12 Mar
2019
12 Mar
'19
7:10 p.m.
Hmmm, are these the atex racks seen lurking in the background of that recent storage space
trawl down near Houston?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-11-34-Minicomputer-With-Kennedy-Ta…
13 Mar
13 Mar
6:31 a.m.
On Mar 12, 2019, at 10:10 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Hmmm, are these the atex racks seen lurking in the background of that recent storage
space trawl down near Houston?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-11-34-Minicomputer-With-Kennedy-Ta…
Interesting. Atex is, or was at one time anyway, a manufacturer of typesetting systems
for newspapers. DEC was also in that business with Typeset-11 (TMS-11) but Atex was more
successful, certainly for smaller newspapers because it used less expensive PDP11 models.
The "multi-processor bus" thing is curious. And I wonder what the terminals are
like. If they are typesetting terminals, I think they support some sort of WYSIWYG
editing setup -- that too was a competitive advantage vs. the "mark-up" approach
(sort of like Runoff on steroids) that Typeset-11 offered. Looking at the keyboards would
give a clue.
The "11-34 minicomputer... J-11 CPU" description is a bit strange. Possibly a
dual CPU setup with one of each? But that seems strange because those two are from
different generations, and interfacing them together would be tricky and not all that
useful.
paul
6:41 a.m.
On 2019-03-13 9:31 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
Funny, I always associated it with big papers (I think the NYT used it?)
On Mar 12, 2019, at 10:10 PM, Fritz Mueller via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Hmmm, are these the atex racks seen lurking in the background of that recent storage
space trawl down near Houston?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-11-34-Minicomputer-With-Kennedy-Ta…
Interesting. Atex is, or was at one time anyway, a manufacturer of typesetting systems
for newspapers. DEC was also in that business with Typeset-11 (TMS-11) but Atex was more
successful, certainly for smaller newspapers because it used less expensive PDP11 models.
The "multi-processor bus" thing is curious.
And I wonder what the terminals are like. If they are typesetting terminals, I think they
support some sort of WYSIWYG editing setup -- that too was a competitive advantage vs. the
"mark-up" approach (sort of like Runoff on steroids) that Typeset-11 offered.
Looking at the keyboards would give a clue.
Pretty sure Atex was pre-wysiwyg. This article may provide some context
on that:
https://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/17/business/can-atex-keep-its-proprietary-p…
&
https://books.google.ca/books?id=IAGotP-IDocC&lpg=PA1827&ots=jEwR7s…
--Toby
The "11-34 minicomputer... J-11 CPU" description is a bit strange. Possibly a
dual CPU setup with one of each? But that seems strange because those two are from
different generations, and interfacing them together would be tricky and not all that
useful.
paul
9:56 a.m.
Atex, now Newscycle, also had a Classified Advertising system out at that time. I remember
reading a article somewhere saying that Atex was going to use the J11 for that system.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 13, 2019, at 06:41, Toby Thain via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2019-03-13 9:31 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk
wrote:
Funny, I always associated it with big papers (I think the NYT used it?)
On Mar 12, 2019, at 10:10 PM, Fritz Mueller via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Hmmm, are these the atex racks seen lurking in the background of that recent storage
space trawl down near Houston?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-11-34-Minicomputer-With-Kennedy-Ta…
Interesting. Atex is, or was at one time anyway, a manufacturer of typesetting systems
for newspapers. DEC was also in that business with Typeset-11 (TMS-11) but Atex was more
successful, certainly for smaller newspapers because it used less expensive PDP11 models.
The "multi-processor bus" thing is
curious. And I wonder what the terminals are like. If they are typesetting terminals, I
think they support some sort of WYSIWYG editing setup -- that too was a competitive
advantage vs. the "mark-up" approach (sort of like Runoff on steroids) that
Typeset-11 offered. Looking at the keyboards would give a clue.
Pretty sure Atex was pre-wysiwyg. This article may provide some context
on that:
https://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/17/business/can-atex-keep-its-proprietary-p…
&
https://books.google.ca/books?id=IAGotP-IDocC&lpg=PA1827&ots=jEwR7s…
--Toby
The "11-34 minicomputer... J-11 CPU" description is a bit strange. Possibly a
dual CPU setup with one of each? But that seems strange because those two are from
different generations, and interfacing them together would be tricky and not all that
useful.
paul
10:05 a.m.
