24 Jul
2012
24 Jul
'12
5:40 p.m.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251115805166
down to cloning the Christies box
gee.. I wonder where he got the scan of the manual from
24 Jul
24 Jul
5:52 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Al Kossow
Sent: Wednesday, 25 July 2012 10:41 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Apple 1 insanity continues
down to cloning the Christies box
gee.. I wonder where he got the scan of the manual
from
He does point out multiple times it's a replica - no-one could be confused
that it's an original.
7:23 p.m.
On 7/24/2012 8:52 PM, Lance Lyon wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Al Kossow
Sent: Wednesday, 25 July 2012 10:41 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Apple 1 insanity continues
right but that doesn't help the *next* mark in the chain....
down to cloning the Christies box
gee.. I wonder where he got the scan of the
manual from
He does point out multiple times it's a replica - no-one could be
confused
that it's an original.
5:53 p.m.
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Al Kossow wrote:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251115805166
down to cloning the Christies box
gee.. I wonder where he got the scan of the manual from
At that price you'd think they could at least use one of the better Mylar
ESD bags rather than those cheap pink poly bags...
6:49 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags (was: Re: Apple 1 insanity continues)
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, William Donzelli wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Tothwolf wrote:
The pink bags actually aren't as conductive as the metalized mylar bags
and are not rated for the same level of ESD protection. The pink bags also
break down chemically over time (which anyone who has witnessed this also
knows that they smell really, really bad when they do this). On the other
hand, the mylar bags last practically forever.
At that price you'd think they could at least
use one of the better
Mylar ESD bags rather than those cheap pink poly bags...
Why? The pink ones work as well. 
7:15 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags (was: Re: Apple 1 insanity continues)
The pink bags actually aren't as conductive as the
metalized mylar bags and
are not rated for the same level of ESD protection. The pink bags also break
down chemically over time (which anyone who has witnessed this also knows
that they smell really, really bad when they do this). On the other hand,
the mylar bags last practically forever.
They do not have to be as good as the mylar ones (unless you pay for
the really good pink ones, which are pretty expensive). Why waste the
money when the protection will be good enough for the job at hand?
--
Will
7:31 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags (was: Re: Apple 1 insanity continues)
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, William Donzelli wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Tothwolf wrote:
Define "good enough"? I have 20+ year old HP padded bags here that used
carbon black conductive plastic on the inside and pink poly on the
outside, and the pink poly has deteriorated to the point where they are
now useless (it just crumbles if you touch it).
My point was, for the $2300.00 asking price, they could at least use a
higher quality ESD bag for the board.
I also don't personally consider a better ESD bag to be a waste of money
and I generally use mylar bags in preference to the pink bags if I have
the right size on hand. For classic computer use, second hand metalized
mylar bags are perfectly fine and are _dirt cheap_.
The pink bags actually aren't as conductive
as the metalized mylar bags
and are not rated for the same level of ESD protection. The pink bags
also break down chemically over time (which anyone who has witnessed
this also knows that they smell really, really bad when they do this).
On the other hand, the mylar bags last practically forever.
They do not have to be as good as the mylar ones (unless you pay for the
really good pink ones, which are pretty expensive). Why waste the money
when the protection will be good enough for the job at hand? 
7:52 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On 7/24/2012 7:31 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
I also don't personally consider a better ESD bag to be a waste of
money and I generally use mylar bags in preference to the pink bags if
I have the right size on hand. For classic computer use, second hand
metalized mylar bags are perfectly fine and are _dirt cheap_.
What's the verdict on the anti-static bubble wrap ? It's nice to kill
two birds with one stone but, I have often wondered if there wasn't a catch.
8:39 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, mc68010 wrote:
On 7/24/2012 7:31 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
Like the pink poly bags, it has less potential to create static than
regular bubble wrap. I never wrap boards in it alone, although I've gotten
a lot of boards that way (as well as wrapped in regular bubble wrap and
everything else one could possibly use).
I also don't personally consider a better ESD
bag to be a waste of
money and I generally use mylar bags in preference to the pink bags if
I have the right size on hand. For classic computer use, second hand
metalized mylar bags are perfectly fine and are _dirt cheap_.
What's the verdict on the anti-static bubble wrap ? It's nice to kill
two birds with one stone but, I have often wondered if there wasn't a
catch.
8:46 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On 7/24/2012 8:39 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
Like the pink poly bags, it has less potential to
create static than
regular bubble wrap. I never wrap boards in it alone, although I've
gotten a lot of boards that way (as well as wrapped in regular bubble
wrap and everything else one could possibly use).
How do we actually even know ? Other than it being 'pink' is there a way
to actually check it has any effect at all ?
9:04 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, mc68010 wrote:
On 7/24/2012 8:39 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
Rub the bubble wrap against itself and see if you get a reading on a ESD
meter? For a poor man's version, see if it generates enough static to
raise the hair on your arm.
Like the pink poly bags, it has less potential to
create static than
regular bubble wrap. I never wrap boards in it alone, although I've gotten
a lot of boards that way (as well as wrapped in regular bubble wrap and
everything else one could possibly use).
How do we actually even know ? Other than it being 'pink' is there a way to
actually check it has any effect at all ? 
9:29 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On 7/24/2012 9:04 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, mc68010 wrote:
I had a fight with a customer onetime when we shifted from mylar to the
pink bags. He was all pissed off and read me the riot act that the bags
were no good.
He was sitting at his desk with a voom and no way he could find any
conductivity in the bags. No good. Never mind they only needed to be
there for shipping, he never inventoried them at his end. Never mind
this was irrelevant.
Never mind that the mylar bags we used had no conductivity except in the
megohms either.
Jim
On 7/24/2012 8:39 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
Rub the bubble wrap against itself and see if you get a reading on a
ESD meter? For a poor man's version, see if it generates enough static
to raise the hair on your arm.
Like the pink poly bags, it has less potential to
create static than
regular bubble wrap. I never wrap boards in it alone, although I've
gotten a lot of boards that way (as well as wrapped in regular
bubble wrap and everything else one could possibly use).
