17 Apr
2016
17 Apr
'16
6:43 p.m.
From: drlegendre
If they use sleeve bearings, take a close look at the
material.. does
it have the sintered look of oil-impregnated bronze (Oilite)?
It looks like copper, actually; it's quite reddish. (The central pin seems to
be steel of some sort.) But I'm not familiar with Oilite, so I can't say for
sure.
Are there channels in the bearing to allow the
distribution or
retention of grease?
There's a section of reduced diameter in the center of the pin; the ends are
full diameter, with no grooves of any kind. The sleeve is a plain cylinder.
Those fans tend to run at pretty low RPM
Not these. They are doing very high RPM indeed.
Noel
17 Apr
17 Apr
6:52 p.m.
Ok, so there's an annular groove cut mid-way along the length of the shaft.
That might well be for retention of lubricant. You'll have to forgive my
assumptions about low RPM operation - I took these to be the typical
'Muffin' type fans, that run about 600 RPM.
This is a long-shot, but does the groove in the shaft communicate with a
passage in the bearing, by any chance? Just wondering if there's a wicking
type oiling system in the design, as seen in larger electric motors. If
there's no passage for lube, then I'd stick with the suggestion to use a
light-bodied grease like Phil's and make sure to pack the groove full of
it. But again, there's no harm in using a medium-body motor oil, like 30W
or 10W-40. It's not as if it's going to be in 24/7/365 service, eh?
What's the diameter of the shaft, btw? 1/4" or less? Got any pics of the
parts?
On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 8:43 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:
From:
drlegendre
If they use sleeve bearings, take a close look at
the material.. does
it have the sintered look of oil-impregnated bronze (Oilite)?
It looks like copper, actually; it's quite reddish. (The central pin seems
to
be steel of some sort.) But I'm not familiar with Oilite, so I can't say
for
sure.
Are there channels in the bearing to allow the
distribution or
retention of grease?
There's a section of reduced diameter in the center of the pin; the ends
are
full diameter, with no grooves of any kind. The sleeve is a plain cylinder.
Those fans tend to run at pretty low RPM
Not these. They are doing very high RPM indeed.
Noel
18 Apr
18 Apr
8:40 a.m.
On 04/17/2016 08:43 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
Yes, that is a sintered bronze bushing, made by compressing
powdered bronze in a press.
The pores allow oil to flow from the cotton packing around
it to the bushing/journal interface.
If you open one of these up, make sure to oil the cotton
packing to supply oil gradually to the bearing.
Jon
From:
drlegendre
If they use sleeve bearings, take a close look at
the material.. does
it have the sintered look of oil-impregnated bronze (Oilite)?
It looks like copper, actually; it's quite reddish. (The central pin seems to
be steel of some sort.) But I'm not familiar with Oilite, so I can't say for
sure. 
2:53 p.m.
I did some research among the antique fan collectors on the web.
Here's what's been recommended, in no particular order:
1. SAE 20 *non-detergent* motor oil
2. Turbine oil (ISO 32 SAE 15)
3. 3-in-1 Electric Motor Oil (SAE 20) *note* Not the multipurpose "red
can" stuff, but the blue can motor oil.
4. Royal Purple Synthetic INDUSTRIAL oil ISO 68 ~ SAE 25
5. Lithium grease in an aerosol spray--what I use. Be sure to shake
the can before application.
FWIW,
Chuck
7:11 p.m.
On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
I did some research among the antique fan collectors
on the web.
Here's what's been recommended, in no particular order:
And if you're looking to preserve an extremely valuable museum piece and
need the ultimate in non-reactive oil or grease, a perfluorinated polyether
(PFPE) "oil" or one with PTFE nanoparticles is virtually guaranteed not to
react with anything you might find a computer. But it is very pricey. $25
a gram for Brayco 815z "oil" and $28 a gram for Braycote 601EF or 602EF
(with MoS2). The solvent you need in order to remove them is $0.25 a
gram. But a gram of this stuff goes a long way. I'd go with 602EF for
fan bearings.
But it does somewhat reduce the need to worry about what happens if the
"oil" gets hot or hits rubber or paper or plastic. It doesn't dry out,
evaporate, or gum up at normal temperatures, since it's teflon and
molysufide microbearings in liquid teflon. I wouldn't buy it to use for a
personal machine unless it was one of a kind, or someone at the lab was
throwing out a tube of out-of-date braycote. (Which hasn't been the case,
I don't have a personal stash).
7:45 p.m.
Forgive my ignorance..
