5 Oct
2002
5 Oct
'02
9:26 p.m.
So, does anyone know what ever happend to Richard Erlacher?
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
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* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
6 Oct
6 Oct
8:19 p.m.
On Sunday, October 6, 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote:
So, does anyone know what ever happend to Richard
Erlacher?
As far as his list membership is concerned... Some time ago, his email
account began to spam the list with harmful attachments. I put him into
moderated mode and demanded that he fix the problem. He did not, so I
removed him from the list. I don't remember when, why, or how they stopped,
but it's been a while since I saw anything from him (always a
harmful-attachment mail) in the non-subscrber post queue.
--
Jeffrey Sharp
7 Oct
7 Oct
2:52 a.m.
Should someone check on him to see if everything is OK?
A couple of years ago I was exchanging email with a guy down in Texas
about his TRS-80 Model 1 which he wanted to give way. Didn't hear from
in a while, so I sent an "what's up" message. Got a message some time
later from his daughter that he passed away shortly after that message.
Strangely enough he packaged up the computer before he passed away and
his daughter was kind enough to send it.
Weird.
-Chandra
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-admin(a)classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Jeffrey Sharp
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 1:17 AM
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Richard Erlacher?
On Sunday, October 6, 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote:
So, does anyone know what ever happend to Richard
Erlacher?
As far as his list membership is concerned... Some time ago, his email
account began to spam the list with harmful attachments. I put him into
moderated mode and demanded that he fix the problem. He did not, so I
removed him from the list. I don't remember when, why, or how they
stopped,
but it's been a while since I saw anything from him (always a
harmful-attachment mail) in the non-subscrber post queue.
--
Jeffrey Sharp
6:13 p.m.
On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Chandra Bajpai wrote:
Should someone check on him to see if everything is
OK?
A couple of years ago I was exchanging email with a guy down in Texas
about his TRS-80 Model 1 which he wanted to give way. Didn't hear from
in a while, so I sent an "what's up" message. Got a message some time
later from his daughter that he passed away shortly after that message.
Strangely enough he packaged up the computer before he passed away and
his daughter was kind enough to send it.
Weird.
It happens. I had a similar experience with someone local to me in
Houston. Strangely enough, I got a well used and fairly complete TRS-80
Model 1 from that person. I *really* regret not getting all the QST, Radio
Electronics, etc magazines from him now, but at least I got the 80 Micro
magazines.
One day I'm gonna have to finish rebuilding the Selectric printer that
came with it and put pictures of it and the interface box up...
-Toth
6:39 p.m.
A couple of
years ago I was exchanging email with a guy down in Texas
about his TRS-80 Model 1 which he wanted to give way. Didn't hear from
in a while, so I sent an "what's up" message. Got a message some time
later from his daughter that he passed away shortly after that message.
It
happens. I had a similar experience with someone local to me in
8:58 p.m.
New subject: Jeffrey Worley? (Was: Richard Erlacher?)
On Monday, October 7, 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
A couple of times I've had people die in mid
transaction. Fortunately most
executors don't mind finishing the transaction.
A while back we thought something had happened to Jeffrey Worley (technoid).
People were wanting to get in touch with him. I just Googled for him, and it
looks like there's some new activity as recent as 06/20, as can be seen on
this page:
http://www.nsva.org/guestbook/guestbook.html
Looks like his current address may be technoid at 30below.com.
--
Jeffrey Sharp
8 Oct
8 Oct
3:31 a.m.
At 08:40 PM 10/7/2002 -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
A couple of times I've had people die in mid
transaction. Fortunately
most executors don't mind finishing the transaction.
I know this list has talked about it before, but it would
be great if there was an automated "dead man's switch" system
that could notify the buzzards to collect the collection.
Sure, a will helps, but who bothers to list all their
computer junk in their will?
- John
3:52 a.m.
It's for Windows (and thus violates the 10 year rule...) but anyway:
http://www.daisyman.arsware.org/dms/
--John
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-admin(a)classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On
Behalf Of John Foust
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 08:20
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: Richard Erlacher?
