8 Sep
2001
8 Sep
'01
8:51 a.m.
I asked about
PL/I not being included in the Hobbyist licensing program and
was told that was because Compaq no longer owns PL/I. I guess APL isn't in
the Hobbyist license set as that hasn't been a deliverable for a long time.
Does anyone know when it was last included in the ConDist sets? If so I
can look for it. I have several year's worth of ConDist CDs but have lost
the paperwork that listed the included products.
The first disk of every ConDist has the all paperwork on it as postscript
and text files. You can print it out again if you lose it :-) I believe the
'94 and '96 ConDists both have APL on them. Of course a PAK
generator solves the problem of missing PAKs quite nicely.
Yes it does, however I am dearly afraid that with HP and Compaq doing the
dance that the lore of such things will be permanently lost at some point.
If Compaq would just say "screw it, the next time someone requests a
license give them a non-expiring one." my heart would rest easier... 
8 Sep
8 Sep
1:41 p.m.
Yes it does,
however I am dearly afraid that with HP and Compaq doing the
dance that the lore of such things will be permanently lost at some point.
If Compaq would just say "screw it, the next time someone requests a
license give them a non-expiring one." my heart would rest easier...
Do you mean you are worried the Hobbyist program will go away? 
6:55 p.m.
At 12:51 PM 9/8/01 -0500, Eric wrote:
Do you mean you are worried the Hobbyist program will
go away?
Eric Dittman
No, I _know_ the Hobbyist program will go away. People like HP and Compaq
are starting to layoff people who they actually still have a use for in
order to cut costs. What's the ROI on the Hobbyist program? Zilch! So it
gives them some good press but it also causes their operations folks to get
calls from folks who are trying to find spares for machines they never
heard of. So they will kill it, I just hope they give out lifetime PAKs
before they do.
--Chuck
7:18 p.m.
No, I _know_ the Hobbyist program will go away. People
like HP and Compaq
are starting to layoff people who they actually still have a use for in
order to cut costs. What's the ROI on the Hobbyist program? Zilch! So it
gives them some good press but it also causes their operations folks to get
calls from folks who are trying to find spares for machines they never
heard of. So they will kill it, I just hope they give out lifetime PAKs
before they do.
--Chuck
One thought on ROI. Look at the Freeware CD V4, now look at the V5 CD's,
there is some definite ROI of the type they were looking for. Plus, how
many people buy systems, media, and documentation from them as a result of
the program? I've done all three.
Still, I fear you're right.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
10:24 p.m.
New subject: Vector 3
I seem to remember that someone, a long time ago, was
looking for an OS for the Vector 3. I have the CP/M (ver
2.22) disk for this system, as well as a few programs, that
I could teledisk if anyone's still interested.
9 Sep
9 Sep
7:31 a.m.
New subject: Vector 3/Teledisk
On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Wayne M. Smith wrote:
I seem to remember that someone, a long time ago, was
looking for an OS for the Vector 3. I have the CP/M (ver
2.22) disk for this system, as well as a few programs, that
I could teledisk if anyone's still interested.
Really?
The Vector machines that I have seen have all been hard-sectored. I would
LOVE to see a PC (running Teledisk, or ANY other software) be able to do
anything at all except CHOKE on a hard-sectored disk.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
8:48 a.m.
New subject: Vector 3/Teledisk
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4:28 p.m.
New subject: Vector 3/Teledisk
> Really?
> The Vector machines that I have seen have all been hard-sectored. I would
> LOVE to see a PC (running Teledisk, or ANY other software) be able to do
> anything at all except CHOKE on a hard-sectored disk.
On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Tony Duell wrote:
Am I allowed to do some hardware hacking? I see no
reason why a PC with a
suitable card could not read a hard-sectored disk....
Of course I meant a stock unmodified PC, with "normal" hardware.
But yes, I'd love to have you make disk controllers for PC that can handle
hard sectored, GCR, etc. It's certainly quite doable, but there isn't
much of a commercial market for them.
--
Fred Cisin cisin(a)xenosoft.com
XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com
PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366
Berkeley, CA 94701-1236
5:35 p.m.
New subject: Vector 3/Teledisk
> > The Vector machines that I have seen have
all been hard-sectored. I would
> > LOVE to see a PC (running Teledisk, or ANY other software) be able to do
> > anything at all except CHOKE on a hard-sectored disk.
> Am I allowed to do some hardware hacking? I see
no reason why a PC with a
> suitable card could not read a hard-sectored disk....