How do we actually even know ? Other than it being 'pink' is there a
way to actually check it has any effect at all ? 
10:22 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On 24 Jul 2012 at 21:29, jim s wrote:
He was sitting at his desk with a voom and no way he
could find any
conductivity in the bags. No good. Never mind they only needed to be
there for shipping, he never inventoried them at his end. Never mind
this was irrelevant.
Never mind that the mylar bags we used had no conductivity except in
the megohms either.
Clearly, the only safe anti-static bag (taking a cue from an earlier
post) is one filled with water.
So why aren't aluminized foil bags used more? I have a few--
basically a sandwich made of foil sandwiched between an outer
envelope of PE sheet and an inner linner of bubble material. Totally
opaque.
Heck, I've seen wine and snack foods packaged in something quite
similar.
--Chuck
10:36 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
So why aren't aluminized foil bags used more? I
have a few--
basically a sandwich made of foil sandwiched between an outer
envelope of PE sheet and an inner linner of bubble material. Totally
opaque.
Being *too* conductive is not ESD safe. The idea is to let the charge
drain away slowly. If a charge drains too quickly, it can induce a
charge nearby that might not be protected, like something internal to
a component.
--
Will
10:55 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On 25 Jul 2012 at 1:36, William Donzelli wrote:
Being *too* conductive is not ESD safe. The idea is to
let the charge
drain away slowly. If a charge drains too quickly, it can induce a
charge nearby that might not be protected, like something internal to
a component.
So that black (carbon-impregnated) foam used for ICs isn't ESD-safe
becasue the resistance is only a hundred ohms or so per square inch?
I remember when early MOSFETs were shipped with the leads connected
together by a small jumper. You installed the FET and then clipped
the jumper, Odd and disastrous things could happen if you forgot to
remove the jumper.
--Chuck
25 Jul
25 Jul
12:36 a.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On 07/25/2012 01:55 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Laser diodes are shipped with shorting bars across their leads. The
idea there is to to avoid any significant voltage differential between
the leads.
As the same issue is at hand with MOS components, I'd call bullshit on
the idea of "too conductive" being bad. I'd like to see some references
on that.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Being *too*
conductive is not ESD safe. The idea is to let the charge
drain away slowly. If a charge drains too quickly, it can induce a
charge nearby that might not be protected, like something internal to
a component.
So that black (carbon-impregnated) foam used for ICs isn't ESD-safe
becasue the resistance is only a hundred ohms or so per square inch?
I remember when early MOSFETs were shipped with the leads connected
together by a small jumper. You installed the FET and then clipped
the jumper, Odd and disastrous things could happen if you forgot to
remove the jumper.
1:06 a.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 25 Jul 2012 at 1:36, William Donzelli wrote:
It isn't 100% ESD safe because it isn't shielded. This is why many
electronic component distributors will still put parts that are in foam
inside an anti-static bag.
A word of caution with black ESD foam... In the late 1990s I obtained a
bunch of 1960s logic chips stuck in black foam that had begun to break
down and it attacked (and literally corroded away) the IC leads. For this
very reason I prefer to store ICs in tubes vs conductive foam for long
term storage.
Being *too* conductive is not ESD safe. The idea
is to let the charge
drain away slowly. If a charge drains too quickly, it can induce a
charge nearby that might not be protected, like something internal to
a component.
So that black (carbon-impregnated) foam used for ICs isn't ESD-safe
becasue the resistance is only a hundred ohms or so per square inch?
1:15 a.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On 07/25/2012 04:06 AM, Tothwolf wrote:
It isn't 100% ESD safe because it isn't shielded. This is why many
electronic component distributors will still put parts that are in foam
inside an anti-static bag.
So you mean the lack of the Faraday effect?
Being *too* conductive is not ESD safe. The idea is to
let the charge
drain away slowly. If a charge drains too quickly, it can induce a
charge nearby that might not be protected, like something internal to
a component.
So that black (carbon-impregnated) foam used for ICs isn't ESD-safe
becasue the resistance is only a hundred ohms or so per square inch? A word of caution with black ESD foam... In the late
1990s I obtained a
bunch of 1960s logic chips stuck in black foam that had begun to break
down and it attacked (and literally corroded away) the IC leads. For
this very reason I prefer to store ICs in tubes vs conductive foam for
long term storage.
I've had this happen too. It makes quite a nasty mess, and whatever
ooze the foam turns into is very corrosive.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
1:40 a.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On Wed, 25 Jul 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
In this case it didn't turn to goo (or it has passed that stage by the
time I got them). When I went to remove the components from the foam, the
foam crumbled away and with it went the badly corroded IC leads. If I can
find where I stuck those ICs away I should see about getting a photo.
Luckily none of those parts were all that "rare" or uncommon.
On 07/25/2012 04:06 AM, Tothwolf wrote:
It isn't 100% ESD safe because it isn't shielded. This is why many
electronic component distributors will still put parts that are in foam
inside an anti-static bag.
So you mean the lack of the Faraday effect?
Right.
Being *too* conductive is not ESD safe. The idea is to
let the charge
drain away slowly. If a charge drains too quickly, it can induce a
charge nearby that might not be protected, like something internal to
a component.
So that black (carbon-impregnated) foam used for ICs isn't ESD-safe
becasue the resistance is only a hundred ohms or so per square inch? A word of
caution with black ESD foam... In the late 1990s I obtained a
bunch of 1960s logic chips stuck in black foam that had begun to break
down and it attacked (and literally corroded away) the IC leads. For
this very reason I prefer to store ICs in tubes vs conductive foam for
long term storage.
I've had this happen too. It makes quite a nasty mess, and whatever
ooze the foam turns into is very corrosive. 
12:56 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
I remember when early MOSFETs were shipped with the
leads connected
together by a small jumper. You installed the FET and then clipped
the jumper, Odd and disastrous things could happen if you forgot to
remove the jumper.