At 08:40 PM 10/7/2002 -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
A couple of times I've had people die in mid
transaction. Fortunately
most executors don't mind finishing the transaction.
I know this list has talked about it before, but it would
be great if there was an automated "dead man's switch" system
that could notify the buzzards to collect the collection.
Sure, a will helps, but who bothers to list all their
computer junk in their will?
- John
7 Oct
7 Oct
3:31 a.m.
At 12:17 AM 10/7/2002 -0500, Jeffrey Sharp wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote:
A quick Google of "richard erlacher death notices" turned
up nothing. :-)
- John
So, does anyone know what ever happend to Richard
Erlacher?
As far as his list membership is concerned... Some time ago, his email
account began to spam the list with harmful attachments. 
6:44 a.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
Ok, I need some advice on what type of scope might be available for
troubleshooting vintage computers.
I have already decided that I need more than is necessary. I want to
limit my choice to a economically priced portable LCD scope. However, I'm
not familar with what is available.
Any good choices?
7:04 a.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
All LCD scopes are junk compared to a good tube scope. I understand that
you're spec'ing a LCD scope, but seriously consider a Tektronix 2445. This
is a four channel 150mhz scope, and they can be had for $400-$500. A 2465
is an even better choice, with the 2465B being the top of the line.
However, 300mhz is far more than you'll ever use day to day, and the B,
while having some nice features, drives the price up into the $1000-$1200
range.
You can also find good deals on the P6131 probes for the 2400 series
scopes. These are far more flexible than the after market Scopemaster
probes. I've found new ones on eBay (unopened) for $35 on occasion.
LCDs scopes are a compromise. The bandwidth is poor (though adequate for
most 4Mhz systems), and do very poorly on dynamic signals. They're OK to
capture a single image, but if you want to watch for jitter in a clock and
such, they're useless.
Again, I acknowledge you've said you wanted a LCD scope, but if this is to
be a primary instrument, I would recommend a good tube scope instead.
--John
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-admin(a)classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On
Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 11:46
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
Ok, I need some advice on what type of scope might be available for
troubleshooting vintage computers.
I have already decided that I need more than is necessary. I want to
limit my choice to a economically priced portable LCD scope. However, I'm
not familar with what is available.
Any good choices?
8:08 a.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
--- "J.C. Wren" <jcwren(a)jcwren.com> wrote:
All LCD scopes are junk compared to a good tube
scope. > LCDs scopes are a compromise. The
bandwidth is
poor (though adequate for
most 4Mhz systems), and do very poorly on dynamic
signals. They're OK to
capture a single image, but if you want to watch for
jitter in a clock and
such, they're useless.
Huh? What? My 200Mhz, 2Gs/sec Tek TDS LCD scope works
just fine thank you...
steve
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8:20 a.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
Works just fine, for what measurments?
Analog scopes have clear advantages in some cases, digital scopes in others.
LCD scopes are always digital scopes, and so they have some of the issues
common to CRT based digital scopes.
In most cases, a good quality digital scope (I use a Tek 2430A) can be
pushed
to do what comes easily to a much lower quality analog scope, but it
takes much
more work to get the scope setup just right.
Manufactuers still make analog scopes for this very reason, which type works
best depends on the types of signals, and the types of measurments being
made.
For people just learning to use an oscilloscope, I generally reccomend
you start
with an analog scope, as they are much less likely to 'lie' to you when
you don't have
the scope triggered correctly than a digital scope.
This should not become an argument over which type of scope is 'better'
than the
other. Each type excells at some things, and not others.
But which type of scope should be used for Vintage Compters is easy.
A vintage scope of the correct era for the machine when it was
manufactured, of course!
steve wrote:
--- "J.C. Wren" <jcwren(a)jcwren.com>
wrote:
All LCD scopes are junk compared to a good tube
scope. > LCDs scopes are a compromise. The
bandwidth is
poor (though adequate for
most 4Mhz systems), and do very poorly on dynamic
signals. They're OK to
capture a single image, but if you want to watch for
jitter in a clock and
such, they're useless.
