29 Oct
2001
29 Oct
'01
5:52 p.m.
On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Jeffrey Sharp wrote:
I think that what is needed most is an international
organization that
covers *all* vintage computers, software, and docs. We need something
that's implemented well enough that most of us would be convinced to join.
The best starting point I can think of is Sellam's VCF organization:
* He already has one of the largest inventories of us all. That's a good
start towards a "Noah's ark" collection, which I think should be one
function of the organization.
This is in fact one of my missions. I know I won't be able to get every
single model of every single computer, but I can get close. And this has
applications of both practicality and posterity.
* He's got www.vintage.org, which would be a primo
domain name for the
organization.
* He's got www.vintagetech.com, which would be the fundraising part of the
organization. Dues could be another.
Um, for now, the funds that VintageTech generates are intended for the
Sellam Ismail organization of getting by ;)
* He's got experience running VCFs.
True dat.
Of course, Sellam would have to be interested in being
the organization's
fearless leader!
I appreciate being nominated for this lofty organization. In fact, what
you've described is what I've been working towards for the past 4-5 years.
It's just gone much slower and taken much longer than anticipated due to
distractions and detours in my life. And this is hard work, especially
for one guy.
Other things the organiztion could do:
* A central, Yahoo-like web site that would become the world's foremost
resource for vintage computer information. It would try to replicate
all available information for preservation. Individual members would
also be given a mechanism to have their collection hosted on the site
under a uniform interface. Those who resist assimilation could still
have their sites linked to. You could get to info either by
collector name or a category/manufacturer/series/model tree. It would
be wonderful...
One day the VCF website will be this portal.
* SIGs would, of course, solidify according to demand.
I imagine the VAX
SIG (VSIG?) would be quite well represented. Each SIG could have its
own mailing list. The whole thing would be not unlike the FreeBSD
mailing list system.
One of the next things on the agenda (after finishing the VCF Marketplace)
is a messaging system. Of course, I don't know how useful this will be in
the face of this list and other very active and strong lists. I'll put
the tools out there, it'll be up to folks to put them to good use.
* Rename itself from VCF to IVCA. "International
Vintage Computing
Association" to outsiders, "International Vintage Computing Asylum"
for insiders. :-)
The VCF will eventually become an international "society" dedicated to the
preservation of old computers and computer history. The VCF events are to
be yearly gatherings that cap off activities that occur throughout the
year. My desire for the past couple years has been to sponsor local
computer collector clubs throughout the world, to create local interest
that then grows into a connected network of clubs.
* I don't know... other stuff.
As you can see, I'm all about grandiose ideas. Now won't someone rise up
and implement them? :-)
Me too. If I could get organized enough to create an actual organization
then things would move faster. Of course it would require the sacrifices
of other people interested in seeing this vision implemented.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
30 Oct
30 Oct
2:40 p.m.
O.K. as I said in the beginning I really don't like organizational
issues. That's why I'm getting nervous about the goals here.
I do agree that Sellam's thing is perhaps the best point to
start. However, ...
We certainly don't need another mailing list. With port-vax
and classiccmp (and occasionally comp.os.vms) we have what we
need. Certainly we don't need a new style online forum ...
those are notoriously non-populated.
I also don't have a sophisticated portal web site in mind.
Something simple that states the mission of the organization,
a few articles about why preserving classic computing
equipment is good. Something that plays down the collectible
asset value (that's important in many respects!). And most
important a list of people and their collections and activities
all over the country and the world. Linking to their project
web sites.
The web site must be simple so it's maintainable. vintage.org
is fairly simple, but even so some links and features on the
front page don't work, and that shouldn't be. Rather have
less stuff that does the job.
About local chapters and national meetings etc. I'm sceptical
too. It couldn't hurt for some of us weirdos to come out and
have some face to face interaction with real humans, OTOH, this
takes even more time away for those who are already struggling
having a family life and their collection (aside from making
a living.) We don't want to steal people from their spouses and
kids.
I guess that Isildur is right, the non-profit incorporation would
be most critical. This would actually provide incentives for folks
who have stuff to decommission. Instead of competing against
scrap dealers we would have an advantage of a tax deduction for
old stuff. That's also why I think we must downplay the
collectible asset value. This should be for the fun and curiosity
and public service of preservation, and, if possible, public use
of the old stuff. It should not be to promote a new fad of
collectible items in order to boost a market, issue price guides,
promote pocket book driven collections. The PDP-8 market is
already going that way.