What could possibly justify a cost of $25,000 (US) for a liter of this
Braycote material? Of course, I'm extrapolating - $25/gm, assuming 1000gm/l.
Sounds like a government contract rate to me. MoS2 and TFE-rich lubricants
have been readily available for decades - and while they tend to be on the
pricier side, I've seen nothing that touches $25-28/gm.
On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Eric Korpela <korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu>
wrote:
On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Chuck Guzis
<cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
I did some research among the antique fan
collectors on the web.
Here's what's been recommended, in no particular order:
And if you're looking to preserve an extremely valuable museum piece and
need the ultimate in non-reactive oil or grease, a perfluorinated polyether
(PFPE) "oil" or one with PTFE nanoparticles is virtually guaranteed not to
react with anything you might find a computer. But it is very pricey. $25
a gram for Brayco 815z "oil" and $28 a gram for Braycote 601EF or 602EF
(with MoS2). The solvent you need in order to remove them is $0.25 a
gram. But a gram of this stuff goes a long way. I'd go with 602EF for
fan bearings.
But it does somewhat reduce the need to worry about what happens if the
"oil" gets hot or hits rubber or paper or plastic. It doesn't dry out,
evaporate, or gum up at normal temperatures, since it's teflon and
molysufide microbearings in liquid teflon. I wouldn't buy it to use for a
personal machine unless it was one of a kind, or someone at the lab was
throwing out a tube of out-of-date braycote. (Which hasn't been the case,
I don't have a personal stash).
8:39 p.m.
On 04/18/2016 07:45 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
Forgive my ignorance..
What could possibly justify a cost of $25,000 (US) for a liter of
this Braycote material? Of course, I'm extrapolating - $25/gm,
assuming 1000gm/l.
Sounds like a government contract rate to me. MoS2 and TFE-rich
lubricants have been readily available for decades - and while they
tend to be on the pricier side, I've seen nothing that touches
$25-28/gm.
What's the going price per gallon of sperm whale oil?
I'm very careful with PTFE-enhanced lubricants, such as TriFlow--they
tend, for me, at least, to get gummy. A good petroleum oil should last
decades in this particular application.
--Chuck
9:15 p.m.
"What's the going price per gallon of sperm whale oil?"
Unless the Braycote products are directly interchangeable with Sperm Whale
oil, how is your comparison even remotely relevant?
They are rendered from entirely different sources. Whale oil is a natural,
animal-derived product that pretty much went out with the depletion of the
resources (and finally, international treaties). P/TFE and MoS2 were
formulated in industrial laboratories, and to this day, are turned out by
industrial processes.
Am I incorrect?
On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 10:39 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 04/18/2016 07:45 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
Forgive my ignorance..
What could possibly justify a cost of $25,000 (US) for a liter of
this Braycote material? Of course, I'm extrapolating - $25/gm,
assuming 1000gm/l.
Sounds like a government contract rate to me. MoS2 and TFE-rich
lubricants have been readily available for decades - and while they
tend to be on the pricier side, I've seen nothing that touches
$25-28/gm.
What's the going price per gallon of sperm whale oil?
I'm very careful with PTFE-enhanced lubricants, such as TriFlow--they
tend, for me, at least, to get gummy. A good petroleum oil should last
decades in this particular application.
--Chuck
10:22 p.m.
On 04/18/2016 09:15 PM, drlegendre . wrote:
"What's the going price per gallon of sperm
whale oil?"
Unless the Braycote products are directly interchangeable with Sperm
Whale oil, how is your comparison even remotely relevant?
They are rendered from entirely different sources. Whale oil is a
natural, animal-derived product that pretty much went out with the
depletion of the resources (and finally, international treaties).
P/TFE and MoS2 were formulated in industrial laboratories, and to
this day, are turned out by industrial processes.
Am I incorrect?
No, just pointing out that there *are* other oils with very high price
tags--and in years past, could be purchased by the gallon.
ISTR that the antique clock folks still hoard whale oil.
--Chuck
7:07 a.m.
On Apr 18, 2016, at 11:15 PM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:
Unless the Braycote products are directly
interchangeable with Sperm Whale
oil, how is your comparison even remotely relevant?
They are rendered from entirely different sources. Whale oil is a natural,
animal-derived product that pretty much went out with the depletion of the
resources (and finally, international treaties). P/TFE and MoS2 were
formulated in industrial laboratories, and to this day, are turned out by
industrial processes.