Huh? What? My 200Mhz, 2Gs/sec Tek TDS LCD scope works
just fine thank you...
steve
__________________________________________________
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Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
http://faith.yahoo.com
9:21 a.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
On Mon, Oct 07, 2002 at 01:23:36PM -0400, Bob Shannon wrote:
But which type of scope should be used for Vintage
Compters is easy.
A vintage scope of the correct era for the machine when it was
manufactured, of course!
Mine is a Tekronix RM-503. I also have an old RCA scope, plus a Kenwood
Service Monitor scope (SM-220) that can handle 1KW of RF at up to 150
Mhz.
9 Oct
9 Oct
5:50 p.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Christopher McNabb wrote:
On Mon, Oct 07, 2002 at 01:23:36PM -0400, Bob Shannon
wrote:
Is a RM-503 anything like a RM-561A? Someone gave me a 561A a number of
years ago, but it is still in need of a power switch. The switch is
integrated into the brightness control, and doesn't seem to be a standard
part.
One of the more unusual things I noticed about the Tektronix scopes of
this vintage is that nearly all the components are connected via solder
joints bonded to silver plated notches in ceramic strips. It sure beats
the tag strips often found in other bits of vintage electronics gear...
-Toth
But which type of scope should be used for
Vintage Compters is easy.
A vintage scope of the correct era for the machine when it was
manufactured, of course!
Mine is a Tekronix RM-503. I also have an old RCA scope, plus a Kenwood
Service Monitor scope (SM-220) that can handle 1KW of RF at up to 150
Mhz. 
10 Oct
10 Oct
3:18 p.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
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8:09 p.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
RM-xxx is the Rack Mount version of the xxx. So the
RM503 is a rackmount
503 (IIRC, that one doesn't take plug-ins at all), the RM561 is a
rackmount 561 (later, smaller 500 series, taking plug-ins for both X and
Y).
Right, I knew about the RM-xxx meaning rackmount, but I wondered if the
500 series might have shared a common design.
If the brightness control section is still good, is
there any reason not
to bypass the switch on the back of it, and just use an external
double-pole switch in series with the mains input? It would at least
give you a working 'scope...
Thats kinda how I found it when I got it...except that the wire that was
used to jumper the switch had obviously gotten very hot. Since the wire
had been tack soldered across the terminals, one side seems to have acted
like a fuse. I imagine the power switch was probably damaged due to the
same problem. Oh, and I found that someone had installed a much higher
rated fuse in the scope than should have been installed... Needless to
say, there is something else that needs to be fixed in the 'scope too :)
Indeed. And on some of the more complex 'scopes,
like my 555, there's a
little spool of the special solder (it contains about 3% silver, like
the stuff now used for SMD assembly) mounted inside. To be used for
repairs, of course.
My 561 also has that little spool of solder. I'm not sure if I saw it in
one of the modules or if it was inside the main chassis. There was a
warning label near the solder that indicated solver bearing solder was
required to prevent damage to the silver-ceramic bond.
Unlike modern instruments, you were expected to repair
the 500 series.
Not that they need it very often.
I need to eventually track down manuals for the 561 and it's X/Y modules,
but I've just got way too many projects right now ;)
Do you know if the 561 will require genuine Tektronix probes like the
newer 60MHz analog Teks I mentioned before?
Thinking about it now, I believe I also have a 502 and 502A buried
somewhere, currently in unknown condition.
-Toth
11 Oct
11 Oct
9:32 a.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
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6:43 p.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
The only think I can think of that is "special" about
Tek probes is the 1X/10X switch grounds the small ring
around the BNC connector, so that the unit will switch
and the appropriate 1x/10x lamps will light
automatically. Other good quality probes rated to the
response of the scopes work fine other than that
feature.
--- Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
but I wondered if the
that the wire that was
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On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Tony Duell wrote:
> RM-xxx is the Rack Mount version of the xxx. So
the RM503 is a rackmount
> 503 (IIRC, that one doesn't take
plug-ins at
all), the RM561 is a
> rackmount 561 (later, smaller 500 series,
taking
plug-ins for both X and
Y).
Right, I knew about the RM-xxx meaning rackmount, 500 series might have shared a common design.
