7 Mar
2005
7 Mar
'05
4:54 p.m.
(this is one of the messages that *didn't* show up)
OK, next load of questions.
I've been trying to create a "virgin" system from the install media I
have. I have so far successfully sysgenned and built RT11 v5.0, and
installed it on an RL02. Great.
However, the version that boots off one of the hard disks built into the
PDP allows me to access four partitions in total - DU0: to DU3: - but my
own version only has DU0: (same as normal) and DU1: (same as DU3: in the
version of RT11 installed on the hard disk).
If I say "SET DU2: disk=0, part=1" then I can see my "old" DU1: as
DU2:,
and so on.
What do I need to change to get it to come up like this? It doesn't
appear to be a load of "SET" commands in the STARTS.COM file.
Gordon.
7 Mar
7 Mar
5:03 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce
Sent: 07 March 2005 21:54
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions
However, the version that boots off one of the hard disks
built into the PDP allows me to access four partitions in
total - DU0: to DU3: - but my own version only has DU0: (same
as normal) and DU1: (same as DU3: in the version of RT11
installed on the hard disk).
Isn't that something to do with using DUX.SYS instead of DU.SYS or am I
getting confused with RT11XM and something like RT11SJ? It's been 16 or 17
years since I last sysgenned an RT11 box :-\
Aaah, CTS300 and DIBOL......still got my disks with all my sourcecode on.
Wonder if they can still be read.....
cheers
a/w
5:19 p.m.
Adrian Graham wrote:
DUX sounds like it's for the XM monitor - I had a play with that.
On the plus side, I've found a disk marked "SYSGEN DISKETTE" that seems
to have files that might point me the right way.
-----Original
Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce
Sent: 07 March 2005 21:54
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions
However, the version that boots off one of the hard disks
built into the PDP allows me to access four partitions in
total - DU0: to DU3: - but my own version only has DU0: (same
as normal) and DU1: (same as DU3: in the version of RT11
installed on the hard disk).
Isn't that something to do with using DUX.SYS instead of DU.SYS or am I
getting confused with RT11XM and something like RT11SJ? It's been 16 or 17
years since I last sysgenned an RT11 box :-\ Aaah, CTS300 and DIBOL......still got my disks with
all my sourcecode on.
Wonder if they can still be read.....
RX02s? You're more than welcome to come round and try it...
Gordon.
5:36 p.m.
DUX sounds like it's for the XM monitor - I had a
play with that.
On the plus side, I've found a disk marked "SYSGEN DISKETTE"
that seems to have files that might point me the right way.
Good, because I've found my RL02 drive but remembered that my disks are 250
miles away at my other home! Got a micro 73 at work that should still have
an RLV12 in it so that's something :)
Aaah, CTS300
and DIBOL......still got my disks with all my
sourcecode on.
Wonder if they can still be read.....
RX02s? You're more than welcome to come round and try it...
6:16 p.m.
Adrian Graham wrote:
Nooo, RL02s. 9 or 10 of them. There's also a mixture of RT11 V4 and V5 as
well as SYSGEN disks for V5. They'll probably be coming down here next
weekend so it'll be interesting to see how much I can remember!
Cool. Where are you? I've got two RL02 drives (but not the cable that
runs between them!) - so reading RL02s is not a big problem.
Gordon.
DUX sounds like
it's for the XM monitor - I had a play with that.
On the plus side, I've found a disk marked "SYSGEN DISKETTE"
that seems to have files that might point me the right way.
Good, because I've found my RL02 drive but remembered that my disks are 250
miles away at my other home! Got a micro 73 at work that should still have
an RLV12 in it so that's something :)
Aaah,
CTS300 and DIBOL......still got my disks with all my
sourcecode on.
Wonder if they can still be read.....
RX02s? You're more than welcome to come round and try it...
7:42 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce
Sent: 07 March 2005 23:17
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions
Cool. Where are you? I've got two RL02 drives (but not the
cable that runs between them!) - so reading RL02s is not a
big problem.
Darkest hertfordshire in the cold snowy UK :)
a/w
7:57 p.m.
Cool. Where are you? I've got two RL02 drives (but not the
cable that runs between them!) - so reading RL02s is not a
big problem.
Darkest hertfordshire in the cold snowy UK :)
a/w
8 Mar
8 Mar
3:29 a.m.
