6 Aug
2008
6 Aug
'08
10:32 a.m.
/The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO.
Alas, one of my treasured 'boards fell off a table and its space bar
is shattered. Anyone know where I could buy a spare spacebar?
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
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12:27 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 6 Aug 2008 at 15:10, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Even on the AT, the protocol works, but you need a cable adapter.
Peace... Sridhar
The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The
84-key is the one for the
PC. I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC.
PC AT 5170, yes--PC 5150, no--I tried it. Different protocol. 
12:46 p.m.
On Wednesday 06 August 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Chuck Guzis wrote:
Maybe.
I have one or two detachable Model-M cables that have a DIN-5 connector
instead of a MiniDIN-6. Just don't ask me to try and find them. :)
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
On 6 Aug 2008 at 15:10, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Even on the AT, the protocol works, but you need a cable adapter.
Peace... Sridhar The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The
84-key is the one
for the PC. I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the
PC.
PC AT 5170, yes--PC 5150, no--I tried it. Different protocol.
1:03 p.m.
Patrick Finnegan wrote:
On Wednesday 06 August 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
I have a few IBM 101-key keyboards that have detachable cords, and the
DIN-5 connector, but they're not Model Ms.
They have completely different part numbers and stiffer key feel. They
also have older square IBM logos.
Peace... Sridhar
Chuck Guzis wrote:
Maybe.
I have one or two detachable Model-M cables that have a DIN-5 connector
instead of a MiniDIN-6. Just don't ask me to try and find them. :) On 6 Aug 2008 at 15:10, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Even on
the AT, the protocol works, but you need a cable adapter.
Peace... Sridhar The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The
84-key is the one
for the PC. I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the
PC.
PC AT 5170, yes--PC 5150, no--I tried it. Different protocol.
1:34 p.m.
On Wednesday 06 August 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Patrick Finnegan wrote:
But, the cables fit and work with Model M's.
Thus, you don't need a cable adapter. (The keyboards and cables store
better when the cable is detached from the keyboard anyhow.)
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
On Wednesday 06 August 2008, Sridhar Ayengar
wrote:
I have a few IBM 101-key keyboards that have detachable cords, and
the DIN-5 connector, but they're not Model Ms.
They have completely different part numbers and stiffer key feel.
They also have older square IBM logos.
Peace... Sridhar Chuck Guzis wrote:
Maybe.
I have one or two detachable Model-M cables that have a DIN-5
connector instead of a MiniDIN-6. Just don't ask me to try and
find them. :) On 6 Aug 2008 at 15:10, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
> The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one
> for the PC. I don't think the Model M is even compatible with
> the PC.
PC AT 5170, yes--PC 5150, no--I tried it. Different protocol.
Even on the AT, the protocol works, but you need a cable adapter.
Peace... Sridhar
1:49 p.m.
Patrick Finnegan wrote:
I have a few IBM 101-key keyboards that have detachable cords, and
the DIN-5 connector, but they're not Model Ms.
They have completely different part numbers and stiffer key feel.
They also have older square IBM logos.
But, the cables fit and work with Model M's.
Thus, you don't need a cable adapter. (The keyboards and cables store
better when the cable is detached from the keyboard anyhow.)
Point taken.
Peace... Sridhar
>> The
Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one
>> for the PC. I don't think the Model M is even compatible with
>> the PC.
> PC AT 5170, yes--PC 5150, no--I tried it. Different protocol.
Even on the AT, the protocol works, but you need a cable adapter.
Maybe.
I have one or two detachable Model-M cables that have a DIN-5
connector instead of a MiniDIN-6. Just don't ask me to try and
find them. :) 
12:55 p.m.
On 6 Aug 2008 at 15:27, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Even on the AT, the protocol works, but you need a
cable adapter.
I've got a whole mess of them, of both persuasions. They came with
the old IBM "monitor saver" boxes (along with pieces of sticky-sided
velcro). I wish I could find a home for a few of those. Too bad
they'll respond only to keypress and not to mouse movement.
A lot of third-party keyboards either had switches or could auto-
detect and adapt to the difference between PC and PC AT protocols.
But what with +5 being available on the cable, it would be as easy as
fishing with dynamite to program a PIC or AVR as a lump in the cable
to convert betwixt the two.