Some did. The 53x, 54x, and (most of) 55x have
similarities in mechanical
construciton (and circuitry to some extent). The 53x
were the
low-bandwidth models and the 55x dual beam, of
course. All took the same
plug-ins.
The 58x (100MHz bandwidth, with a beautiful CRT with
distributed
deflection plates and a built-in delay line) were
similar but took
different, higher-bandwidth plug-ins. You could use
the plug-ins from the
53x, etc if you had a type 81 adpater between the
plug-in and the 'scope.
The above series had plug-in Y preamplifiers, but in
general the
timebased (and X deflection system) was built into
the 'scope. There are
certainly 2 exceptions to that -- the 536 took 2
'normal' plug-ins (one
for each of X and Y -- there was a thing called a
type T which was a
timebase unit) and the 555 has plug-in timebases,
but they're special
modules, not interchangeable with anything else. The
only reason they
were plug-ins was to allow access for repairs,
really.
The 56x were the odd ones. The insturments
(non-rack-mount versions) were
a lot smaller than the other series. The plug-ins
were totally different,
and all 'scopes took plug-ins for X and Y.
> If the brightness control section is still good,
is there any reason not
> to bypass the switch on the back of it, and
just
use an external
> double-pole switch in series with the mains
input? It would at least
give you
a working 'scope...
Thats kinda how I found it when I got it...except used to jumper the switch had obviously gotten
very hot. Since the wire
had been tack soldered across the terminals, one
side seems to have acted
like a fuse. I imagine the power switch was
probably damaged due to the
same problem. Oh, and I found that someone had
installed a much higher
rated fuse in the scope than should have been
installed... Needless to
say, there is something else that needs to be
fixed in the 'scope too :)
Hmm.. Why do idiots persist in over-rating fuses
when they blow???
OK, you've probably got a serious short somewhere in
the PSU section. A
smoothing capacitor if you're lucky, shorted turns
on the transformer if
you're not. Tekky used to claim that these
transformers have a lifetime
warranty, but apparently their definition of
'lifetime' is not the same
as mine -- you will not get a free (or any other)
replacement now :-(.
Do you know if the 561 will require genuine
Tektronix probes like the
newer 60MHz analog Teks I mentioned before?
I wasn't aware _any_ Tektronix 'scopes needed
special probes (apart from
the plug-ins that came with integral probes). On
later 'scopes the probes
will do things like set the on-screen readout, but
that doesn't apply to
the 561.
Provided the probe can match the input impedance of
the 'scope, it will
work fine.
-tony
9 Oct
9 Oct
9:13 p.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
On 07-Oct-2002 Christopher McNabb wrote:
On Mon, Oct 07, 2002 at 01:23:36PM -0400, Bob Shannon
wrote:
I have a 100Kc (kilo-cycle) Heathkit 'scope.
http://pied.nu/leolo-cam/snap-unknown-20011127-213918-1.jpeg (I should get
a better picture up some day)
-Philip
But which type of scope should be used for
Vintage Compters is easy.
A vintage scope of the correct era for the machine when it was
manufactured, of course!
Mine is a Tekronix RM-503. I also have an old RCA scope, plus a Kenwood
Service Monitor scope (SM-220) that can handle 1KW of RF at up to 150
Mhz. 
7 Oct
7 Oct
8:23 a.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
> All LCD scopes are junk compared to a good tube
> scope. > LCDs scopes are a compromise. The
For working on vintage computers, should you use a vintage scope?
Can somebody advise me how much to charge for an NLS (they later became
Kaypro) model 215 (dual trace 15 MHz) portable scope? The batteries are
beyond redemption.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
9:28 a.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
At 10:24 AM 10/7/02 -0700, you wrote:
Is that the little tiny scope that NLS made with the screen that's about 1"
across? I have one and it's usefull for some things such as checking for the presense
of a signal but the screen is too small for a lot of uses. Therefore I wouldn't
recommend it for someone's only or first scope.
You should be able to remove the battteries and replace them without too much trouble.
I replaced the batteries in mine about 15 -18 years ago. Yes, they're still good.