Of course I meant a stock unmodified PC, with
"normal" hardware.
But yes, I'd love to have you make disk controllers for PC that can handle
hard sectored, GCR, etc. It's certainly quite doable, but there isn't
much of a commercial market for them.
This sounds like a Catweasel controller, a device that does in fact read
many custom floppy formats. I know for sure it can read C64/128, which is
my primary interest in it.
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- I can't complain, but sometimes I still do. -- Joe Walsh -------------------
6:07 p.m.
New subject: Vector 3/Teledisk
On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
The Catweasel shouldn't have any difficulty with GCR (C64, etc.)
A board SIMILAR to it could be easily built that could handle
hard=sectored, but it is not at all clear whether the design decisions of
the Catweasel will permit hard sectored disks.
Have you tried it?
> > The
Vector machines that I have seen have all been hard-sectored. I would
> > LOVE to see a PC (running Teledisk, or ANY other software) be able to do
> > anything at all except CHOKE on a hard-sectored disk.
This sounds like a
Catweasel controller, a device that does in fact read
many custom floppy formats. I know for sure it can read C64/128, which is
my primary interest in it.
10 Sep
10 Sep
3:48 a.m.
New subject: Vector 3/Teledisk
> This sounds like a Catweasel controller, a device
that does in fact read
> many custom floppy formats. I know for sure it can read C64/128, which is
> my primary interest in it.
The Catweasel shouldn't have any difficulty with
GCR (C64, etc.)
A board SIMILAR to it could be easily built that could handle
hard=sectored, but it is not at all clear whether the design decisions of
the Catweasel will permit hard sectored disks. Have you tried it?
Nope, but I'm saving my pennies :-)
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- This message will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Jim. -- M:I ----
9 Sep
9 Sep
5:46 p.m.
New subject: Vector 3/Teledisk
One approach to reading/writing hard sectored media would be to cook up a
firmware set for, say, a UBICOM SX MCU that would be tasked to sample the signal
coming from the drive and keep track of it with respect to the index/sector
pulses, which, of course, could then be on the same line, since there'd be no
FDC to get confused when they occur.
The simple way would be to shuffle the sampled data into a RAM that's 9 bits
wide, where the 9th bit would be the state of the index line. Software could
beat on the resulting sample to format it into sensible and convenient form
based on the vast oversampling done with the MCU. No hardware outside the MCU
would be necessary, since the SX52, say, could mux the addresses to the 256Kb x
9 DRAM in firmware in plenty of time and would still have enough pins for the
data and the disk I/O. The SX52 can drive an FDD cable without external
buffers, by the way. All it would take is a bit of code and a 48 MHz
oscillator. That happens to be a VERY convenient clock rate for this sort of
task, too.
Once a data massaging software set is whipped into line, the makers of TELEDISK
couldn't complain about infringement, since there wouldn't be any, yet you could
use the massaged data to rewrite the diskette image at a remote location once it
was fiddled with enough to generate the appropriate write precomp, if needed.
With an SX52 at a either 48 or 96 MHz, you could easily do this job,
irrespective of whether the data is in manchester, GCR, FM, MFM, etc, since the
analysis would be handled by the PC off-line. Meanwhile, the data just has to
be transferred.
These little MCU's cost about $8, IIRC. They're in a QFP with 0.65mm pin
spacing but that's quite common. At least one British company, and several
American ones, among others, make adapters to which they can be soldered and
subsequently put in to a PGA socket. Moreover, if you don't mind drilling the
holes, you can make such a thingie yourself.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <cisin(a)xenosoft.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: Vector 3/Teledisk
> Really?
> The Vector machines that I have seen have all been hard-sectored. I would
> LOVE to see a PC (running Teledisk, or ANY other software) be able to do
> anything at all except CHOKE on a hard-sectored disk.
On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Tony Duell wrote:
Am I allowed to do some hardware hacking? I see
no reason why a PC with a
suitable card could not read a hard-sectored disk....
Of course I meant a stock unmodified PC, with "normal" hardware.
But yes, I'd love to have you make disk controllers for PC that can handle
hard sectored, GCR, etc. It's certainly quite doable, but there isn't
much of a commercial market for them.
--
Fred Cisin cisin(a)xenosoft.com
XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com
PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366
Berkeley, CA 94701-1236
6:17 p.m.
New subject: Vector 3/Teledisk
"one way WOULD BE"
"could"
"might work"
etc.