I've fitted CD laser pickup units where the laser diode was shorted out
(for ESD proteciton) by a blob of solder between 2 pads on the
fleixprint. After fitting the assembly and connecting the flexiprint to
the CD player PCB, you used desolder braid to remvoe this bridge and
thus enable the laser. If you forget, it doens't work (but normally no
other damage is done).
-tony
12:19 a.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On Wed, 25 Jul 2012, William Donzelli wrote:
Exactly, the same sort of problem you can run into with the black
conductive bags (such as the black conductive bags IBM used to pack their
boards and drives in).
So why
aren't aluminized foil bags used more? I have a few--
basically a sandwich made of foil sandwiched between an outer
envelope of PE sheet and an inner linner of bubble material. Totally
opaque.
Being *too* conductive is not ESD safe. The idea is to let the charge
drain away slowly. If a charge drains too quickly, it can induce a
charge nearby that might not be protected, like something internal to
a component.
12:33 a.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 24 Jul 2012 at 21:29, jim s wrote:
Lithium coin cell batteries and real-time clock modules (with embedded
batteries).
As Will pointed out, if the bags are too conductive (just like the black
conductive bags), they don't really protect against external ESD.
I have some very old foil-type antistatic bags that have a plastic layer
on the inside and a stiff foil on the outside. They even hold their shape
if you bend them. The most common type I see today are the metalized film
type bags though, and those are safe for use with boards that use lithium
coin cells.
He was sitting at his desk with a voom and no way
he could find any
conductivity in the bags. No good. Never mind they only needed to be
there for shipping, he never inventoried them at his end. Never mind
this was irrelevant.
Never mind that the mylar bags we used had no conductivity except in
the megohms either.
Clearly, the only safe anti-static bag (taking a cue from an earlier
post) is one filled with water.
So why aren't aluminized foil bags used more? I have a few-- basically
a sandwich made of foil sandwiched between an outer envelope of PE sheet
and an inner linner of bubble material. Totally opaque.
12:46 a.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On 07/25/2012 03:33 AM, Tothwolf wrote:
As Will pointed out, if the bags are too conductive
(just like the black
conductive bags), they don't really protect against external ESD.
Why would this be? The idea is to dissipate very high voltages that
has almost low current behind them, because the gate dielectric in
MOSFETs is very thin and can be punctured by high voltages, so you need
to avoid large voltage differentials between pins. Higher conductivity
achieves that just as well.
I can "sorta" see what Will was talking about when too much current
flows too quickly, producing charges in nearby components via
electromagnetic induction. Is that the issue here?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
1:12 a.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On Wed, 25 Jul 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 07/25/2012 03:33 AM, Tothwolf wrote:
The idea behind the metalized plastic type bags is to shield the parts
inside the bag from potential ESD outside the bag.
As Will pointed out, if the bags are too
conductive (just like the
black conductive bags), they don't really protect against external ESD.
Why would this be? The idea is to dissipate very high voltages that has
almost low current behind them, because the gate dielectric in MOSFETs
is very thin and can be punctured by high voltages, so you need to avoid
large voltage differentials between pins. Higher conductivity achieves
that just as well. I can "sorta" see what Will was talking
about when too much current
flows too quickly, producing charges in nearby components via
electromagnetic induction. Is that the issue here?
If the bag itself is conductive between the inside and outside (fully foil
or carbon black) then just touching the bag if you are at a different
potential can still zap whatever is inside the bag.
24 Jul
24 Jul
9:33 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Tothwolf wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, mc68010 wrote:
Better still, this page explains the difference between the metalized bags
and the pink poly bags:
http://www.packagingknowledge.com/Anti_Static_Bags.asp
?METALISED SHIELDING? BAGS (Silver in colour) --
"If bags, holding STATIC SENSITIVE COMPONENTS, are to be handled OUTSIDE
OF AN ?EPA?, they should be METALISED SHIELDING BAGS, a FARADAY CAGE!"
ANTISTATIC BAGS (Pink, clear etc.) --
"Antistatic bags offer NO effective protection against a contact ESD!"
"They should only be used for NON STATIC SENSITIVE components, e.g.
nuts, bolts, paper etc."
...
On 7/24/2012 8:39 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
Rub the bubble wrap against itself and see if you get a reading on a ESD
meter? For a poor man's version, see if it generates enough static to raise
the hair on your arm. Like the pink poly bags, it has less potential to
create static than
regular bubble wrap. I never wrap boards in it alone, although I've gotten
a lot of boards that way (as well as wrapped in regular bubble wrap and
everything else one could possibly use).
How do we actually even know ? Other than it being 'pink' is there a way to
actually check it has any effect at all ?
9:57 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On 7/24/2012 9:33 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
ANTISTATIC BAGS (Pink, clear etc.) --
"Antistatic bags offer NO effective protection against a contact ESD!"
"They should only be used for NON STATIC SENSITIVE components, e.g.
nuts, bolts, paper etc."
...
Since it isn't metallic what are they doing other than dying it pink ? I
have always wondered if I wasn't just being ripped off. What does the
pink supposed to mean was added to the plastic ?
10:12 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
Since it isn't metallic what are they doing other
than dying it pink ? I
have always wondered if I wasn't just being ripped off. What does the pink
supposed to mean was added to the plastic ?
Some sort of polymer is added to the plastic to make it conductive
(actually not very conductive at all - for the cheap bags, a couple of
orders of magnitude worse than the metal mylar bags, I think. This is
not as bad as it sounds). I do not think it has anything to do with
being pink.
Nor does being pink mean the bag is ESD safe, either, so randomly
found pink bags are always suspect.
--
Will
9:26 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On 7/24/2012 8:39 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
In my experience, pink poly bags of any stripe are pretty much useless.
They may be 'static dissipative', but they do little to protect it's
contents.
While it's possible to test metalized bags with a DMM and the appropriate
probes, I know of no way to test the efficacy of pink poly bags.