That's why I insist on the Japanese made Sanyo batteries!
Joe
> All LCD
scopes are junk compared to a good tube
> scope. > LCDs scopes are a compromise. The
For working on vintage computers, should you use a vintage scope?
Can somebody advise me how much to charge for an NLS (they later became
Kaypro) model 215 (dual trace 15 MHz) portable scope? The batteries are
beyond redemption.
2:11 p.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
FWIW, I sold this model on eBay last year for $80.00
or thereabouts, with good (replaced) batteries. I
liked it very much and was the original owner. I used
it in field service (just simple stuff) but I don't
move around anymore so I got a Tek 464 (harder to get
parts for than a 465, but really better with analog
storage). The DM44 (meter) option is nice if you don't
have a frequency counter, BTW. It was an option on the
465 also.
There is a Yahoo newsgroup for Tek scope restoration;
they formerly discussed only tube models but now
transistors are OK.
--- Joe <rigdonj(a)cfl.rr.com> wrote:
At 10:24 AM 10/7/02 -0700, you wrote:
vintage scope?
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Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
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> > All LCD scopes are junk compared to a
good
tube
>
scope. > LCDs scopes are a compromise. The
For working on vintage computers, should you use a
Can somebody advise me how much to charge for an
NLS (they later became
Kaypro) model 215 (dual trace 15 MHz) portable
scope? The batteries are
beyond redemption.
Is that the little tiny scope that NLS made with
the screen that's about 1" across? I have one and
it's usefull for some things such as checking for
the presense of a signal but the screen is too small
for a lot of uses. Therefore I wouldn't recommend it
for someone's only or first scope.
You should be able to remove the battteries and
replace them without too much trouble. I replaced
the batteries in mine about 15 -18 years ago. Yes,
they're still good. That's why I insist on the
Japanese made Sanyo batteries!
Joe
10:35 a.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
I haven't seen one of those for years! That was my very first scope... my
Jr. High abutted Nonlinear and I used to go over there and scrounge parts
after school. One of the techs sold me a refurb that wasn't in good enough
condition to send out again for, I think, $50. I'd still have it if it
weren't for a major UPS disaster shipping stuff home from college.
When you work out a price, drop me a line please!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <cisin(a)xenosoft.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 1:24 PM
Subject: RE: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
> All LCD
scopes are junk compared to a good tube
> scope. > LCDs scopes are a compromise. The
For working on vintage computers, should you use a vintage scope?
Can somebody advise me how much to charge for an NLS (they later became
Kaypro) model 215 (dual trace 15 MHz) portable scope? The batteries are
beyond redemption.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
11:37 a.m.
New subject: NLS Scope value (was scope for vintage computers)
On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
> > All LCD scopes are junk compared to a good
tube
> > scope. > LCDs scopes are a compromise. The
From having owned many of both kinds, I still prefer a tiny CRT based
scope to a big LCD - and I do mostly audio and low RF stuff... the Tek
LCD rig is not bad, but when you factor in the 'what it does:what it
costs' relation, then....
For working on vintage computers, should you use a vintage scope?
Many, many old photos of IBM and Univac consoles have the obligatory Tek
545B on a cart, waiting to be Useful. And of course, Tony Duel has
recently converted his 555 to portable use, so he's Ready for Anything.
(He reprotedly uses a household biomass methane generator to fire a
vintage 1898 Eppley 20HP steam engine, leather belted to a vintage 1911
Thompson-Houston DC generator, the output of which is fed to a DC to AC
convertor of his own design, the first in England to use cast-off sodium
vapor streetlamps for the purpose.. all of it controlled by a Perq
on wheels.) [Advance appointments for service calls are recommended]
;}
Meself, I have a couple of 465Bs, an HP rackmount something, and an old
HP 140 mainframe with a Nelson-Ross spectrum analyzer stuck in it. Also,
in the portable area, I found a cute little Tek 213 DMM scope, which is
actually smaller than the NLS machines, and has a cool digital
multi-meter function that displays on the screen in vector numerals. Came
with most of another one (for Partz) and all manuals. Gotta love Ham Swap
Meets.
