16 Feb
2003
16 Feb
'03
2:44 a.m.
Our small business caters to the classic computer community, although
after exchanging notes with a number of you folks over the last few
weeks I can see our disk drive and tape drive emulators are beyond
the budget that many of you have. Arraid equipment generally runs
from $3,500 to $14,500. However, besides letting you
know that there
are still a few emulation companies left in the world, perhaps we
can
help out some of you.
Arraid -- a small American business, made up mainly of engineers --
spends what little extra money we have looking for labs that need our
equipment. Our target client has classic (we use the word legacy)
computers doing some sort of critical function. These computers have
failing peripherals and Arraid can solve that issue without software
changes. If you know of labs, people, or businesses in the classic
community that could benefit from our emulated peripherals, we pay a
5% finder's fee, each time a lead results in a sale. That money can
go to fund your classic computer activities.
Thanks for your time...
Dave Dunn
ARRAID - Legacy Peripheral Solutions
dthdunn(a)earthlink.net
http://www.arraid.com
16 Feb
16 Feb
10:25 a.m.
UGGGGG!!!!!
Ok, what moderator let that obvious advertisement through??? I know it
wasn't me.
Sorry folks, I'll try to ensure that doesn't happen again.
Jay West
List Admin
1:23 p.m.
Ok, what moderator let that obvious advertisement
through??? I know it
wasn't me.
But it was on topic, at least. It didn't seem like the usual scattershot
spam crap sent-every-which-way-and-here.
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- If you're not very clever, you should be conciliatory. -- Benjamin Disraeli
1:32 p.m.
UGGGGG!!!!!
Ok, what moderator let that obvious advertisement through??? I know it
wasn't me.
I really don't see a problem with this message.
OK, it was a commercial advert, but AFAIK neither adverts or non-hobby
messages are banned here.
It was _one_ message, plain text, and wasn't exceessively long (and since
it was only one message, it's not been posted too often).
It was _certainly_ on-topic. It does relate to classic computers. OK,
many of us like to run old peripherals too, but not always. I seem to
remember a message a couple of weeks back about a 'great hardware hack'
interfacing a modern hard disk to an HP mini. Why was that on-topic and
the commercial equivalent not?
Sorry folks, I'll try to ensure that doesn't
happen again.
Please don't. Yes, please remove off-topic SPAM, but adverts related to
classic computers, commercial or not, should be allowed here provided
the same advert doesn't start appearing too often.
-tony
3:14 p.m.
Please don't. Yes, please remove off-topic SPAM,
but adverts related to
classic computers, commercial or not, should be allowed here provided
the same advert doesn't start appearing too often.
My initial reaction was actually fairly difficult for me, as I know and like
several of the people at Arraid.
On the one hand, it's obviously on-topic as it lets others here know that
there are modern drive replacements for systems we all would like to keep
running. On the other hand, their products are generally well outside the
price range of the home hobbyist, so not sure how much it helps us. Thus, my
impression is that the post wasn't targeted at the listmembers, but rather
at sales prospects the listmembers may know. Tony asked how this post was
different than Bob Shannon's post about his drive replacement. Very simple -
Bob wasn't posting here asking us to give the names of companies we know and
have trusted relationships with, so he could call them and hard sell them
his product. I'm NOT saying Bob would hard sell, or even that Arraid would
hard sell (doubtful). But what about other companies posting here who may
do so?
So, if on-topic SPAM is allowed here as Tony requests above... guess we
allow posting by crisis, and MBG, and keyways, and imsai.net, oh, and all
the scrap dealers... but it's ok as long as it doesn't appear too often. Ok,
let me start a spreadsheet, so I can track how often each company posts.
I'll have to trace each email address on an advert, so I can tell if they're
trying to post from another address. Oh, and I'll also have to call
references on each company, so I know if they have a history of hardselling
any references we give them... Ummm wait... I do have a day job.
All sarcasm aside... If the membership at large wants to allow on-topic
adverts, that's fine. But don't make it hard on ME to moderate in the
future - for one example out of many - I suspect Tony's definition of "too
often" (wrt adverts appearing) is different from Sellams, which is different
from Jerome's, etc.
Jay
3:48 p.m.
First, sorry for the double/double posting. It was not intentional.
To calm anyone's concerns, I have no intention of ever posting in
your forum again, other than to respond to comments or questions, if
that is ever needed.
