7 Feb
2015
7 Feb
'15
1:46 p.m.
Hi,
Man. I'm becoming concerned that I can't fit any of the significant
features that I want in my 11/45 without making uncomfortable sacrifices.
The first 25 slots are for an initial "unibus a" terminator, cpu,
floating point and memory, which, since I only have one bipolar matrix, is
an enormous waste of like ten slots (they're wired for weird voltage and
would presumably explode other boards installed there, right?).
So then there are three slots available at the end, 26, 27, 28 that are
also marked "non-standard voltage." I guess that means that putting normal
boards in there is right out, too. Anyway, the unibus out and bridge 9200
jumper that connects unibus a and unibus b are supposed to go there.
That's it for the main backplane.
The next three small backplanes are core. They take up the rest of the
chassis. I don't want to give up my core because core is cool, right?
So this means I've nowhere to put the hex boards I need to run.
I need to install more memory (planning to use MS11 (124KW M7891)),
ethernet, some sort of hex height SMD disk controller (SC21,etc.), possibly
an RL11, and a DZ11. That's at least four, maybe six hex-height boards I
need to accommodate.
I'm going to duck after asking this, but would it be at all feasible to
rewire the main 11/45 backplane to get rid of the weird voltages in those
bipolar slots so they'd accommodate normal boards like these?
Short of that, what can I do? I definitely don't want another chassis.
I guess I have to sacrifice my core to make way for a second "normal"
dd11-type backplane to house the modules I need to run. So sad.
<duck>
jake
7 Feb
7 Feb
1:53 p.m.
The first 25 slots are for an initial "unibus a" terminator, cpu,
floating point and memory, which, since I only have one bipolar matrix, is
an enormous waste of like ten slots (they're wired for weird voltage and
would presumably explode other boards installed there, right?).
Yes, AFAIK those memory slots are custom-wired so don't use them for
anything else.
So then there are three slots available at the end,
26, 27, 28 that are
also marked "non-standard voltage." I guess that means that putting normal
boards in there is right out, too. Anyway, the unibus out and bridge 9200
jumper that connects unibus a and unibus b are supposed to go there.
That's it for the main backplane.
You can put 3 quad-height SPC boards in there, if you don't then you have
to fit grant continuity cards. It's traditional to put the console DL11 there.
I'm going to duck after asking this, but would
it be at all feasible to
rewire the main 11/45 backplane to get rid of the weird voltages in those
bipolar slots so they'd accommodate normal boards like these?
I am sure it's _possible_ but I wouldn't do it. The 11/45 is rare enough
as it is, I wouldn't make a permanent change to the CPU backplane. And
be warned it may not be an easy change, there's a PCB under all that wire-
wrap that carried power and ground at least. If you have to change any of
that it is a _very_ big job.
Short of that, what can I do? I definitely
don't want another chassis.
Any reason not to have a 5.25" or 10.5" expansion box. From what I recall it is
possible to drop the CPU and PSUs by 5.25" fairly easily so you should be able
to make room for the former.
-tony
4:12 p.m.
Again, I agree with Tony. I would not hack up the cpu backplane,and put in
a BA11-KE above the 45. Assuming you have it in a H960, 6 feet tall
cabinet, I would mount it 10 1/2 above the 45 for convenience and air flow.
That should give you all the room you'll ever need.
On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 12:53 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
The first 25 slots are for an initial "unibus a" terminator, cpu,
floating point and memory, which, since I only have one bipolar matrix,
is
an enormous waste of like ten slots (they're
wired for weird voltage and
would presumably explode other boards installed there, right?).
Yes, AFAIK those memory slots are custom-wired so don't use them for
anything else.
So then there are three slots available at the
end, 26, 27, 28 that are
also marked "non-standard voltage." I guess that means that putting
normal
boards in there is right out, too. Anyway, the
unibus out and bridge
9200
jumper that connects unibus a and unibus b are
supposed to go there.
That's it for the main backplane.
You can put 3 quad-height SPC boards in there, if you don't then you have
to fit grant continuity cards. It's traditional to put the console DL11
there.
I'm going to duck after asking this, but
would it be at all feasible to
rewire the main 11/45 backplane to get rid of the weird voltages in those
bipolar slots so they'd accommodate normal boards like these?
I am sure it's _possible_ but I wouldn't do it. The 11/45 is rare enough
as it is, I wouldn't make a permanent change to the CPU backplane. And
be warned it may not be an easy change, there's a PCB under all that wire-
wrap that carried power and ground at least. If you have to change any of
that it is a _very_ big job.
Short of that, what can I do? I definitely
don't want another chassis.
