22 Nov
2021
22 Nov
'21
11:50 a.m.
On 2021-11-21 9:45 a.m., Adam Thornton via cctalk
wrote:
Yeah, I had a long, hard think about this
while the Caldor Fire was
looking like it was about to come knocking on my doorstep this fall
and I was trying to prep myself for a short-notice evacuation and
decide what I could and couldn't take (read: leave stowed in the trunk
of the car for the next couple weeks.) Ultimately, while I'd *like*
what I have and enjoy to pass on to someone else once I get busy
decomposing, in the long run it's all dust, so I'm not gonna worry
myself too much over it.
On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk
wrote:
And what happens when you wake up one morning to find archive.org is
gone, too?
Fundamentally, eventually we're all going to be indistinguishable
mass-components inside the supermassive black hole that used to be the
Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies anyway.
Smoke 'em while you got 'em. 
22 Nov
22 Nov
2 p.m.
and yet, after it's over and there's *nothing* left from 30+ years of
collecting, there are occasional reflections on what you left behind...
just saying...
Steve
On 11/22/2021 11:50 AM, John Ames via cctalk wrote:
On 2021-11-21
9:45 a.m., Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote:
Yeah, I had a long, hard think about this
while the Caldor Fire was
looking like it was about to come knocking on my doorstep this fall
and I was trying to prep myself for a short-notice evacuation and
decide what I could and couldn't take (read: leave stowed in the trunk
of the car for the next couple weeks.) Ultimately, while I'd *like*
what I have and enjoy to pass on to someone else once I get busy
decomposing, in the long run it's all dust, so I'm not gonna worry
myself too much over it. On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk
wrote:
And what happens when you wake up one morning to find archive.org is
gone, too?
Fundamentally, eventually we're all going to be indistinguishable
mass-components inside the supermassive black hole that used to be the
Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies anyway.
Smoke 'em while you got 'em. 
2:59 p.m.
In my case it's stuff that *I* didn't save and just tossed it because
"Why would I ever want this anymore?".? I *really* regret tossing all of
the source for stuff I wrote while I was at IBM. It was after all IBM's
property (since I wrote it all as an IBM employee) and I doubt any of it
survives in any form anywhere, but I still wish I had some of it.? :-(
After it's all said and done, one has to wonder if we really leave any
lasting impact.? :-/
TTFN - Guy
On 11/22/21 2:00 PM, s shumaker via cctalk wrote:
and yet, after it's over and there's *nothing*
left from 30+ years of
collecting, there are occasional reflections on what you left behind...
just saying...
Steve
On 11/22/2021 11:50 AM, John Ames via cctalk wrote:
--
TTFN - Guy
On
2021-11-21 9:45 a.m., Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote:
Yeah, I had a long, hard think about this
while the Caldor Fire was
looking like it was about to come knocking on my doorstep this fall
and I was trying to prep myself for a short-notice evacuation and
decide what I could and couldn't take (read: leave stowed in the trunk
of the car for the next couple weeks.) Ultimately, while I'd *like*
what I have and enjoy to pass on to someone else once I get busy
decomposing, in the long run it's all dust, so I'm not gonna worry
myself too much over it. On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk
wrote:
And what happens when you wake? up one morning to find archive.org is
gone, too?
Fundamentally, eventually we're all going to be indistinguishable
mass-components inside the supermassive black hole that used to be the
Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies anyway.
Smoke 'em while you got 'em. 
5:40 p.m.
On 11/22/21 2:59 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:
In my case it's stuff that *I* didn't save and
just tossed it because
"Why would I ever want this anymore?".? I *really* regret tossing all of
the source for stuff I wrote while I was at IBM. It was after all IBM's
property (since I wrote it all as an IBM employee) and I doubt any of it
survives in any form anywhere, but I still wish I had some of it.? :-(
Think of all of the software and documentation that may still
reside/resided in government hands. I suspect that much of it was
intentionally and thoroughly destroyed.
I can think of one project that had 1500 GSA programmers working. I
doubt that a single line of that survives.
--Chuck
23 Nov
23 Nov
9:51 a.m.
On 11/22/21 8:40 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 11/22/21 2:59 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:
You would probably be wrong, it likely was archived before
it stopped being used. But that won't do you any good as
even if you could submit a FOIA request for it the cost of
recovering it would be prohibitive and they would not have
to honor it. :-)
bill
In my case it's stuff that *I* didn't
save and just tossed it because
"Why would I ever want this anymore?".? I *really* regret tossing all of
the source for stuff I wrote while I was at IBM. It was after all IBM's
property (since I wrote it all as an IBM employee) and I doubt any of it
survives in any form anywhere, but I still wish I had some of it.? :-(
Think of all of the software and documentation that may still
reside/resided in government hands. I suspect that much of it was
intentionally and thoroughly destroyed.