Can somebody advise me how much to charge for an NLS (they later became
Kaypro) model 215 (dual trace 15 MHz) portable scope? The batteries are
beyond redemption.
I see the 215s in working shape typically in the $75 to 150 range,
depending on degree of pristininity and presence of manuals, probes,
leatherette case, etc.
Two things are 'gotchas' with the NLS scopes: the CRT, and the fact that
they use old CMOS 4016 quad bilateral switch ICs on place of 'real'
switches. If you encounter one that seems to 'light up' but is otherwise
autistic, it almost always can be traced to one or more of the 4016s
dying. They are now made of Unobtanium, and the 'replacement' pinouts and
impedances are different, so a kludge is called for, if original 4016s
can't be scrounged.
For your particular example, I'd offer you $35 and let you talk me up to
45 or 50... if it was otherwise in good-looking shape, and had the case
with it. They're pretty simple units and easy to work on...
Cheers
John
12:01 p.m.
New subject: NLS Scope value (was scope for vintage computers)
they use old CMOS 4016 quad bilateral switch ICs on
place of 'real'
switches. If you encounter one that seems to 'light up' but is otherwise
autistic, it almost always can be traced to one or more of the 4016s
dying. They are now made of Unobtanium, and the 'replacement' pinouts and
impedances are different, so a kludge is called for, if original 4016s
can't be scrounged.
What do you mean? CD4016s are still available from a lot of sources, even
Digi-Key. Is it an odd, non-DIP package?
6:45 p.m.
New subject: NLS Scope value (was scope for vintage computers)
I see the 215s in working shape typically in the $75
to 150 range,
depending on degree of pristininity and presence of manuals, probes,
leatherette case, etc.
Thanks
BTW, they also made single trace models, and ones of other speeds. 215 is
dual trace 15 MHz.
I don't think that I'll get around to swapping batteries; I don't have the
original probes; and I don't have the front of the leather case (it is
fully removable to facilitate losing it).
So, I should probably take it to VCF, so that anybody interested can get a
close look before considering it.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
2:49 p.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
I've gotten lucky, twice, on eBay, paying $200 for a
464 (like a 465 with an analog storage capability). It
had recent (but out of date) calibration from the
Canadian Air Force. It worked for 1.5 years and then a
hi-voltage diode went. Instead of fixing it, I picked
up another, also in good calibration from HP
(really!), and excellent condition on eBay for only
$45.00, with the DM44 option. It was close to cheaper
than fixing it, so now I have spare parts (darned
important, given that most parts are made from
unobtanium). 465's are expensive because they are so
popular. Not everyone knows what a 464 is and no one
searches for it.
If you get a 464/5/etc, make sure it has a front cover
if you plan to use it portably.
I also picked up (locally) a K212 scope cart only
dusty, for only $25.00.
A logic analyzer is also a nice thing to have, I have
a loaded Tek 1230 and a working spare, but that's
another subject....
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3:09 p.m.
New subject: Tek 1230 LA RE: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
At 04:50 PM 10/7/02 -0700, steve wrote:
A logic analyzer is also a nice thing to have, I have
a loaded Tek 1230 and a working spare, but that's
another subject....
Steve, do you know if anyone has tried making copies of the disassebler ROMs for the Tek
1230/124x LAs? I've heard some talk about it but don't know if any one's
actually done it yet.
FYI: I looked through the old HP terminals around here today but none of them had
keyboards. I do know someone that has (had?) a keyboard but I don't know if it's
still around. I'll keep looking.
Joe
3:39 p.m.
New subject: Tek 1230 LA RE: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
Unfortunately, I have the manuals for every single
disassembler probe that unit had, but no disassembler
pods...the only ROM work I've done with it had to do
with making it Y2K compliant (one unit had newer ROM's
than the other). I have one unit with 3 pods, 2
interface boards, the serial and printer boards, and
one bad interface board, and the other, just the main
unit with a pod. I did make my own wire sets, though.
Thanks for looking on the key. I won't use a
not-so-perfect replacement quite yet!
Did you see my hair-raising note on the CRT fix?