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Like the pink poly bags, it has less potential to
create static than
regular bubble wrap. I never wrap boards in it alone, although I've
gotten a lot of boards that way (as well as wrapped in regular bubble
wrap and everything else one could possibly use).
How do we actually even know ? Other than it being 'pink' is there a way
to actually check it has any effect at all ?
9:54 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
In my experience, pink poly bags of any stripe are
pretty much useless.
They may be 'static dissipative', but they do little to protect it's
contents.
That makes no sense. Being "static dissipative" is the main way you
protect wrapped things from ESD damage. Perhaps you have crummy pink
bags. There are good ones.
Side note: another reason the mylar bags are used more when ESD danger
is high is that it is pretty hard for someone, like unskilled labor,
to mistake a metalized mylar bag for anything else, but the pink ESD
bags can easily be confused with non-ESD safe pink bags.
--
Will
8:14 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags (was: Re: Apple 1 insanity continues)
Define "good enough"?
"Good enough" means protect the board from the moment it gets put into
the bag until the point when the user removes it.
My point was, for the $2300.00 asking price, they
could at least use a
higher quality ESD bag for the board.
Doing so would be a waste of money. For all we know, the guy's uncle
owns a pink ESD bag factory, or maybe he just had them on hand.
In the real world, electronics manufacturers use the mylar bags when
the products are likely to be handled by the semi-skilled labor
typically found on the factory floor, and the pink bags when the
products are done and out of danger. They do this because just one of
those laborers in the ESD sensitive area can make a huge mess of
things for a long time. Now maybe this Apple 1 replica guy actually
knows how to handle things in an ESD safe manner, so figured he could
use the pink stuff (and of course we are also assuming that he is
using the cheap everyday pink stuff, and not the milspec expensive
stuff).
--
Will
25 Jul
25 Jul
4:59 a.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On 07/25/2012 04:31 AM, Tothwolf wrote:
My point was, for the $2300.00 asking price, they
could at least use a
higher quality ESD bag for the board.
You are missing the point though. This is a _replica_, and by the looks
of it, a very good one. I suppose the apple 1 was shipped in pink plastic?
(I don't know though, but I would bet on it)
/P
5:31 a.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On Wed, 25 Jul 2012, Pontus wrote:
On 07/25/2012 04:31 AM, Tothwolf wrote:
Actually, no one has suggested that or tried to make such a point.
As far as looks go, it likely is a copy of Mike's board:
http://www.willegal.net/appleii/apple1-process.htm
Regardless, the video Michael linked to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imdtXcnywb8 pretty much sums it up. Trying
to sell even a /replica/ board for $2300.00 and sticking such a board with
that many ESD sensitive chips in a pink poly bag is just plain _stupid_.
It might as well not be in the pink bag at all.
My point was, for the $2300.00 asking price, they
could at least use a
higher quality ESD bag for the board.
You are missing the point though. This is a _replica_, and by the looks of
it, a very good one. I suppose the apple 1 was shipped in pink plastic?
(I don't know though, but I would bet on it) 
10:16 a.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On Wed, 25 Jul 2012, Pontus wrote:
You are missing the point though. This is a _replica_,
and by the looks
of it, a very good one. I suppose the apple 1 was shipped in pink plastic?
(I don't know though, but I would bet on it)
Seems logical, considering how many corners were cut (such as the bad
sockets)
24 Jul
24 Jul
7:24 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
Tothwolf wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, William Donzelli wrote:
I had a empty, open metalized mylar bag marked "humidity sensitive
components". This bag sat untouched in a drawer for a number of years.
I was looking for some parts and noticed some liquid in the drawer,
Picking up the bag, it contained at least a pint of water. Desiccant
impregnated bag?
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Tothwolf wrote:
The pink bags actually aren't as conductive as the metalized mylar
bags and are not rated for the same level of ESD protection. The pink
bags also break down chemically over time (which anyone who has
witnessed this also knows that they smell really, really bad when they
do this). On the other hand, the mylar bags last practically forever.
At that price you'd think they could at least
use one of the better
Mylar ESD bags rather than those cheap pink poly bags...
Why? The pink ones work as well. 
7:48 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
I had a empty, open metalized mylar bag marked
"humidity sensitive
components". This bag sat untouched in a drawer for a number of years.
I was looking for some parts and noticed some liquid in the drawer,
Picking up the bag, it contained at least a pint of water. Desiccant
impregnated bag?
Mouse piss.
8:10 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
It was clear, with no smell and it didn't have any off-taste. ;-)
I had a empty, open metalized mylar bag marked
"humidity sensitive
components". This bag sat untouched in a drawer for a number of years.
I was looking for some parts and noticed some liquid in the drawer,
Picking up the bag, it contained at least a pint of water. Desiccant
impregnated bag?
Mouse piss.
8:27 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
Wait wait. You run into a random, unidentified fluid in an unexpected place... and your
instinct is to taste it?
On 2012-07-24, at 11:10 PM, jimpdavis wrote:
Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
It was clear, with no smell and it didn't have any off-taste. ;-)
I had a empty, open metalized mylar bag marked
"humidity sensitive components". This bag sat untouched in a drawer for a number
of years.
I was looking for some parts and noticed some liquid in the drawer, Picking up the bag,
it contained at least a pint of water. Desiccant impregnated bag?
Mouse piss.
8:43 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
Paul Anderson wrote:
Wait wait. You run into a random, unidentified fluid
in an unexpected place... and your instinct is to taste it?
On 2012-07-24, at 11:10 PM, jimpdavis wrote:
That was my crude attempt to humor the "mouse piss" comment.
Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
It was clear, with no smell and it didn't have any off-taste. ;-)
I had a
empty, open metalized mylar bag marked "humidity sensitive components". This bag
sat untouched in a drawer for a number of years.
I was looking for some parts and noticed some liquid in the drawer, Picking up the bag,
it contained at least a pint of water. Desiccant impregnated bag?
Mouse piss.
