10 Sep
2015
10 Sep
'15
7:38 a.m.
Hi All,
just to let you know that i've made a vector graphics file for A
hollerith punchcard.
https://hack42.nl/wiki/Bestand:Punchcard.svg
enjoy
--
Met vriendelijke Groet,
Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl
10 Sep
10 Sep
8:52 a.m.
On 9/10/15 4:38 AM, simon wrote:
Hi All,
just to let you know that i've made a vector graphics file for A
hollerith punchcard.
https://hack42.nl/wiki/Bestand:Punchcard.svg
enjoy
they are PUNCHED cards
look at ALL of the documentation of the period
NO ONE called them PUNCH cards
9:47 a.m.
On Sep 10, 2015, at 8:52 AM, Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
On 9/10/15 4:38 AM, simon wrote:
Not unless you use the Dutch term and translate literally to English...
paul
Hi All,
just to let you know that i've made a vector graphics file for A
hollerith punchcard.
https://hack42.nl/wiki/Bestand:Punchcard.svg
enjoy
they are PUNCHED cards
look at ALL of the documentation of the period
NO ONE called them PUNCH cards 
10:42 a.m.
On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Al Kossow wrote:
they are PUNCHED cards
look at ALL of the documentation of the period
NO ONE called them PUNCH cards
Half a century ago, there were already some people who got it wrong.
I had a boss who insisted that blanks in the box were "PUNCH CARDS",
that it wasn't until they got used that they became "PUNCHED CARDS".
He also said that the colored pencils that I manually did graphs
with were "COLOUR PENCILS".
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
11:16 a.m.
On 10 September 2015 at 15:42, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
He also said that the colored pencils that I manually
did graphs
with were "COLOUR PENCILS".
Sounds legit to me. But then in the old world we still spell the
proper, old-fashioned-way. ;?)
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)
3:06 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam
Proven
Sent: 10 September 2015 16:17
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: punchcard svg file available
On 10 September 2015 at 15:42, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
I believe that historically "color" or "colour" was acceptable in
English. It was the Victorians that pushed the current "English" spellings in an
attempt to "Latinise" or "Latinize" or even "Posh Up"
English and Webster
http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2014/05/america-drop-u-british-spelli…
who pushed the simplified spellings that the USA uses today....
He also said that the colored pencils that I
manually did graphs with
were "COLOUR PENCILS".
Sounds legit to me. But then in the old world we still spell the proper, old-
fashioned-way. ;?)
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)
3:18 p.m.
On 10 September 2015 at 15:42, Fred Cisin <cisin at
xenosoft.com> wrote:
> He also said that the colored pencils that I manually did graphs
> with were "COLOUR PENCILS".
On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Liam Proven wrote:
Sounds legit to me. But then in the old world we still
spell the
proper, old-fashioned-way. ;?)
Yes, GREY might be your FAVOURITE COLOUR.
BUT, notice though, that he said COLOUR pencils, not COLOURED pencils,
which is why I included that along with his choice of PUNCH V PUNCHED.
He was a British physicist at Goddard Space Flight Center,
studying the Van Allen radiaton belts.
We were "on-site contractors".
Which prompts me to wonder how much of this issue that we are
getting a double serving of (Deja Vu?) is related to regional
or community variations.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
11:40 a.m.
On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 7:52 AM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
look at ALL of the documentation of the period
NO ONE called them PUNCH cards
Section 7:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/burroughs/200-21001B_B200_SeriesRefM…
"Punch card stock" "punch card peripherals"
Second to last page:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/univac/terminals/brochures/U5219_DCT…
"punch card reading and handling"
3rd page in PDF:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/2000TSB/36000-91001_HP2000_contri…
"Punch card equipment test"
Section 5.3:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/philco/s-2000/TRANSAC_S-2000_System_…
"On-Line Punch Card System" "can read punch cards"
Page 23-5:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com//pdf/honeywell/multics/GB61-01B_Operator…
"different punch card decoding conventions"
While I prefer the term "punched card," I cannot agree with the
aforementioned capitalized generalizations.
Kyle
3:07 p.m.
On 09/10/2015 08:40 AM, Kyle Owen wrote:
On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 7:52 AM, Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org>
wrote:
One popular term for them was "IBM Cards". Given the market penetration
of Big Blue, back in the day, the term was probably pretty accurate.
--Chuck
look at ALL of the documentation of the period NO ONE called them
PUNCH cards
Section 7:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/burroughs/200-21001B_B200_SeriesRefM…
"Punch card stock" "punch card peripherals" 
3:51 p.m.
On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Kyle Owen wrote:
On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 7:52 AM, Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
So THAT's what a "petard" looks like!
:D
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
look at ALL of the documentation of the period
NO ONE called them PUNCH cards
Section 7:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/burroughs/200-21001B_B200_SeriesRefM…
"Punch card stock" "punch card peripherals"
Second to last page:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/univac/terminals/brochures/U5219_DCT…
"punch card reading and handling"
3rd page in PDF:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/2000TSB/36000-91001_HP2000_contri…
"Punch card equipment test"
Section 5.3:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/philco/s-2000/TRANSAC_S-2000_System_…
"On-Line Punch Card System" "can read punch cards"
Page 23-5:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com//pdf/honeywell/multics/GB61-01B_Operator…
"different punch card decoding conventions"
While I prefer the term "punched card," I cannot agree with the
aforementioned capitalized generalizations.