Any reason not to have a 5.25" or 10.5" expansion box. From what I recall
it is
possible to drop the CPU and PSUs by 5.25" fairly easily so you should be
able
to make room for the former.
-tony
7:04 p.m.
OK, thanks. It seemed like too wild an idea but I thought I'd at least
ask. Would've been cool if it was engineered to allow one to simply change
power harnesses and regulators and have a normal backplane, but I get that
that's not the case. Not I understand why every 11/45 picture I've seen
includes a second chassis!
This MOS / Bipolar section of the backplane is definitely not compatible
with M7891, correct?
thx
jake
On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 4:12 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
Again, I agree with Tony. I would not hack up the cpu
backplane,and put in
a BA11-KE above the 45. Assuming you have it in a H960, 6 feet tall
cabinet, I would mount it 10 1/2 above the 45 for convenience and air
flow.
That should give you all the room you'll ever need.
On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 12:53 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
and
are
to
wire-
The first 25 slots are for an initial "unibus a" terminator, cpu,
floating point and memory, which, since I only have one bipolar matrix,
is
> an enormous waste of like ten slots (they're wired for weird voltage would
presumably explode other boards installed there, right?).
Yes, AFAIK those memory slots are custom-wired so don't use them for
anything else.
> So then there are three slots available at the end, 26, 27, 28 that also
marked "non-standard voltage." I guess that means that putting
normal
boards in there is right out, too. Anyway, the
unibus out and bridge
9200
jumper that connects unibus a and unibus b are
supposed to go there.
That's it for the main backplane.
You can put 3 quad-height SPC boards in there, if you don't then you have
to fit grant continuity cards. It's traditional to put the console DL11
there.
> I'm going to duck after asking this, but would it be at all feasible > rewire the main 11/45 backplane to get rid
of the weird voltages in
those
bipolar
slots so they'd accommodate normal boards like these?
I am sure it's _possible_ but I wouldn't do it. The 11/45 is rare enough
as it is, I wouldn't make a permanent change to the CPU backplane. And
be warned it may not be an easy change, there's a PCB under all that wrap that carried power and ground at least. If
you have to change any of
that it is a _very_ big job.
> Short of that, what can I do? I definitely don't want another
chassis.
Any reason not to have a 5.25" or 10.5" expansion box. From what I recall
it is
possible to drop the CPU and PSUs by 5.25" fairly easily so you should be
able
to make room for the former.
-tony
8 Feb
8 Feb
12:46 a.m.
I'm pretty sure it's not.
Do you only have one G401? strange...
On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
wrote:
OK, thanks. It seemed like too wild an idea but I
thought I'd at least
ask. Would've been cool if it was engineered to allow one to simply change
power harnesses and regulators and have a normal backplane, but I get that
that's not the case. Not I understand why every 11/45 picture I've seen
includes a second chassis!
This MOS / Bipolar section of the backplane is definitely not compatible
with M7891, correct?
thx
jake
On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 4:12 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
are
> > also marked "non-standard voltage." I guess that means that putting
> normal
> > boards in there is right out, too. Anyway, the unibus out and bridge
> 9200
> > jumper that connects unibus a and unibus b are supposed to go there.
> > That's it for the main backplane.
>
> You can put 3 quad-height SPC boards in there, if you don't then you
have
of
recall
Again, I agree with Tony. I would not hack up the
cpu backplane,and put
in
a BA11-KE above the 45. Assuming you have it in a
H960, 6 feet tall
cabinet, I would mount it 10 1/2 above the 45 for convenience and air
flow.
That should give you all the room you'll ever need.
On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 12:53 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
> >
> > The first 25 slots are for an initial "unibus a" terminator, cpu,
> > floating point and memory, which, since I only have one bipolar
matrix,
is
> an enormous waste of like ten slots (they're wired for weird voltage
and
would
presumably explode other boards installed there, right?).
Yes, AFAIK those memory slots are custom-wired so don't use them for
anything else.
> So then there are three slots available at the end, 26, 27, 28 that > to fit grant continuity cards. It's
traditional to put the console DL11
> there.
>
> > I'm going to duck after asking this, but would it be at all
feasible
to
enough
> rewire the main 11/45 backplane to get rid
of the weird voltages in
those
> > bipolar slots so they'd accommodate normal boards like these?
>
> I am sure it's _possible_ but I wouldn't do it. The 11/45 is rare as it is,
I wouldn't make a permanent change to the CPU backplane. And
be warned it may not be an easy change, there's a PCB under all that
wire-
> wrap that carried power and ground at least. If you have to change any that it
is a _very_ big job.