On Mar 13, 2019, at 12:56 PM, Wayne S <wayne.sudol
at hotmail.com> wrote:
Atex, now Newscycle, also had a Classified Advertising system out at that time. I
remember reading a article somewhere saying that Atex was going to use the J11 for that
system.
So did DEC, the "classified management system" (CMS) was part of TMS-11. I
spent some interesting times bug fixing it on site in Van Nuys.
> On Mar 13, 2019, at 06:41, Toby Thain via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2019-03-13 9:31 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 12, 2019, at 10:10 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk <cctalk at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hmmm, are these the atex racks seen lurking in the background of that recent
storage space trawl down near Houston?
>>>
>>>
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-11-34-Minicomputer-With-Kennedy-Ta…
>>
>> Interesting. Atex is, or was at one time anyway, a manufacturer of typesetting
systems for newspapers. DEC was also in that business with Typeset-11 (TMS-11) but Atex
was more successful, certainly for smaller newspapers because it used less expensive PDP11
models.
>>
>
> Funny, I always associated it with big papers (I think the NYT used it?)
Could be. Your second reference mentions a max of 200 terminals; I'm pretty sure
TMS-11 couldn't go that high even on a four node cluster (the largest I remember, not
sure if in theory it could go higher).
>> The "multi-processor bus" thing is
curious. And I wonder what the terminals are like. If they are typesetting terminals, I
think they support some sort of WYSIWYG editing setup -- that too was a competitive
advantage vs. the "mark-up" approach (sort of like Runoff on steroids) that
Typeset-11 offered. Looking at the keyboards would give a clue.
>
> Pretty sure Atex was pre-wysiwyg. This article may provide some context
> on that:
>
>
>
https://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/17/business/can-atex-keep-its-proprietary-p…
>
> &
>
https://books.google.ca/books?id=IAGotP-IDocC&lpg=PA1827&ots=jEwR7s…
That talks about direct to plate, text and graphics. I meant just the text. On the DEC
product, you'd see a typical VT100 style typewriter font display, with line breaks and
hyphenation shown only after you did "send to J&H" to have the line breaks
calculated in a batch process. It wouldn't give you line breaks, or article length
which is important to editors, in real time. I think Atex did provide J&H in real
time. It might still have been typewriter font, so it wouldn't be a display showing
the actual text with the letter shapes as printed, but for a newspaper editor that's
not particularly important.
TMS-11 did support some specialized devices that could do more. There was the classified
page layout system using a Tek 4010 style display (4015? A BIG tube). And there was some
experimental work to extend that to news page layout though there wasn't much interest
in that apparently. And it could drive Harris 2200 terminals which were display ad
creation devices (full graphics WYSIWIG displays) using the ugliest network protocol
I've ever encountered. But the way the system was usually used (1978-1980 when I
worked on it) was that output was generated in single column wide strips of film, which
would then be pasted to page layout boards to produce the finished page layouts.
paul
11:37 a.m.
Paul, what was the timeframe when you worked on the system in Van Nuys?
I worked for a large newspaper starting in 1978 and they made their own 330 seat
Classified Sales Entry system because there wasn't anything out there that was big
enough.
It used Zentec ZMS-90 programmable terminals feeding Series /1 mini's that then fed
IBM 3032 mainframe.
I was wondering if DEC had that system available during that time.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 13, 2019, at 10:05, Paul Koning <paulkoning
at comcast.net> wrote:
On Mar 13, 2019, at 12:56 PM, Wayne S
<wayne.sudol at hotmail.com> wrote:
Atex, now Newscycle, also had a Classified Advertising system out at that time. I
remember reading a article somewhere saying that Atex was going to use the J11 for that
system.
So did DEC, the "classified management system" (CMS) was part of TMS-11. I
spent some interesting times bug fixing it on site in Van Nuys.