Once you DO it, let us know.
Until then, there is ONE simple, inexpensive, way to read the Vecto
hard-sectored diskettes:
USE A VECTOR.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
7:04 p.m.
New subject: Vector 3/Teledisk
On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
"one way WOULD BE"
"could"
"might work"
etc.
Once you DO it, let us know.
Until then, there is ONE simple, inexpensive, way to read the Vecto
hard-sectored diskettes:
USE A VECTOR.
Always keeping in mind that Vector used both 96tpi and 100tpi drives!
- don
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
8:34 p.m.
New subject: Vector 3/Teledisk
I'm quite certain someone with enough interest to do this can do it in a few of
days' concentrated effort, provided he's up to speed on the controller I
mentioned. The reason is that the controller is flash programmable in-situ, can
drive the FDD cable directly, and has 10x the necessary speed.
The software on the PC is probably not different from what's used with the
CatWeasel, and, in fact, the CatWeasel should be capable as well. Most guys
would rather curse the darkness than light one candle, however. I personally
don't have any interest in seeing this done at all, since I disposed of my last
Vector in '84, and seldom see hard-sectored diskettes.
With a 52-pin IC that does most of the work, that means hooking up the 52 pins
to a 30-pin 256Kx9 SIMM, a 4-pin oscillator, and the 8-bit ISA bus (<62 pins),
which is not a hell of a lot of work. A guy who likes high-level programming
would be able to do the bulk of the work, while the low-level sampling-control
is not a challenging task.
While this doesn't offer me anything I want today, someone's obviously looking
for a way to do it.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <cisin(a)xenosoft.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: Vector 3/Teledisk
"one way WOULD BE"
"could"
"might work"
etc.
Once you DO it, let us know.
Until then, there is ONE simple, inexpensive, way to read the Vecto
hard-sectored diskettes:
USE A VECTOR.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
6:17 p.m.
New subject: Vector 3/Teledisk
On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
And I also would be delighted to have you create such a controller. I'd
even forego the GCR part, but I would like to see 10 and 16 sector in
the 5.25" disks and 32 sector in the 8" ones!
Wow! That would be a real blessing.
- don
> Really?
> The Vector machines that I have seen have all been hard-sectored. I would
> LOVE to see a PC (running Teledisk, or ANY other software) be able to do
> anything at all except CHOKE on a hard-sectored disk.
On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Tony Duell wrote:
Am I allowed to do some hardware hacking? I see
no reason why a PC with a
suitable card could not read a hard-sectored disk....
Of course I meant a stock unmodified PC, with "normal" hardware.
But yes, I'd love to have you make disk controllers for PC that can handle
hard sectored, GCR, etc. It's certainly quite doable, but there isn't
much of a commercial market for them.
--
Fred Cisin cisin(a)xenosoft.com
XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com
PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366
Berkeley, CA 94701-1236
10 Sep
10 Sep
9:29 a.m.
New subject: Vector 3/Teledisk
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12:09 p.m.
New subject: Vector 3/Teledisk
It looks like what's needed is to get someone who has both the resources and the
need together with this task. I suggested a solution that requires a single
chip + and oscillator + a single SIMM/SIPP, simply because fewer people seem
inclined to build hardware than to build software. Though I've had several
VECTOR computers, albeit not in the past decade, I've never wanted to transfer
the content from hard-sectored 5-1/4" diskettes to some other environment. Not
even a NorthStar will read the hard sectored format, simply because
hard-sectoring allowed so much freedom in controller design. Soft sectoring to
a standard format required more uniformity than was generally applied to hard
sectoring. Consequently, the hard sectoring went away as a popular approach to
FD interfacing.
I can't blame anyone for NOT doing this job even though it can be done with only
three devices. The payoff just isn't there.
The easy way to solve the problem is to get the media to be read together with a
computer that can read them. That's already been proposed.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: Vector 3/Teledisk
Yes, I know :-). It's just that people so often forget that hardware
modifications are possible, and may sometimes be the best (or only) way
to solve a problem.
>
> > > Really?
> > > The Vector machines that I have seen have all been hard-sectored. I
would
> LOVE to see a PC (running Teledisk, or ANY other
software) be able to do
> anything at all except CHOKE on a hard-sectored disk.
On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Tony Duell wrote:
Am I allowed to do some hardware hacking? I see
no reason why a PC with a
suitable card could not read a hard-sectored disk....
