6 May
2002
6 May
'02
6:14 a.m.
From: Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com>
It was in UCSD Pascal (on an Apple ][).
As did the Z80 version and the NS* implmentation.
Anyway, Pascal blows.
I disagree. The UCSD version was an excellent teaching tool but
slower than sludge due to the P-code thing. Later implementations
namely JRT and Borland were very useful tools.
If Pascal did one thing it whetted the appetite for better languages than
Dartmuth Basic or worse Integer basics.
My own $0.02, Pascal is a good language and well suited to what I call
fairly big tasks like databases and other fairly complex tasks on data
structures. I also use Assembler, C, DCL, PAL and even QB45/dos for
various tasks depending on the platform and task.
Other than that, computer HLLs are like religion, hold the evangelism
to a dull roar as the music section may not listen and the non believers
have left the room. ;)
Allison
6 May
6 May
6:21 a.m.
New subject: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
I obtained a bunch of 2708 UVEPROM's, and I'd like to
be able to program them. As you may know, they require
a different algorithm than the 2716 and on, and three
voltages, +5, +12, and -5.
I'm building a little board that will program 1/2 (the
upper or lower) of a 2716 to a 2708 (I can program
2716's). But I can't find a description of the
algorithm that is detailed enough. What I think I know
is:
1. The /OE line must be high
2. select address and data (start at addr 0)
3. bring PGM line from 0 to 27 volts for 1 mSec, then
drop back to 0 (this seems very strange)
4. repeat 100 times per address (not all at once,
increment the address lines and loop to avoid
"overheating" a byte.
5. drop /OE and verify.
Does anybody have an authoritative description, and a
current requirement for the +5, +12, -5, and
programming pulse? Thanks.
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9:08 a.m.
New subject: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
I don't think this approach to programming 2708's is at all valid. I've been
rummaging in the basement lately and may be able to find one of the
"moldy-oldies" (literally, as they've been wet) that has a programming
algorithm description in it among my old databooks not yet tossed.
The procedure you describe is a post-2716 algorithm (intelligent) which was
not promoted, even for the 2716. The stock method for the 2716 was to elevate
VPP to 25 volts, write data and address to the device, assert PROG, wait 50
ms, negate PROG, and then proceed to the next byte. I used commercial
programming hardware and didn't give the 1702 or 2708 algorithms a moment's
thought, back then, but it has come up a few times.
Keep in mind that there are numerous DIFFERENT ways to do the job, and each
mfg has a preferred method that you should observe.
http://ee.wustl.edu/~info/docs/2708.pdf is a datasheet with progamming info
for the Motorola part.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Loboyko Steve" <sloboyko(a)yahoo.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 9:21 AM
Subject: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
I obtained a bunch of 2708 UVEPROM's, and I'd
like to
be able to program them. As you may know, they require
a different algorithm than the 2716 and on, and three
voltages, +5, +12, and -5.
I'm building a little board that will program 1/2 (the
upper or lower) of a 2716 to a 2708 (I can program
2716's). But I can't find a description of the
algorithm that is detailed enough. What I think I know
is:
1. The /OE line must be high
2. select address and data (start at addr 0)
3. bring PGM line from 0 to 27 volts for 1 mSec, then
drop back to 0 (this seems very strange)
4. repeat 100 times per address (not all at once,
increment the address lines and loop to avoid
"overheating" a byte.
5. drop /OE and verify.
Does anybody have an authoritative description, and a
current requirement for the +5, +12, -5, and
programming pulse? Thanks.
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com
2:03 p.m.
New subject: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
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3:22 p.m.
New subject: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
It's certainly different. I didn't mean to imply that that algorithm was
identical to the "intelligent" method. Several of my programmers, including a
couple I've built myself, albeit for later (28-pin) parts, use an algorithm
similar to what you describe, though it's still from before the
"intelligent"
algorithm became popular. That was about concurrent with the availability of
CMOS EPROMs, IIRC.
more below...
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
>
> I don't think this approach to programming 2708's is at all valid. I've
been
Well, it's pretty similar to the one in the NatSemi datasheet I've just
looked at (I posted the corrections separately). I doubt you know more
about programming 2708s that they do....
Certainly not. I bought a programmer that would to the 2708's much later than
I ever needed it. Of course it would handle other parts.
I used to let Data I/O handle the 1702's and 2708's for me.