1:35 p.m.
From: Al Kossow
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 5:53 AM
On 9/10/15 4:38 AM, simon wrote:
they are PUNCHED cards
look at ALL of the documentation of the period
NO ONE called them PUNCH cards
Al,
I have to disagree with you, based on 46 years of working with the damned
things. Usage trumps prescriptivism in the form of documentation: Even
the keypunch operators of my youth called them "punch cards".
Best regards,
Your friend
Rich
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
11:22 a.m.
punchcard or PUNCH or PUNCHED card, still nice work. Thanks for sharing.
Lee C.
On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 4:38 AM, simon <simski at dds.nl> wrote:
Hi All,
just to let you know that i've made a vector graphics file for A hollerith
punchcard.
https://hack42.nl/wiki/Bestand:Punchcard.svg
enjoy
--
Met vriendelijke Groet,
Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl
--
Lee Courtney
+1-650-704-3934 cell
11:54 a.m.
Hi Lee.
Thanks. feel free to rename the file to anything you like. :-)
I decided to ignore rude yelling people. Being right and being polite
are two completely different things.
btw. in the Netherlands where I live, they are called ponskaarten and
are nowhere to be find also. We only have one box of fresh cards and one
box of used cards with our IBM 029. Of course the unused cards stay in
the depot until we can do something usefull with them. That is why I
made this file. As soon as I find a good local supply of the right type
of paper, the cards can be reproduced. :-)
Simon from hack42.nl
On 10-09-15 17:22, Lee Courtney wrote:
punchcard or PUNCH or PUNCHED card, still nice work.
Thanks for sharing.
Lee C.
On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 4:38 AM, simon <simski at dds.nl> wrote:
--
Met vriendelijke Groet,
Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl
Hi All,
just to let you know that i've made a vector graphics file for A hollerith
punchcard.
https://hack42.nl/wiki/Bestand:Punchcard.svg
enjoy
--
Met vriendelijke Groet,
Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl
noon
btw. in the Netherlands where I live, they are called
ponskaarten and are
nowhere to be find also. We only have one box of fresh cards and one box of
used cards with our IBM 029. Of course the unused cards stay in the depot
until we can do something usefull with them. That is why I made this file.
As soon as I find a good local supply of the right type of paper, the cards
can be reproduced. :-)
If you find a source of paper stock that works, please let everyone
know about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made
again. It is a specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.
--
Will
12:08 p.m.
If you find a source of paper stock that works, please
let everyone
know about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made
again. It is a specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.
What is different about it? Thickness? Weight/square metre? Density?
Impregnated with something?
-tony
12:56 p.m.
Its hard to explain. it feels tough and bendable, but it is thinner as
you would expect from the toughness.
On 10-09-15 18:08, tony duell wrote:
--
Met vriendelijke Groet,
Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl
If you find a source of paper stock that works,
please let everyone
know about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made
again. It is a specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.
What is different about it? Thickness? Weight/square metre? Density?
Impregnated with something?
-tony
2:40 p.m.
I have a few old ... let's just say Hollerith cards ... LOL ... and the
stock feels a little reminiscent of that of a manilla folder or 3x5 card,
but slightly thicker. It's kind of an odd basis weight ... too heavy for
cheap folders, too light for expensive folders ... wouldn't be amenable to
running through a printer due to the rigidity ... so probably very few
applications for that particular grade of paper besides making Hollerith
cards ... I'm not totally surprised it would be hard to find these days.
Best,
Sean
On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 12:56 PM, simon <simski at dds.nl> wrote:
Its hard to explain. it feels tough and bendable, but
it is thinner as you
would expect from the toughness.
On 10-09-15 18:08, tony duell wrote:
If you find a source of paper stock that works, please let everyone
--
Met vriendelijke Groet,
Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl
know about it. The real paper is gone, and will
likely never be made
again. It is a specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.
What is different about it? Thickness? Weight/square metre? Density?
Impregnated with something?
-tony
2:50 p.m.
On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Sean Caron wrote:
I have a few old ... let's just say Hollerith
cards ... LOL ... and the
stock feels a little reminiscent of that of a manilla folder or 3x5 card,
but slightly thicker. It's kind of an odd basis weight ... too heavy for
cheap folders, too light for expensive folders ... wouldn't be amenable to
running through a printer due to the rigidity ... so probably very few
applications for that particular grade of paper besides making Hollerith
cards ... I'm not totally surprised it would be hard to find these days.
It will go through the [almost] straight optional paper path of laser
printers and inkjets. (Not the S curves)
2:57 p.m.