8:50 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
And my attempt at further humor has failed:)
--------
Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP
On 2012-07-24, at 11:43 PM, jimpdavis <jimpdavis at gorge.net> wrote:
Paul Anderson wrote:
Wait wait. You run into a random, unidentified
fluid in an unexpected place... and your instinct is to taste it?
On 2012-07-24, at 11:10 PM, jimpdavis wrote:
That was my crude attempt to humor the "mouse piss" comment.
Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
> I had a empty, open metalized mylar bag
marked "humidity sensitive components". This bag sat untouched in a drawer for a
number of years.
> I was looking for some parts and noticed some liquid in the drawer, Picking up the
bag, it contained at least a pint of water. Desiccant impregnated bag?
Mouse piss.
It was clear, with no smell and it didn't have any off-taste. ;-)
25 Jul
25 Jul
12:47 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
>> Wait wait. You run into a random,
unidentified fluid in an unexpected
>> place... and your instinct is to taste it?
Is there an easier way to decide whether it is safe to use in the radiator
of your car? 
9:51 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
I'll just leave this here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imdtXcnywb8
Quick comment:
Pink bags don't create static or hold a charge in itself, but allows a
charge to pass through it's material.
The silver bags dissipate charges by being conductive and also prevents
a charge from passing through it.
10:09 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On 7/24/2012 9:51 PM, Michael Lee wrote:
I'll just leave this here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imdtXcnywb8
It is starting to seem that everything new I will learn will always be
explained with an Australian accent.
10:22 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
This is an ET. His day has 80 hours.
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message -----
From: "mc68010" <mc68010 at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 2:09 AM
Subject: Re: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On 7/24/2012 9:51 PM, Michael Lee wrote:
I'll just leave this here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imdtXcnywb8
It is starting to seem that everything new I will learn will always be
explained with an Australian accent.
10:27 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On 24 Jul 2012 at 22:09, mc68010 wrote:
It is starting to seem that everything new I will learn will always be
explained with an Australian accent.
Dear god, not Dave! I like his subject matter, but I have to pour a
couple of strong drinks before I can listen to that whiny *VOICE*,
lest I shove a hot soldering iron into my ears.
--Chuck
10:42 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
I must confess I admire Dave a lot, but laugh a lot with his voice :D
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 2:27 AM
Subject: Re: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On 24 Jul 2012 at 22:09, mc68010 wrote:
It is starting to seem that everything new I will learn will always be
explained with an Australian accent.
Dear god, not Dave! I like his subject matter, but I have to pour a
couple of strong drinks before I can listen to that whiny *VOICE*,
lest I shove a hot soldering iron into my ears.
--Chuck
10:45 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 24 Jul 2012 at 22:09, mc68010 wrote:
I'm glad I'm on dial-up. Saves me from the pain.
I suffered through his Rigol DS1025 scope review and hack. Ack!
It is starting to seem that everything new I will learn will always be
explained with an Australian accent.
Dear god, not Dave! I like his subject
matter, but I have to pour a
couple of strong drinks before I can listen to that whiny *VOICE*,
lest I shove a hot soldering iron into my ears.
--Chuck
10:47 p.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On 25/07/2012, at 3:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 24 Jul 2012 at 22:09, mc68010 wrote:
Jeez, I am Australian, and I find Dave's voice incredibly irritating... Lucky
I've had a couple of strong drinks already I guess : )
Chris
It is starting to seem that everything new I will learn will always be
explained with an Australian accent.
Dear god, not Dave! I like his subject matter, but I have to pour a
couple of strong drinks before I can listen to that whiny *VOICE*,
lest I shove a hot soldering iron into my ears.
--Chuck
25 Jul
25 Jul
12:39 a.m.
New subject: Pink poly vs metalized mylar ESD bags
On 07/25/2012 01:27 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Damn good video. Smart guy. I hadn't heard of him before. I'll be
looking up his other videos tomorrow.
But yes, DEAR GOD THAT VOICE! How terribly unfortunate.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
It is starting to seem that everything new I will learn will always be
explained with an Australian accent.
Dear god, not Dave! I like his subject matter, but I have to pour a
couple of strong drinks before I can listen to that whiny *VOICE*,
lest I shove a hot soldering iron into my ears.
24 Jul
24 Jul
6:12 p.m.
On 25/07/2012, at 10:53 AM, Tothwolf wrote:
At that price you'd think he could also clean the solder flux off the board a bit...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251115805166
down to cloning the Christies box
gee.. I wonder where he got the scan of the manual from
At that price you'd think they could at least use one of the better Mylar ESD bags
rather than those cheap pink poly bags... 
5:54 p.m.
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Al Kossow wrote:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251115805166
down to cloning the Christies box
gee.. I wonder where he got the scan of the manual from
The silk screening and smoothness of the traces look too good to be from
the mid 1970s. Also, those sockets look practically brand-new. Can any
of you get a good date code from what you see there?
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
6:14 p.m.
On 7/24/2012 5:54 PM, David Griffith wrote:
The silk screening and smoothness of the traces look too good to be
from the mid 1970s. Also, those sockets look practically brand-new.
Can any of you get a good date code from what you see there?
I dont think they are claiming it as anything but, a replica. Still they
didn't even try very hard. Not $2500 hard anyway. Most of the IC's look
to be late from the 80's and many don't match what you would see on an
Apple I. That's about $100-$150 worth of replica there and expect a lot
more of them soon.
6:19 p.m.
On 24 Jul 2012 at 17:54, David Griffith wrote:
The silk screening and smoothness of the traces look
too good to be
from the mid 1970s. Also, those sockets look practically brand-new.
Can any of you get a good date code from what you see there?
The date codes are all over the place, from what I can see, 78 to 84
at least.
But being in China, I'm sure he can find a place that will give him
any date code he wants.
--Chuck
8:44 p.m.
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, David Griffith wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Al Kossow wrote:
There looks to be a date of 2012 etched into the solder side of the
board...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251115805166
down to cloning the Christies box
gee.. I wonder where he got the scan of the manual from
The silk screening and smoothness of the traces look too good to be from the
mid 1970s. Also, those sockets look practically brand-new. Can any of you
get a good date code from what you see there?