> rummaging in the basement lately and may be able to find one of the
> "moldy-oldies" (literally, as they've been wet) that has a
programming
> algorithm description in it among my old databooks not yet tossed.
>
> The procedure you describe is a post-2716 algorithm (intelligent) which
was
Not at all :
The 'intelligent' programming algorithm is something like :
Apply Vpp
Set up address and data
Apply a 1ms program pulse
Verify the data
Apply another 1ms program pulse
Verify the data again
Keep on applying 1ms pulses until the location verifies (OK, give up if
it takes more than 50 pulses or something).
THen apply 4 times as many pulses again to ensure that location stays
programmed.
Then go on to the next location and repeat the process.
The 2708 algorithm is
Apply 12V to CE/ to go into program mode
Set up address and data
Apply a 1ms program pulse
Go to the next location (in other words change address and data)
Apply a 1ms program pulse there
Keep on until yuu've programmed all 1024 locations
Now do the whole thing again, a total of 100 times (or to be exact so
each locations sees a total program pulse width of 100ms).
Note the differences. For the Intellegent algorithm you program one
locations completely and go on to the nect. For the 2708 you apply a
little pulse to each location, tben go on to the next location. For the
intellegent algorithm you verify the data after each pulse and only give
the chip as many program pulses as are needed. For the 2708 you give each
location a total of 100ms of program pulse and only verify the location
at the end of programming.
-tony
7:16 p.m.
New subject: DMA Systems MicroMagnum drive.
Hey,
Some lucky person, who's email address I lost in a disk crash, bought a
funky ST-506 dual
hard drive, with 5 meg fixed and 5 meg in a removable cartridge
(emulates 2 ST-506 drives).
Alas the drive in question had the older-style power connector, rather
than the late-model 4 pin
Molex we know today.
If you bought this drive, please send me an email off-list with your
address, and I'll send you
an old copy of the manual for the drive with the power connector data,
etc. I just found it while
digging in the workshop!
7:17 p.m.
New subject: DMA Systems MicroMagnum drive.
On Tue, 7 May 2002, Bob Shannon wrote:
Some lucky person, who's email address I lost in a
disk crash, bought a
funky ST-506 dual hard drive, with 5 meg fixed and 5 meg in a removable
cartridge (emulates 2 ST-506 drives).
Alas the drive in question had the older-style power connector, rather
than the late-model 4 pin Molex we know today.
If you bought this drive, please send me an email off-list with your
address, and I'll send you an old copy of the manual for the drive with
the power connector data, etc. I just found it while digging in the
workshop!
Wasn't this John Allain? I remember making the pitch of the century to
get that thing sold at VCF East :)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
7:55 p.m.
New subject: DMA Systems MicroMagnum drive.
Yeah, Yankee shoppers, it was a tough crowd at VCF East 1.0!
Sellam Ismail wrote:
On Tue, 7 May 2002, Bob Shannon wrote:
Some lucky person, who's email address I lost
in a disk crash, bought a
funky ST-506 dual hard drive, with 5 meg fixed and 5 meg in a removable
cartridge (emulates 2 ST-506 drives).
Alas the drive in question had the older-style power connector, rather
than the late-model 4 pin Molex we know today.
If you bought this drive, please send me an email off-list with your
address, and I'll send you an old copy of the manual for the drive with
the power connector data, etc. I just found it while digging in the
workshop!
Wasn't this John Allain? I remember making the pitch of the century to
get that thing sold at VCF East :)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
7:28 p.m.
New subject: DMA Systems MicroMagnum drive.
Ah, DMA Systems ... I remember them well as I used to make some of their
prototype PC Boards for the removeable HDs while they were in
development. I *think* they ran out of venture capital somewhere along
the line and were sold to IIRC Ricoh. I found one of their drives
packaged in a chassis produced by ... can't remember the name but I
think it was a local company ... without any cartridges. One of the
engineers who used to work at DMA Systems still had a cartridge for it
that I have now.
Bob Shannon wrote:
Hey,
Some lucky person, who's email address I lost in a disk crash, bought a
funky ST-506 dual
hard drive, with 5 meg fixed and 5 meg in a removable cartridge
(emulates 2 ST-506 drives).
Alas the drive in question had the older-style power connector, rather
than the late-model 4 pin
Molex we know today.
If you bought this drive, please send me an email off-list with your
address, and I'll send you
an old copy of the manual for the drive with the power connector data,
etc. I just found it while
digging in the workshop!