It will go through the [almost] straight optional
paper path of laser
printers and inkjets. (Not the S curves)
I'll bet it will go through a Sanders 12/7 dot matrix printer too. That has a
totallly
straight paper path. Paper in at the top, out at the bottom (strangely...)
However, none of the messages have explained why Will said it is
'extremely difficult to make'. That to me suggests something special
about the card stock.
-tony
4:32 p.m.
On Sep 10, 2015, at 2:40 PM, Sean Caron <scaron at
umich.edu> wrote:
I have a few old ... let's just say Hollerith cards ... LOL ... and the
stock feels a little reminiscent of that of a manilla folder or 3x5 card,
but slightly thicker. It's kind of an odd basis weight ... too heavy for
cheap folders, too light for expensive folders ... wouldn't be amenable to
running through a printer due to the rigidity ... so probably very few
applications for that particular grade of paper besides making Hollerith
cards ... I'm not totally surprised it would be hard to find these days.
Wikipedia mentions the thickness spec: 0.007 inches (180 ?m) thick. And it refers to ANSI
and ISO standards that specify the card in more detail, but of course those are the kind
of unfriendly standards that you have to pay for.
Card stock exists in a large number of varieties. It may be perfectly straightforward if
you look in a paper company catalog (the kind that supplies paper to print shops). For
example, with a quick look at Mohawk Paper company I see a dozen different papers.
Picking one of them ("Options") shows a very smooth paper in 13 different
thickness specs from .0036 to .0185 inches -- and .0069 is one of the choices listed.
paul
5:34 p.m.
Card stock exists in a large number of varieties. It
may be perfectly straightforward if you look in a paper company catalog (the kind that
supplies paper to print shops). For example, with a quick look at Mohawk Paper company I
see a dozen different papers. Picking one of them ("Options") shows a very
smooth paper in 13 different thickness specs from .0036 to .0185 inches -- and .0069 is
one of the choices listed.
There is much more to it than just thickness.
When I was cleaning out Cardamation and talking to the owners, they
talked about the problems they had when the last mill shut down
punched card stock, and the best solution they came up with just did
not work well. The stock is very much a specialty item, due to its
strict specifications. The mills treated is so special that the
workers making the stuff were paid by how much usable stock they
produced, much to the dislike of the unions. Because of this, the
mills and unions basically said that no amount of money would restart
the lines.
--
Will
2:47 p.m.
>> If you find a source of paper stock that
works, please let everyone
>> know about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made
>> again. It is a specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.
> What is different about it? Thickness? Weight/square metre? Density?
> Impregnated with something?
On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, simon wrote:
Its hard to explain. it feels tough and bendable, but
it is thinner as you
would expect from the toughness.
Also, had to have the right friction to slide through, but catch on the
rollers. CDC's optical card readers came later, and made dramatic
improvements in DP.
In those days, the cardstock was extremely available, in large sheets and
in precut blanks, in a variety of colors. Print-shops abounded who would
do custom cards, if your business thought that it needed them.
And yet, some card readers were amazingly tolerant!
For example, half a century ago, CBS had a bunch of projects, such as the
National Driver's Test (1966). IBM provided the hardware and software.
They decided to give out Port-A-Punch cards, which were 80 column cards
with every other column of holes pre-perforated, so that anybody could
take a special stylus or a random pencil and create their own hanging
chips/"Chads". But, how to recollect them? They actually had people
stick a stamp on them and MAIL them! ("Business Reply Mail" would have
shifted the franking burden, otherwise it would have made MUCH more sense)
They then successfully ran them through the card reader of a 360! Keep in
mind that it was an IBM PR stunt, so they had a CE standing next to the
reader, clearing jams in real-time. I wonder if IBM cheated and modified
the input maw?
So, the specific card-stock is critical, but it worked with a postage
stamp stuck to it?
Although the hardware reliability was a welcome surprise (I wonder how my
life would have gone if it hadn't), the software wasn't. The live
statistics weren't adding up close enough to 100%! On camera, Walter
Cronkite was stalling, and right behind him, my father was frantically
manually adding the numbers. Starting a week later, there were a copy of
McCracken FORTRAN and Decima Anderson's book on my parent's coffee table.
Instead of continuing to use 084 sorters, we learned a little FORTRAN.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
2:57 p.m.
For a while many utility bills etc. were sent out
with prepunched cards containing the customer and
billing information, to be mailed back with your
payment for proper allocation.
m
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Cisin" <cisin at xenosoft.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts"
<cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: punchcard svg file available
>> If you
find a source of paper stock that
>> works, please let everyone
>> know about it. The real paper is gone, and
>> will likely never be made
>> again. It is a specialized stock that is
>> extremely difficult to make.
> What is different about it? Thickness?
> Weight/square metre? Density?
> Impregnated with something?
On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, simon wrote:
Its hard to explain. it feels tough and
bendable, but it is thinner as you would expect
from the toughness.
Also, had to have the right friction to slide
through, but catch on the rollers. CDC's
optical card readers came later, and made
dramatic improvements in DP.
In those days, the cardstock was extremely
available, in large sheets and in precut blanks,
in a variety of colors. Print-shops abounded
who would do custom cards, if your business
thought that it needed them.