25 Jul
25 Jul
12:42 p.m.
There looks to be a date of 2012 etched into the
solder side of the
board...
If this is a mutli-layer board (or could eb a multi-layer board), I think
I'd put the date on an internal layer with clear regions on all the other
layers so it's visible if you shine light through the PCB. That can't be
scraped off.
-tony
26 Jul
26 Jul
12:07 a.m.
Does anybody know what the original price was when shipped by J&W?
Perhaps he should have replicated that as well!
Regards
?
Rod Smallwood
?
?
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: 25 July 2012 01:54
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Apple 1 insanity continues
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Al Kossow wrote:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251115805166
down to cloning the Christies box
gee.. I wonder where he got the scan of the manual from
The silk screening and smoothness of the traces look too good to be from
the mid 1970s. Also, those sockets look practically brand-new. Can any
of you get a good date code from what you see there?
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
10:33 a.m.
On 26 Jul 2012 at 10:10, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jul 2012, Rod Smallwood wrote:
I thought it was $666.66, but my memory may have added the cost of a
beer. I recall that Homebrew members were offered a discounted
price, but don't remember what it was.
--Chuck
Does anybody know what the original price was
when shipped by J&W?
Perhaps he should have replicated that as well!
Wasn't it $666 ?
24 Jul
24 Jul
5:58 p.m.
On 24 Jul 2012 at 17:40, Al Kossow wrote:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251115805166
down to cloning the Christies box
gee.. I wonder where he got the scan of the manual from
He's in Hong Kong? So the Chinese are now getting into the Apple I
replica business? Wow.
--Chuck
6:02 p.m.
On 7/24/2012 5:40 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251115805166
down to cloning the Christies box
gee.. I wonder where he got the scan of the manual from
I like how it ships directly from Hong Kong. No way they just made 4.
Those parts are all so wrong too. They didn't even try. They'll be $99
plus shipping soon.
7:26 p.m.
On 7/24/2012 9:02 PM, mc68010 wrote:
On 7/24/2012 5:40 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
anyone up for offering $10 to see what happens? (plus the $50 "ePacket
shipping" what ever that is..)
steve
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251115805166
down to cloning the Christies box
gee.. I wonder where he got the scan of the manual from
I like how it ships directly from Hong Kong. No way they just made 4.
Those parts are all so wrong too. They didn't even try. They'll be $99
plus shipping soon.
9:08 p.m.
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 11:49 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, mc68010 wrote:
A rosewood enclosure?
-ethan
I like how it ships directly from Hong Kong. No
way they just made 4.
Those parts are all so wrong too. They didn't even try. They'll be $99
plus shipping soon.
Will they have USB ports? 
25 Jul
25 Jul
4:46 a.m.
New subject: Flood the world with Chinese knock-offs - Re: Apple 1 insanity continues
On 25/07/12 12:08 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 11:49 PM, Fred Cisin<cisin
at xenosoft.com> wrote:
We can be certain, given that it's sourced in China, that the
environment was maximally harmed in its creation.
--T
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, mc68010 wrote:
A rosewood enclosure? I like how it ships directly from Hong Kong. No
way they just made 4.
Those parts are all so wrong too. They didn't even try. They'll be $99
plus shipping soon.
Will they have USB ports?
-ethan
24 Jul
24 Jul
8:55 p.m.
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, mc68010 wrote:
On 7/24/2012 5:40 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
It isn't hard to see where he bought the parts...
2504 shift registers:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/390121272376
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidsLogin&_trksid=p4340.l256…
l***i (29) Accepted 140 May-24-12 20:50:48 PDT
l***i (29) Accepted 70 Feb-09-12 10:14:47 PST
14.31818MHz crystals:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/120905838701
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&_trksid=p4340.l2565&…
l***i (29) US $5.00 May-07-12 11:05:44 PDT
1N914 diodes:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/180785976164
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidsLogin&_trksid=p4340.l256…
l***i (29) Accepted 3 May-15-12 09:17:18 PDT
0.1uF 50V ceramic capacitors:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/190654524066
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidsLogin&_trksid=p4340.l256…
l***i (29) US $7.50 7 May-05-12 03:27:55 PDT
....
No doubt about it, he is gearing up for production.
Too bad he didn't use the right solder. "No-Clean" lead-free solder
didn't
exist back then.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251115805166
down to cloning the Christies box
gee.. I wonder where he got the scan of the manual from
I like how it ships directly from Hong Kong. No way they just made 4. Those
parts are all so wrong too. They didn't even try. They'll be $99 plus
shipping soon.
25 Jul
25 Jul
8:30 a.m.
On 7/24/12 8:55 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
Too bad he didn't use the right solder.
"No-Clean" lead-free solder didn't exist back then.
There are SO many wrong things about this copy. Machine-tooled sockets, modern monolythic
ceramic
caps. I'm surprised he bothered with carbon comp resistors.
On the other hand, it will probably be much more reliable than the original, just by using
decent
sockets.
8:49 a.m.
On 25 Jul 2012 at 8:30, Al Kossow wrote:
There are SO many wrong things about this copy.
Machine-tooled
sockets, modern monolythic ceramic caps. I'm surprised he bothered
with carbon comp resistors.
Weren't Augat machine-pin sockets available back then? I remember
using them around 1977 or so. Expensive buggers then.
--Chuck
9:40 a.m.
> There are SO many wrong things about this copy.
Machine-tooled
> sockets, modern monolythic ceramic caps. I'm surprised he bothered
> with carbon comp resistors.
On Wed, 25 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Weren't Augat machine-pin sockets available back
then? I remember
using them around 1977 or so. Expensive buggers then.
They were available. And expensive.
I used to have a "Eur-apple][" in which all the sockets had been replaced
with Augat! And LOTS of jumper wires all over the place in a previous
owner's futile attempts to convert it to a USA Apple][.
But, Apple always used single-wipe POS sockets. The worst ones available.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
10:44 a.m.