BTW: that's also why I appreciate a clear cut between the
vintage.org and the vintagetech.com things. I wouldn't ask
Sellam to move any money from his business to the association
but the appearence of a for-profit business next to VCF
should not be confounding the non-profit nature of the
association either.
In terms of the need for funds, I'm mostly interested in
a "dachorganization" that would make it possible to put
old computers into public use. Help those that do. If you
run a cluster of VAX 11/780, 8600, and couple of 6000s with
full gear, this makes no sense for the privatier to do
24/7 in terms of electricity. Add the costs of a decent
Internet connection too. If you want to show blinkenlights
(like the cyber PDP-8) you need an even better Internet
connection.
The whole point of mainframes is multi-user applications, so
it's only natural that the 11/780 wants to serve users
through the network. One way of doing this would be a
"vintage-pass" available to the public for a
fee and for members at a discount. The vintage-pass would
give people accounts on the systems of all members. This
could have multiple levels, like dec-pass, vax-pass, pdp-pass,
ibm-pass, etc. It would include various levels of service,
such as guest-account, individual-user account, up to
sysadmin-account. Optional operator services (Joe Jones
mails his old PDP-11 tapes to bring his old work back
to life, etc.) You (or your wife or kids) put the tape in
and go.
There would be some ethics and legal issues involved. On
the one hand rules of conduct by the users, monitoring
malicious activity (e.g., cool things like the killer-
poke on the PET 2001) to a revival of the worm of 1988.
Certainly special scrutiny applies for operator or sysadmin
accounts. On the other hand the privacy of the user and
his data.
This is kind of the space I was thinking about.
Organizing cyber events, video-conferences, a worm of 1988
revival fest, could be periodic highlights that warrant
press releases and may draw attention. Perhaps more than
an annual meeting that people won't usually attend anyway.
regards
-Gunther
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Jeffrey Sharp wrote:
--
Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow(a)regenstrief.org
Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care
Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine
tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org
I think that what is needed most is an
international organization that
covers *all* vintage computers, software, and docs. We need something
that's implemented well enough that most of us would be convinced to join.
The best starting point I can think of is Sellam's VCF organization:
* He already has one of the largest inventories of us all. That's a good
start towards a "Noah's ark" collection, which I think should be one
function of the organization.
This is in fact one of my missions. I know I won't be able to get every
single model of every single computer, but I can get close. And this has
applications of both practicality and posterity.
* He's got www.vintage.org, which would be a
primo domain name for the
organization.
* He's got www.vintagetech.com, which would be the fundraising part of the
organization. Dues could be another.
Um, for now, the funds that VintageTech generates are intended for the
Sellam Ismail organization of getting by ;)
* He's got experience running VCFs.
True dat.
Of course, Sellam would have to be interested in
being the organization's
fearless leader!
I appreciate being nominated for this lofty organization. In fact, what
you've described is what I've been working towards for the past 4-5 years.
It's just gone much slower and taken much longer than anticipated due to
distractions and detours in my life. And this is hard work, especially
for one guy.
Other things the organiztion could do:
* A central, Yahoo-like web site that would become the world's foremost
resource for vintage computer information. It would try to replicate
all available information for preservation. Individual members would
also be given a mechanism to have their collection hosted on the site
under a uniform interface. Those who resist assimilation could still
have their sites linked to. You could get to info either by
collector name or a category/manufacturer/series/model tree. It would
be wonderful...
One day the VCF website will be this portal.
* SIGs would, of course, solidify according to
demand. I imagine the VAX
SIG (VSIG?) would be quite well represented. Each SIG could have its
own mailing list. The whole thing would be not unlike the FreeBSD
mailing list system.
One of the next things on the agenda (after finishing the VCF Marketplace)
is a messaging system. Of course, I don't know how useful this will be in
the face of this list and other very active and strong lists. I'll put
the tools out there, it'll be up to folks to put them to good use.
* Rename itself from VCF to IVCA.
"International Vintage Computing
Association" to outsiders, "International Vintage Computing Asylum"
for insiders. :-)
The VCF will eventually become an international "society" dedicated to the
preservation of old computers and computer history. The VCF events are to
be yearly gatherings that cap off activities that occur throughout the
year. My desire for the past couple years has been to sponsor local
computer collector clubs throughout the world, to create local interest
that then grows into a connected network of clubs.
* I don't know... other stuff.
As you can see, I'm all about grandiose ideas. Now won't someone rise up
and implement them? :-)
Me too. If I could get organized enough to create an actual organization
then things would move faster. Of course it would require the sacrifices
of other people interested in seeing this vision implemented.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
4:27 p.m.
