18 Feb
1999
18 Feb
'99
9:47 a.m.
Jeff,
I tried a ST-251-1 but it wouldn't work. Here's the story:
I picked up a HP 9133XV drive with a bad drive in it. The XV is the one
that you can partion into 4 so that it looks like 4 HP 9895 floppy drives
to the system. It's the only hard drive that can be used on the HP 85, 150
and some of the others. This one has a Seagate ST-419 drive in. I replaced
it with a Seagate ST-251 that has the same number of heads but more tracks
and is smaller and faster. The system recognizes if but it won't format it.
It says that the drives are bad. I'd like to get it running again since the
XV drives are hard to find.
The 251 does have fewer sectors (17 vs 32). I don't know if that's why
it failed or not.
Joe
At 10:00 PM 2/17/99 -0600, you wrote:
Joe:
If you really need one of these, I may be able to dredge one up for you
(or at least one with similar geometry); but like the other guy says,
just about any drive with six heads ought to work.
BTW-- I will be sending you the 'stuff' tomorrow; it took me awhile
to get my act together.
Ciao.
Jeff
On Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:53:14 Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> writes:
I need a Seagate ST-419 to replace one that
failed in a HP
computer.
Anyone got one to spare?
Joe
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18 Feb
18 Feb
11:05 a.m.
On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Joe wrote:
I tried a ST-251-1 but it wouldn't work.
Here's the story:
I picked up a HP 9133XV drive with a bad drive in it. The XV is the one
that you can partion into 4 so that it looks like 4 HP 9895 floppy drives
to the system. It's the only hard drive that can be used on the HP 85, 150
and some of the others. This one has a Seagate ST-419 drive in. I replaced
it with a Seagate ST-251 that has the same number of heads but more tracks
and is smaller and faster. The system recognizes if but it won't format it.
It says that the drives are bad. I'd like to get it running again since the
XV drives are hard to find.
The 251 does have fewer sectors (17 vs 32). I don't know if that's why
it failed or not.
HP was fond of formatting hard drives at 256 bytes/sector. That is likely
the case with your ST-419.
- don
Joe
11:25 a.m.
On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Joe wrote:
> I tried a ST-251-1 but it wouldn't work. Here's the story:
> The 251 does have fewer sectors (17 vs 32). I don't know if that's why
> it failed or not.
On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Don Maslin wrote:
HP was fond of formatting hard drives at 256
bytes/sector. That is likely
the case with your ST-419.
Therefore, it would require a low-level format at 256 Bps (v the "usual"
512).
It might even need to have a 5/16" hole drilled through the whole unit :-)
Memo to self: always check whether any drives are mounted on other side
before drilling mounting holes.
5:50 p.m.
On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Joe wrote:
At 02:05 PM 2/18/99 -0800, you wrote:
Low-level formatting can. A normal "format" is not low-level.
--
Ward Griffiths
"the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then
you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor
HP was fond of formatting hard drives at 256 bytes/sector. That is likely
the case with your ST-419.
Yes, this one uses 256 bytes/sector but wouldn't reformatting it take
care of that?
8:16 p.m.
At 11:50 PM 2/18/99 -0500, you wrote:
On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Joe wrote:
That's true for MS DOS but what about on a non-MS DOS HP computer?
Joe
At 02:05 PM 2/18/99 -0800, you wrote:
Low-level formatting can. A normal "format" is not low-level.
HP was fond of formatting hard drives at 256 bytes/sector. That is likely
the case with your ST-419.
Yes, this one uses 256 bytes/sector but wouldn't reformatting it take
care of that? --
Ward Griffiths
"the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then
you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor
7:49 p.m.
On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Joe wrote:
At 02:05 PM 2/18/99 -0800, you wrote:
I would think so if it does its format in the same way that the CP/M
machines that I am familiar with do, Joe. That is, they do both low level
and regular format simultaneously. Some smarter (later) drives resis that
kind of thing, but I do not think that an ST-251 qualifies!
- don
HP was fond of formatting hard drives at 256 bytes/sector. That is likely
the case with your ST-419.
Yes, this one uses 256 bytes/sector but wouldn't reformatting it take
care of that? 
19 Feb
19 Feb
10:08 a.m.
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18 Feb
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12:03 p.m.
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7:09 p.m.
At 11:03 PM 2/18/99 +0000, you wrote:
No, I'm not sure. I'm just using the initialize command in HP BASIC and
the format command in HP CPM. That's the only "tools" they give you. I
have no idea how to do a low level format on these.
Jeff,
I tried a ST-251-1 but it wouldn't work. Here's the story:
I picked up a HP 9133XV drive with a bad drive in it. The XV is the one
that you can partion into 4 so that it looks like 4 HP 9895 floppy drives
to the system. It's the only hard drive that can be used on the HP 85, 150
and some of the others. This one has a Seagate ST-419 drive in. I replaced
it with a Seagate ST-251 that has the same number of heads but more tracks
and is smaller and faster. The system recognizes if but it won't format it.