Jim Beacon wrote:
Well if I ever manage to talk the Boss into letting me have the 11/84 with
its pair of RL02's that's lurking in the corner at work, you can bring them
the 20 or so miles to Chesham!
Chesham is closer than Glasgow...
Might be good to arrange a classiccmp meetup somewhere in the UK.
Possibly timed to coincide with a nearby beer festival?
Cool. Where are you? I've got two RL02 drives
(but not the
cable that runs between them!) - so reading RL02s is not a
big problem.
Darkest hertfordshire in the cold snowy UK :)
a/w
I'd offer the use of the 11/45, but that would
rely on me getting the
controller cards from the 11/84...........
Drives aren't a poblem, but controllers are!
Same here. Spare drive, no controller.
Gordon
4:40 p.m.
From: "Gordon JC Pearce" <gordon at gjcp.net>
Might be good to arrange a classiccmp meetup somewhere in the UK.
Possibly timed to coincide with a nearby beer festival?
We could always consider a display at the NVCF (National Vintage
Communications Fair) at the NEC - usually held in March and September. They
often have displays by special interest groups.
Jim.
5:30 p.m.
Jim Beacon wrote:
From: "Gordon JC Pearce" <gordon at
gjcp.net>
>Might be good to arrange a classiccmp meetup somewhere in the UK.
>Possibly timed to coincide with a nearby beer festival?
We could always consider a display at the NVCF
(National Vintage
Communications Fair) at the NEC - usually held in March and September. They
often have displays by special interest groups.
May 1st, Biiihmingum NEC? <checks Sunbird calendar> Drat, haven't put
my shifts in for May. Still got plenty time to arrange holidays though.
Gordon.
2 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Beacon
Sent: 08 March 2005 00:57
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions
Well if I ever manage to talk the Boss into letting me have
the 11/84 with its pair of RL02's that's lurking in the
corner at work, you can bring them the 20 or so miles to Chesham!
Chesham Bucks? I'm not that far away from there every wednesday so if it
happens and you get the machine I might take you up on that if I haven't got
it going here first.
I'd offer the use of the 11/45, but that would
rely on me
getting the controller cards from the 11/84...........
Drives aren't a poblem, but controllers are!
ah....always the case isn't it :-\
a/w
7 Mar
7 Mar
6:32 p.m.
On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Adrian Graham wrote:
Isn't that something to do with using DUX.SYS
instead of DU.SYS or am I
getting confused with RT11XM and something like RT11SJ? It's been 16 or 17
years since I last sysgenned an RT11 box :-\
What's the difference between RT11XM and RT11SJ? What do the last two
letter signify?
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
6:50 p.m.
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
On Mon, 7 Mar 2005, Adrian Graham wrote:
eXtended Memory, and Single Job. There's also Foreground/Background,
and another one I can't remember.
Gordon.
Isn't that something to do with using DUX.SYS
instead of DU.SYS or am I
getting confused with RT11XM and something like RT11SJ? It's been 16 or 17
years since I last sysgenned an RT11 box :-\
What's the difference between RT11XM and RT11SJ? What do the last two
letter signify?
7:47 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage
Computer Festival
Sent: 07 March 2005 23:33
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: RT11 sysgen and disk partitions
What's the difference between RT11XM and RT11SJ? What do the
last two letter signify?
XM is eXtended Monitor, SJ is Single Job and there was also RT11FB for
foreground/background which let you have not-quite-multitasking on a single
user system. The reasons for us using XM over FB or SJ have been lost in the
mists of time - we used CTS300 over the top of the OS so it didn't matter
whether it was true single user or not. Bits of me think XM had the extra
functionality we needed for a multi-user runtime system but.....
When I have a nose through my disks it should refresh the old memory
somewhat :)
cheers
a/w
11:34 p.m.
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
On Mon, 7 Mar
2005, Adrian Graham wrote:
Isn't that something to do with using DUX.SYS
instead of DU.SYS or am I
getting confused with RT11XM and something like RT11SJ? It's been 16 or 17
years since I last sysgenned an RT11 box :-\
What's the difference between RT11XM and RT11SJ? What do the last two
letter signify?
9 Mar
9 Mar
11:34 p.m.