Of course I meant a stock unmodified PC, with "normal" hardware.
But yes, I'd love to have you make disk controllers for PC that can handle
hard sectored, GCR, etc. It's certainly quite doable, but there isn't
much of a commercial market for them.
Why did I open my big mouth. Looks (and based on some of the other
messages here) like I should think about designing some 'extra' floppy
controllers for the PC. It just won't be soon, so I hope somebody else
has a go (as in builds the thing, not just waffles about how to do it --
a circuit works when there's a working PCB in front of me, not before
;-)) so I won't have to :-)
-tony
1:32 p.m.
New subject: Vector 3/Teledisk
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6:34 p.m.
New subject: Vector 3/Teledisk
Well, I should have guessed that, since programmable parts are probably not what
you'd choose for a job you're likely to have to maintain later. The
in-situ-programmability does make it pretty easy to maintain, though, and the
fact it's specified to drive 20 mA on each pin (though it clearly can't do that
on ALL its pins, makes it capable of driving the cable + terminations. If only
it were in an easier package to handle ...
I like building hardware too, but the hour or two that it would take for the
hardware, combined with the endless hours of fiddling with the software with
which to process the captured data sample, would make this less pleasant than
I'd prefer. I've got several old schematics for hard-sectored controllers based
on old I/O LSI's, e.g. a PIA and a sync-serial port, along with several
different schemes for responding to the index/sector pulses, all of which are
different, so I know it would be a fishing expedition, automated on the PC. One
of these schemes automatically inserted a sync character and 14 bytes of some
sync field into the stream each time a sector pulse was encountered. With such
irregularities, it has to be a mainly host-software task. The sampling hardware
is pretty simple, and even the firmware would be quite straightforward since the
MCU is so fast and the task so leisurely. The host-software, OTOH ...
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: Vector 3/Teledisk
>
> It looks like what's needed is to get someone who has both the resources and
the
need together
with this task. I suggested a solution that requires a single
Exactly... At the moment I don't have the need, but I do have a fair
number of other projects to do. So I am not volunteering to take this one
on...
chip + and oscillator + a single SIMM/SIPP,
simply because fewer people seem
inclined to build hardware than to build software. Though I've had several
As I have said many times I prefer to build hardware. So if I do this,
it's likely to end up as a board of 'interesting' chips :-)
-tony
11 Sep
11 Sep
10:12 a.m.
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9 Sep
9 Sep
6:47 p.m.
New subject: Vector 3/Teledisk
On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Wayne M. Smith wrote:
> I seem to remember that someone, a long time ago, was
> looking for an OS for the Vector 3. I have the CP/M
(ver
> 2.22) disk for this system, as well as a few
programs,
that
I could
teledisk if anyone's still interested.
Really?
The Vector machines that I have seen have all been LOVE to see a PC (running Teledisk, or ANY other
software)
be able to do
anything at all except CHOKE on a hard-sectored disk.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
Well, you're right, Fred, they are 16-sector disks and
Teledisk won't work - I don't have a Victor 3 and I hadn't
noticed.
I would lend out the disks for someone to make copies. The
ones I have are:
CP/M Ver. 2.22 Release 7
Memorite III Ver. 1.3 Release 5
Data Manager Ver. 1.13
Execuplan Ver. 1.20 Release 3
I'll be at VCF 5.0 on Sunday and can have them there if
there's interest.
-W
7:08 p.m.
New subject: Vector 3/Teledisk
On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Wayne M. Smith wrote:
<snip>
Well, you're right, Fred, they are 16-sector disks
and
Teledisk won't work - I don't have a Victor 3 and I hadn't
noticed.
I would lend out the disks for someone to make copies. The
ones I have are:
I do have a Vector Graphic, and would be pleased to take a crack
at duplicating them.
- don
CP/M Ver. 2.22 Release 7
Memorite III Ver. 1.3 Release 5
Data Manager Ver. 1.13
Execuplan Ver. 1.20 Release 3
I'll be at VCF 5.0 on Sunday and can have them there if
there's interest.
-W
8:36 p.m.
New subject: Vector 3/Teledisk
Now THERE's a solution!
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Maslin" <donm(a)cts.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: Vector 3/Teledisk
On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Wayne M. Smith wrote:
<snip>
Well, you're right, Fred, they are 16-sector
disks and
Teledisk won't work - I don't have a Victor 3 and I hadn't
noticed.