Are you sure you're really doing a low-level format?
It's possible the controller (in the 9133) is expecting to see a drive
with the correct sector pattern - the low-level format - already in
place. When it doesn't see it, it complains.
That's what I'm wondering too. FWIW I did replace a Seagate ST-225 in
another drive with a drive from a PC and it worked fine after initializing.
I don't know if the 9133 (as supplied) is capable of low-level
formatting. On some other controllers (not HP, nothing to do with the
HP150), this was done by setting the DIP switches correctly and turning
on. Alternatively, you might need a special ROM set for the controller
board, or even a special manufacturing rig.
That's what I thought but maybe HP has some special sector markers on one
of the platters.
It says that the drives are bad. I'd like to
get it running again since the
XV drives are hard to find.
The 251 does have fewer sectors (17 vs 32). I don't know if that's why
it failed or not.
The 251 is (AFAIK) soft-sectored. The 17 sectors is something that's
specified when you low-level format it.
If it is the case that you're not doing a low-level format, then not only
do you need an ST419, but also an ST419 that's been formatted on this
type of controller
Yes, the only way to find out is to get a 419 and try it.
Joe
-tony
19 Feb
19 Feb
10:12 a.m.
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4:43 p.m.
At 09:12 PM 2/19/99 +0000, you wrote:
Hmmm... It sounds to me like you're only doing a high-level format.
Incidentally, does anyone know what the internal DIP switches on a 9133,
etc, do? I've heard that you can put larger hard disks in to these units
and set the DIP switches correctly, and it'll work. Never managed to
figure out how, though.
I do one some models. The jumpers on the back of the board on the V and
XV models determine how it's "partitioned". I think the settings of the
jumpers are the only difference in the V and XV model. Some systems like
the HP 150 and HP 85 can't handle a full 5 meg drive so changing the
jumpers makes the drive look like four 1.15 Meg drives.
I have seen some other models (possible the H model) of the 9133/9134
that have jumpers marked 10M/20M. Those look like they're to select a 10
or 20 Meg hard drive but I haven't tried it. You need to know what drive
geometery it expects before you could upgrade it. You should be able to get
the service manual for the drive from HP. FWIW I've started keeping record
of the drives that I find inside the boxs, that may eventually shed some
light on this.
BTW anyone have a Vertex V130 drive to spare? I need one for a 7958A. It
has some strange geometery, something like 980 cylinders and 3 heads.
Are you sure you're really doing a low-level
format?
No, I'm not sure. I'm just using the initialize command in HP BASIC and
the format command in HP CPM. That's the only "tools" they give you. I
have no idea how to do a low level format on these. And the idea of disassembling a few K of 6809 code
(there's a 6809 in
these machines) doesn't appeal either ;-)
If it has to be LL formatted then I'm screwed! Even if I found another
419 it may not work. I suppose there may be a device dependent command to
LL format it but I have no idea what it is. If I knew what the command was
then I could send it using the HP-IB bus analyzer.
Joe
>The 251 is (AFAIK) soft-sectored. The 17
sectors is something that's
>specified when you low-level format it.
That's really part of the low-level format IMHO. The ST251, etc has
nothing recorded on any surface at the factory. You can essentially put
what you like there as part of the low-level format. 
18 Feb
18 Feb
12:31 p.m.
Date sent: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:47:20
Send reply to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: I need a ST-419 hard drive
Originally to: jeff.kaneko(a)juno.com
Jeff,
I tried a ST-251-1 but it wouldn't work. Here's the story:
I picked up a HP 9133XV drive with a bad drive in it. The XV is the one
that you can partion into 4 so that it looks like 4 HP 9895 floppy drives
to the system. It's the only hard drive that can be used on the HP 85, 150
and some of the others. This one has a Seagate ST-419 drive in. I
replaced it with a Seagate ST-251 that has the same number of heads but
more tracks and is smaller and faster. The system recognizes if but it
won't format it. It says that the drives are bad. I'd like to get it
running again since the XV drives are hard to find.
The 251 does have fewer sectors (17 vs 32). I don't know if that's why
it failed or not.
Joe
That exactly why this failed. The platters themselves can't handle
that much sectors.
Try:
Find 2 HD's:
ST296N (electronics can be dead but must have good pack)
ST277R (the pack can be bad, but needs the electronics.)
Use the ST277R board on the ST296N pack to give you
compatiablity for the HP85.
There are many other drives that has 32 sectors or up but with
"different interface" but another hd that use HDA to logicboard
interface that shares same design and take the RLL rated logic
board to another drive that does this 32 or up sectors.
Jason D.
7:01 p.m.
At 06:31 PM 2/18/99 -0500, Jason wrote:
Try:
Find 2 HD's:
ST296N (electronics can be dead but must have good pack)
ST277R (the pack can be bad, but needs the electronics.)
Use the ST277R board on the ST296N pack to give you
compatiablity for the HP85.
Great! Now I have to find TWO drives instead of one! :-/ Just kidding.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Joe
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