And yet, some card readers were amazingly
tolerant!
For example, half a century ago, CBS had a bunch
of projects, such as the National Driver's Test
(1966). IBM provided the hardware and software.
They decided to give out Port-A-Punch cards,
which were 80 column cards with every other
column of holes pre-perforated, so that anybody
could take a special stylus or a random pencil
and create their own hanging chips/"Chads".
But, how to recollect them? They actually had
people stick a stamp on them and MAIL them!
("Business Reply Mail" would have shifted the
franking burden, otherwise it would have made
MUCH more sense) They then successfully ran them
through the card reader of a 360! Keep in mind
that it was an IBM PR stunt, so they had a CE
standing next to the reader, clearing jams in
real-time. I wonder if IBM cheated and modified
the input maw?
So, the specific card-stock is critical, but it
worked with a postage stamp stuck to it?
Although the hardware reliability was a welcome
surprise (I wonder how my life would have gone
if it hadn't), the software wasn't. The live
statistics weren't adding up close enough to
100%! On camera, Walter Cronkite was stalling,
and right behind him, my father was frantically
manually adding the numbers. Starting a week
later, there were a copy of McCracken FORTRAN
and Decima Anderson's book on my parent's coffee
table.
Instead of continuing to use 084 sorters, we
learned a little FORTRAN.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
3:04 p.m.
On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Mike Stein wrote:
For a while many utility bills etc. were sent out with
prepunched cards
containing the customer and billing information, to be mailed back with your
payment for proper allocation.
A guy that I went to school with, would always take those utility bills,
and before sending them back, would punch "/*" in the first two columns.
(NOTE: we're talking 360 JCL, not C source code)
5:38 p.m.
On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Mike Stein wrote:
This is at least the 2nd time I've seen this message today. Mailman gone
mental on us Jay?
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
For a while many utility bills etc. were sent out
with prepunched cards
containing the customer and billing information, to be mailed back with
your payment for proper allocation.
A guy that I went to school with, would always take those utility bills, and
before sending them back, would punch "/*" in the first two columns.
(NOTE: we're talking 360 JCL, not C source code) 
6:14 p.m.
On 2015-Sep-10, at 2:53 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, geneb wrote:
I've had duplicates coming in bunches at some point in the day for awhile.
The duplicates tend to be addressed to cctech, although I can't categorically say that
they all are.
This is at least the 2nd time I've seen this
message today. Mailman gone mental on us Jay?
Some of the messages might be worth getting more than once. Not that one.
I think that I got EVERY message twice. Is this still CCTECH/CCTALK issues? 
6:39 p.m.
Question: Is there a way to edit the SVG file to produce a custom message?
Thanks,
Marc
On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 2:38 PM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Mike Stein wrote:
This is at least the 2nd time I've seen this message today. Mailman gone
mental on us Jay?
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
For a while many utility bills etc. were sent out
with prepunched cards
containing the customer and billing information, to be mailed back with
your payment for proper allocation.
A guy that I went to school with, would always take those utility bills,
and before sending them back, would punch "/*" in the first two columns.
(NOTE: we're talking 360 JCL, not C source code)
11 Sep
11 Sep
2:27 a.m.
shure. go ahead. the svg has layers.
top to bottom:
demo (with the dot matrix text)
holes (all the holes, but not with a solid fill
print (the numbers)
card (the card itself)
As I made the original card in illustrator on a mac three years ago and
I'm a "switcher" to linux, I changed the format to svg for portability.
in translation, the dot matrix font was lost (or it did'nt exist in the
first place. I could have made the font with separate dots)
simon
On 11-09-15 00:39, Marc Howard wrote:
Question: Is there a way to edit the SVG file to
produce a custom message?
Thanks,
Marc
On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 2:38 PM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
--
Met vriendelijke Groet,
Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl
On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Mike Stein wrote:
This is at least the 2nd time I've seen this message today. Mailman gone
mental on us Jay?
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
For a while many utility bills etc. were sent out
with prepunched cards
containing the customer and billing information, to be mailed back with
your payment for proper allocation.
A guy that I went to school with, would always take those utility bills,
and before sending them back, would punch "/*" in the first two columns.
(NOTE: we're talking 360 JCL, not C source code)
10 Sep
10 Sep
3:10 p.m.
Where I first worked we punched duplicate cards, one which went out with the
bill and one which we kept in a box. When the money came in we used the
duplicate from the box to produce daily listings which were reconciled
against the bank statements. Then after a month we could produce reminder
letters from the remaining cards...
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike
Stein
Sent: 10 September 2015 19:58
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: punchcard svg file available
For a while many utility bills etc. were sent out with prepunched cards
containing the customer and billing information, to be mailed back with
your
payment for proper allocation.
m
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Cisin" <cisin at xenosoft.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts"
<cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: punchcard svg file available
>>>> If you find a source of paper stock that
>>>> works, please let everyone
>>>> know about it. The real paper is gone, and
>>>> will likely never be made
>>>> again. It is a specialized stock that is
>>>> extremely difficult to make.