Given that many in the hobbyist community appear to be cash-strapped,
I thought my previous posting to be a win/win offer. If you know a
business or school or whatever that needs the solutions we offer,
there is compensation which you can then use to further your hobbyist
activities. I'm not sure how that is bad and do appreciate your
members not wanting this information sharing tool to be hijacked by
the less sensitive.
Finally, many thanks to the half dozen people who have sent me very
positive comments off forum. I will respond to each of you off forum.
David
5:20 p.m.
On Sun, 16 Feb 2003, Jay West wrote:
So, if on-topic SPAM is allowed here as Tony requests
above... guess we
allow posting by crisis, and MBG, and keyways, and imsai.net, oh, and all
the scrap dealers... but it's ok as long as it doesn't appear too often. Ok,
I have no problem with that. All the companies mentioned deal in
businesses that are basically on-topic. Heck, every message I post has an
advert for VintageTech.
All sarcasm aside... If the membership at large wants
to allow on-topic
adverts, that's fine. But don't make it hard on ME to moderate in the
future - for one example out of many - I suspect Tony's definition of "too
often" (wrt adverts appearing) is different from Sellams, which is different
from Jerome's, etc.
I just object to obvious spam as an involuntary reaction. Now that that
problem has been cleared up (I still receive the occasional spam to
foo(a)siconic.com but there is nothing to be done about that) there is
nothing for me to piss and moan over in that regard. David Dunn's posting
was not spam at all. He was just saying, "Hey, if you know a company that
is trying to keep a legacy system alive, call us." There's nothing wrong
with a little capitalism here and there. Gotta pay the mortgage somehow.
BTW, I am taking <foo(a)siconic.com> out of service for the most part. I
finally took the time to figure out how to create filters in PINE (it was
quite simple). So now all my CC correspondence will be done from
<vcf(a)vintage.org> (or rather <vcf(a)siconic.com> as I still haven't figured
out how to configure my mail server properly, but either domain is valid).
So anyway, please update your address books as I will only be checking
foo occasionally and will delete it entirely in a few weeks. Ok, I'll
probably make it an alias to "vcf".
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
6:20 p.m.
On Sun, 16 Feb 2003, Jay West wrote:
I think that your judgement was sound in this case and worthy of
our reliance on it in the future.
- don
Please
don't. Yes, please remove off-topic SPAM, but adverts related to
classic computers, commercial or not, should be allowed here provided
the same advert doesn't start appearing too often.
My initial reaction was actually fairly difficult for me, as I know and like
several of the people at Arraid.
On the one hand, it's obviously on-topic as it lets others here know that
there are modern drive replacements for systems we all would like to keep
running. On the other hand, their products are generally well outside the
price range of the home hobbyist, so not sure how much it helps us. Thus, my
impression is that the post wasn't targeted at the listmembers, but rather
at sales prospects the listmembers may know. Tony asked how this post was
different than Bob Shannon's post about his drive replacement. Very simple -
Bob wasn't posting here asking us to give the names of companies we know and
have trusted relationships with, so he could call them and hard sell them
his product. I'm NOT saying Bob would hard sell, or even that Arraid would
hard sell (doubtful). But what about other companies posting here who may
do so?
So, if on-topic SPAM is allowed here as Tony requests above... guess we
allow posting by crisis, and MBG, and keyways, and imsai.net, oh, and all
the scrap dealers... but it's ok as long as it doesn't appear too often. Ok,
let me start a spreadsheet, so I can track how often each company posts.
I'll have to trace each email address on an advert, so I can tell if they're
trying to post from another address. Oh, and I'll also have to call
references on each company, so I know if they have a history of hardselling
any references we give them... Ummm wait... I do have a day job.
All sarcasm aside... If the membership at large wants to allow on-topic
adverts, that's fine. But don't make it hard on ME to moderate in the
future - for one example out of many - I suspect Tony's definition of "too
often" (wrt adverts appearing) is different from Sellams, which is different
from Jerome's, etc.
Jay 
17 Feb
17 Feb
7:56 a.m.
So is the list now to to have 2 categories of Spam ? One
is acceptable if it is cunningly worded and from industry
insiders and the other from ordinary spammers is not.
It's easy for the modulator to recognise the obvious, the
african spam that is really Scam, the Penis enlargers and
such. If industry spam is to be accepted where can we
draw the line. I frankly am enraged and offended with the
intrusive pop-ups demanding that I download some
"necessary" program in order to view some web-page,
no matter how enhancing it may be.