>> On Mar 13, 2019, at 06:41, Toby Thain via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> On 2019-03-13 9:31 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 12, 2019, at 10:10 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk <cctalk at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hmmm, are these the atex racks seen lurking in the background of that recent
storage space trawl down near Houston?
>>>
>>>
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-11-34-Minicomputer-With-Kennedy-Ta…
>>
>> Interesting. Atex is, or was at one time anyway, a manufacturer of typesetting
systems for newspapers. DEC was also in that business with Typeset-11 (TMS-11) but Atex
was more successful, certainly for smaller newspapers because it used less expensive PDP11
models.
>
> Funny, I always associated it with big papers (I think the NYT used it?)
Could be. Your second reference mentions a max of 200 terminals; I'm pretty sure
TMS-11 couldn't go that high even on a four node cluster (the largest I remember, not
sure if in theory it could go higher).
>> The "multi-processor bus" thing
is curious. And I wonder what the terminals are like. If they are typesetting terminals,
I think they support some sort of WYSIWYG editing setup -- that too was a competitive
advantage vs. the "mark-up" approach (sort of like Runoff on steroids) that
Typeset-11 offered. Looking at the keyboards would give a clue.
>
> Pretty sure Atex was pre-wysiwyg. This article may provide some context
> on that:
>
>
>
https://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/17/business/can-atex-keep-its-proprietary-p…
>
> &
>
https://books.google.ca/books?id=IAGotP-IDocC&lpg=PA1827&ots=jEwR7s…
That talks about direct to plate, text and graphics. I meant just the text. On the DEC
product, you'd see a typical VT100 style typewriter font display, with line breaks and
hyphenation shown only after you did "send to J&H" to have the line breaks
calculated in a batch process. It wouldn't give you line breaks, or article length
which is important to editors, in real time. I think Atex did provide J&H in real
time. It might still have been typewriter font, so it wouldn't be a display showing
the actual text with the letter shapes as printed, but for a newspaper editor that's
not particularly important.
TMS-11 did support some specialized devices that could do more. There was the classified
page layout system using a Tek 4010 style display (4015? A BIG tube). And there was some
experimental work to extend that to news page layout though there wasn't much interest
in that apparently. And it could drive Harris 2200 terminals which were display ad
creation devices (full graphics WYSIWIG displays) using the ugliest network protocol
I've ever encountered. But the way the system was usually used (1978-1980 when I
worked on it) was that output was generated in single column wide strips of film, which
would then be pasted to page layout boards to produce the finished page layouts.
paul
11:49 a.m.
Early 1979. I worked on TMS-11 from summer 1978 to summer 1980, as
"firefighter" -- traveling on-site support and software repair. I was scheduled
for CMS-11 training early 1979, but instead the Valley News developed a serious bug so I
was sent there to learn on the spot. :-)
Supposedly the Valley News was one of the biggest classified systems in the country, 50+
pages of ads on the peak day. DEC also had a system in Melbourne, Australia (I think) at
News Corp, which was somewhat bigger still. Or perhaps that was a bid that didn't
turn into a sale? Not sure. Still, those systems didn't have 300 terminals, the
likely limit was 100 or so I think. So if you had 330 I can see why that would be custom.
TMS-11 used 11/70 systems running IAS (trimmed down to look like RSX-11/D, the
timesharing part yanked out), with either VT61/t and/or VT71 terminals. The latter have
an LSI-11 inside to do full file local editing.
There was Typeset-10, I'm not sure how many customers that had but they were big.
Chicago Tribune, I think?
It was interesting to do field work for customers who need their system to be very
reliable because they have to produce "product" every single day. Pretty
amazing to get a job like that fresh out of college.
paul
On Mar 13, 2019, at 2:37 PM, Wayne S <Wayne.Sudol
at hotmail.com> wrote:
Paul, what was the timeframe when you worked on the system in Van Nuys?
I worked for a large newspaper starting in 1978 and they made their own 330 seat
Classified Sales Entry system because there wasn't anything out there that was big
enough.
It used Zentec ZMS-90 programmable terminals feeding Series /1 mini's that then fed
IBM 3032 mainframe.