8:04 p.m.
New subject: DMA Systems MicroMagnum drive.
Well, a new-in-the-box drive with a cartridge was sold at VCF East!
A really slick little drive. I think the only reason it was not more
popuar was because it was far far
deeper than the standard 5 1/4 inch full-height drives. This made
mounting it in any existing chassis
a major pain. It almost had to be designed-in.
Some small company in Massachusettes made a odd little 68000 based Unix
workstation, a rather slick
little box as I recall. Could this be the machine your thinking of?
Do you have any idea of how many of these drives were ever made?
(I'd like to point out that the disk that crashed was not a DMA systems
product.)
Marvin Johnston wrote:
Ah, DMA Systems ... I remember them well as I used to
make some of their
prototype PC Boards for the removeable HDs while they were in
development. I *think* they ran out of venture capital somewhere along
the line and were sold to IIRC Ricoh. I found one of their drives
packaged in a chassis produced by ... can't remember the name but I
think it was a local company ... without any cartridges. One of the
engineers who used to work at DMA Systems still had a cartridge for it
that I have now.
Bob Shannon wrote:
Hey,
Some lucky person, who's email address I lost in a disk crash, bought a
funky ST-506 dual
hard drive, with 5 meg fixed and 5 meg in a removable cartridge
(emulates 2 ST-506 drives).
Alas the drive in question had the older-style power connector, rather
than the late-model 4 pin
Molex we know today.
If you bought this drive, please send me an email off-list with your
address, and I'll send you
an old copy of the manual for the drive with the power connector data,
etc. I just found it while
digging in the workshop!
8:22 p.m.
New subject: DMA Systems MicroMagnum drive.
Actually as I understand it, one of the major problems with the DMA
Systems drives was reliability, and THAT was the reason IIRC that they
didn't become more popular. In the process of making the drives more
reliable, they ran out of money. I attended the auction where a lot of
DMA equipment and supplies were auctioned off. IIRC, they still had a
small company to support the drives because of the laws regarding
support for consumer electronics.
Bob Shannon wrote:
Well, a new-in-the-box drive with a cartridge was sold at VCF East!
A really slick little drive. I think the only reason it was not more
popuar was because it was far far
deeper than the standard 5 1/4 inch full-height drives. This made
mounting it in any existing chassis
a major pain. It almost had to be designed-in.
Some small company in Massachusettes made a odd little 68000 based
Unix workstation, a rather slick
little box as I recall. Could this be the machine your thinking of?
Do you have any idea of how many of these drives were ever made?
(I'd like to point out that the disk that crashed was not a DMA
systems product.)
Marvin Johnston wrote:
> Ah, DMA Systems ... I remember them well as I used to make some of
> their
> prototype PC Boards for the removeable HDs while they were in
> development. I *think* they ran out of venture capital somewhere
> along
> the line and were sold to IIRC Ricoh. I found one of their drives
> packaged in a chassis produced by ... can't remember the name but I
> think it was a local company ... without any cartridges. One of the
> engineers who used to work at DMA Systems still had a cartridge for
> it
> that I have now.
> Bob Shannon wrote:
>
>> Hey,
>> Some lucky person, who's email address I lost in a disk crash,
>> bought a
>> funky ST-506 dual
>> hard drive, with 5 meg fixed and 5 meg in a removable cartridge
>> (emulates 2 ST-506 drives).
>> Alas the drive in question had the older-style power connector,
>> rather
>> than the late-model 4 pin
>> Molex we know today.
>> If you bought this drive, please send me an email off-list with
>> your
>> address, and I'll send you
>> an old copy of the manual for the drive with the power connector
>> data,
>> etc. I just found it while
>> digging in the workshop!
>>
11:29 a.m.
New subject: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
Steve,
I don't have the programming instructions for the 2708 but I do have them for the
intel 8708 and intels later manuals state that they're the same. Here's what I
have in the sept 1975 8080 Microcomputer Systems User's manual.
At 08:21 AM 5/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
I obtained a bunch of 2708 UVEPROM's, and I'd
like to
be able to program them. As you may know, they require
a different algorithm than the 2716 and on, and three
voltages, +5, +12, and -5.
I'm building a little board that will program 1/2 (the
upper or lower) of a 2716 to a 2708 (I can program
2716's). But I can't find a description of the
algorithm that is detailed enough. What I think I know
is:
1. The /OE line must be high
Intel says to raise the CS*/WE line to +12 volt.