Cheers
Chuck
8:51 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 6 Aug 2008 at 15:10, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Not necessarily true.
I have several versions of the Model M here that will work on a 5170 or
5150/5160. From my experiments it looks as though many of the Model Ms
built until the early 90s could auto-switch between the two protocols.
Don't tell the 5160 I have at work that it has a Model M on it. (And
it's not the funny Model M without the indicator lights. That one
without the indicator lights (1390120) was specifically made for the XT.)
Mike
The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The
84-key is the one for the
PC. I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC.
PC AT 5170, yes--PC 5150, no--I tried it. Different protocol.
Cheers,
Chuck
9:20 p.m.
On 6 Aug 2008 at 21:51, Michael B. Brutman wrote:
I have several versions of the Model M here that will
work on a 5170 or
5150/5160. From my experiments it looks as though many of the Model Ms
built until the early 90s could auto-switch between the two protocols.
Don't tell the 5160 I have at work that it has a Model M on it. (And
it's not the funny Model M without the indicator lights. That one
without the indicator lights (1390120) was specifically made for the XT.)
Interesting--I've several variations of the M here. I'll have to try
them individually on a 5160 to see which do and which don't work.
Since the first attempt with one didn't, I'd assumed that it would
hold for all models of the model M (submodels?). Apparently not.
Thanks,
Chuck
3:52 p.m.
New subject: Stream of Consciousness Was: Re: IBM Model M keyboard spares
Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Liam Proven wrote:
The stream of consciousness nature of this list is very
enlightening. I
learn things from subject drift that I never expected. Usually the drift
is what I learn from, since the original question is not useful to me.
At the same time, it can be frustrating for the OP because his question
often gets lost in the drift.
/The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO.
The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one for
the PC. I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC.
Peace... Sridhar 
9:01 p.m.
New subject: Stream of Consciousness Was: Re: IBM Model M keyboard spares
On Wednesday 06 August 2008 18:52, Charles H Dickman wrote:
Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
I like it here... :-)
Liam Proven wrote:
The stream of consciousness nature of this list is very enlightening. I
learn things from subject drift that I never expected. Usually the drift
is what I learn from, since the original question is not useful to me. /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO.
The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one for
the PC. I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC.
Peace... Sridhar At the same time, it can be frustrating for the OP
because his question
often gets lost in the drift.
Ah, but the OP did get his question answered, from what I recall.
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
7 Aug
7 Aug
4:31 a.m.
2008/8/6 Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com>:
Liam Proven wrote:
Oh, come on, Sridhar, don't be so anally retentive or obsessive!
I didn't say "the classic IBM model 5250 PC-XT keyboard" or anything
of the kind. I said PC. "PC" is a generic term, which to hundreds of
millions around the world just means a Personal Computer. In fact the
PC to which the model M I am typing on right now is attached to is, as
it happens, an Apple 20" 2GH PowerPC G5 iMac.
--
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Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
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/The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO.
The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one for the PC.
I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC.
Peace... Sridhar
9:03 a.m.
Liam Proven wrote:
2008/8/6 Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at
gmail.com>:
You don't want obsessive? Too bad! 8-)
The 5250 is an IBM minicomputer terminal, not an XT keyboard!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_5250
Peace... Sridhar
Liam Proven wrote:
Oh, come on, Sridhar, don't be so anally retentive or obsessive!
I didn't say "the classic IBM model 5250 PC-XT keyboard" or anything
/The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO.
The Model
M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one for the PC.
I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC.
8 Aug
8 Aug
10:58 a.m.
2008/8/7 Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com>:
Liam Proven wrote:
Ah. Now that *was* my bad. Mea culpa. I should have known that.
--
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Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
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2008/8/6 Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com>:
You don't want obsessive? Too bad! 8-)
The 5250 is an IBM minicomputer terminal, not an XT keyboard!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_5250
Liam Proven wrote:
Oh, come on, Sridhar, don't be so anally retentive or obsessive!
I didn't say "the classic IBM model 5250 PC-XT keyboard" or anything
/The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO.
The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one for the
PC.
I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC. 
7 Aug
7 Aug
12:45 p.m.
On Thu, 7 Aug 2008, Liam Proven wrote:
2008/8/6 Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at
gmail.com>:
It is easy to parse what you said to be referring to "classic PC".