>>> What is different about it? Thickness?
>>> Weight/square metre? Density?
>>> Impregnated with something?
>
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, simon wrote:
>> Its hard to explain. it feels tough and
>> bendable, but it is thinner as you would expect
>> from the toughness.
>
> Also, had to have the right friction to slide
> through, but catch on the rollers. CDC's
> optical card readers came later, and made
> dramatic improvements in DP.
>
> In those days, the cardstock was extremely
> available, in large sheets and in precut blanks,
> in a variety of colors. Print-shops abounded
> who would do custom cards, if your business
> thought that it needed them.
>
>
> And yet, some card readers were amazingly
> tolerant!
>
> For example, half a century ago, CBS had a bunch
> of projects, such as the National Driver's Test
> (1966). IBM provided the hardware and software.
> They decided to give out Port-A-Punch cards,
> which were 80 column cards with every other
> column of holes pre-perforated, so that anybody
> could take a special stylus or a random pencil
> and create their own hanging chips/"Chads".
> But, how to recollect them? They actually had
> people stick a stamp on them and MAIL them!
> ("Business Reply Mail" would have shifted the
> franking burden, otherwise it would have made
> MUCH more sense) They then successfully ran them
> through the card reader of a 360! Keep in mind
> that it was an IBM PR stunt, so they had a CE
> standing next to the reader, clearing jams in
> real-time. I wonder if IBM cheated and modified
> the input maw?
>
> So, the specific card-stock is critical, but it
> worked with a postage stamp stuck to it?
>
> Although the hardware reliability was a welcome
> surprise (I wonder how my life would have gone
> if it hadn't), the software wasn't. The live
> statistics weren't adding up close enough to
> 100%! On camera, Walter Cronkite was stalling,
> and right behind him, my father was frantically
> manually adding the numbers. Starting a week
> later, there were a copy of McCracken FORTRAN
> and Decima Anderson's book on my parent's coffee
> table.
> Instead of continuing to use 084 sorters, we
> learned a little FORTRAN.
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
3:04 p.m.
On 09/10/2015 11:47 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
In those days, the cardstock was extremely available,
in large sheets
and in precut blanks, in a variety of colors. Print-shops abounded
who would do custom cards, if your business thought that it needed
them.
To me, the stock feels very similar to the stock used for our
vote-by-mail mark-sense ballots here in Oregon.
I have no specifics on that, however.
Does anyone still use aperture cards or time cards? Could be another
source of stock.
--Chuck
5:32 p.m.
On 9/10/2015 2:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 09/10/2015 11:47 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
To me, the stock feels very similar to the stock used for our
vote-by-mail mark-sense ballots here in Oregon.
Or the infamous "hanging chad" punch(ed) ;) cards from son of Bush's
first election. I got an operational Documation card reader from Texas
a few years back that was retired as a result of that fiaso.
JRJ
6:29 p.m.
On 09/10/2015 02:32 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
Or the infamous "hanging chad" punch(ed) ;)
cards from son of
Bush's first election. I got an operational Documation card reader
from Texas a few years back that was retired as a result of that
fiaso.
Oregon is a vote-by-mail state exclusively. There were no polling
places for the 2000 Presidential election. Before that, we were a
conventional come to a polling place and use a small punch tool state.
Never saw a voting machine. The current mail system (well, you can turn
in a ballot at several places in most cities; mail needn't be used) uses
mark-sense cards. Unlike the old mark-sense cards, you're instructed to
fill the space in with black ink, not pencil.
But cards are the operative system currently.
Which reminds me--I went over to the local DMV to renew my "papers".
Since the terrorism craze, the state has changed the rules for verifying
identity to now include a birth certificate (heaven knows why). What
shocked me was the process. Each clerk took the about-to-expire ID and
a paper form filled out by the applicant and painstakingly re-entered
all the information on a simple dumb keyboard terminal, then swiveled
the terminal to the customer to verify the information and manuall
correct it if necessary. Positioning to the appropriate field was done
via cursor keystrokes--not a mouse or glidepad or touchscreen anywhere
to be seen.
All of this typing, cursor movement, etc. by itself took more than 10
minutes for each customer.
Unbelievable.
--Chuck
6:47 p.m.
It takes that long because the clerks have no idea what tab does. Watch somebody who does
and see how fast they can fill in a form. Mouse actually slows down data entry a lot.
Joe
On Sep 10, 2015, at 6:29 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at
sydex.com> wrote:
On 09/10/2015 02:32 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
Or the infamous "hanging chad" punch(ed) ;) cards from son of
Bush's first election. I got an operational Documation card reader
from Texas a few years back that was retired as a result of that
fiaso.
Oregon is a vote-by-mail state exclusively. There were no polling places for the 2000
Presidential election. Before that, we were a conventional come to a polling place and
use a small punch tool state. Never saw a voting machine. The current mail system (well,
you can turn in a ballot at several places in most cities; mail needn't be used) uses
mark-sense cards. Unlike the old mark-sense cards, you're instructed to fill the
space in with black ink, not pencil.