2. select address and data (start at addr 0)
Correct. A note here says that the logicx levels for the address, data and voltage
supply lines are the same as for the read mode.
3. bring PGM line from 0 to 27 volts for 1 mSec,
Correct except you can use 25 (min) to 27 (max) volts according to the manual.
then
drop back to 0 (this seems very strange)
You have to allow for the setup time for the new address and data. The times are 10uS
(min) for each but they could be different for the 2708.
4. repeat 100 times per address (not all at once,
NO. This isn't what's in the intel manual. It says one programming pulse per
address per loop. And that a loop is one pass through all the addresses. You have to
repeat the loop until N (passes) x Tpw (programming pulse width) >= 100mS.
increment the address lines and loop to avoid
"overheating" a byte.
5. drop /OE and verify.
"Note that programming and read loops can be alternated"
Does anybody have an authoritative description, and a
current requirement for the +5, +12, -5, and
programming pulse? Thanks.
It varies according to the temperature but the max occurs at low temp and is about 11ma
for Icc @5.25v, 65ma for Idd @12.6v with CS*/WE high and about 35 ma with CS*/WE low, 41ma
for Ibb @-5.25v with CS*/WE high and about 17ma with CS*/WE low.
The programming pulse current is typically 10mA with 20mA max.
Have fun!
Joe
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com
9:51 a.m.
New subject: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
I do believe you've misread part of the spec's, Joe. The 8708, IIRC, is a
5-volt-only version of the 2708, otherwise masqueraded as the 2758. I got one
of these back in the mid-late '70's, on an 8748 evaluation board, and as such,
it was my first 5-volt-only EPROM. They were described by the Intel FAE as
2716's with a flaw in one half or the other, and they were available in two
types, with either a high or low enable where the 2716 had an address line.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe" <rigdonj(a)cfl.rr.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
manual.
per address per loop. And that a loop is one pass through all the addresses.
You have to repeat the loop until N (passes) x Tpw (programming pulse width)
Steve,
I don't have the programming instructions for the 2708 but I do have them
for the intel 8708 and intels later manuals state that they're the same.
Here's what I have in the sept 1975 8080 Microcomputer Systems User's manual.
At 08:21 AM 5/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
and
voltage supply lines are the same as for the read mode.
I obtained a bunch of 2708 UVEPROM's, and
I'd like to
be able to program them. As you may know, they require
a different algorithm than the 2716 and on, and three
voltages, +5, +12, and -5.
I'm building a little board that will program 1/2 (the
upper or lower) of a 2716 to a 2708 (I can program
2716's). But I can't find a description of the
algorithm that is detailed enough. What I think I know
is:
1. The /OE line must be high
Intel says to raise the CS*/WE line to +12 volt.
2. select address and data (start at addr 0)
Correct. A note here says that the logicx levels for the address, data 3. bring PGM line from 0 to 27 volts for 1 mSec,
Correct except you can use 25 (min) to 27 (max) volts according to the
then
times are
10uS (min) for each but they could be different for the 2708.
drop back to 0 (this seems very strange)
You have to allow for the setup time for the new address and data. The 4. repeat 100 times per address (not all at once,
NO. This isn't what's in the intel manual. It says one programming pulse
= 100mS.
is
about 11ma for Icc @5.25v, 65ma for Idd @12.6v with CS*/WE high and about
35 ma with CS*/WE low, 41ma for Ibb @-5.25v with CS*/WE high and about 17ma
with CS*/WE low.
increment the address lines and loop to avoid
"overheating" a byte.
5. drop /OE and verify.
"Note that programming and read loops can be alternated"
Does anybody have an authoritative description, and a
current requirement for the +5, +12, -5, and
programming pulse? Thanks.
It varies according to the temperature but the max occurs at low temp and
The programming pulse current is typically 10mA with 20mA max.
Have fun!
Joe
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com
12:51 p.m.
New subject: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
Dick,
No I didn't. It's "Intel 8080 Microcomputer Systems User's
Manual", September 1975. I've got it right here in front of me. FWIW I don't
think the 27xxs were even out when this data book was printed. There's no 27xx parts
in here at all. The "Intel MCS-80 User's Manual", October 1977 lists the
2716 and stresses that it's a 5v only part but it doesn't list the 2708 at all.