> Short of that, what can I do? I definitely don't want another
chassis.
>
> Any reason not to have a 5.25" or 10.5" expansion box. From what I > it is
> possible to drop the CPU and PSUs by 5.25" fairly easily so you should
be
able
to make room for the former.
-tony
12:50 a.m.
I wouldn't worry about memory yet. Shorten the bus( move the terminator) to
just one memory backplane, and take out anything you don't have to have to
run xxdp. once it's running, add one option at a time and retest the system.
It takes longer, but can be better in the end.
Paul
On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 11:46 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's not.
Do you only have one G401? strange...
On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 6:04 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
wrote:
OK, thanks. It seemed like too wild an idea but
I thought I'd at least
ask. Would've been cool if it was engineered to allow one to simply
change
power harnesses and regulators and have a normal backplane, but I get that
that's not the case. Not I understand why every 11/45 picture I've seen
includes a second chassis!
This MOS / Bipolar section of the backplane is definitely not compatible
with M7891, correct?
thx
jake
On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 4:12 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
that
any of
recall
Again, I agree with Tony. I would not hack up the
cpu backplane,and put
in
a BA11-KE above the 45. Assuming you have it in a
H960, 6 feet tall
cabinet, I would mount it 10 1/2 above the 45 for convenience and air
flow.
That should give you all the room you'll ever need.
On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 12:53 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
> >
> > The first 25 slots are for an initial "unibus a" terminator, cpu,
> > floating point and memory, which, since I only have one bipolar
matrix,
is
> an enormous waste of like ten slots (they're wired for weird voltage
and
> > would presumably explode other boards installed there, right?).
>
> Yes, AFAIK those memory slots are custom-wired so don't use them for
> anything else.
>
> > So then there are three slots available at the end, 26, 27, 28 are
> > also marked "non-standard voltage." I guess that means that putting
> normal
> > boards in there is right out, too. Anyway, the unibus out and
bridge
> 9200
> > jumper that connects unibus a and unibus b are supposed to go there.
> > That's it for the main backplane.
>
> You can put 3 quad-height SPC boards in there, if you don't then you
have
> to fit grant continuity cards. It's
traditional to put the console
DL11
> there.
>
> > I'm going to duck after asking this, but would it be at all
feasible
to
enough
> rewire the main 11/45 backplane to get rid
of the weird voltages in
those
> > bipolar slots so they'd accommodate normal boards like these?
>
> I am sure it's _possible_ but I wouldn't do it. The 11/45 is rare as it is,
I wouldn't make a permanent change to the CPU backplane. And
be warned it may not be an easy change, there's a PCB under all that
wire-
> wrap that carried power and ground at least. If you have to change that it
is a _very_ big job.
> Short of that, what can I do? I definitely don't want another
chassis.
>
> Any reason not to have a 5.25" or 10.5" expansion box. From what I > it is
> possible to drop the CPU and PSUs by 5.25" fairly easily so you
should
be
able
to make room for the former.
-tony
1:42 a.m.
On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:50 AM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
I wouldn't worry about memory yet. Shorten the
bus( move the terminator) to
just one memory backplane, and take out anything you don't have to have to
run xxdp. once it's running, add one option at a time and retest the
system.
It takes longer, but can be better in the end.
Exactly -- once I have the power squared away.
thx
jake
1:41 a.m.
On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:46 AM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's not.
Do you only have one G401? strange...
no, no, I have currently one mos/bipolar controller running one bipolar
memory board on the main 11/45 backplane. Sexy but expensive and not
nearly enough to get stuff done in unix. Then I have three 4KW core sets,
each on its own backplane with controller. Very neat but very
space-consuming!
I've decided that I'm probably going to remove the bipolar and core and
replace it with a plain old 124KW M7891 MS11. Freeing up that space the
core is currently taking will allow me to install a plain dd11 backplane
for the other features I need. Things like SMD big disk controller,
ethernet, dz11 terminal board, 124KW memory, etc. without having to go to
aother cabinet. These all require MUD/SPC slots and I have *none*
currently. So the core goes. So sad. I have a number of other pdp11s, so
it'll find a good use. Unless someone out there wants to do a little
horse-trading!.
But anyway, I'm getting waay ahead of myself here because I haven't even
been through the power yet. Boards are all out and I'm enlisting the help
of my ee buddies to try to repair my H745s on Monday, so I'll play with the
good old 11/34 until then!
Thanks for the interest & comments!
--jake
4:16 a.m.
Hi Jake,
The 3 core sets, accordind to your earlier post are the G110, G231, and
H214. these are 8kw each. Maybe the Monilithic will work and that might max
you out.