I would lend out the disks for someone to make copies. The
ones I have are:
I do have a Vector Graphic, and would be pleased to take a crack
at duplicating them.
- don
CP/M Ver. 2.22 Release 7
Memorite III Ver. 1.3 Release 5
Data Manager Ver. 1.13
Execuplan Ver. 1.20 Release 3
I'll be at VCF 5.0 on Sunday and can have them there if
there's interest.
-W
3:17 p.m.
New subject: Vector 3
On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Wayne M. Smith wrote:
I seem to remember that someone, a long time ago, was
looking for an OS for the Vector 3. I have the CP/M (ver
2.22) disk for this system, as well as a few programs, that
I could teledisk if anyone's still interested.
The chap in question is Michael J. Frank and he can be reached
at m.frankesq(a)verizon.net. I'm sure that he will be glad to
hear from you.
- don
8 Sep
8 Sep
8:17 p.m.
No, I _know_ the Hobbyist program will go away.
Some questions from me.
The Hobbyist program is from Encompass, is that a wholly owned
subsidiary of Compaq? I thought the Encompass thing meant it
was already outsourced.
When an Encompass liscence is called up are there any limits to it
(Time, Features)? I already heard what was said about marginal
compilers not being present, a checkmark for that one.
A word or two on what a PAK and a Condist are for the newbies
would be nice. (I guess I thought a PAK was a liscence; so then
are you saying liscences aren't lifetime?)
John A.
9:17 p.m.
At 01:17 AM 9/9/01 -0400, you wrote:
Encompass is a User's group that is funded by Compaq. The User's group (and
in particular the Dallas chapter) administers the program.
No, I _know_
the Hobbyist program will go away.
Some questions from me.
The Hobbyist program is from Encompass, is that a wholly owned
subsidiary of Compaq? I thought the Encompass thing meant it
was already outsourced. When an Encompass liscence is called up are there any
limits to it
(Time, Features)? I already heard what was said about marginal
compilers not being present, a checkmark for that one.
All Hobbyist VMS licenses are good for 1 year from the date they are
issued. They must then be renewed. All layered products (each with their
own license) are also 1 year licenses but my experience has been that they
are 1 yr from your last renewel. So if you request them with 1 month to go
on your DECUS^h^h^h^h^hEncompass membership they expire in one month.
A word or two on what a PAK and a Condist are for the
newbies
would be nice. (I guess I thought a PAK was a liscence; so then
are you saying liscences aren't lifetime?)
A ConDist is a "Consolidated Distribution" and it contains copies of all
the software that is current for a particular platform at a given instance
in time. If a new release of the OS has occurred since the last ConDist
issue (generally at least twice and perhaps 4 times per year) a copy of
that is included. Otherwise, it isn't. The CD version has anywhere from 8
to 15 CDs with packages each in their own directories on a particular CD
(the index tells you which one). You need a particular PAK (license) in
order to run the various utility. Not all layered products are licensed
through the hobbiest program, so there is more on the ConDist than you can
use.
Typically the licenses that DEC issued to its customers did _not_ expire
and were good on any release of VMS past the one they were issued for (so a
5.5 license would still work on a 6.0 or even 7.x release) however they
were limited to the "class" of computer they would license, so if it were
issued for a MicroVAX II and the customer upgraded to a MicroVAX III they
would have to buy more "units".
Generally you need a VAX-VMS and VMS-USER PAK to run the basic OS on a
single node. You need a CLUSTER license to cluster nodes and each node in
the cluster needs its own VMS PAK. Workstations (things with heads) need
different licenses than servers.
Typically someone who has licensed a machine can transfer the license to
you by filling out the license transfer paperwork and by you paying Compaq
$300 to process it.
--Chuck
10:39 p.m.
All Hobbyist VMS licenses are good for 1 year from the
date they are
issued. They must then be renewed. All layered products (each with their
own license) are also 1 year licenses but my experience has been that they
are 1 yr from your last renewel. So if you request them with 1 month to go
on your DECUS^h^h^h^h^hEncompass membership they expire in one month.
I've had a different result in that I was getting licenses with an expired
membership, in fact one that had been expired for over a year! Of course
my Eisner account was still active as well, so maybe that was all part of
the decay of DECUS before becoming Encompass.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
8356
days inactive
8359
days old
27 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
allain＠panix.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com -
dittman＠dittman.net -
donm＠cts.com -
edick＠idcomm.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
spectre＠stockholm.ptloma.edu -
wmsmith＠earthlink.net