20 May
2007
20 May
'07
12:37 a.m.
All,
I have the chance to get an inexpensive "HP DLT40" drive or two...
from my googling, it seems that these drives can
read/write DLT III
(10GB), DLT IIIxt (15GB) or DLT IV (20GB) tapes. Are DLT IV
tapes
(20GB uncompressed) worth the effort of tracking down and shipping?
We pitched out several hundred new-in-box DLT IV tapes from South Pole
over six months ago, partially because we hadn't unwrapped one in over
4 years (we had moved up to SDLT @ 110GB each, some time prior to 1
Jan 2003). Old though they are, I'd consider an inexpensive SDLT
drive and a stack of tapes to be a somewhat useful density to use for
backup on any system I have lying around. What's not as clear,
though, is if tapes that hold less than 20% of that are worth more
than the cost of shipping. At the moment, I can get a couple of
drives for essentially free (under $5, and, no, not at Dayton). What
concerns me is the expense of the tapes, and more from a shipping
standpoint than an actual per-tape cost. If we were throwing out
these tapes last year, I can't imagine that I can't find someone else
doing the same this year - it's just a matter of how much it costs to
receive them.
Given the things I'd like to back up (laptop, main Solaris file
server), I'd want to be able to rotate tapes in a sensible scheme so
as not to write to the tapes too often, but I have enough stuff to
cover that one 20GB tape per month just isn't enough; I'd need several
tapes per month at that density. Over the course of a year, I'd
probably need tens of tapes, but perhaps with a higher density (SDLT,
say), I could get away with a dozen or so tapes per year, but the
drive and tapes wouldn't be as close to free as DLT IV (I've seen eBay
prices on SDLT drives in the $20-$50 range). We stopped using SDLT at
Pole last year (2006 data was written to SDLT and Ultrium tapes), so,
again, I can see that the modern world isn't going to be as interested
in them as some of the newer, multi-hundred-GB-per-tape schemes.
I guess another way to phrase this might be, does anyone on the list
know of a source of extremely inexpensive piles of DLT IV or SDLT
tapes - either density media quickly adds up to more than the present
cost of drives, so in the end, it's the weight of the tapes that's the
limiting factor.
Thanks,
-ethan
20 May
20 May
1:29 a.m.
On May 20, 2007, at 12:37 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
I have the chance to get an inexpensive "HP
DLT40" drive or two...
from my googling, it seems that these drives can read/write DLT III
(10GB), DLT IIIxt (15GB) or DLT IV (20GB) tapes. Are DLT IV tapes
(20GB uncompressed) worth the effort of tracking down and shipping?
We pitched out several hundred new-in-box DLT IV tapes from South Pole
over six months ago,
!!
I just spent a big pile of money populating a 110-slot juke with
DLT-IV media.
Though I suppose the thought of shipping them from the south pole
will quell the vomit rising in my innards.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
2:22 a.m.
On 5/20/07, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On May 20, 2007, at 12:37 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Wow! Cool box. I used to run an SDLT jukebox with somewhere around
30 tapes, and I missed the chance to scavenge a 7-tape DLT III box,
but 110 tapes is a *lot* of media.
Can I ask roughly how much you paid per tape?
Are DLT IV tapes
(20GB uncompressed) worth the effort of tracking down and shipping?
We pitched out several hundred new-in-box DLT IV tapes from South Pole
over six months ago,
!!
I just spent a big pile of money populating a 110-slot juke with
DLT-IV media. Though I suppose the thought of shipping them from
the south pole
will quell the vomit rising in my innards.
Something else that might help is that a) they were pitched out after
I left, and b) there was no way to know if they had or had not been
subjected to temperatures outside of their comfort zone on their way
down or while being moved from one part of the station to another.
One could, I guess, employ random sampling to see if there were any
gross problems with writes/reads, but given the journey they took,
there's just no way to know if they were environmentally stressed or
not.
-ethan
2:41 a.m.
On May 20, 2007, at 2:22 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Wow! Cool box. I used to run an SDLT jukebox with somewhere around
30 tapes, and I missed the chance to scavenge a 7-tape DLT III box,
but 110 tapes is a *lot* of media.
Yes. This was at work; our changer has DLT-7000 drives
installed. My changer at home holds 40 DLT-IVs (DLT-8000 drives) and
I have much more data to back up there than we do at work...go
figure. :-(
Ahh ok. I will just keep saying "frozen, frozen, frozen" over and
over until I feel better. =)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
(20GB uncompressed) worth the effort of tracking down
and shipping?