But cards are the operative system currently.
Which reminds me--I went over to the local DMV to renew my "papers". Since the
terrorism craze, the state has changed the rules for verifying identity to now include a
birth certificate (heaven knows why). What shocked me was the process. Each clerk took
the about-to-expire ID and a paper form filled out by the applicant and painstakingly
re-entered all the information on a simple dumb keyboard terminal, then swiveled the
terminal to the customer to verify the information and manuall correct it if necessary.
Positioning to the appropriate field was done via cursor keystrokes--not a mouse or
glidepad or touchscreen anywhere to be seen.
All of this typing, cursor movement, etc. by itself took more than 10 minutes for each
customer.
Unbelievable.
--Chuck
6:54 p.m.
On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Joseph Lang wrote:
It takes that long because the clerks have no idea
what tab does. Watch
somebody who does and see how fast they can fill in a form. Mouse
actually slows down data entry a lot.
yes.
Is there any reason why driver's license number couldn't be entered, to
provide a filled in form of the previous data, subject only to changes?
7:02 p.m.
Lazy programmers. Poor specs for project. Clueless project managers.
Doesn't seem a simple database query should be all that hard.
Don't get me started on that real ID garbage. Not one piece of required
"proof" included a photo....
Joe
On Sep 10, 2015, at 6:54 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at
xenosoft.com> wrote:
On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Joseph Lang wrote:
It takes that long because the clerks have no idea what tab does. Watch somebody who does
and see how fast they can fill in a form. Mouse actually slows down data entry a lot.
yes.
Is there any reason why driver's license number couldn't be entered, to provide a
filled in form of the previous data, subject only to changes?
7:44 p.m.
On 9/10/2015 6:02 PM, Joseph Lang wrote:
Lazy programmers. Poor specs for project. Clueless
project managers.
Doesn't seem a simple database query should be all that hard.
Don't get me started on that real ID garbage. Not one piece of required
"proof" included a photo....
Joe
That is the difference between legal presence and RealID. The idea
between legal presence is that states are required to verify that you
are not an illegal immigrant. Hence, no photo was involved.
Yes, RealID was ill-conceived. (So was legal presence, for that matter).
JRJ
7:22 p.m.
On 09/10/2015 03:54 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Joseph Lang wrote:
That was the nub of my observation. Absolutely *NO* previous
information was displayed on the terminal screen. The clerk had to
enter what amounts to the information already in the database manually.
Insane. The clerk that serviced me entered my SSN wrong three times in
a row.
--Chuck
It takes that long because the clerks have no
idea what tab does.
Watch somebody who does and see how fast they can fill in a form.
Mouse actually slows down data entry a lot.
yes. Is there any reason why driver's license number couldn't be
entered, to provide a filled in form of the previous data, subject
only to changes?
7:09 p.m.
On 9/10/2015 5:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 09/10/2015 02:32 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
Which reminds me--I went over to the local DMV to renew my "papers".
Since the terrorism craze, the state has changed the rules for verifying
identity to now include a birth certificate (heaven knows why). What
shocked me was the process. Each clerk took the about-to-expire ID and
a paper form filled out by the applicant and painstakingly re-entered
all the information on a simple dumb keyboard terminal, then swiveled
the terminal to the customer to verify the information and manuall
correct it if necessary. Positioning to the appropriate field was done
via cursor keystrokes--not a mouse or glidepad or touchscreen anywhere
to be seen.
The states really don't have a whole lot of choice. It's called legal
presence. Has more to do with immigration than 9/11/2001. The law that
resulted from the latter is called RealID, but there are still legal
challenges, and implementation for ordinary folks (e.g., for boarding
airplanes) has been been put off until at least 2016.
http://www.dhs.gov/real-id-public-faqs
Wisconsin has a new system as well, including the ability to scan
paperwork, capable of complying with the stringent RealID law, if it
ever actually becomes effective. But WI can at least start by reading
the 2-D barcode on the back of the expiring/expired license. ;)
JRJ
6:42 p.m.
The card stock should be available. It's 90 lb card stock. The same stuff ATB airline
tickets are printed on.
The die to cut to size May cost a bit....
Joe
On Sep 10, 2015, at 12:56 PM, simon <simski at
dds.nl> wrote:
Its hard to explain. it feels tough and bendable, but it is thinner as you would expect
from the toughness.
On 10-09-15 18:08, tony duell wrote:
--
Met vriendelijke Groet,
Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl If you find a source of paper stock that works,
please let everyone
know about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made
again. It is a specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.
What is different about it? Thickness? Weight/square metre? Density?
Impregnated with something?
-tony
6:52 p.m.
On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Joseph Lang wrote:
The card stock should be available. It's 90 lb
card stock. The same
stuff ATB airline tickets are printed on.
The die to cut to size May cost a bit....
Conventional paper shear for sides, ends, and corner, plus conventional
corner rounding on three corners. Any competent bindery.
Die would be handy if making large quantities.