I can think of one project that had 1500 GSA programmers working. I
doubt that a single line of that survives.
10:21 a.m.
On 11/23/21 9:51 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
doubt that a single line of that survives.
You would probably be wrong, it likely was archived before
it stopped being used.? But that won't do you any good as
even if you could submit a FOIA request for it the cost of
recovering it would be prohibitive and they would not have
to honor it.? :-)
I don't think so--the project I had in mind was a military project that
sunset some time in the late 1970s. Defense projects generally had a
fixed budget that did not include archiving after the project had
completed. That even extended to defense contractors. I recall a job
I did for LMSC where one person still had some 8" Future Data floppies
with software for a particular product. The set wasn't complete--but
there were no official company archives of the stuff. It wasn't just
the US Defense industry either; I've done similar stuff for, say, the
Israelis.
I think that, in the military mind, software belonging to a discontinued
classified project was deemed a potential security risk and destroyed.
A lot of my work involved retrieving stuff that had been put on tapes
years ago and just stashed in a warehouse with no description, other
than a tape inventory number. Someone got the job of cleaning out the
warehouse and thought the tapes might be worth looking at.
Just think of all of the stuff that hits the landfill from old timers
who have passed. The inheritors don't know what to do with the stuff
other than dispose of it.
We're very bad at hanging onto old information.
--Chuck
11:17 a.m.
On Nov 23, 2021, at 1:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
...
Just think of all of the stuff that hits the landfill from old timers
who have passed. The inheritors don't know what to do with the stuff
other than dispose of it.
Or they might not know how to find devices that can read the stuff. I have some examples:
a couple of DECtapes, and an RA60 pack. I know how to find someone who can read them, but
none of my family would.
The same, only more so, for 7 track tapes. Or CDC 626 14-track tapes. And what about 10
track tapes? There's someone in England working on reading some of those for an old
English computer; those tools may or may not be suitable for reading EL-X1 tapes.
Similarly, there was the recent heroics to recover Univac 1 tapes (if I remember right).
paul
11:22 a.m.
On 11/23/21 12:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 11/23/21 9:51 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
wrote:
doubt that a single line of that survives.
Yup, A guy I know was in the aerospace fabrication business
(now retired).? A few years back, he showed us some horribly
degraded mylar plots of some military aircraft drawings that
were all the manufacturer could come up with.? The Air Force
was doing a major rebuild of those airframes, and needed
some skins shaped to replace the tailplane airfoils.? He
knew where possibly the only airfoil bender was, and quickly
bought it from a scrap dealer. They then had to scrutinize
the plots and try to extract the original dimensions so they
could bend the skin to the required shape.? Lucky the
original manufacturer at least had some form of document
still available, or they would have had to do some 3D
scanning of an existing part that was not too far gone.
Jon
You would probably be wrong, it likely was
archived before
it stopped being used.? But that won't do you any good as
even if you could submit a FOIA request for it the cost of
recovering it would be prohibitive and they would not have
to honor it.? :-)
I don't think so--the project I had in mind was a military
project that
sunset some time in the late 1970s.
11:31 a.m.
On Nov 23, 2021, at 2:22 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 11/23/21 12:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
Along those same lines, the designs for the Saturn rocket were supposedly scrapped (some
say for political reasons). A few years ago someone did a detailed 3D scan of the F1
engine (first stage engine) and used that to develop a compatible but more modern
successor (called F2 I think).
paul
On 11/23/21 9:51 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
wrote:
doubt that a single line of that survives.
Yup, A guy I know was in the aerospace fabrication business (now retired). A few years
back, he showed us some horribly degraded mylar plots of some military aircraft drawings
that were all the manufacturer could come up with. The Air Force was doing a major
rebuild of those airframes, and needed some skins shaped to replace the tailplane
airfoils. He knew where possibly the only airfoil bender was, and quickly bought it from
a scrap dealer. They then had to scrutinize the plots and try to extract the original
dimensions so they could bend the skin to the required shape. Lucky the original
manufacturer at least had some form of document still available, or they would have had to
do some 3D scanning of an existing part that was not too far gone. You would probably be wrong, it likely was
archived before
it stopped being used. But that won't do you any good as
even if you could submit a FOIA request for it the cost of
recovering it would be prohibitive and they would not have
to honor it. :-)
I don't think so--the project I had in mind was a military
project that
sunset some time in the late 1970s.