Braycote has enough nice properties that it is also (often) the lubricant of choice for a
lot of space applications - which in many cases justify its (ahem) astronomical price. Its
low out-gassing in vacuum and lack of mobility are huge assets there. I have not
personally used it in any terrestrial applications, nor are any of my machines pricey
enough to warrant it, so I can?t advocate one way or the other for its use on a classic
computer.
- Mark
10:06 a.m.
On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 8:39 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
What's the going price per gallon of sperm whale
oil?
Quite a bit more than Braycote, I'm sure. And it would be nowhere near as
good. But if I were restoring a $25,000 machine, spending $250 on 10 grams
of Braycote wouldn't seem outrageous. Sure it's more expensive the going
to the Texico station for a can of motor oil, but it's also not going to
eat through the decaying rubber belts within a few years.
I'm very careful with PTFE-enhanced lubricants, such as TriFlow--they
tend, for me, at least, to get gummy.
Braycote isn't a PTFE-enhanced petroleum based lubricant. Those have all
the disadvantages of the base lubricant (which can evaporate or change
chemically), but with added PTFE.
A good petroleum oil should last
decades in this particular application.
Probably. You just shouldn't get it (or its evaporation or decomposition
products) on anything that that might react badly to them or get too warm.
9:48 a.m.
On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 7:45 PM, drlegendre . <drlegendre at gmail.com> wrote:
Forgive my ignorance..
What could possibly justify a cost of $25,000 (US) for a liter of this
Braycote material? Of course, I'm extrapolating - $25/gm, assuming
1000gm/l.
First, I'm not trying to justify it outside of special circumstances. I'm
sure Castrol will tell you that it's difficult to manufacture (they spend a
lot of money figuring out how to make it without using CFCs). It does have
special properties that the less expensive alternatives do not, primarily
it will not dry or gum up unless the building burns down.
Sounds like a government contract rate to me. MoS2 and TFE-rich lubricants
have been readily available for decades - and while they tend to be on the
pricier side, I've seen nothing that touches $25-28/gm.
I think nothing justifies it until you're using it in a machine that is one
of a kind or worth spending that kind of money. Other cheaper MoS2 and
TFE-rich lubricants don't necessarily have the chemical inertness, lifetime
or low vapor pressure. If it still works after 25 years in orbit, it'll
work on your fan
Given that much of the physical damage to my micros and minis is from
incompatibility of the original (i.e. cheap) materials with each other or
degradation with time, if I had the cash to do so I would set a "thou shalt
use no petroleum based lubricants" rule and a "thou shalt use only
fluoropolymer elastomers" rule for replacement of rubber parts.
4:14 a.m.
On Apr 18, 2016, at 10:11 PM, Eric Korpela <korpela
at ssl.berkeley.edu> wrote:
I have been waiting this thread out to see what options people are using.
I like to use a product called SuperLube that I get at the gun store. It's synthetic
and I find it doesn't like to pickup dust like other types of lube. It works great on
an AR-15, marine fish tank light fan bearing, and on disk drive rails. Basically all
extreme environment uses involving carbon, dirt, dust and salt water.
SuperLube is available in a tube and isn't very expensive like whale sperm, I mean
oil.
Cheers,
Corey
corey cohen
u??o? ???o?
On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Chuck Guzis
<cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
I did some research among the antique fan collectors on the web.
Here's what's been recommended, in no particular order:
And if you're looking to preserve an extremely valuable museum piece and
need the ultimate in non-reactive oil or grease, a perfluorinated polyether
(PFPE) "oil" or one with PTFE nanoparticles is virtually guaranteed not to
react with anything you might find a computer. But it is very pricey. $25
a gram for Brayco 815z "oil" and $28 a gram for Braycote 601EF or 602EF
(with MoS2). The solvent you need in order to remove them is $0.25 a
gram. But a gram of this stuff goes a long way. I'd go with 602EF for
fan bearings.
But it does somewhat reduce the need to worry about what happens if the
"oil" gets hot or hits rubber or paper or plastic. It doesn't dry out,
evaporate, or gum up at normal temperatures, since it's teflon and
molysufide microbearings in liquid teflon. I wouldn't buy it to use for a
personal machine unless it was one of a kind, or someone at the lab was
throwing out a tube of out-of-date braycote. (Which hasn't been the case,
I don't have a personal stash).
3168
days inactive
3169
days old
13 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
applecorey＠optonline.net -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
drlegendre＠gmail.com -
elson＠pico-systems.com -
jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu -
korpela＠ssl.berkeley.edu -
mtapley＠swri.edu