--- Joe <rigdonj(a)cfl.rr.com> wrote:
At 04:50 PM 10/7/02 -0700, steve wrote:
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A logic analyzer is also a nice thing to have, I
have
a loaded Tek 1230 and a working spare, but
that's
another subject....
Steve, do you know if anyone has tried making
copies of the disassebler ROMs for the Tek 1230/124x
LAs? I've heard some talk about it but don't know if
any one's actually done it yet.
FYI: I looked through the old HP terminals around
here today but none of them had keyboards. I do know
someone that has (had?) a keyboard but I don't know
if it's still around. I'll keep looking.
Joe
4:18 p.m.
New subject: Tek 1230 LA RE: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
There is a guy in the Czech Republic named Pavel Korensky who has a large
archive of Tek 1240 ROM images, and has built a 'SuperPack' cartridge that
holds a bunch of them at once, plus a large nonvolatile RAM. His email is
pavel.korensky(a)dator3.cz. He has a kind of mini-SIG and email list going.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe" <rigdonj(a)cfl.rr.com>
To: <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 8:12 PM
Subject: Tek 1230 LA RE: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
At 04:50 PM 10/7/02 -0700, steve wrote:
ROMs for
the Tek 1230/124x LAs? I've heard some talk about it but don't know
if any one's actually done it yet.
A logic analyzer is also a nice thing to have, I
have
a loaded Tek 1230 and a working spare, but that's
another subject....
Steve, do you know if anyone has tried making copies of the disassebler
FYI: I looked through the old HP terminals around here today but none
of them
had keyboards. I do know someone that has (had?) a keyboard but I
don't know if it's still around. I'll keep looking.
Joe
9:58 a.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
"Huh? What? My 200Mhz, 2Gs/sec Tek TDS LCD scope works just fine thank
you..."
Yea, and I bet you didn't pay $800 for it, either. I perhaps should have
expounded my distrust/distaste for the LCD scopes to more clearly say
"handheld" scopes. I had a TDS scope at IBM (4 actually), and I dearly
loved those things. They weren't *always* a substitute for a 2465B, but in
most cases they were.
And, ironically, they run Windows 95... I did boot Linux on one much to
the consternation of the Tek guy, tho. Couldn't use it as a scope, but it
really paniced him to see the scope tore open, and a spare drive hanging out
of it. Oh yea, I also added a network card (supported under W95), and was
able to FTP files off to the server to backup images and configurations.
--John
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-admin(a)classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On
Behalf Of steve
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 13:10
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
--- "J.C. Wren" <jcwren(a)jcwren.com> wrote:
All LCD scopes are junk compared to a good tube
scope. > LCDs scopes are a compromise. The
bandwidth is
poor (though adequate for
most 4Mhz systems), and do very poorly on dynamic
signals. They're OK to
capture a single image, but if you want to watch for
jitter in a clock and
such, they're useless.
Huh? What? My 200Mhz, 2Gs/sec Tek TDS LCD scope works
just fine thank you...
steve
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10:43 a.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
--- "J.C. Wren" <jcwren(a)jcwren.com> wrote:
"Huh? What? My 200Mhz, 2Gs/sec Tek TDS LCD
scope
works just fine thank
you..."
Yea, and I bet you didn't pay $800 for it, either.
Correct.
I perhaps should have
expounded my distrust/distaste for the LCD scopes to
more clearly say
"handheld" scopes.
Oh, those things, is that what the original poster was
taking about? I hate all the handhelds, the display
size alone is all the justification you need not to
get one, ...my ideal scope would have about a 5 foot
long display
steve
__________________________________________________
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10:56 a.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
I perhaps
should have
expounded my distrust/distaste for the LCD scopes to
more clearly say
"handheld" scopes.
Oh, those things, is that what the original poster was
taking about? I hate all the handhelds, the display
size alone is all the justification you need not to
get one, ...my ideal scope would have about a 5 foot
long display
steve
11:32 a.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
--- Mike <ipscone(a)msdsite.com> wrote:
Well, since I was the original poster, I have a good
idea what I was
talking about.