Would an Apple 20" 2GH PowerPC G5 iMac be considered a "classic PC"?
In THIS mob, "classic PC" means 5150.
Even those who avoid the IBM products would be considered "5150" by those
familiar with police radio codes.
Liam Proven wrote:
Oh, come on, Sridhar, don't be so anally retentive or obsessive!
I didn't say "the classic IBM model 5250 PC-XT keyboard" or anything
of the kind. I said PC. "PC" is a generic term, which to hundreds of
millions around the world just means a Personal Computer. In fact the
PC to which the model M I am typing on right now is attached to is, as
it happens, an Apple 20" 2GH PowerPC G5 iMac.
/The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO.
The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one for the PC.
I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC.
Peace... Sridhar 
9:02 p.m.
On Aug 7, 2008, at 12:45 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Thu, 7 Aug 2008, Liam Proven wrote:
But what surprises me is that nobody has yet pointed out that the 5150
PC keyboard had only 83 keys. It wasn't until the 5170 AT keyboard
that we got 84 keys!
ok
bear
2008/8/6 Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at
gmail.com>:
It is easy to parse what you said to be referring to "classic PC".
Would an Apple 20" 2GH PowerPC G5 iMac be considered a "classic PC"?
In THIS mob, "classic PC" means 5150.
Even those who avoid the IBM products would be considered "5150" by
those
familiar with police radio codes. Liam Proven wrote:
Oh, come on, Sridhar, don't be so anally retentive or obsessive!
I didn't say "the classic IBM model 5250 PC-XT keyboard" or anything
of the kind. I said PC. "PC" is a generic term, which to hundreds of
millions around the world just means a Personal Computer. In fact the
PC to which the model M I am typing on right now is attached to is,
as
it happens, an Apple 20" 2GH PowerPC G5 iMac.
/The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO.
The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one
for the PC.
I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC.
8 Aug
8 Aug
10:55 a.m.
2008/8/7 Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>:
On Thu, 7 Aug 2008, Liam Proven wrote:
Hmmm. I'd have said "the keyboard of the classic PC" if that's what
I'd meant. Only of course a Model M is not the keyboard of the PC-XT,
it's a much later model; a Model M won't work with a PC-XT and a PC-XT
keyboard won't work with anything much newer. And in any case, the
original PC keyboard is not a much loved classic with lots of fan
sites, which the Model M is.
So to be honest I don't think it was an ambiguous statement at all!
2008/8/6 Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at
gmail.com>:
It is easy to parse what you said to be referring to "classic PC". Liam Proven wrote:
Oh, come on, Sridhar, don't be so anally retentive or obsessive!
I didn't say "the classic IBM model 5250 PC-XT keyboard" or anything
of the kind. I said PC. "PC" is a generic term, which to hundreds of
millions around the world just means a Personal Computer. In fact the
PC to which the model M I am typing on right now is attached to is, as
it happens, an Apple 20" 2GH PowerPC G5 iMac.
/The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO.
The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one for the PC.
I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC.
Peace... Sridhar Would an Apple 20" 2GH PowerPC G5 iMac be
considered a "classic PC"?
Eh? That never even entered into it. It's a form of PC, though. I
reckon the original iMac G3 is a classic, though, already.
In THIS mob, "classic PC" means 5150.
But I wasn't talking about any kind of classic PC. The last noun in
the sentence was "keyboard" and that's what the adjective
"classic"
was applied to. The "PC" merely clarified what kind of keyboard.
Even those who avoid the IBM products would be
considered "5150" by those
familiar with police radio codes.
I know nothing about police radio codes and have no interest in them
whatsoever. I suspect that the British police have different ones,
anyway.
I'm not buying this odd implicit argument that it was an unclear or
ambiguous phrase, in case that wasn't obvious. :-)
--
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Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
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3:06 p.m.
>> /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO.
It is
easy to parse what you said to be referring to "classic PC". Only of course a Model M is not the keyboard of the
PC-XT,
it's a much later model; a Model M won't work with a PC-XT and a PC-XT
keyboard won't work with anything much newer. And in any case, the
original PC keyboard is not a much loved classic with lots of fan
sites, which the Model M is.
Which is one more reason that I prefer the original 83 key keyboards.