I was wondering if DEC had that system available during that time.
Sent from my iPhone
12:05 p.m.
I echo the reliability requirement. Classified ad sales was the biggest revenue generator
back then so Newpapers would throw a lot of development money at them to make them
reliable. A classified sales rep would be on the phone to a customer, taking the text of
the ad and typing it directly into the system so you couldn't afford the system to
suddenly crash.
This happened to us. when the CSE system was replaced with one from Ctext using pc's
and OS/2 starting about 1097. After a while, the sales reps started jotting down of the
text on notepads because they knew the system might fail at any time.
Anyway you did have a very fun and cool job.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 13, 2019, at 11:49, Paul Koning <paulkoning
at comcast.net> wrote:
Early 1979. I worked on TMS-11 from summer 1978 to summer 1980, as
"firefighter" -- traveling on-site support and software repair. I was scheduled
for CMS-11 training early 1979, but instead the Valley News developed a serious bug so I
was sent there to learn on the spot. :-)
Supposedly the Valley News was one of the biggest classified systems in the country, 50+
pages of ads on the peak day. DEC also had a system in Melbourne, Australia (I think) at
News Corp, which was somewhat bigger still. Or perhaps that was a bid that didn't
turn into a sale? Not sure. Still, those systems didn't have 300 terminals, the
likely limit was 100 or so I think. So if you had 330 I can see why that would be custom.
TMS-11 used 11/70 systems running IAS (trimmed down to look like RSX-11/D, the
timesharing part yanked out), with either VT61/t and/or VT71 terminals. The latter have
an LSI-11 inside to do full file local editing.
There was Typeset-10, I'm not sure how many customers that had but they were big.
Chicago Tribune, I think?
It was interesting to do field work for customers who need their system to be very
reliable because they have to produce "product" every single day. Pretty
amazing to get a job like that fresh out of college.
paul
On Mar 13, 2019, at 2:37 PM, Wayne S
<Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com> wrote:
Paul, what was the timeframe when you worked on the system in Van Nuys?
I worked for a large newspaper starting in 1978 and they made their own 330 seat
Classified Sales Entry system because there wasn't anything out there that was big
enough.
It used Zentec ZMS-90 programmable terminals feeding Series /1 mini's that then fed
IBM 3032 mainframe.
I was wondering if DEC had that system available during that time.
Sent from my iPhone
22 Mar
22 Mar
8:11 p.m.
New subject: Refillable spray can
23 Mar
23 Mar
4:50 a.m.
New subject: Refillable spray can
Looks like a great idea but the reviews say otherwise. Dangerous even. I found this.?
https://duplicolor.com/product/perfect-match-premium-automotive-paint.
Now I just need to match the color from a paint chip.
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 11:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote: https://www.amazon.com/Jacquard-YouCAN-Refillable-Powered-Spray/dp/B0748KZF…
5:14 a.m.
New subject: Refillable spray can
On March 23, 2019 at 7:50 AM Brian Roth via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Looks like a great idea but the reviews say otherwise. Dangerous even. I found this.?
https://duplicolor.com/product/perfect-match-premium-automotive-paint.
Now I just need to match the color from a paint chip.
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 11:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote: https://www.amazon.com/Jacquard-YouCAN-Refillable-Powered-Spray/dp/B0748KZF…
How about a cheap airbrush kit?
https://www.amazon.com/Testors-4030-Amazing-Airbrush-Set/dp/B0013MURE8/ref=…
"He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels
"The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org
5:18 a.m.
New subject: Refillable spray can
Thought about that too. They have them at the local Harbor Freight as well.
How about a cheap airbrush kit?
https://www.amazon.com/Testors-4030-Amazing-Airbrush-Set/dp/B0013MURE8/ref=…
On Saturday, March 23, 2019, 7:14:44 AM CDT, Will Cooke via cctalk <cctalk at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
On March 23, 2019 at 7:50 AM Brian Roth via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Looks like a great idea but the reviews say otherwise. Dangerous even. I found this.?
https://duplicolor.com/product/perfect-match-premium-automotive-paint.
Now I just need to match the color from a paint chip.
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
?