7:41 p.m.
The card stock should be available. It's 90 lb
card stock. The same stuff ATB airline tickets are printed on.
The die to cut to size May cost a bit....
No, it it very specialized. There is much more than thickness to
consider - friction, durability, stiffness, hygroscopic-ness,
printability, punchability, etc..
--
Will
7:49 p.m.
I agree. But the ATB spec IS punch card stock. Picked for all the reasons you listed. They
make lots of it.
Joe
On Sep 10, 2015, at 7:41 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote:
The card stock
should be available. It's 90 lb card stock. The same stuff ATB airline tickets are
printed on.
The die to cut to size May cost a bit....
No, it it very specialized. There is much more than thickness to
consider - friction, durability, stiffness, hygroscopic-ness,
printability, punchability, etc..
--
Will
9:04 p.m.
I agree. But the ATB spec IS punch card stock. Picked
for all the reasons you listed. They make lots of it.
I would love to be proven wrong, but I do not think that is true
anymore. I think the stock spec changed in the 1980s when the magnetic
strip was added (which might be enough to screw up old card handling
anyway). The IATA says that no more stock is being issued (and that
news is from 2008!).
--
Will
7:43 p.m.
The card stock should be available. It's 90 lb
card stock. The same stuff ATB airline tickets are printed on.
The die to cut to size May cost a bit....
Also, cutting to size should not be a problem. Any modern print shop
should have a nice big computer controlled paper cutter that would do
a fine job.
--
Will
7:55 p.m.
Supposedly these guys have the IBM dies and as of last year, were still making/selling new
tab cards. The CHM was investigating them as a source at one point but I believe they now
have more cards than they'll ever need. -C
http://www.californiatabcard.com/Tab_Cards.html
On Sep 10, 2015, at 6:43 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
The card stock
should be available. It's 90 lb card stock. The same stuff ATB airline tickets are
printed on.
The die to cut to size May cost a bit....
Also, cutting to size should not be a problem. Any modern print shop
should have a nice big computer controlled paper cutter that would do
a fine job.
--
Will
12:21 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William
Donzelli
Sent: 10 September 2015 17:00
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: punchcard svg file available
I have been looking in the UK and getting near that thickness is hard. I havn't been
able to get my reader working yet...
Dave
G4UGM
btw. in the Netherlands where I live, they are
called ponskaarten and
are nowhere to be find also. We only have one box of fresh cards and
one box of used cards with our IBM 029. Of course the unused cards
stay in the depot until we can do something usefull with them. That is why I
made
this file.
As soon as I find a good local supply of the
right type of paper, the
cards can be reproduced. :-)
If you find a source of paper stock that works, please let everyone know
about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made again. It is a
specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.
--
Will 
12:26 p.m.
On 9/10/2015 9:00 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
General Credit Forms in St Louis had it and the patterns and my friend
Al Weber had cards made when he worked there. The problem with making
more was the feasibility of setting their lines up to run the card, and
at the time the paper was no problem (into the 90's).
I'll check with him and see if he knows of any problem getting the paper.
GCF makes the NCR snap forms for credit cards, and owns the patents to
that technology. So making the cards were not a problem for them as
their line was nearly set up exactly for that already.
thanks
Jim
btw. in the
Netherlands where I live, they are called ponskaarten and are
nowhere to be find also. We only have one box of fresh cards and one box of
used cards with our IBM 029. Of course the unused cards stay in the depot
until we can do something usefull with them. That is why I made this file.
As soon as I find a good local supply of the right type of paper, the cards
can be reproduced. :-)
If you find a source of paper stock that works, please let
everyone
know about it. The real paper is gone, and will likely never be made
again. It is a specialized stock that is extremely difficult to make.
--
Will 
12:36 p.m.
Al - we accept that you are a CLI in a world of GUIs! :-)
Lee C.
On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 9:33 AM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
On 9/10/15 8:54 AM, Simon Claessen wrote:
--
Lee Courtney
+1-650-704-3934 cell
Being right and being polite are two completely
different things.
And no one has ever accused me of being polite.
12:53 p.m.
A nice guy at greenkeys spotted an error in the printed characters. the
c cedille should actually be a cent char.
I fixed it.
Simon
On 10-09-15 17:54, Simon Claessen wrote:
Hi Lee.
Thanks. feel free to rename the file to anything you like. :-)
I decided to ignore rude yelling people. Being right and being polite
are two completely different things.
btw. in the Netherlands where I live, they are called ponskaarten and
are nowhere to be find also. We only have one box of fresh cards and one
box of used cards with our IBM 029. Of course the unused cards stay in
the depot until we can do something usefull with them. That is why I
made this file. As soon as I find a good local supply of the right type
of paper, the cards can be reproduced. :-)
Simon from hack42.nl
On 10-09-15 17:22, Lee Courtney wrote:
--
Met vriendelijke Groet,
Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl
punchcard or PUNCH or PUNCHED card, still nice
work. Thanks for sharing.
Lee C.