I was referring to an LCD scope that was portable
(didn't specify
handheld) that would be suitable for vintage
computer work. The only ones
I have seen to refer to are the newer Tek scopes
that are about 12" wide
and have a 5" (or so) LCD display.
I need something light weight and easily to move
around.
Hi Mike,
Oh, ok, those are nice portable scopes, I did own a
Tek 210, which is the bottom of the line older version
of the type you are referring to and I built and
debugged many a classic computer with it, it did
everything I needed it to do, being very light and
small they are nice to move around too, I recommend
one.
Lecroy makes a similar one, but the Tek's are very
popular in industry and used ones can be found on ebay
for $600 or so. I believe HP makes a larger portable
with a built-in 16 channel logic analyzer, which is
very nice, but out of my price range. A analog scope
will have a better front end for the same price, but I
don't have the patience to use one for any of my
projects (personal preference) and of course they are
much larger.
steve
steve
__________________________________________________
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9:17 a.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
Actually, this is good info. I have limited my choice to LCD simply
because of the size/weight issues. I have an area that I work most of the
time that is not permanently set up. I was hoping to get something to
allow easy tear down and setup.
But, if LCD are junk, maybe I need to rethink that position.
Mike
All LCD scopes are junk compared to a good tube
scope. I understand
that
you're spec'ing a LCD scope, but seriously consider a Tektronix 2445.
This is a four channel 150mhz scope, and they can be had for $400-$500.
A 2465 is an even better choice, with the 2465B being the top of the
line. However, 300mhz is far more than you'll ever use day to day, and
the B, while having some nice features, drives the price up into the
$1000-$1200 range.
You can also find good deals on the P6131 probes for the 2400 series
scopes. These are far more flexible than the after market Scopemaster
probes. I've found new ones on eBay (unopened) for $35 on occasion.
LCDs scopes are a compromise. The bandwidth is poor (though adequate
for
most 4Mhz systems), and do very poorly on dynamic signals. They're OK
to capture a single image, but if you want to watch for jitter in a
clock and such, they're useless.
Again, I acknowledge you've said you wanted a LCD scope, but if this
is to
be a primary instrument, I would recommend a good tube scope instead.
--John
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-admin(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 11:46
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
Ok, I need some advice on what type of scope might be available for
troubleshooting vintage computers.
I have already decided that I need more than is necessary. I want to
limit my choice to a economically priced portable LCD scope. However,
I'm not familar with what is available.
Any good choices?
7:02 p.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Mike wrote:
Actually, this is good info. I have limited my choice
to LCD simply
because of the size/weight issues. I have an area that I work most of
the time that is not permanently set up. I was hoping to get something
to allow easy tear down and setup.
The late generation analogs really don't weigh that much, so those might
work out well for you. The older/larger scopes were commonly mounted in
racks or were used on carts if they were to be moved much. Make sure the
scope comes with probes, or that they are readily available.
I picked up several Tektronix 2216 scopes quite some time ago, but later
found out the special probes it requires are not commonly available. The
2216 is nice in that it does not weigh very much, but still has plenty of
features for a 60MHz analog. (I did finally manage to locate some genuine
Tek probes, so hopefully soon I'll have those scopes working.)
-Toth
13 Oct
13 Oct
3:40 p.m.
New subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting
Hi, Mike,
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
On 07-Oct-02 at 08:45 Mike wrote:
Ok, I need some advice on what type of scope might be
available for
troubleshooting vintage computers.
I have already decided that I need more than is necessary. I want to
limit my choice to a economically priced portable LCD scope. However, I'm
not familar with what is available.
Any good choices?
If it doesn't say 'Tektronix' on it, my opinion is that it's not worth
bothering with. For the sake of both performance and 'classic' appeal, I would see
about getting hold of one of the all-time favorites of former DEC field service engineers:
The Tektronix 465, 475, or 475A, with the DM44 multimeter option if you can find it.
I see all of the above come up on E-pay frequently enough, and I also see them at ham
swaps.
Good hunting.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy,
Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com
ARS KC7GR (Formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77 -- kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com
"I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior
to what I have now..." (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk)
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