Both books state the the 8708 uses standard power supplies; +12v, +/- 5v.
The older manual also list a 8704 that's a 512 x 8 bit part (instead of 1k x 8),
perhaps that's what you're thinking of.
Joe
At 12:51 PM 5/6/02 -0600, you wrote:
I do believe you've misread part of the spec's,
Joe. The 8708, IIRC, is a
5-volt-only version of the 2708, otherwise masqueraded as the 2758. I got one
of these back in the mid-late '70's, on an 8748 evaluation board, and as such,
it was my first 5-volt-only EPROM. They were described by the Intel FAE as
2716's with a flaw in one half or the other, and they were available in two
types, with either a high or low enable where the 2716 had an address line.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe" <rigdonj(a)cfl.rr.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
manual.
per address per loop. And that a loop is one pass through all the addresses.
You have to repeat the loop until N (passes) x Tpw (programming pulse width)
Steve,
I don't have the programming instructions for the 2708 but I do have them
for the intel 8708 and intels later manuals state that they're the same.
Here's what I have in the sept 1975 8080 Microcomputer Systems User's manual.
At 08:21 AM 5/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
and
voltage supply lines are the same as for the read mode.
I obtained a bunch of 2708 UVEPROM's, and
I'd like to
be able to program them. As you may know, they require
a different algorithm than the 2716 and on, and three
voltages, +5, +12, and -5.
I'm building a little board that will program 1/2 (the
upper or lower) of a 2716 to a 2708 (I can program
2716's). But I can't find a description of the
algorithm that is detailed enough. What I think I know
is:
1. The /OE line must be high
Intel says to raise the CS*/WE line to +12 volt.
2. select address and data (start at addr 0)
Correct. A note here says that the logicx levels for the address, data 3. bring PGM line from 0 to 27 volts for 1 mSec,
Correct except you can use 25 (min) to 27 (max) volts according to the
then
times are
10uS (min) for each but they could be different for the 2708.
drop back to 0 (this seems very strange)
You have to allow for the setup time for the new address and data. The 4. repeat 100 times per address (not all at once,
NO. This isn't what's in the intel manual. It says one programming pulse
= 100mS.
is
about 11ma for Icc @5.25v, 65ma for Idd @12.6v with CS*/WE high and about
35 ma with CS*/WE low, 41ma for Ibb @-5.25v with CS*/WE high and about 17ma
with CS*/WE low.
increment the address lines and loop to avoid
"overheating" a byte.
5. drop /OE and verify.
"Note that programming and read loops can be alternated"
Does anybody have an authoritative description, and a
current requirement for the +5, +12, -5, and
programming pulse? Thanks.
It varies according to the temperature but the max occurs at low temp and
The programming pulse current is typically 10mA with 20mA max.
Have fun!
Joe
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com
11:20 a.m.
New subject: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
Now I'm really confused, Joe. Thanks for stirring the coals, though.
I can't find any Intel memory data before '82, and by that time they were on
5-volt-only EPROMs all the way. The brocheure I'm thinking of, with respect
to that 8748 evaluation board, has the "it's a 5-volt world" slogan that
Intel
liked to use in promoting the 2716 back then, but I'll find the '78 8748 book
eventually, since I just looked at it yesterday.
't seems like I'll never learn to keep house ...
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe" <rigdonj(a)cfl.rr.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
Dick,
No I didn't. It's "Intel 8080 Microcomputer Systems User's
Manual",
September 1975. I've got it right here in front of me. FWIW I
don't think the
27xxs were even out when this data book was printed. There's no 27xx parts in
here at all. The "Intel MCS-80 User's Manual", October 1977 lists the 2716
and
stresses that it's a 5v only part but it doesn't list the 2708 at all. Both
books state the the 8708 uses standard power supplies; +12v, +/- 5v.
The older manual also list a 8704 that's a 512 x 8 bit part (instead of 1k
x
8), perhaps that's what you're thinking of.
Joe
At 12:51 PM 5/6/02 -0600, you wrote:
>I do believe you've misread part of the spec's, Joe. The 8708, IIRC, is a
>5-volt-only version of the 2708, otherwise masqueraded as the 2758. I got
one
>of these back in the mid-late '70's, on an
8748 evaluation board, and as
such,
>it was my first 5-volt-only EPROM. They were
described by the Intel FAE as
>2716's with a flaw in one half or the other, and they were available in two
>types, with either a high or low enable where the 2716 had an address line.
