1MB of MOS RAM using 64K bit parts. The MSV11-QA has two
etch
revisions which must be checked when configuring the module into
a
system. The two revisions are the C rev and the A rev, both of
these
revisions are discussed in the Users Guide (EK-MSV1Q-UG) and
in
Micronote # 030. The second version of the MSV11-Q is the
MSV11-QB
(M7551-B) which is a half populated quad size Q-bus memory
module
containing 2MB of MOS RAM using 256K bit parts. The last version of
the
MSV11-Q is the MSV11-QC which is a fully populated MSV11-QB quad
size
Q-bus memory module containing 4MB of MOS RAM using 256K bit
parts.
Both the MSV11-QB and the MSV11-QC use the MSV11-QA printed
circuit
board, however that board is ECOed to etch level C.
MSV11-J
-------
The MSV11-J has four versions, the MSV11-JB and MSV11-JC which are
used
in the PDP-11/84 UNIBUS systems and the MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE are
used
in either the MicroPDP-11/83 Q-bus systems, or the PDP-11/84
UNIBUS
systems. All four modules use ECC memory for error correction, as
well
as using 256K bit MOS RAM parts on either a half or fully populated
quad
size module.
NOTE:
-----
NONE OF THE FOUR MSV11-J MODULES CAN BE PLACED IN A Q/Q
BACKPLANE SLOT. IF THIS IS ATTEMPTED PERMANENT DAMAGE WILL
BE DONE TO THE BOARDS AND TO THE SYSTEM.
The MSV11-JB (M8637-BA) is a half populated quad size PMI memory
module
containing 1MB of memory. The second version of the MSV11-J is
the
MSV11-JC (M8639-CA), this is a fully populated MSV11-JB quad size
PMI
memory module containing 2MB of memory. These two modules can not
be
used in a Q-bus system due to gate array incompatibilities, and can
only
217
uNOTE # 028
Page 2 of 3
be used in PDP-11/84 systems which use the UNIBUS/PMI bus
interface
(KTJ11-A). The third version of the MSV11-J is the MSV11-JD
(M8639-DA)
which is a half populated quad size PMI memory module containing 1MB
of
memory. The last version of the MSV11-J is the MSV11-JE,
(M8639-EA)
which is a fully populated MSV11-JD quad size PMI memory
module
containing 2MB of memory. These last two modules can be used
with
either the MicroPDP-11/83 system which uses the Q-bus/PMI bus
interface
or the PDP-11/84 system which was mentioned above. For
details
reference the PMI protocol Micronote # xxx.
Although the MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE are PMI memories they can be used
in
two other Q-bus configurations.
1. If either of these two memories are used in slots 1 and/or 2 of
a Q/CD backplane such as the H9276 (BA11-S box) or in the
MicroPDP-11 BA23 backplane, and with the standard 15MHZ KDJ11-B
cpu (non-fpj compatible) in slot 3, the system will perform PMI
memory cycles. In the case of BA23 backplanes, a maximum of two
memory modules may be used in slots ahead of the processor, with
a minimum of one memory module in front of the processor still
functioning as PMI memory. In the case of the H9276 backplane
a number of MSV11-JD/JE memory modules may be used ahead of the
processor bringing the system to a full 4MB of PMI memory.
2. If in a Q/CD or BA23 backplane the memories reside in slots 2&3
with either of the KDF11 or KDJ11 processors in the slot 1
the MSV11-J memories will respond as standard Q-bus memories,
performing normal Q-bus and block mode memory cycles. This use
of the MSV11-J memories is also true for the MicroVAX cpu.
However the fact that the MicroVAX I cpu is a two board set
requires a slightly different configuration. Slots 1&2 will be
used for the MicroVAX I cpu boards with only one memory card
used, that being located in slot 3 for the BA23 backplane and
one or more memory cards being used for other Q/CD backplanes.
The only constraint with either of the second configurations is
that in the BA23 or other Q/CD backplanes no module may be
placed adjacent to the MSV11-J that uses pins in the CD
connector. Instead leave an empty slot between the MSV11-J and
this option. An option which does not use the CD interconnect
may be placed adjacent to the MSV11-J.