Jerome Fine replies:
Mapped - Device drivers are ddX.SYS
------
RT11XM - (eXtended Memory) Allows both a Foreground and a Background
job more recent versions also allow system jobs
Don't forget RT11ZM (extended memory monitor with separate I&D support)
and RT11ZB (Single-job version of extended memory monitor with separate
I&D support)
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com |
| Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com |
| SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) |
| 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
7 Mar
7 Mar
6:56 p.m.
However, the version that boots off one of the hard
disks built into the
PDP allows me to access four partitions in total - DU0: to DU3: - but my
own version only has DU0: (same as normal) and DU1: (same as DU3: in the
version of RT11 installed on the hard disk).
If I say "SET DU2: disk=0, part=1" then I can see my "old" DU1: as
DU2:,
and so on.
What do I need to change to get it to come up like this? It doesn't
appear to be a load of "SET" commands in the STARTS.COM file.
I believe you want something like the following (my notes aren't handy at
the moment).
SET DU0: UNIT=0,PART=0
SET DU1: UNIT=0,PART=1
SET DU2: UNIT=0,PART=2
SET DU3: UNIT=1,PART=0
Zane
8 Mar
8 Mar
3:32 a.m.
Zane H. Healy wrote:
I believe you want something like the following (my notes aren't handy at
the moment).
SET DU0: UNIT=0,PART=0
SET DU1: UNIT=0,PART=1
SET DU2: UNIT=0,PART=2
SET DU3: UNIT=1,PART=0
That *does* do it, but I can't figure out where they go. I could put it
in the STARTS.COM file that's loaded by the SJ monitor when it kicks
off, but it doesn't appear to have been done that way. Even if I rename
STARTS.COM so it never runs, the drives are set up correctly.
Gordon.
8:36 p.m.
Gordon JC Pearce wrote:
Zane H. Healy
wrote:
I believe you want something like the following
(my notes aren't
handy at the moment).
SET DU0: UNIT=0,PART=0
SET DU1: UNIT=0,PART=1 SET DU2: UNIT=0,PART=2
SET DU3: UNIT=1,PART=0
That *does* do it, but I can't figure out where they go. I could put
it in the STARTS.COM file that's loaded by the SJ monitor when it
kicks off, but it doesn't appear to have been done that way. Even if
I rename STARTS.COM so it never runs, the drives are set up correctly. 
9 Mar
9 Mar
6:17 a.m.
Jerome Fine replies:
Once done, the SET command values are held in the
DU.SYS device driver file. You do NOT need to
do the SET commands each time. Probably not
recommended in any case.
Ahaaa... Is that saved in DU.SYS when you issue the commands, then?
Makes sense. I'll try it when I get home.
Assuming you are booting from an RL02, then the
DU.SYS device driver my be LOADed for a bit faster
response after the first usage. In addition, I
strongly suggest you use RT11FB rather than RT11SJ
unless the added size of the RT11FB monitor has
a serious impact on the program which you run.
Well, the idea is to load TSX-Plus over it, which requires the SJ monitor.
In addition, it would be helpful to know the full
version number of the RT-11 version which you are
using. Based on the above SET commands, it must
be at least V05.03 or RT-11 which was released
in 1985. There are certain features which later
versions of RT-11 have that you may wish to be
aware of. the RT-11 command:
SHOW CONFIG
will provide the information, as will the banner
when RT-11 first boots.
On bootup, and in SHOW CONFIG, the version is given as 5.00.
Finally, I strongly recommend against the SET
values which have been suggested since they
impact very negatively with regard to booting
RT-11. You will not lose anything with a
Ok, why is that?
different combination of SET parameters, but
you will gain with respect to what drives
can be booted, in particular from a cold start.
In this instance I want to boot from a "clean" install of RT-11 from DL0,
but eventually I will be booting from DU0.
The exact nature of which disk drives are being
used will also help. I suspect an RD53 and an
RX50, but please confirm. Most novice RT-11
OK, this is where it gets tricky. I'm not totally sure how to identify
the ST506 drives fitted to the machine. One is a full-height 5.25" drive,
with (seemingly) about 65,000 blocks on each partition. The other is
half-height, with considerably less on each partition - one is around
40,000 blocks, one is around 16,000 blocks (if I remember correctly - I'm
not actually near the machine right now to check). The smaller drive is
made by Fujitsu, may be something like M224XAS ? The label is rather hard
to read.