>
>Dick
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Joe" <rigdonj(a)cfl.rr.com>
>To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
>Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 3:29 PM
>Subject: Re: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
>
>
>> Steve,
>>
>> I don't have the programming instructions for the 2708 but I do have
them
>for the intel 8708 and intels later manuals state
that they're the same.
>Here's what I have in the sept 1975 8080 Microcomputer Systems User's
manual.
>>
>> At 08:21 AM 5/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>> >I obtained a bunch of 2708 UVEPROM's, and I'd like to
>> >be able to program them. As you may know, they require
>> >a different algorithm than the 2716 and on, and three
>> >voltages, +5, +12, and -5.
>> >
>> >I'm building a little board that will program 1/2 (the
>> >upper or lower) of a 2716 to a 2708 (I can program
>> >2716's). But I can't find a description of the
>> >algorithm that is detailed enough. What I think I know
>> >is:
>> >
>> >1. The /OE line must be high
>>
>> Intel says to raise the CS*/WE line to +12 volt.
>>
>>
>> >2. select address and data (start at addr 0)
>>
>> Correct. A note here says that the logicx levels for the address, data
>and voltage supply lines are the same as for the read mode.
>>
>> >3. bring PGM line from 0 to 27 volts for 1 mSec,
>>
>> Correct except you can use 25 (min) to 27 (max) volts according to the
>manual.
>>
>> then
>> >drop back to 0 (this seems very strange)
>>
>> You have to allow for the setup time for the new address and data. The
>times are 10uS (min) for each but they could be different for the 2708.
>>
>> >4. repeat 100 times per address (not all at once,
>>
>> NO. This isn't what's in the intel manual. It says one programming
pulse
>per address per loop. And that a loop is one pass
through all the
addresses.
>You have to repeat the loop until N (passes) x Tpw
(programming pulse
width)
>>= 100mS.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >increment the address lines and loop to avoid
>> >"overheating" a byte.
>> >5. drop /OE and verify.
>>
>>
>> "Note that programming and read loops can be alternated"
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >Does anybody have an authoritative description, and a
>> >current requirement for the +5, +12, -5, and
>> >programming pulse? Thanks.
>>
>> It varies according to the temperature but the max occurs at low temp
and
>is about 11ma for Icc @5.25v, 65ma for Idd @12.6v
with CS*/WE high and
about
35 ma with
CS*/WE low, 41ma for Ibb @-5.25v with CS*/WE high and about 17ma
with CS*/WE low.
The programming pulse current is typically 10mA with 20mA max.
Have fun!
Joe
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10:21 a.m.
New subject: 2708 Programming Algorithm - Thanks Everybody!
Thanks to everyone for help with the programming
algorithm. Good thing that I have a few extra to
"experiment with" (i.e., blow up). I may put this on
the back burner for a while.
An additional ugliness in the spec is that apparently
the -5 has to be the first and last voltage the chip
sees. I hope that this is not TOO critical...sometimes
I forget how "good" we have it now.
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11:11 a.m.
New subject: 2708 Programming Algorithm - Thanks Everybody!
If you need more, let me know.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Loboyko Steve" <sloboyko(a)yahoo.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: 2708 Programming Algorithm - Thanks Everybody!
Thanks to everyone for help with the programming
algorithm. Good thing that I have a few extra to
"experiment with" (i.e., blow up). I may put this on
the back burner for a while.
An additional ugliness in the spec is that apparently
the -5 has to be the first and last voltage the chip
sees. I hope that this is not TOO critical...sometimes
I forget how "good" we have it now.
__________________________________________________
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12:53 p.m.
New subject: 2708 Programming Algorithm - Thanks Everybody!
At 12:21 PM 5/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
Thanks to everyone for help with the programming
algorithm. Good thing that I have a few extra to
"experiment with" (i.e., blow up). I may put this on
the back burner for a while.
An additional ugliness in the spec is that apparently
the -5 has to be the first and last voltage the chip
sees. I hope that this is not TOO critical...sometimes
I forget how "good" we have it now.
Personaly I wouldn't touch anything older than a 2716 if I had anything to say
about it. The older ones were a real PITA to use!
Joe>
11:51 a.m.