On 25 Jul 2012 at 9:40, Fred Cisin wrote:
But, Apple always used single-wipe POS sockets. The
worst ones
available.
Probably those terrible things that TI sold bucketloads of. I've
never seen a datasheet for them, but I suspect they were rated for no
more than 5 insertions. TI's wire-wrap sockets were just as awful.
Augats were nice because they were color-coded (or could be had that
way). Green=16 pin, Red=14 pin...
--Chuck
4:36 p.m.
On Wed, 25 Jul 2012, Al Kossow wrote:
On 7/24/12 8:55 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
I'm not so sure...
With those sockets, you have gold contacts against tin plated IC leads.
This can cause all sorts of problems where the gold isn't hard enough to
break through the tin oxide. New tin oxide will also begin to transfer to
the surface of the gold contacts. We saw this a lot back with 30-pin and
72-pin SIMMs when people would put modules with gold-plated contacts in
sockets with tin contacts.
Then there are those carbon comp resistors... We have no way of knowing
the vintage and storage history of those resistors. Carbon comp resistors
in general really, really don't like humidity and will drift in value over
time as humidity begins to affect the carbon. This is why modern metal
film resistors are much more reliable then carbon comps in general purpose
applications. Hopefully he happened to use old stock AB resistors since
their carbon comp resistors were somewhat better sealed and tended to age
/much/ better.
Too bad he didn't use the right solder.
"No-Clean" lead-free solder
didn't exist back then.
There are SO many wrong things about this copy. Machine-tooled sockets,
modern monolythic ceramic caps. I'm surprised he bothered with carbon
comp resistors.
On the other hand, it will probably be much more reliable than the
original, just by using decent sockets.
5:24 p.m.
On 25 Jul 2012 at 18:36, Tothwolf wrote:
With those sockets, you have gold contacts against tin
plated IC
leads. This can cause all sorts of problems where the gold isn't hard
enough to break through the tin oxide. New tin oxide will also begin
to transfer to the surface of the gold contacts. We saw this a lot
back with 30-pin and 72-pin SIMMs when people would put modules with
gold-plated contacts in sockets with tin contacts.
Given that these are machine-pin sockets, I don't think that will be
a problem. Generally, you get a gas-tight connection with these.
After all, silver oxidizes/sulfides like crazy, yet there are acres
of old wire-wrap (silver plating over copper wire wrapped around gold-
plated pins) that are still working just fine.
Wiping-contact sockets, SIMMs, edge connectors, etc., I could see a
problem.
Then there are those carbon comp resistors... We have
no way of
knowing the vintage and storage history of those resistors. Carbon
comp resistors in general really, really don't like humidity and will
drift in value over time as humidity begins to affect the carbon. This
is why modern metal film resistors are much more reliable then carbon
comps in general purpose applications. Hopefully he happened to use
old stock AB resistors since their carbon comp resistors were somewhat
better sealed and tended to age /much/ better.
Tolerances on carbon comp resistors matter. If you think that by
buying 1000 20% carbon resistors you'll get 100 that lie within 5% of
the marked value, you'll be sore disappointed. It seems counter-
intuitive, but comp resistors were "cherry picked" by value during
the manufacturing process. With film, that's not a problem, as
values can be laser-trimmed.
--Chuck
5:47 p.m.
Tolerances on carbon comp resistors matter. If you
think that by
buying 1000 20% carbon resistors you'll get 100 that lie within 5% of
the marked value, you'll be sore disappointed. It seems counter-
intuitive, but comp resistors were "cherry picked" by value during
the manufacturing process.
In the early days, they were cherry picked for values, but as the
industry matured, the processes allowed the makers to produce to
whatever value they wanted. If you open a sealed bag of carbon
resistors and measure them all, they will likely all be very close in
value, often with none straying more than 1 percent from any other in
that batch. And over time they all seem to drift with remarkable
accuracy as well.
And who the hell uses 20 percent resistors, other than those old time
1940s and 50 crap table radios?
--
Will
8:42 p.m.
On 25 Jul 2012 at 20:47, William Donzelli wrote:
In the early days, they were cherry picked for values,
but as the
industry matured, the processes allowed the makers to produce to
whatever value they wanted. If you open a sealed bag of carbon
resistors and measure them all, they will likely all be very close in
value, often with none straying more than 1 percent from any other in
that batch. And over time they all seem to drift with remarkable
accuracy as well.
And who the hell uses 20 percent resistors, other than those old time
1940s and 50 crap table radios?
I'm old--I can remember body-end-dot resistors.
--Chuck
26 Jul
26 Jul
12:16 p.m.
I'm old--I can remember body-end-dot resistors.
Often caleld 'body-tip-spot' over here. And yes I rememebr them. Heck, I
still have some. The other day I came across 3 disks of cardboard of
difiference sizes joined with an eyelet at the centre. They're colour
printed, each colour sector having a digit or a string of 0's in it as
ppropraite, they're labelled 'body, tip, spot'. You line up the
apporpriate colours and read off the value. My father had this thing in
the 1950s.
-tony
4:53 p.m.
On 26 Jul 2012 at 20:16, Tony Duell wrote:
Often caleld 'body-tip-spot' over here. And
yes I rememebr them. Heck,
I still have some. The other day I came across 3 disks of cardboard of
difiference sizes joined with an eyelet at the centre. They're colour
printed, each colour sector having a digit or a string of 0's in it as
ppropraite, they're labelled 'body, tip, spot'. You line up the
apporpriate colours and read off the value. My father had this thing
in the 1950s.
I'll confess that I'd have to run for a book for 5- and 6-spot mica
condensors/capacitors. Same goes for silvered mica.
I received an email from IBM this morning that advertised
"Multicore". I thought that it had something to do with a brand of
solder...
--Chuck
27 Jul
27 Jul
12:47 p.m.
I'll confess that I'd have to run for a book
for 5- and 6-spot mica
condensors/capacitors. Same goes for silvered mica.