The other drives are an RL02 (I have two but lack the cable that links the
two drives) and an RX02.
Gordon.
10 Mar
10 Mar
11:06 p.m.
> I believe you want something like the following
(my notes aren't handy
> at the moment).
> SET DU0: UNIT=0,PART=0
> SET DU1: UNIT=0,PART=1
> SET DU2: UNIT=0,PART=2
> SET DU3: UNIT=1,PART=0
That *does* do it, but I can't figure out where
they go. I could put it
in the STARTS.COM file that's loaded by the SJ monitor when it kicks
off, but it doesn't appear to have been done that way. Even if I rename
STARTS.COM so it never runs, the drives are set up correctly.
What you need to understand is that RT-11 has a maximum volume size
of 65536 blocks. Therefore, for volumes which are larger than
this (typically only the DU drives, like RD53 and RD54, or SCSI or
DSSI which act like MSCP devices), the drive is logically partitioned
into units of 32mb each...
The UNIT= argument specifies the physical drive for this controller
(with a sysgen of DU, you can have support for multiple controllers,
so there is a DU SET argument PORT= as well). The PART= argument
is the partition number on that unit (partitions are numbered beginning
at 0).
So, UNIT=0, PART=0 references the first 65536 blocks on physical
unit 0.
UNIT=0, PART=1 references the next 65536 blocks on unit 0 (if the
volume is not large enough for another 65536, the last partition
is truncated).
UNIT=1, PART=0 references the first 65536 block partition on physical
unit 1.
and so on...
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com |
| Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com |
| SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) |
| 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
13 Mar
13 Mar
11:11 p.m.
Megan wrote:
What you need to understand is that RT-11 has a maximum
volume size
of 65536 blocks. Therefore, for volumes which are larger than
this (typically only the DU drives, like RD53 and RD54, or SCSI or
DSSI which act like MSCP devices), the drive is logically partitioned
into units of 32mb each...
Jerome Fine replies:
I am pleased you note that each RT-11 partition is
65536 blocks - except maybe (usually) for the last
RT-11 partition. It is again helpful to note that
internally, RT-11 reports the size as 65535 blocks
with the first block being zero and the last block
being block 65534. This is so that a full 16 bit
word can hold that largest size of 65535. blocks
even though the actual size is 65536. blocks.
If anyone thinks to test the above information, try:
COPY/DEVICE DU0:/START:65535./END:65535. DU1:/START:65535.
or any other block for DU1: for that matter. NOTE
that any other "START" block number for DU0: will result
in the END block 65535. not being used. This is because
there is a bug in DUP.SAV which ignores block 65535. except
when there is ONLY a single block to copy. In that case,
I presume that the person who wrote the code forgot to
check that block 65535. should also be ignored in that
case as well. I conclude that the likely reason is that
2 mistakes resulted in what the user requested being done.
For example, try:
COPY/DEVICE DU0:/START:0./END:65535. DU1:/START:0.
the result is the same for both of the following:
COPY/DEVICE DU0: DU1:
COPY/DEVICE DU0:/START:0./END:65534. DU1:/START:0.
with NO warning message being provided in the last
case.
Sincerely yours,
Jerome Fine
--
If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail
address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk
e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be
obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the
'at' with the four digits of the current year.
10 Mar
10 Mar
11:08 p.m.
That *does* do it, but I can't figure out where
they go. I could put it
in the STARTS.COM file that's loaded by the SJ monitor when it kicks
off, but it doesn't appear to have been done that way. Even if I rename
STARTS.COM so it never runs, the drives are set up correctly.
By the way, the reason the drives are set up correctly is because
the SET commands have actually altered the on-disk copy of the
handler. That mapping will stay in effect, across boots, until
you change it.
As an experiment, try issuing a SET command for a device when the
system disk is write-locked. You'll get an error when it tries to
write out the updated portions of the specified device handler to
the system device.
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com |
| Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com |
| SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) |
| 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
7066
days inactive
7073
days old
23 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
gordon＠gjcp.net -
gordonjcp＠gjcp.net -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jhfinexgs2＠compsys.to -
jim＠g1jbg.co.uk -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
mbg＠TheWorld.com -
vcf＠siconic.com -
witchy＠binarydinosaurs.co.uk