By the same token I regularly get Spam from IT vendors
of repute, and occasionally even don't delete them in
disgust and I always disclaim sites or companies that
want to put me on their mailing list.
Comparing Sellam's or M. Nadeau's notices, or FA Epay
alerts and pointers to a product a list member requests,
to discounters or "friendly" industry Spam is a straw man.
One man's Spam is anothers "info package"
The message was obviously a shill. No question.
If business seekers or headhunters see fit to send out
Spam lures, let them do it individually, not on the list.
On the other hand, the other "no subject" message, from
analog and digital solutions, while tasteless, was
allowable, IMHO.
Do we also want to open the doors to chip vendors who
want to dismantle a working vintage machine in order to
feed some chip collectors fetish?
While my response may be considered "snide" by some
it was well within the boundaries of acceptable language
and couched in the same reasonable tone as the poster.
And the word "legacy" as used by most of the large
computer companies usually means on "the soon to be
no longer supported, but still too popular to drop without
tarnishing marketing image" list
Lawrence
On 16 Feb 2003, , Don Maslin wrote:
On Sun, 16 Feb 2003, Jay West wrote:
I think that your judgement was sound in this case and
worthy of our reliance on it in the future.
- don
lgwalker@ mts.net
Please
don't. Yes, please remove off-topic SPAM, but
adverts related to classic computers, commercial or not,
should be allowed here provided the same advert doesn't
start appearing too often.
My initial reaction was actually fairly difficult for me,
as I know and like several of the people at Arraid.
On the one hand, it's obviously on-topic as it lets others
here know that there are modern drive replacements for
systems we all would like to keep running. On the other
hand, their products are generally well outside the price
range of the home hobbyist, so not sure how much it helps
us. Thus, my impression is that the post wasn't targeted
at the listmembers, but rather at sales prospects the
listmembers may know. Tony asked how this post was
different than Bob Shannon's post about his drive
replacement. Very simple - Bob wasn't posting here asking
us to give the names of companies we know and have trusted
relationships with, so he could call them and hard sell
them his product. I'm NOT saying Bob would hard sell, or
even that Arraid would hard sell (doubtful). But what
about other companies posting here who may do so?
So, if on-topic SPAM is allowed here as Tony requests
above... guess we allow posting by crisis, and MBG, and
keyways, and imsai.net, oh, and all the scrap dealers...
but it's ok as long as it doesn't appear too often. Ok,
let me start a spreadsheet, so I can track how often each
company posts. I'll have to trace each email address on an
advert, so I can tell if they're trying to post from
another address. Oh, and I'll also have to call references
on each company, so I know if they have a history of
hardselling any references we give them... Ummm wait... I
do have a day job.
All sarcasm aside... If the membership at large wants to
allow on-topic adverts, that's fine. But don't make it
hard on ME to moderate in the future - for one example out
of many - I suspect Tony's definition of "too often" (wrt
adverts appearing) is different from Sellams, which is
different from Jerome's, etc.
Jay
3:15 p.m.
Please
don't. Yes, please remove off-topic SPAM, but adverts related to
classic computers, commercial or not, should be allowed here provided
the same advert doesn't start appearing too often.
My initial reaction was actually fairly difficult for me, as I know and like
several of the people at Arraid.
On the one hand, it's obviously on-topic as it lets others here know that
there are modern drive replacements for systems we all would like to keep
running. On the other hand, their products are generally well outside the
price range of the home hobbyist, so not sure how much it helps us. Thus, my impression is that the post wasn't targeted at the
listmembers, but rather
at sales prospects the listmembers may know. Tony asked how this post was
Agreed...
On the other hand, I got the impression that the poster of this advert
had at least taken the time to read the list and/or find out what we
really do here. That instantly raises the message well above the 'spam'
level.
So, if on-topic SPAM is allowed here as Tony requests
above... guess we
allow posting by crisis, and MBG, and keyways, and imsai.net, oh, and all
the scrap dealers... but it's ok as long as it doesn't appear too often. Ok,
How would you feel if a scrap dealer posted 'I've just got a [Straight-8
| Altair | PERQ 2 | HP2100A | Apple 1 | insert your favourite classic]
in, which I will sell for 10% above the scrap metal value'. Is that spam,
or a darn good lead?
Nobody wants this list to turn into just adverts, but I think I'd find
_occassionaly_ posts like that less annoying that E-bay trailers from
regular list members.