New subject: Ecomstation.org (was Re: An Organization (was: Do we have a VAX organization?))
Check out http://www.ecomstation.org as an example of a website supporting
an operating system on an architecture. I was pretty impressed (but then
I'm an OS/2 user) :-)
Regards,
Jeff
In <3BDF80A1.4070900(a)aurora.regenstrief.org>rg>, on 10/30/01
at 11:40 PM, Gunther Schadow <gunther(a)aurora.regenstrief.org> said:
every
organization's
what
VAX
Marketplace)
organization
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
Asheville, NC USA
828-6984887
UberTechnoid(a)Home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
O.K. as I said in the beginning I really don't like
organizational
issues. That's why I'm getting nervous about the goals here.
I do agree that Sellam's thing is perhaps the best
point to
start. However, ...
We certainly don't need another mailing list. With
port-vax
and classiccmp (and occasionally comp.os.vms) we have what we need.
Certainly we don't need a new style online forum ... those are
notoriously non-populated.
I also don't have a sophisticated portal web site
in mind.
Something simple that states the mission of the organization, a few
articles about why preserving classic computing
equipment is good. Something that plays down the collectible asset value
(that's important in many respects!). And most
important a list of people and their collections and activities all over
the country and the world. Linking to their project web sites.
The web site must be simple so it's maintainable.
vintage.org is fairly
simple, but even so some links and features on the front page don't work,
and that shouldn't be. Rather have
less stuff that does the job.
About local chapters and national meetings etc. I'm
sceptical too. It
couldn't hurt for some of us weirdos to come out and have some face to
face interaction with real humans, OTOH, this takes even more time away
for those who are already struggling having a family life and their
collection (aside from making a living.) We don't want to steal people
from their spouses and kids.
I guess that Isildur is right, the non-profit
incorporation would be most
critical. This would actually provide incentives for folks who have stuff
to decommission. Instead of competing against scrap dealers we would have
an advantage of a tax deduction for old stuff. That's also why I think we
must downplay the
collectible asset value. This should be for the fun and curiosity and
public service of preservation, and, if possible, public use of the old
stuff. It should not be to promote a new fad of collectible items in
order to boost a market, issue price guides, promote pocket book driven
collections. The PDP-8 market is already going that way.
BTW: that's also why I appreciate a clear cut
between the
vintage.org and the vintagetech.com things. I wouldn't ask
Sellam to move any money from his business to the association but the
appearence of a for-profit business next to VCF
should not be confounding the non-profit nature of the
association either.
In terms of the need for funds, I'm mostly
interested in
a "dachorganization" that would make it possible to put
old computers into public use. Help those that do. If you
run a cluster of VAX 11/780, 8600, and couple of 6000s with
full gear, this makes no sense for the privatier to do
24/7 in terms of electricity. Add the costs of a decent
Internet connection too. If you want to show blinkenlights
(like the cyber PDP-8) you need an even better Internet
connection.
The whole point of mainframes is multi-user
applications, so it's only
natural that the 11/780 wants to serve users
through the network. One way of doing this would be a
"vintage-pass" available to the public for a
fee and for members at a discount. The vintage-pass would
give people accounts on the systems of all members. This
could have multiple levels, like dec-pass, vax-pass, pdp-pass, ibm-pass,
etc. It would include various levels of service,
such as guest-account, individual-user account, up to
sysadmin-account. Optional operator services (Joe Jones
mails his old PDP-11 tapes to bring his old work back
to life, etc.) You (or your wife or kids) put the tape in
and go.
There would be some ethics and legal issues involved.
On
the one hand rules of conduct by the users, monitoring
malicious activity (e.g., cool things like the killer-
poke on the PET 2001) to a revival of the worm of 1988.
Certainly special scrutiny applies for operator or sysadmin
accounts. On the other hand the privacy of the user and
his data.
This is kind of the space I was thinking about.
Organizing cyber events, video-conferences, a worm of
1988
revival fest, could be periodic highlights that warrant
press releases and may draw attention. Perhaps more than
an annual meeting that people won't usually attend anyway.
regards
-Gunther
Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
On Mon, 29 Oct
2001, Jeffrey Sharp wrote:
>I think that what is needed most is an international organization that
>covers *all* vintage computers, software, and docs. We need something
>that's implemented well enough that most of us would be convinced to
join.
>The best starting point I can think of is
Sellam's VCF organization:
>
>* He already has one of the largest inventories of us all. That's a
good
start
towards a "Noah's ark" collection, which I think should be one
function of the organization.