Think of the bipolar as very fast extra memory. It can sort of act like a
cache memory, and can help with processor throughput. I thought there were
2 controller boards and 4 G401s, but one is better than none. You can check
that on the top of the processor box in the module chart.
Paul
On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:41 AM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
wrote:
On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:46 AM, Paul Anderson
<useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's not.
Do you only have one G401? strange...
no, no, I have currently one mos/bipolar controller running one bipolar
memory board on the main 11/45 backplane. Sexy but expensive and not
nearly enough to get stuff done in unix. Then I have three 4KW core sets,
each on its own backplane with controller. Very neat but very
space-consuming!
I've decided that I'm probably going to remove the bipolar and core and
replace it with a plain old 124KW M7891 MS11. Freeing up that space the
core is currently taking will allow me to install a plain dd11 backplane
for the other features I need. Things like SMD big disk controller,
ethernet, dz11 terminal board, 124KW memory, etc. without having to go to
aother cabinet. These all require MUD/SPC slots and I have *none*
currently. So the core goes. So sad. I have a number of other pdp11s, so
it'll find a good use. Unless someone out there wants to do a little
horse-trading!.
But anyway, I'm getting waay ahead of myself here because I haven't even
been through the power yet. Boards are all out and I'm enlisting the help
of my ee buddies to try to repair my H745s on Monday, so I'll play with the
good old 11/34 until then!
Thanks for the interest & comments!
--jake
5:44 p.m.
On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 2:16 AM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
Think of the bipolar as very fast extra memory. It can
sort of act like a
cache memory, and can help with processor throughput.
Only if software is carefully written to use it that way. The hardware
doesn't use it in any way similar to a cache. It's just a memory
region that happens to be fast.
I thought there were
2 controller boards and 4 G401s, but one is better than none. You can check
that on the top of the processor box in the module chart.
Depends on how much Fastbus memory you have. There's a controller in
slot 16 for memory modules in 17-20, and optionally a second
controller in slot 21 for modules in 22-25. There's no interleaving,
so you only need the second controller when you have five or more
memory modules.
11:40 p.m.
What I was trying to say is that it's not part of the 128 kw or 256 kb
limit of the 45 and is fast.
I don't recall being able to have 2 sets of it. I don't think I've seen one
since I left DEC in the late 70s, but thanks for clearing that up.
Paul
On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 4:44 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 2:16 AM, Paul Anderson
<useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
Think of the bipolar as very fast extra memory.
It can sort of act like a
cache memory, and can help with processor throughput.
Only if software is carefully written to use it that way. The hardware
doesn't use it in any way similar to a cache. It's just a memory
region that happens to be fast.
I thought there were
2 controller boards and 4 G401s, but one is better than none. You can
check
that on the top of the processor box in the
module chart.
Depends on how much Fastbus memory you have. There's a controller in
slot 16 for memory modules in 17-20, and optionally a second
controller in slot 21 for modules in 22-25. There's no interleaving,
so you only need the second controller when you have five or more
memory modules.
12:51 a.m.
On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 9:40 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
What I was trying to say is that it's not part of
the 128 kw or 256 kb
limit of the 45 and is fast.
The 11/45 (or 11/50, 11/55) Fastbus memory, whether MOS or bipolar, is
not directly on either Unibus, but it *IS* in the normal address space
of the machine, taking up an address range that is not then usable for
Unibus memory. As far as the software can tell, it is just a memory
region that happens to be faster than typical Unibus memory.
The 11/45 (etc.) hardware doesn't perform any magic that makes it
behave in any way differently than normal PDP-11 memory, aside from
the faster speed.
8 Feb
8 Feb
5:41 p.m.
On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com> wrote:
I'm going to duck after asking this, but would
it be at all feasible to
rewire the main 11/45 backplane to get rid of the weird voltages in those
bipolar slots so they'd accommodate normal boards like these?
It's not just "weird voltages". Slots 17-20 and 22-25 are Fastbus, not
Unibus, so they're not
usable for *anything* except 11/45 fastbus memory. Slots 16 and 21,
for the Fastbus
memory controllers, do have Unibus, but I haven't verified that the
pinouts match normal
Unibus slots. They definitely are NOT wired for SPC use.
Fastbus memory could be either:
MS11-B (MOS)
M8110 memory control
G401 or G401-YA MOS memory matrix
MS11-A or -C (bipolar)
M8120 memory control (M8110 in early versions)
M121A-YA bipolar memory, 4K, parity
M8111 bipolar memory, 1K
M8111-YA bipolar memory, 1K, parity
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