6:06 p.m.
In fact, it's standard language in most DOD contracts that ALL materials
related to a contract must be destroyed at contract closure unless the
contractor receives specific permission from the gov't? to retain it -
usually for some specific reason such as a projected follow-on
contract.? When major contracts close, there is often a great cleaning
out of file cabinet and storage areas, done as quickly as possible
because it's all on company time rather than paid by uncle.
Steve
On 11/23/2021 10:21 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 11/23/21 9:51 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
wrote:
doubt that a single line of that survives.
You would probably be wrong, it likely was
archived before
it stopped being used.? But that won't do you any good as
even if you could submit a FOIA request for it the cost of
recovering it would be prohibitive and they would not have
to honor it.? :-)
I don't think so--the project I had in mind was a military
project that
sunset some time in the late 1970s. Defense projects generally had a
fixed budget that did not include archiving after the project had
completed. That even extended to defense contractors. I recall a job
I did for LMSC where one person still had some 8" Future Data floppies
with software for a particular product. The set wasn't complete--but
there were no official company archives of the stuff. It wasn't just
the US Defense industry either; I've done similar stuff for, say, the
Israelis.
I think that, in the military mind, software belonging to a discontinued
classified project was deemed a potential security risk and destroyed.
A lot of my work involved retrieving stuff that had been put on tapes
years ago and just stashed in a warehouse with no description, other
than a tape inventory number. Someone got the job of cleaning out the
warehouse and thought the tapes might be worth looking at.
Just think of all of the stuff that hits the landfill from old timers
who have passed. The inheritors don't know what to do with the stuff
other than dispose of it.
We're very bad at hanging onto old information.
--Chuck
24 Nov
24 Nov
6:10 a.m.
tis 2021-11-23 klockan 18:06 -0800 skrev s shumaker via cctalk:
In fact, it's standard language in most DOD
contracts that ALL
materials
related to a contract must be destroyed at contract closure unless
the
contractor receives specific permission from the gov't? to retain it
-
usually for some specific reason such as a projected follow-on
contract.? When major contracts close, there is often a great
cleaning
out of file cabinet and storage areas, done as quickly as possible
because it's all on company time rather than paid by uncle.
Steve
Hmmm, good for the company employees/managers and the DoE.
If not, FBI could have had better material from the examinations of
Rocky Flats 'cleanup operations' ....
who said it was ok burning plutonium infested material ?
And other misbehaviours : ie tri plumes in different parts of the US.
6:42 a.m.
I can speak for state government but not fed (this was 20 years ago). It
was an annoying buzz kill that we had to destroy old equipment, and deface
documentation and software so it would be unusable from dumpster divers.
Some pallets of hardware would get "recycled" by department of corrections
(prisoners) but there wasn't any thought of archiving. Especially once
bills came out to enable requesting of data. That resulted in policies to
purge data older than x years and email after 1.
On Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 8:11 AM Stefan Skoglund via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
tis 2021-11-23 klockan 18:06 -0800 skrev s shumaker
via cctalk:
In fact, it's standard language in most DOD
contracts that ALL
materials
related to a contract must be destroyed at contract closure unless
the
contractor receives specific permission from the gov't to retain it
-
usually for some specific reason such as a projected follow-on
contract. When major contracts close, there is often a great
cleaning
out of file cabinet and storage areas, done as quickly as possible
because it's all on company time rather than paid by uncle.
Steve
Hmmm, good for the company employees/managers and the DoE.
If not, FBI could have had better material from the examinations of
Rocky Flats 'cleanup operations' ....
who said it was ok burning plutonium infested material ?
And other misbehaviours : ie tri plumes in different parts of the US.
8:18 a.m.
On 11/24/21 6:42 AM, John Herron via cctalk wrote:
I can speak for state government but not fed (this was
20 years ago). It
was an annoying buzz kill that we had to destroy old equipment, and deface
documentation and software so it would be unusable from dumpster divers.
Some pallets of hardware would get "recycled" by department of corrections
(prisoners) but there wasn't any thought of archiving. Especially once
bills came out to enable requesting of data. That resulted in policies to
purge data older than x years and email after 1.
Sometimes it's corporate policy.
Back in the 1970s, some institution (college?) picked up all sorts of
CDC 6000-series bits and pieces from surplus dealers and assembled their
own working machine. They then called on CDC for servicing the beast.