? On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 11:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote: https://www.amazon.com/Jacquard-YouCAN-Refillable-Powered-Spray/dp/B0748KZF…
How about a cheap airbrush kit?
https://www.amazon.com/Testors-4030-Amazing-Airbrush-Set/dp/B0013MURE8/ref=…
"He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels
"The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org
24 Mar
24 Mar
2:34 a.m.
New subject: Refillable spray can
Looks like a great idea but the reviews say otherwise.
Dangerous even.
How about a cheap airbrush kit?
Reminds me of something I picked up years back, and haven't seen another
of - a rechargeable compressed air sprayer. Works more or less like the
disposable "canned air" sprayers you get by the half dozen at Fry's or
Microcenter, complete with the plastic straw to direct the air. But this
one had a bicycle pump valve on the bottom so you could refill it as needed.
I've taken a superficial look or three over the years, but haven't found
another. And I've mislaid the one from years back, so I don't have a
brand or product name.
Anybody have a line on that sort of thing? Maybe what Fred linked will
serve...
--S.
8:59 a.m.
New subject: Refillable spray can
On 3/24/19 2:34 AM, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote:
Isn't that what Fred pointed to?
--Chuck
Looks like a
great idea but the reviews say otherwise. Dangerous even.
How about a cheap airbrush kit?
Reminds me of something I picked up years back, and haven't seen another
of - a rechargeable compressed air sprayer. Works more or less like the
disposable "canned air" sprayers you get by the half dozen at Fry's or
Microcenter, complete with the plastic straw to direct the air. But this
one had a bicycle pump valve on the bottom so you could refill it as
needed.
10:43 a.m.
New subject: Refillable spray can
> Reminds me of something I picked up years back,
and haven't seen another
> of - a rechargeable compressed air sprayer. Works more or less like the
> disposable "canned air" sprayers you get by the half dozen at Fry's or
> Microcenter, complete with the plastic straw to direct the air. But this
> one had a bicycle pump valve on the bottom so you could refill it as
> needed.
On Sun, 24 Mar 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
Isn't that what Fred pointed to?
Almost, and that part overlaps.
I pointed to a refillable liquid sprayer. (we were talking about spraying
paint)
He's asking about a refillable air duster. (as opposed to the disposable
"Dust-Off" from Fry's, etc.)
Long ago, I used a small air tank under the bench (a portable tire
refiller), with a hose and a nozzle.
Similar to:
https://www.harborfreight.com/5-gallon-portable-air-tank-65594.html
but with a standard air tool coupler, instead of an inflator output.
Some people, for a "tire bottle", used a scuba tank, with a primary, but
not secondary regulator. Now, a bottle of nitrogen is often used.
For spraying tiny amounts of paint, is it possible to do an acceptable
job? with:
https://www.harborfreight.com/34-and-3-oz-airbrush-kit-62294.html
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
11:32 a.m.
New subject: Refillable spray can
On 3/24/19 10:43 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
So this?
https://www.amazon.com/EWK-Aluminum-Pneumatic-Refillable-Compressed/dp/B00J…
Just be sure to use a dryer on your compressor output. Compressed air
can hold a lot of moisture.
-Chuck
> Reminds me
of something I picked up years back, and haven't seen another
> of - a rechargeable compressed air sprayer. Works more or less like the
> disposable "canned air" sprayers you get by the half dozen at Fry's or
> Microcenter, complete with the plastic straw to direct the air. But this
> one had a bicycle pump valve on the bottom so you could refill it as
> needed.
On Sun, 24 Mar 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
Isn't that what Fred pointed to?
Almost, and that part overlaps.
I pointed to a refillable liquid sprayer. (we were talking about
spraying paint)
He's asking about a refillable air duster. (as opposed to the disposable
"Dust-Off" from Fry's, etc.)
11:39 a.m.
New subject: Refillable spray can
On 3/24/19 11:32 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
So this?
https://www.amazon.com/EWK-Aluminum-Pneumatic-Refillable-Compressed/dp/B00J…
Just be sure to use a dryer on your compressor output. Compressed air
can hold a lot of moisture.