-tony
6:48 p.m.
Quothe Tony Duell, from writings of Tue, Feb 18, 2003 at 12:24:01AM +0000:
On the other hand, I got the impression that the
poster of this advert
had at least taken the time to read the list and/or find out what we
really do here. That instantly raises the message well above the 'spam'
level.
Yes, and the fact that he didn't try to annoy us with looney
marketroid-speak, by directly referring to our systems as "legacy
systems," but as classic or vintage systems (I forget which), which
was to his credit as well (he only used "legacy systems" in
parenthesis, along with an explanation of the term).
Nobody wants this list to turn into just adverts, but
I think I'd find
_occassionaly_ posts like that less annoying that E-bay trailers from
regular list members.
Indeed.
--
Copyright (C) 2002 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
rdd(a)rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
16 Feb
16 Feb
5:13 p.m.
On Mon, 17 Feb 2003, Tony Duell wrote:
It was _one_ message, plain text, and wasn't
exceessively long (and since
it was only one message, it's not been posted too often).
Indeed, it inadvertently caused more messages in reply than it merited ;)
Please don't. Yes, please remove off-topic SPAM,
but adverts related to
classic computers, commercial or not, should be allowed here provided
the same advert doesn't start appearing too often.
I concur with that sentiment.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
5:32 p.m.
allow posting by crisis, and MBG, and keyways, and
imsai.net, oh, and all
^^^
Excuse me? I don't post ads or spam...
Is there another mbg?
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | email: mbg at world.std.com |
| | |
| "this space | (s/ at /@/) |
| unavoidably left blank" | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
17 Feb
17 Feb
2:42 a.m.
I think thats a typo, probably was supposed to read MBC, a large
west-coast HP support house.
And yes, there are lots of MBG's, my neighbor has one in his garage!
Megan wrote:
allow posting
by crisis, and MBG, and keyways, and imsai.net, oh, and all
^^^
Excuse me? I don't post ads or spam...
Is there another mbg?
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | email: mbg at world.std.com |
| | |
| "this space | (s/ at /@/) |
| unavoidably left blank" | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ 
11:45 a.m.
Doh!
All I know is the car has built-in rust protection, it won't start if it
rains or snows!
Chad Fernandez wrote:
Bob Shannon wrote:
I think thats a typo, probably was supposed to
read MBC, a large
west-coast HP support house.
And yes, there are lots of MBG's, my neighbor has one in his garage!
That's not an MBG, it's an MGB :-)
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA 
16 Feb
16 Feb
8:24 p.m.
On Sunday, February 16, 2003, Tony Duell wrote:
I really don't see a problem with this message.
Neither do I, obviously. :-)
Jay West said:
I remove about ten OT spams daily. Right now, the Nigerian scam is the most
popular. It used to be KLEZ. Of late there have also been a lot of advert
spams in Spanish.
--
Jeffrey Sharp
Sorry folks, I'll try to ensure that
doesn't happen again.
Please don't. Yes, please remove off-topic SPAM 
17 Feb
17 Feb
1:08 a.m.
New subject: No SPAM (was: Emulated Peripherals)
UGGGGG!!!!!
Ok, what moderator let that obvious advertisement
through??? I know it
wasn't me.
Sorry folks, I'll try to ensure that doesn't
happen again.
Excuse me ?
It might have been advertisement, but not more than what other
do. In fact, I considere all these 'xxx for sale' messages whose
bodies include a 'see my ebay link' SPAM and unwanted advertisement
(note: this doesn't mean the messages when someone points out
possible interesting facts and auctions, only the primitive
self pointing advertisement).
I found the letter quite apropriate and sesitive made.
My Impression is that Dave realy tried to be of help
to our comunity. It also looks like he has looked onto
the CC archives before writeing. That's more than some
list members do.
Gruss
H.
--
VCF Europa 4.0 am 03./04. Mai 2003 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/
7904
days inactive
7905
days old
22 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bshannon＠tiac.net -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
donm＠cts.com -
dthdunn＠earthlink.net -
fernande＠internet1.net -
Hans.Franke＠mch20.sbs.de -
jss＠subatomix.com -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
lgwalker＠mts.net -
marvin＠rain.org -
mbg＠TheWorld.com -
rdd＠rddavis.org -
spectre＠stockholm.ptloma.edu -
vcf＠siconic.com