We pitched out several hundred new-in-box DLT IV tapes from
South Pole
over six months ago,
!!
I just spent a big pile of money populating a 110-slot juke with
DLT-IV media. Can I ask roughly how much you paid per tape?
I think they were about eight bucks per tape.
Though I
suppose the thought of shipping them from the south pole
will quell the vomit rising in my innards.
Something else that might help is that a) they were pitched out after
I left, and b) there was no way to know if they had or had not been
subjected to temperatures outside of their comfort zone on their way
down or while being moved from one part of the station to another.
One could, I guess, employ random sampling to see if there were any
gross problems with writes/reads, but given the journey they took,
there's just no way to know if they were environmentally stressed or
not. 
12:59 p.m.
On Sunday 20 May 2007 02:41, Dave McGuire wrote:
On May 20, 2007, at 2:22 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>> > (20GB uncompressed) worth the effort of tracking down and
>> > shipping? We pitched out several hundred new-in-box DLT IV tapes
>> > from
>>
>> South Pole
>>
>> > over six months ago,
>>
>> !!
>>
>> I just spent a big pile of money populating a 110-slot juke with
>> DLT-IV media.
>
> Wow! Cool box. I used to run an SDLT jukebox with somewhere around
> 30 tapes, and I missed the chance to scavenge a 7-tape DLT III box,
> but 110 tapes is a *lot* of media.
Ehh, it's not as nice as my 574-slot STK library that I got last
summer. :)
BTW, I've got about a thousand surplus DLT-IV tapes that I need to start
getting rid of soon (they're tapes that used to be in our HSM system at
work). They're all used, but degaussed, and were working just fine
while we were using them up until the end of December.
If anyone needs some tapes, let me know... I'm in West Lafayette, IN.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
4:32 p.m.
Hmmm. I'm still using DLT-IV tapes for backup. How would I go about getting
my hands on, say, 20 or 40 (price dependent) of them??
At 12:59 PM 5/20/2007 -0400, you wrote:
On Sunday 20 May 2007 02:41, Dave McGuire wrote:
-----
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WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531
On May 20, 2007, at 2:22 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>> > (20GB uncompressed) worth the effort of tracking down and
>> > shipping? We pitched out several hundred new-in-box DLT IV tapes
>> > from
>>
>> South Pole
>>
>> > over six months ago,
>>
>> !!
>>
>> I just spent a big pile of money populating a 110-slot juke with
>> DLT-IV media.
>
> Wow! Cool box. I used to run an SDLT jukebox with somewhere around
> 30 tapes, and I missed the chance to scavenge a 7-tape DLT III box,
> but 110 tapes is a *lot* of media.
Ehh, it's not as nice as my 574-slot STK library that I got last
summer. :)
BTW, I've got about a thousand surplus DLT-IV tapes that I need to start
getting rid of soon (they're tapes that used to be in our HSM system at
work). They're all used, but degaussed, and were working just fine
while we were using them up until the end of December.
If anyone needs some tapes, let me know... I'm in West Lafayette, IN.
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
21 May
21 May
10:04 p.m.
On May 20, 2007, at 12:59 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
Your contacts for cool stuff are just too good, man.
>> I
just spent a big pile of money populating a 110-slot juke with
>> DLT-IV media.
>
> Wow! Cool box. I used to run an SDLT jukebox with somewhere around
> 30 tapes, and I missed the chance to scavenge a 7-tape DLT III box,
> but 110 tapes is a *lot* of media.
Ehh, it's not as nice as my 574-slot STK library that I got last
summer. :) BTW, I've got about a thousand surplus DLT-IV
tapes that I need to
start
getting rid of soon (they're tapes that used to be in our HSM
system at
work). They're all used, but degaussed, and were working just fine
while we were using them up until the end of December.
If anyone needs some tapes, let me know... I'm in West Lafayette, IN.
Any idea what you might want to get for them?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
11:12 p.m.
On Monday 21 May 2007 22:04, Dave McGuire wrote:
If anyone is interested, contact me off-list...
Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
On May 20, 2007, at 12:59 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
Your contacts for cool stuff are just too good, man.
I paid plenty of money for it (~$400).