I'll also add that at 90 PSI, this won't hold much air for long--in the
reviews, that's the major complaint. Better is a small "pony tank"
that can be charged and transported.
--Chuck
12:03 p.m.
New subject: Refillable spray can
On 03/24/2019 02:39 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 3/24/19 11:32 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
?To spray paint well a drier and regulator as best pressures are down
around 20 to maybe 40psi.
With lower pressure the need for additional tank and all not required.?
I do a lot of work with an airbrush as its small volume and you can do
fine detail work very well.
Airbrushes also need lower volume of air so lower pressures require the
regulator.
Allison
So this?
https://www.amazon.com/EWK-Aluminum-Pneumatic-Refillable-Compressed/dp/B00J…
Just be sure to use a dryer on your compressor output. Compressed air
can hold a lot of moisture.
I'll also add that at 90 PSI, this won't hold
much air for long--in the
reviews, that's the major complaint. Better is a small "pony tank"
that can be charged and transported.
--Chuck
12:09 p.m.
New subject: Refillable spray can
>>> Reminds me of something I picked up years
back, and haven't seen another
>>> of - a rechargeable compressed air sprayer. Works more or less like the
>>> disposable "canned air" sprayers you get by the half dozen at
Fry's or
>>> Microcenter, complete with the plastic straw to direct the air. But this
>>> one had a bicycle pump valve on the bottom so you could refill it as
>>> needed.
>> Isn't that what Fred pointed to?
Almost, and
that part overlaps.
I pointed to a refillable liquid sprayer. (we were talking about
spraying paint)
He's asking about a refillable air duster. (as opposed to the disposable
"Dust-Off" from Fry's, etc.)
So this?
https://www.amazon.com/EWK-Aluminum-Pneumatic-Refillable-Compressed/dp/B00J…
Just be sure to use a dryer on your compressor output. Compressed air
can hold a lot of moisture.
Close, but that also is still intended for spraying liquids. The first
Q&A asks, and people comment that for air, it won't hold enough ("5
seconds") It is a tiny size, with low pressure.
A scuba "buddy bottle"/"pony bottle" can be pressurized to 3000 psi,
instead of just 90 - 150 psi. Therefore, it needs a primary stage
regulator, to get it down well below 150, and, as Chuck mentioned, a dryer
if you don't want to spray a lot of water.
Pneumatic tools are typically run at 80 to 120 psi.
90 is the nominal standard, although many shops run at 125, or even 150,
for higher torque, at the expense of reduced tool life and safety.
Your nozzle, for OSHA compliance, must be vented, so that when
"dead-ended" blocking primary outlet, the pressure at the blocked end will
be no more than 30psi. A compliant vented nozzle will put out far more
output pressure (when NOT dead-ended) on 90 psi, than a non-vented nozzle
at only 30 psi.
For blowing dust, you do not want or need more than about 20 psi. A hose
from a spare tire can do.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
13 Mar
13 Mar
12:10 p.m.
Btw... The inhouse system wasn't WYSIWYG, it used a standard font with markup to
specify attributes. The back end system translated that to the proper fonts. The fonts
were custom designed.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 13, 2019, at 11:49, Paul Koning <paulkoning
at comcast.net> wrote:
Early 1979. I worked on TMS-11 from summer 1978 to summer 1980, as
"firefighter" -- traveling on-site support and software repair. I was scheduled
for CMS-11 training early 1979, but instead the Valley News developed a serious bug so I
was sent there to learn on the spot. :-)
Supposedly the Valley News was one of the biggest classified systems in the country, 50+
pages of ads on the peak day. DEC also had a system in Melbourne, Australia (I think) at
News Corp, which was somewhat bigger still. Or perhaps that was a bid that didn't
turn into a sale? Not sure. Still, those systems didn't have 300 terminals, the
likely limit was 100 or so I think. So if you had 330 I can see why that would be custom.
TMS-11 used 11/70 systems running IAS (trimmed down to look like RSX-11/D, the
timesharing part yanked out), with either VT61/t and/or VT71 terminals. The latter have
an LSI-11 inside to do full file local editing.