New subject: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
I was just looking at the programming instructions for the 2716 and it's very
different than a 2708 in some areas. For example Intel says the programming pulse should
be 50ms (55MS MAX). I can't find any mention of a minimum number of programing pulses
or minimum total time so I THINK one pulse is supposed to be able to program it. Of
course, you'll want to verify the data and reprogram it if necessary. They specificly
state "that the 2716 must not be programmed with a DC signal applied to the CE*/PGM
input."
Joe
At 08:21 AM 5/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
I obtained a bunch of 2708 UVEPROM's, and I'd
like to
be able to program them. As you may know, they require
a different algorithm than the 2716 and on, and three
voltages, +5, +12, and -5.
I'm building a little board that will program 1/2 (the
upper or lower) of a 2716 to a 2708 (I can program
2716's). But I can't find a description of the
algorithm that is detailed enough. What I think I know
is:
1. The /OE line must be high
2. select address and data (start at addr 0)
3. bring PGM line from 0 to 27 volts for 1 mSec, then
drop back to 0 (this seems very strange)
4. repeat 100 times per address (not all at once,
increment the address lines and loop to avoid
"overheating" a byte.
5. drop /OE and verify.
Does anybody have an authoritative description, and a
current requirement for the +5, +12, -5, and
programming pulse? Thanks.
__________________________________________________
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1:24 p.m.
New subject: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
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1:18 p.m.
New subject: 2708 Programming Algorithm?u
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4:03 p.m.
New subject: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
Steve,
Is there a reason why you're trying to design your own 2708 programmer instead of
using a commercail one? I have a DATA I/O model 19 with a Gang Programming Module and 2708
personality module if you need to use it.
Joe
At 08:21 AM 5/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
I obtained a bunch of 2708 UVEPROM's, and I'd
like to
be able to program them. As you may know, they require
a different algorithm than the 2716 and on, and three
voltages, +5, +12, and -5.
I'm building a little board that will program 1/2 (the
upper or lower) of a 2716 to a 2708 (I can program
2716's). But I can't find a description of the
algorithm that is detailed enough. What I think I know
is:
1. The /OE line must be high
2. select address and data (start at addr 0)
3. bring PGM line from 0 to 27 volts for 1 mSec, then
drop back to 0 (this seems very strange)
4. repeat 100 times per address (not all at once,
increment the address lines and loop to avoid
"overheating" a byte.
5. drop /OE and verify.
Does anybody have an authoritative description, and a
current requirement for the +5, +12, -5, and
programming pulse? Thanks.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com
8 May
8 May
4:03 p.m.
New subject: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
I response your request for a method to program 2708s, I put the documents
for a 1977 vintage programming card on my web site. The board was built by
"The Micro Works" for the SWTPC 6800 computer. The page includes the
schematic and the 6800 source code. The circuit and algorithm are simple.
http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MicroWorks/B09_Index.htm
(Thanks to Jay West for hosting the site.)
I worked for Data I/O (the PROM programmer company) for a number of years
and the programming algorithms are different each IC vendor. Sometimes they
are very similar and sometimes incompatible. Often the algorithm would
change over the production run of an IC. Sometimes Data I/O would get a
request to change the algorithm because the semiconductor maker would have
several lots of parts that would not program correctly with existing
algorithm. (They may work but the EPROM did not pass life test or
something.) As soon as the updated algorithm was in the field the
semiconductor maker could ship the ICs they had been holding.
This is the reason they only wanted to release the programming data to a few
companies. It was easier for them to correct the algorithm if they could
contact everyone who had it.
Michael Holley
www.swtpc.com/mholley
----- Original Message -----
From: "Loboyko Steve" <sloboyko(a)yahoo.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 8:21 AM
Subject: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
I obtained a bunch of 2708 UVEPROM's, and I'd
like to
be able to program them. As you may know, they require
a different algorithm than the 2716 and on, and three
voltages, +5, +12, and -5.
I'm building a little board that will program 1/2 (the
upper or lower) of a 2716 to a 2708 (I can program
2716's). But I can't find a description of the
algorithm that is detailed enough. What I think I know
is:
1. The /OE line must be high
2. select address and data (start at addr 0)
3. bring PGM line from 0 to 27 volts for 1 mSec, then
drop back to 0 (this seems very strange)
4. repeat 100 times per address (not all at once,
increment the address lines and loop to avoid
"overheating" a byte.
5. drop /OE and verify.