This is in fact one of my missions. I know I won't be able to get single model of every single computer, but I can
get close. And this
has
applications of both practicality and posterity.
>* He's got www.vintage.org, which would be a primo domain name for the
> organization.
>
>* He's got www.vintagetech.com, which would be the fundraising part of
the
organization. Dues could be another.
Um, for now, the funds that VintageTech generates are intended for the
Sellam Ismail organization of getting by ;)
* He's got experience running VCFs.
True dat.
>Of course, Sellam would have to be interested in being the fearless
leader!
I appreciate being nominated for this lofty organization. In fact, you've described is what I've been
working towards for the past 4-5
years.
It's just gone much slower and taken much
longer than anticipated due
to
distractions and detours in my life. And this is
hard work,
especially
for one guy.
>Other things the organiztion could do:
>
>* A central, Yahoo-like web site that would become the world's
foremost
> resource for vintage computer information.
It would try to
replicate
> all available information for preservation.
Individual members
would
> also be given a mechanism to have their
collection hosted on the
site
> under a uniform interface. Those who resist
assimilation could
still
> have their sites linked to. You could get
to info either by
> collector name or a category/manufacturer/series/model tree. It
would
be
wonderful...
One day the VCF website will be this portal.
>* SIGs would, of course, solidify according to demand. I imagine the > SIG (VSIG?) would be quite well represented.
Each SIG could have
its
own
mailing list. The whole thing would be not unlike the FreeBSD
mailing list system.
One of the next things on the agenda (after finishing the VCF is a messaging system. Of course, I don't
know how useful this will
be in
the face of this list and other very active and
strong lists. I'll
put
the tools out there, it'll be up to folks to
put them to good use.
the
* Rename itself from VCF to IVCA.
"International Vintage Computing
Association" to outsiders, "International Vintage Computing Asylum"
for insiders. :-)
The VCF will eventually become an international "society" dedicated to
preservation of old computers and computer
history. The VCF events
are to
be yearly gatherings that cap off activities that
occur throughout the
year. My desire for the past couple years has been to sponsor local
computer collector clubs throughout the world, to create local
interest
that then grows into a connected network of
clubs.
>* I don't know... other stuff.
>
>As you can see, I'm all about grandiose ideas. Now won't someone rise
up
and
implement them? :-)
Me too. If I could get organized enough to create an actual then things would move faster. Of course it
would require the
sacrifices
of other people interested in seeing this vision
implemented.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
Festival
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
> 
31 Oct
31 Oct
10:37 a.m.
New subject: Ecomstation.org (was Re: An Organization (was: Do we have a VAX organization?))
UberTechnoid skrev:
Check out http://www.ecomstation.org as an example of a
website supporting
an operating system on an architecture. I was pretty impressed (but then
I'm an OS/2 user) :-)
[BIG snip!]
Jeff, and the other participants in the list, is it really necessary to quote
250 lines to add three of your own? And on the top, at that.
BTW, a similar site is amiga.tm.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
4:11 p.m.
New subject: Ecomstation.org (was Re: An Organization (was: Do we have a VAX organization?))
On 1 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote:
Jeff, and the other participants in the list, is it
really necessary to quote
250 lines to add three of your own? And on the top, at that.
Uh, have you ever *read* any of my messages? I pay *particular* attention
to quoting only what is needed to establish context, and I put my reply
*below* the quoted text. What have you been smoking, man?
This flame war has been done before. I'm only participating here because
I was individually lambasted. Methinks IHBT...
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
4:32 p.m.
New subject: Ecomstation.org (was Re: An Organization (was: Do we have a VAX organization?))
The "when from recipient transfer to trash" filter works well in this type
of case if your mailer can handle it, but I still haven't figured out how
to tell Eudora to capture all the messages in a thread started by a
particular email address and delete them. If anyone has a suggestion on how
to do that it would be helpful.
--Chuck
At 12:11 AM 11/1/01 -0600, Jeff Sharp wrote:
This flame war has been done before. I'm only
participating here because
I was individually lambasted. Methinks IHBT...
2 Nov
2 Nov
7:18 a.m.
New subject: Ecomstation.org (was Re: An Organization (was: Do we have a VAXorganization?))
Jeffrey S. Sharp skrev:
On 1 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote:
> Jeff, and the other participants in the list, is
it really necessary to
> quote
> 250 lines to add three of your own? And on the top, at that.
Uh, have you ever *read* any of my messages? I pay
*particular* attention
to quoting only what is needed to establish context, and I put my reply
*below* the quoted text. What have you been smoking, man?