Gawd, it's been years since I saw one of those. And yes, I'd have to look
them up. IIRC you read one row of dots one way, the other in the opposite
direction. I could still do (at least the capcitance) of a Mullard C280
though.
One thing I did find curious was that in one table of colour codes, it
claimed things like a violet tolerance band/dot meand it was +/-7%. Was
that ever used?
-tony
2:35 p.m.
New subject: Old Components; was Apple I
On 27 Jul 2012 at 20:47, Tony Duell wrote:
Memory says that the tolerance dot could take on any value from 1-9
percent, 10 and 20 percent. I'd have to go dig in some of my old
gear to see some examples of odd tolerances.
There was more than one 6-dot system in use, also. Some used the "no
color" middle dot on one of the rows to orient the reading order;
some had a dot for working voltage, etc.
--Chuck
I'll
confess that I'd have to run for a book for 5- and 6-spot mica
condensors/capacitors. Same goes for silvered mica.
Gawd, it's been years since I saw one of those. And yes, I'd have to
look them up. IIRC you read one row of dots one way, the other in the
opposite direction. I could still do (at least the capcitance) of a
Mullard C280 though.
One thing I did find curious was that in one table of colour codes, it
claimed things like a violet tolerance band/dot meand it was +/-7%.
Was that ever used?
25 Jul
25 Jul
6:37 p.m.
On Wed, 25 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 25 Jul 2012 at 18:36, Tothwolf wrote:
With wirewrapped connections, the contact area between the wire and the
pin isn't the flat surface area of the square pins, it's the corners of
the square pins. Properly wrapped connections will embed the corners of
those pins into the wrapped wire. Those contact points are gas-tight and
while the outer surfaces may tarnish, the connections are still very, very
good.
The problem is with tin plated contact surfaces though. Gold and silver
contacts are generally compatible, and while silver will tarnish, silver
oxide is still conductive, so silver plated contacts are generally not a
problem anyway. Even with machined pin sockets, those contain tiny wiping
contacts down inside the barrels. Machined pin sockets are still much
better made than the cheap poorly made leaf contact sockets, but at least
with the better quality leaf contact sockets, both surfaces are tin and
the surface of any tin oxide will be broken when plugging the IC into the
socket.
Again, where you really tend to run into problems is when tin contacts are
mixed with gold contacts since the gold just isn't a hard enough surface
to break through the tin oxide. You can pre-clean tin contact surfaces and
then treat the connection points with something like Stabilant 22A, which
will help quite a lot (I've done this and it can work very very well), but
mixing gold and tin contacts is still just asking for trouble.
With those sockets, you have gold contacts
against tin plated IC leads.
This can cause all sorts of problems where the gold isn't hard enough
to break through the tin oxide. New tin oxide will also begin to
transfer to the surface of the gold contacts. We saw this a lot back
with 30-pin and 72-pin SIMMs when people would put modules with
gold-plated contacts in sockets with tin contacts.
Given that these are machine-pin sockets, I don't think that will be a
problem. Generally, you get a gas-tight connection with these. After
all, silver oxidizes/sulfides like crazy, yet there are acres of old
wire-wrap (silver plating over copper wire wrapped around gold- plated
pins) that are still working just fine.
Wiping-contact sockets, SIMMs, edge connectors, etc., I could see a
problem.
8:41 p.m.
On 25 Jul 2012 at 20:37, Tothwolf wrote:
.> With wirewrapped connections, the contact area between the wire
and
the pin isn't the flat surface area of the square
pins, it's the
corners of the square pins. Properly wrapped connections will embed
the corners of those pins into the wrapped wire. Those contact points
are gas-tight and while the outer surfaces may tarnish, the
connections are still very, very good.
Take a good look at machine-pin sockets--the contact area is a round
hole that contacts the edges of the rectangular IC pin. So the
connection is gas tight. I doubt that the gold enters into the
equation much, as we're talking about a few microns of plating over a
very hard beryllium copper alloy over a very small contact area.
The problem is with tin plated contact surfaces
though. Gold and
silver contacts are generally compatible, and while silver will
tarnish, silver oxide is still conductive, so silver plated contacts
are generally not a problem anyway. Even with machined pin sockets,
those contain tiny wiping contacts down inside the barrels. Machined
pin sockets are still much better made than the cheap poorly made leaf
contact sockets, but at least with the better quality leaf contact
sockets, both surfaces are tin and the surface of any tin oxide will
be broken when plugging the IC into the socket.
Oxidation of silver happens very slowly and is generally not an issue-
-that ugly black stuff that forms on your cherished flatware is
silver sulfide (Ag2S). That's why silver tarnishes so much faster
when there's air pollution around. Silver sulfide is between 8 and
10 orders of magnitude more resistive electrically than pure silver.
With wiping contacts, such as a SIMM or DIMM, or PCB edge connector,
you do have problems with dissimilar surfaces. But I've yet to see a
gold-plated machine-pin socket fail.
--Chuck
.
24 Jul
24 Jul
7:44 p.m.
On Jul 24, 2012, at 5:40 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251115805166
down to cloning the Christies box
gee.. I wonder where he got the scan of the manual from
Could it be one of these?
http://www.willegal.net/appleii/apple1-kit.htm
25 Jul
25 Jul
1 a.m.
On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Pete Plank wrote:
On Jul 24, 2012, at 5:40 PM, Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
The board on eBay certainly looks similar to Mike's board:
http://www.willegal.net/appleii/apple1-process.htm
I wish Mike had a photo of the solder side of his reproduction boards
though. It could be that the seller on eBay based his board design on
[read: closely copied] Mike's reproduction board design.
Wanna bet we see some Rev 0 Apple II replica boards from this eBay guy
before too long too?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/280909884952
http://www.willegal.net/appleii/appleii-recreation.htm
Hrm...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251115805166
down to cloning the Christies box
gee.. I wonder where he got the scan of the manual from
Could it be one of these?
http://www.willegal.net/appleii/apple1-kit.htm
4482
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