On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 4:38 AM, simon <simski at dds.nl> wrote:
Hi All,
just to let you know that i've made a vector graphics file for A
hollerith
punchcard.
https://hack42.nl/wiki/Bestand:Punchcard.svg
enjoy
--
Met vriendelijke Groet,
Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl
2:28 p.m.
Go ahead. this drawing is published as creative commons and the svg is
in parts.
the text and holes is a separate layer. I even included a layer with all
holes, so just make the right holes white and there you are. The text
above is another thing though. the characters are als separate drawings,
but I foud out that the dots are not separate. oh well, not a big issue.
Use the grid.
btw, I work in Inkscape. not the best program around, but it does the job.
Simon
On 10-09-15 20:01, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 09/10/2015 09:53 AM, simon wrote:
--
Met vriendelijke Groet,
Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl
A nice guy at greenkeys spotted an error in the
printed characters.
the c cedille should actually be a cent char.
So, EBCDIC. How about a few of the other character sets in use at the
time?
That might be interesting.
--Chuck
11 Sep
11 Sep
3:51 a.m.
On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Simon Claessen wrote:
btw. in the Netherlands where I live, they are called
ponskaarten and are
nowhere to be find also. We only have one box of fresh cards and one box of
used cards with our IBM 029. Of course the unused cards stay in the depot
until we can do something usefull with them. That is why I made this file. As
soon as I find a good local supply of the right type of paper, the cards can
be reproduced. :-)
Why don't you just buy new cards from Hummel? They still produce punch(ed)
cards, at least they did five years ago.
Christian
4:02 a.m.
Could not find anything on their web site...
On Sep 11, 2015 8:51 AM, "Christian Corti" <cc at
informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>
wrote:
On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Simon Claessen wrote:
btw. in the Netherlands where I live, they are
called ponskaarten and are
nowhere to be find also. We only have one box of fresh cards and one box of
used cards with our IBM 029. Of course the unused cards stay in the depot
until we can do something usefull with them. That is why I made this file.
As soon as I find a good local supply of the right type of paper, the cards
can be reproduced. :-)
Why don't you just buy new cards from Hummel? They still produce punch(ed)
cards, at least they did five years ago.
Christian
4:12 a.m.
On Fri, 11 Sep 2015, Dave Wade wrote:
Could not find anything on their web site...
You have to ask them directly, they should still have all the means
because they also do ATB stuff. That's what we did a few years ago, but
our "project" stalled because they wanted some obscure file format for the
printing (QuarkExpress that nobody uses here). But if you're fine with
really blank cards (i.e. no printing whatsoever) they should still be able
to deliver them.
Christian
4:56 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian
Corti
Sent: 11 September 2015 09:12
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: punchcard svg file available
On Fri, 11 Sep 2015, Dave Wade wrote:
because
Could not find anything on their web site...
You have to ask them directly, they should still have all the means they also do ATB stuff. That's what we did a few
years ago, but our
"project"
stalled because they wanted some obscure file format
for the printing
(QuarkExpress that nobody uses here). But if you're fine with really blank
cards (i.e. no printing whatsoever) they should still be able to deliver
them.
Christian
I think I have a copy of QuarkExpress somewhere.
5:03 a.m.
I have asked and will report back.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian
Corti
Sent: 11 September 2015 09:12
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: punchcard svg file available
On Fri, 11 Sep 2015, Dave Wade wrote:
because
Could not find anything on their web site...
You have to ask them directly, they should still have all the means they also do ATB stuff. That's what we did a few
years ago, but our
"project"
stalled because they wanted some obscure file format
for the printing
(QuarkExpress that nobody uses here). But if you're fine with really blank
cards (i.e. no printing whatsoever) they should still be able to deliver
them.
Christian
9:30 a.m.
Five years ago the paper stock was still available in the US, and you
could get cards from Cardamation as well.
--
Will
On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 3:51 AM, Christian Corti
<cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote:
On Thu, 10 Sep 2015, Simon Claessen wrote:
btw. in the Netherlands where I live, they are called ponskaarten and are
nowhere to be find also. We only have one box of fresh cards and one box of
used cards with our IBM 029. Of course the unused cards stay in the depot
until we can do something usefull with them. That is why I made this file.
As soon as I find a good local supply of the right type of paper, the cards
can be reproduced. :-)
Why don't you just buy new cards from Hummel? They still produce punch(ed)
cards, at least they did five years ago.
Christian
3238
days inactive
3239
days old
60 comments
23 participants
participants (23)
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aek＠bitsavers.org -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cc＠informatik.uni-stuttgart.de -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
coryheisterkamp＠gmail.com -
cramcram＠gmail.com -
cube1＠charter.net -
dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
hilpert＠cs.ubc.ca -
joe.lang.0000＠gmail.com -
jws＠jwsss.com -
kylevowen＠gmail.com -
leec2124＠gmail.com -
lproven＠gmail.com -
mhs.stein＠gmail.com -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
pontus＠Update.UU.SE -
RichA＠LivingComputerMuseum.org -
scaron＠umich.edu -
simski＠dds.nl -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com