>>
I just spent a big pile of money populating a 110-slot juke
>> with DLT-IV media.
>
> Wow! Cool box. I used to run an SDLT jukebox with somewhere
> around 30 tapes, and I missed the chance to scavenge a 7-tape DLT
> III box, but 110 tapes is a *lot* of media.
Ehh, it's not as nice as my 574-slot STK library that I got last
summer. :) BTW, I've
got about a thousand surplus DLT-IV tapes that I need to
start
getting rid of soon (they're tapes that used to be in our HSM
system at
work). They're all used, but degaussed, and were working just fine
while we were using them up until the end of December.
If anyone needs some tapes, let me know... I'm in West Lafayette,
IN.
Any idea what you might want to get for them? 
20 May
20 May
3:55 a.m.
"Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
I guess another way to phrase this might be, does
anyone on the list
know of a source of extremely inexpensive piles of DLT IV or SDLT
tapes - either density media quickly adds up to more than the present
cost of drives, so in the end, it's the weight of the tapes that's the
limiting factor.
For data backup, it's a false economy to compare the cost of the
backup media to the cost of other backup media or to the cost
of gas or to the cost of tea in China.
The true comparison is the cost of making a backup vs the cost of
not making a backup.
For more than a decade folks have argued about the cost of backup media
vs another backup media, and ignored the cost vs value of doing
the backup at all. The cost of the media has been in the noise
compared to the effort involved for a long long time, at least for
those of us in the West. (Maybe things are different in former
Eastern Block countries or subsaharan Africa, not that living at
the South Pole might distort any of our senses of economics!)
For almost any application, the convenience vs inconvenience of the
backup is going to drive any consideration more than the cost of the
media. DLT does have a very good advantage over others in convenience
in that there is a good (although not perfect) history of drives
being backwards compatible over ridiculously long time spans.
There are OTHER factors - I made backups onto 9-tracks into the late
90's mostly as a justification for keeping dozens of drives around, not
so much because it was the best or right way! If you want to pick
up the tapes as a way of justifying keeping the DLT drive around,
that's great: well into the late 90's I was still stockpiling vast
quantities of Blackwatch tape (I mean, thousands of tape in a haul)
just as part of my spinning tape reel obsession :-). But once the other
non-economic factors come in, you have to acknowledge that you are
no longer making decisions based solely on some hypothetical economic
factor and abandon the economic comparisons.
Tim.
19 May
19 May
10:52 p.m.
Tim Shoppa wrote:
For data backup, it's a false economy to compare
the cost of the
backup media to the cost of other backup media or to the cost
of gas or to the cost of tea in China.
Well not that much money for tea in china
... So you read the tea
leaves to see what your back up data was?
The true comparison is the cost of making a backup vs
the cost of
not making a backup.
The real cost of a backup is the restore ... most of the crummy DOS
backups I have made were weak on getting your data back.
20 May
20 May
11:38 p.m.
Tim Shoppa wrote:
"Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at
gmail.com> wrote:
Jerome Fine replies:
One other factor, which to a major extent may also be
considered convenience, is the time to perform the backup
as well as the recovery. While I admit to knowing far
too little about the Windows (jeck) system I use, there
unfortunately seems to be little choice unless I want
to spend the next year or two getting up to speed with
a system I dislike in the first place OR switching too
something more reasonable, but also having to completely
set up and support it myself. But I have found that
using Ghost (with a FAT32 file structure - this allows
the backup to also produce a separate ascii list of all
12,000 files) to perform backups solves most of my problems.
Since I have only 2 GB of files on my C: drive, the backup
takes only 5 minutes. In addition, the restore takes only
3 minutes and I frequently make use of this minimal restore
time to use applications that (from my point of view) mess
up the file system - after which I simply do a restore.
One additional note. Since the backup image is compressed to
less than 1 GB and drive capacity of 100 GB is so inexpensive,
I don't even bother with tape, but instead use 2 extra hard
drives, each if which has a copy of the backup image. And
while I have only had to make use of having BOTH backup drives
about once a year over the past 5 years (most recently when both
backup drives failed within about 4 months of each other),
the extra redundancy of having 2 backup drives has proved to
be worth the cost of the extra drive hundreds of times over.