Bill Norris reportedly went through the roof. The directive came from
on high that any CDC-owned equipment taken out of services was to be
rendered into an unusable, unsalvageable state before disposal. I
witnessed CEs taking hammers to disk drives and mainframes, bolt
cutters, etc. I used to have a Bryant disk platter that I smuggled out
of the facility with the intention of turning into a side table, but it
was lost in a house move. I've just got a few cordwood modules, a head
from an 808 drive and a heatsink from a STAR-1B.
I don't know what corporate policy was with company-owned software, but
it could well have been similar.
--Chuck
10:51 a.m.
On Nov 24, 2021, at 11:18 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 11/24/21 6:42 AM, John Herron via cctalk wrote:
Could be. The government case sounds more like an attempt to render the public records
laws ineffective by destroying records before they can be requisitioned.
My corporate experience suggests that the loss of software materials is most likely just
lack of interest, or lack of an explicit archiving policy.
Consider DEC: the software projects I worked on had their internal source code storage,
and backups of same. At some point they added some flavor of source control machinery,
once those became available and popular. But while customer kits (binary kits) were sent
to the Software Distribution Center for multiplication and distribution, I never saw any
indication that the corresponding source code state was captured and saved, let alone
archived in some central archive. So, for example, while the RSTS team had the RSTS
sources, they didn't exist (in any planned form) elsewhere that I know of, nor did a
full record of older releases exist anywhere.
And when projects are closed down, their resources would tend to just disappear.
paul
I can speak for state government but not fed
(this was 20 years ago). It
was an annoying buzz kill that we had to destroy old equipment, and deface
documentation and software so it would be unusable from dumpster divers.
Some pallets of hardware would get "recycled" by department of corrections
(prisoners) but there wasn't any thought of archiving. Especially once
bills came out to enable requesting of data. That resulted in policies to
purge data older than x years and email after 1.
Sometimes it's corporate policy.
...
I don't know what corporate policy was with company-owned software, but
it could well have been similar. 
2:52 p.m.
There is at least one major semiconductor company that has (had?) an
internal group tasked with recovering (HW designs/software/firmware) IP off
of "obsolete" media - reel tape, paper tape, floppy discs, other, and
preserving for internal use. Was a substantial effort, meaning dedicated
people, $$$, and R&D resources. There were many motivations for this
recovery work, One was use of older, but still technically viable,
processor IP that could be migrated to newer process nodes.
I worked on an unrelated project where we actually used an "older archived"
processor design, updated to contemporary node technology, taped out, and
released a product. Initially for internal customers. Another team took and
released a processor core product externally. A very cool project, probably
one of the most interesting in my career.
I did make attempts to cross-pollinate this internal corporate group with
CHM, and they were very interested in talking with CHM. But, by then CHM
had fully morphed into a social club for the glitterati and elite of
Silicon Valley, and was no longer interested in restoration and
preservation heavy lifting. Too bad, they were geographically close and
there could have been some very fruitful collaboration for both parties. In
retrospect I suspect LCM would have been a more fruitful introduction. Oh
well, coulda, soulda, woulda... ;-)
Lee Courtney
On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 10:51 AM Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Could be. The government case sounds more like an attempt to render the
public records laws ineffective by destroying records before they can be
requisitioned.
My corporate experience suggests that the loss of software materials is
most likely just lack of interest, or lack of an explicit archiving policy.
Consider DEC: the software projects I worked on had their internal source
code storage, and backups of same. At some point they added some flavor of
source control machinery, once those became available and popular. But
while customer kits (binary kits) were sent to the Software Distribution
Center for multiplication and distribution, I never saw any indication that
the corresponding source code state was captured and saved, let alone
archived in some central archive. So, for example, while the RSTS team had
the RSTS sources, they didn't exist (in any planned form) elsewhere that I
know of, nor did a full record of older releases exist anywhere.
And when projects are closed down, their resources would tend to just
disappear.
paul
--
Lee Courtney
+1-650-704-3934 cell
On Nov 24, 2021, at 11:18 AM, Chuck Guzis via
cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 11/24/21 6:42 AM, John Herron via cctalk wrote:
> I can speak for state government but not fed (this was 20 years ago). It
> was an annoying buzz kill that we had to destroy old equipment, and
deface
> documentation and software so it would be
unusable from dumpster divers.
> Some pallets of hardware would get "recycled" by department of
corrections
> (prisoners) but there wasn't any thought
of archiving. Especially once
> bills came out to enable requesting of data. That resulted in policies
to
purge
data older than x years and email after 1.
Sometimes it's corporate policy.
...
I don't know what corporate policy was with company-owned software, but
it could well have been similar.
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