I snipped the specific message, since quoting it all over again would have
been cruel. I could look it up for you if you like, though.
The only possible explanation for your claim that you put your text below the
quoted message would be that you're standing on your head. =)
This flame war has been done before. I'm only
participating here because
I was individually lambasted. Methinks IHBT...
IHBT?
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
"It's better to have loved and lost, than to be gang raped in a Turkish
prison."
30 Oct
30 Oct
5:26 p.m.
On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote:
We certainly don't need another mailing list. With
port-vax and
classiccmp (and occasionally comp.os.vms) we have what we need.
Certainly we don't need a new style online forum ... those are
notoriously non-populated.
I would agree. However, the online forums would become repositories for
information, in much the same way that the CC archives are repositories.
I also don't have a sophisticated portal web site
in mind. Something
simple that states the mission of the organization, a few articles
about why preserving classic computing equipment is good. Something
that plays down the collectible asset value (that's important in many
respects!). And most important a list of people and their collections
and activities all over the country and the world. Linking to their
project web sites.
The VCF website is already like this to some extent.
The web site must be simple so it's maintainable.
vintage.org is
fairly simple, but even so some links and features on the front page
don't work, and that shouldn't be. Rather have less stuff that does
the job.
Aside from the language options, which features do you refer to? (I found
the problem with the "NEW" link ;)
About local chapters and national meetings etc.
I'm sceptical too. It
couldn't hurt for some of us weirdos to come out and have some face to
face interaction with real humans, OTOH, this takes even more time
away for those who are already struggling having a family life and
their collection (aside from making a living.) We don't want to steal
people from their spouses and kids.
I envision meetings being held monthly. It would depend on the organizer
of the local club. I can't imagine the club keeping dads or moms from
feeding their kids and giving them the nurturing love that they need to
grow up to be productive and non-threatening members of society. Hell,
bring the kids to the meetings...start them off early with an
appreciation for old tech.
I guess that Isildur is right, the non-profit
incorporation would be
most critical. This would actually provide incentives for folks who
have stuff to decommission. Instead of competing against scrap dealers
we would have an advantage of a tax deduction for old stuff. That's
also why I think we must downplay the collectible asset value. This
I don't like non-profits. Too much overhead and formality required. It
has its benefits, but I prefer the philanthropic approach.
BTW: that's also why I appreciate a clear cut
between the vintage.org
and the vintagetech.com things. I wouldn't ask Sellam to move any
money from his business to the association but the appearence of a
for-profit business next to VCF should not be confounding the
non-profit nature of the association either.
I agree. VintageTech utilizes the VCF Archive for profit gaining motives.
That profit goes towards, among other things, funding the VCF enterprise.
In terms of the need for funds, I'm mostly
interested in a
"dachorganization" that would make it possible to put old computers
into public use. Help those that do. If you run a cluster of VAX
11/780, 8600, and couple of 6000s with full gear, this makes no sense
for the privatier to do 24/7 in terms of electricity. Add the costs of
a decent Internet connection too. If you want to show blinkenlights
(like the cyber PDP-8) you need an even better Internet connection.
Yes, but where do you set up such a playhouse? If everyone is to enjoy
this experience, multiple old computer funhouses would have to be setup
throughout the world.
The whole point of mainframes is multi-user
applications, so it's only
natural that the 11/780 wants to serve users through the network. One
way of doing this would be a "vintage-pass" available to the public
for a fee and for members at a discount. The vintage-pass would give
people accounts on the systems of all members. This could have
multiple levels, like dec-pass, vax-pass, pdp-pass, ibm-pass, etc. It
would include various levels of service, such as guest-account,
individual-user account, up to sysadmin-account. Optional operator
services (Joe Jones mails his old PDP-11 tapes to bring his old work
back to life, etc.) You (or your wife or kids) put the tape in and go.
Aside from the practicality issues and the management of such a network, I
like the idea.
Organizing cyber events, video-conferences, a worm of
1988 revival
fest, could be periodic highlights that warrant press releases and may
draw attention. Perhaps more than an annual meeting that people won't
usually attend anyway.
Any sort of mainstream interest in such an organization is years away. I
was expecting VCF to be big by 5.0. Guess what? I was disappointed. I'm
figuring it MIGHT be a large event by 10.0. But will I even still be
interested in this crap five years from now?
Ask me again in five years... ;)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
8219
days inactive
8222
days old
7 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
gunther＠aurora.regenstrief.org -
jss＠subatomix.com -
optimus＠canit.se -
UberTechnoid＠home.com -
vcf＠vintage.org