The other aspect that I consider worth mentioning is that I
also save a permanent copy of the backup image file from the
end of each month on a DVD after which I erase all the previous
months of backups from the backup hard drives. While I realize
that my solution will not apply to systems which have more than
about 10 GB of files to backup, with my situation it works very
well indeed.
Note that at one time when I was using hard drives of only
600 MB, I did use a DLT tape of a limited capacity (only
256 MB which required 3 tapes for a complete backup). Since
I also verified each tape against the original data, those
backups took the better part of a whole day. Now with Ghost
and a hard drive, the initial backup takes 5 minutes and
making that second copy takes an additional minute. I call
that convenience.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
--
If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail
address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk
e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be
obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the
'at' with the four digits of the current year.
I guess another way to phrase this might be, does
anyone on the list
know of a source of extremely inexpensive piles of DLT IV or SDLT
tapes - either density media quickly adds up to more than the present
cost of drives, so in the end, it's the weight of the tapes that's the
limiting factor.
For data backup, it's a false economy to compare the cost of the
backup media to the cost of other backup media or to the cost
of gas or to the cost of tea in China.
The true comparison is the cost of making a backup vs the cost of
not making a backup.
For more than a decade folks have argued about the cost of backup media
vs another backup media, and ignored the cost vs value of doing
the backup at all. The cost of the media has been in the noise
compared to the effort involved for a long long time, at least for
those of us in the West. (Maybe things are different in former
Eastern Block countries or subsaharan Africa, not that living at
the South Pole might distort any of our senses of economics!)
For almost any application, the convenience vs inconvenience of the
backup is going to drive any consideration more than the cost of the
media. DLT does have a very good advantage over others in convenience
in that there is a good (although not perfect) history of drives
being backwards compatible over ridiculously long time spans.
There are OTHER factors - I made backups onto 9-tracks into the late
90's mostly as a justification for keeping dozens of drives around, not
so much because it was the best or right way! If you want to pick
up the tapes as a way of justifying keeping the DLT drive around,
that's great: well into the late 90's I was still stockpiling vast
quantities of Blackwatch tape (I mean, thousands of tape in a haul)
just as part of my spinning tape reel obsession :-). But once the other
non-economic factors come in, you have to acknowledge that you are
no longer making decisions based solely on some hypothetical economic
factor and abandon the economic comparisons.
21 May
21 May
2:46 a.m.
For data backup, it's a false economy to compare
the cost of the
backup media to the cost of other backup media or to the cost of gas
or to the cost of tea in China.
The true comparison is the cost of making a backup vs
the cost of not
making a backup.
Not really - if you've decided to do backups (or actually even if
you're only considering doing backups), there is nothing wrong with
trying to find the cheapest way consistent with your particular
environment's threat model and risk tolerance levels.
And *that* is where comparing the cost of backup media to the cost of
other backup media comes in. (For example, it's entirely plausible a
site would decide "if we can get media for under $0.01/GB then it's
worth backing this up, otherwise forget it, we'll just recreate it if
we need to".)
For more than a decade folks have argued about the
cost of backup
media vs another backup media, and ignored the cost vs value of doing
the backup at all.
Yes, this is..suboptimal. But just because you shouldn't ignore thing
#1 doesn't mean that ignoring thing #2 instead is right.
The cost of the media has been in the noise compared
to the effort
involved for a long long time, at least for those of us in the West.
I disagree.
At work, for example, we write (some of our) backups to real tapes.
I'm the person who usually changes the tapes. I just did a
back-of-the-envelope estimate, and I figure it costs us about a dollar
each time I have to change a tape.
So, positing the existence of tapes small enough that a run took two
(it currently takes one, and I don't know whether smaller tapes exist
for that drive), a dollar or two per tape is the kind of price
differential that could tip the scales whether it's cheaper to go with
two small tapes or one big one. Not down in the noise at all.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
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20 May
20 May
9:20 p.m.
DLT IV tapes aren't that hard to come by if you want
to buy them, but if you don't want to fork over cash,
they're scarce. I'm hurting for them too. We use DLT
IV tapes at work, and when we needed more, we had to
buy them - we bought a pack of 20 refurbished tapes
for like $160 + shipping. Cheapest price we could find
anywhere.
-Ian
6267
days inactive
6269
days old
12 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
ian_primus＠yahoo.com -
jhfinedp3k＠compsys.to -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
mouse＠Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
shoppa_classiccmp＠trailing-edge.com -
tpeters＠mixcom.com