So to be honest I don't think it was an ambiguous
statement at all!
only to those of us who don't have our language based on the
king.
Even those who
avoid the IBM products would be considered "5150" by those
familiar with police radio codes.
I know nothing about police radio codes and have
no interest in them
whatsoever. I suspect that the British police have different ones,
anyway. I'm not buying this odd implicit argument that it
was an unclear or
ambiguous phrase, in case that wasn't obvious. :-)
only in translation to American "English".
6 Aug
6 Aug
2:24 p.m.
On 6 Aug 2008 at 18:32, Liam Proven wrote:
/The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO.
Alas, one of my treasured 'boards fell off a table and its space bar
is shattered. Anyone know where I could buy a spare spacebar?
I wonder if PCkeyboards.com has one that will work. It could be sent
via post to the UK.
Cheers,
Chuck
2:29 p.m.
/The/ classic
PC keyboard, IMHO.
Alas, one of my treasured 'boards fell off a table and its space bar
is shattered. Anyone know where I could buy a spare spacebar?
I wonder if PCkeyboards.com has one that will work. It could be sent
via post to the UK.
7 Aug
7 Aug
4:33 a.m.
2008/8/6 Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com>:
http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/categories.main/parentcat/10191
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
Hey, Gene, how's it going? You may recognise me from the FreeGEM list.
That's a good thought - I shall mail them and ask. Thanks!
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
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Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508
/The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO.
Alas, one of my treasured 'boards fell off a table and its space bar
is shattered. Anyone know where I could buy a spare spacebar?
I wonder if PCkeyboards.com has one that will work. It could be sent
via post to the UK.
7:02 a.m.
Hey, Gene, how's it going? You may recognise me from the FreeGEM list.
That's a good thought - I shall mail them and ask. Thanks!
Things are going well. $30 is stupid for shipping - you'd almost be
better off finding a donor at a local recycler.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
6 Aug
6 Aug
2:40 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 6 Aug 2008 at 18:32, Liam Proven wrote:
They do factory refurbishment, and will be happy to sell you a new one.
Peace... Sridhar
/The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO.
Alas, one of my treasured 'boards fell off a table and its space bar
is shattered. Anyone know where I could buy a spare spacebar?
I wonder if PCkeyboards.com has one that will work. It could be sent
via post to the UK. 
2:27 p.m.
On Wed, 6 Aug 2008, Liam Proven wrote:
/The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO.
Alas, one of my treasured 'boards fell off a table and its space bar
is shattered. Anyone know where I could buy a spare spacebar?
Right here:
http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/categories.main/parentcat/10191
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
7 Aug
7 Aug
4:32 a.m.
2008/8/6 David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu>:
On Wed, 6 Aug 2008, Liam Proven wrote:
Thanks! Very helpful! The snag is, [a] while they only want a very
reasonable $2 for a spacebar, they want $30 for postage, and [b], they
have a minimum order of $10 and every keyboard they list seems to be
out of stock.
I've mailed him... We shall see.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com
Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508
/The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO.
Alas, one of my treasured 'boards fell off a table and its space bar
is shattered. Anyone know where I could buy a spare spacebar?
Right here:
http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/categories.main/parentcat/10191
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
9:10 a.m.
On Thu, 7 Aug 2008, Liam Proven wrote:
2008/8/6 David Griffith <dgriffi at
cs.csubak.edu>:
It's similarly expensive to ship in the US. I've emailed Unicomp to see
if they have parts.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
On Wed, 6 Aug 2008, Liam Proven wrote:
Thanks! Very helpful! The snag is, [a] while they only want a very
reasonable $2 for a spacebar, they want $30 for postage, and [b], they
have a minimum order of $10 and every keyboard they list seems to be
out of stock.
I've mailed him... We shall see. /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO.
Alas, one of my treasured 'boards fell off a table and its space bar
is shattered. Anyone know where I could buy a spare spacebar?
Right here:
http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/categories.main/parentcat/10191
5756
days inactive
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27 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
bear＠typewritten.org -
cclist＠sydex.com -
chd_1＠nktelco.net -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
lproven＠gmail.com -
mbbrutman-cctalk＠brutman.com -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
ploopster＠gmail.com -
rtellason＠verizon.net