Does anybody have an authoritative description, and a
current requirement for the +5, +12, -5, and
programming pulse? Thanks.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com
6:14 p.m.
New subject: The Micro Works was: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
From: "Michael Holley"
<swtpc6800(a)attbi.com>
The board was built by
"The Micro Works" for the SWTPC 6800 computer.
Ah, the Micro Works! That brings back memories. I worked with them on some
CoCo projects in 1981 or so. They made a ROMpack (the first 3rd party one,
I believe) with two 2716s or 2732s on a pcb with a vacuum-formed case in
order to publish a game I wrote (an Asteroids clone). If I recall
correctly, they also sold their monitor and assembler products in ROM form.
If anyone has a copy of the editor/assembler, SDS80C, I'd love to get a dump
of it.
The game didn't make that much money; EPROMs were a lot more expensive than
the usual cassettes and you really couldn't charge too much more. I just
dug up a 1982 price list from Computerware, a store in Encinitas, CA that
specialized in CoCo stuff. They sold the ROMpack w/o EPROMs for $24.95. The
game was $39.95, and on two 2716s, so there wasn't much margin there...
Jim
8:11 p.m.
New subject: The Micro Works was: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
On Wed, 8 May 2002, Jim Kearney wrote:
They also produced CBUG, a 6809 monitor program, and DISASM, a 6809
disassembler program, amongst other things for the CoCo. I have
binaries of both of those.
Nice people.
- don
From:
"Michael Holley" <swtpc6800(a)attbi.com>
The board was built by
"The Micro Works" for the SWTPC 6800 computer.
Ah, the Micro Works! That brings back memories. I worked with them on some
CoCo projects in 1981 or so. They made a ROMpack (the first 3rd party one,
I believe) with two 2716s or 2732s on a pcb with a vacuum-formed case in
order to publish a game I wrote (an Asteroids clone). If I recall
correctly, they also sold their monitor and assembler products in ROM form.
If anyone has a copy of the editor/assembler, SDS80C, I'd love to get a dump
of it. The game didn't make that much money; EPROMs were
a lot more expensive than
the usual cassettes and you really couldn't charge too much more. I just
dug up a 1982 price list from Computerware, a store in Encinitas, CA that
specialized in CoCo stuff. They sold the ROMpack w/o EPROMs for $24.95. The
game was $39.95, and on two 2716s, so there wasn't much margin there...
Jim
9 May
9 May
3:34 a.m.
New subject: The Micro Works was: 2708 Programming Algorithm?
From: "Don Maslin" <donm(a)cts.com>
They also produced CBUG, a 6809 monitor program, and DISASM, a 6809
disassembler program, amongst other things for the CoCo. I have
binaries of both of those.
Yes, I have a EPROM with CBUG, but not the disassembler. That was on tape,
wasn't it?
They also made some kind of parallel port than plugged into the cartridge
slot, so you could have a modem and a printer active simultaneously.
Nice people.
Yes, they were. I came to them out of the blue, after noticing their
address was only a few miles away, and they were super helpful.
Interestingly enough, the Telewriter guy was on the next block, too!
Jim
6 May
6 May
7:14 a.m.
Allison wrote:
I disagree. The UCSD version was an excellent
teaching tool but
slower than sludge due to the P-code thing. Later implementations
namely JRT and Borland were very useful tools.
Lets face it the 8080/Z80 6502 and the 8086 (with no math co-processer)
are very limited cpu's. P-code is easy to emulate on a small (and brain
dead) CPU's. I had looked at Pascal a few times but often features like
SETS and cursor addressing often changed between different venders
making
less than portable code. Also I/O was different between Files and
Terminals
making harder to write generic I/O. I think C took off because it had
fairly (for that time) standard I/O.
Other than that, computer HLLs are like religion, hold
the evangelism
to a dull roar as the music section may not listen and the non believers
have left the room. ;)
I think small and clean ( bootstrap able too is handy)
languages are few
and far between. C was that at one time, but not any more. While I don't
expect complers to run in 64kb I think 64 Meg is far too much bloat.
--
Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu *
www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html
8112
days inactive
8115
days old
26 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
ajp166＠bellatlantic.net -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
bshannon＠tiac.net -
donm＠cts.com -
edick＠idcomm.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
jim＠jkearney.com -
marvin＠rain.org -
rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com -
sloboyko＠yahoo.com -
swtpc6800＠attbi.com