7:38 p.m.
Daniel Snyder wrote:
[Snip]
NOTE:
-----
NONE OF THE FOUR MSV11-J MODULES CAN BE PLACED IN A Q/Q
BACKPLANE SLOT. IF THIS IS ATTEMPTED PERMANENT DAMAGE WILL
BE DONE TO THE BOARDS AND TO THE SYSTEM.
THANK YOU for this post and the above vital warning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
While it would have been unlikely to attempt to use an MSV11-JD or MSV11-JE
memory board in that fashion when they should be reserved for use with
the PMI
memory function activated, at a point when it was just easier to pick up
a board
that was right at hand, it might occur. I assume that the above warning
is with respect
to magic smoke appearing if an MSV11-J board is ever placed into a Q/Q
backplane
slot such as what is present in a VT103.
One other example of damage occurring after placing two boards into two
adjacent
Q/Q slots is the two board 18 bit controller set for the RL01 / RL02
drives. The
M8013 / M8014 boards MUST NOT BE PLACED INTO A TWO ADJACENT
Q/Q BACKPLANE SLOTS. IF THIS IS ATTEMPTED, PERMANENT
DAMAGE WILL BE DONE TO THE BOARDS.
I have not seen this warning anywhere, but it was experienced first hand
around
20 years ago.
[Snip]
Although the MSV11-JD and MSV11-JE are PMI memories they can be
used in
two other Q-bus configurations.
1. If either of these two memories are used in slots 1 and/or 2 of
a Q/CD backplane such as the H9276 (BA11-S box) or in the
MicroPDP-11 BA23 backplane, and with the standard 15MHZ KDJ11-B
cpu (non-fpj compatible) in slot 3, the system will perform PMI
memory cycles. In the case of BA23 backplanes, a maximum of two
memory modules may be used in slots ahead of the processor,
with
a minimum of one memory module in front of the processor still
functioning as PMI memory. In the case of the H9276 backplane
a number of MSV11-JD/JE memory modules may be used ahead of the
processor bringing the system to a full 4MB of PMI memory.
This first configuration for the Qbus BA23 box is the standard expected
placement of the memory boards and exactly why they were manufactured.
2. If in a Q/CD or BA23 backplane the memories
reside in slots 2&3
with either of the KDF11 or KDJ11 processors in the slot 1
the MSV11-J memories will respond as standard Q-bus
memories,
performing normal Q-bus and block mode memory cycles. This use
of the MSV11-J memories is also true for the MicroVAX
cpu.
However the fact that the MicroVAX I cpu is a two board set
requires a slightly different configuration. Slots 1&2 will be
used for the MicroVAX I cpu boards with only one memory card
used, that being located in slot 3 for the BA23 backplane and
one or more memory cards being used for other Q/CD
backplanes.
The only constraint with either of the second configurations is
that in the BA23 or other Q/CD backplanes no module may be
placed adjacent to the MSV11-J that uses pins in the CD
connector. Instead leave an empty slot between the MSV11-J and
this option. An option which does not use the CD interconnect
may be placed adjacent to the MSV11-J.
I notice that this warning does not appear in the same BOLD LETTERS
as the first warning. While there is no guarantee, it seems likely that no
damage to the system or the boards will occur, but rather a lack of correct
operation of the system.
Likewise, I tend to assume that the lack of any warning of placing an
M8190-AE board into a Q/Q (ABAB backplane such as is present in
a VT103) is also acceptable.
In almost every case (except where there is an explicit warning against
doing so - of course that warning would have to be known and so
caution is probably best in all cases), all quad Qbus boards which operate
by themselves are able to exist in either an ABCD slot or an ABAB slot.
Otherwise, DEC would have been forced to manufacture two options of
each board when the BA23 backplane was introduced with 3 slots at the
top being ABCD and the other 5 slots being ABAB serpentine. Since
I know of only two examples (one of which I learned about less than
30 minutes ago), I feel that it is likely there are few, if any, additional
examples.
Jerome Fine
4156
days inactive
4158
days old
2 comments
3 participants
participants (3)
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bqt＠update.uu.se -
ddsnyder＠zoominternet.net -
jhfinedp3k＠compsys.to