There was Typeset-10, I'm not sure how many customers that had but they were big.
Chicago Tribune, I think?
It was interesting to do field work for customers who need their system to be very
reliable because they have to produce "product" every single day. Pretty
amazing to get a job like that fresh out of college.
paul
On Mar 13, 2019, at 2:37 PM, Wayne S
<Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com> wrote:
Paul, what was the timeframe when you worked on the system in Van Nuys?
I worked for a large newspaper starting in 1978 and they made their own 330 seat
Classified Sales Entry system because there wasn't anything out there that was big
enough.
It used Zentec ZMS-90 programmable terminals feeding Series /1 mini's that then fed
IBM 3032 mainframe.
I was wondering if DEC had that system available during that time.
Sent from my iPhone
5:07 p.m.
Paul K. wrote:
TMS-11 did support some specialized devices that could
do more. There
was the classified page layout system using a Tek 4010 style
display
(4015? A BIG tube).
The big-tube Tektronix DVST (Direct View Storage Terminal) terminal was
the 4014. The tube used in that terminal was the largest production
DVST tube that Tektronix made.
It was also used in the 4054 computer.
-Rick
--
Rick Bensene
The Old Calculator Museum
http://oldcalculatormuseum.com
5:40 p.m.
On Mar 13, 2019, at 8:07 PM, Rick Bensene <rickb at
bensene.com> wrote:
Paul K. wrote:
An article about those terminals also turns up the 4016 (25 inch tube -- 4014 is 19
inches). I'm not sure any more which of the two it was.
paul
TMS-11 did support some specialized devices that
could do more. There
was the classified page layout system using a Tek 4010 style
display
(4015? A BIG tube).
The big-tube Tektronix DVST (Direct View Storage Terminal) terminal was
the 4014. The tube used in that terminal was the largest production
DVST tube that Tektronix made.
It was also used in the 4054 computer.
14 Mar
14 Mar
10:51 a.m.
In an earlier posting, I stated that the 4014 (with its 19" DVST tube)
was the largest DVST display that Tektronix made, to which
Paul K. responded:
An article about those terminals also turns up the
4016 (25 inch tube
-- 4014 is 19 inches). I'm not sure any more which of the
two it
was.
I stand corrected.
I never saw one of these during the 13 years (1977-1990) that I worked
at Tektronix. But, after looking around online, indeed, they exist,
and there are a number of them still around, including a beautiful,
working example at the local Tektronix museum, VintageTek.org. This is
probably the article that Paul referred to:
https://vintagetek.org/dvst-graphic-terminals/
Funny, last time I was at the museum (which was probably two+ years
ago), I didn't see it...perhaps it's a newer acquisition. Had I seen
it, I would have been surprised, since it was always my impression that
the 19" tube was the largest.
The 25" tube had to have some pretty crazy geometry correction circuitry
in the deflection system to correct for the curvature of the tube face
in X and Y dimensions, as well as probably some beam power correction to
account for the curvature. A pretty amazing accomplishment, for sure.
Tektronix had some really amazing CRT engineering folks, as well as
fabulous CRT fab facilities back in the day.
Thank you, Paul, for pointing out my error. Definitely an example of
learning something new every day :-)
-Rick
11:02 a.m.
On 3/14/19 1:51 PM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote:
In an earlier posting, I stated that the 4014 (with
its 19" DVST tube)
was the largest DVST display that Tektronix made, to which
Paul K. responded:
Personally, I think it would be really neat if some of these
computer museums could collect complete end-product systems
and make them run. Can you imagine showing a bunch of students
how a newspaper was produced using a PDP-11 and one of these
Tek terminals feeding a real printing press.
bill
An article about those terminals also turns up
the 4016 (25 inch tube
-- 4014 is 19 inches). I'm not sure any more which of
the two it
was.
I stand corrected.
I never saw one of these during the 13 years (1977-1990) that I worked
at Tektronix. But, after looking around online, indeed, they exist,
and there are a number of them still around, including a beautiful,
working example at the local Tektronix museum, VintageTek.org. This is
probably the article that Paul referred to:
https://vintagetek.org/dvst-graphic-terminals/
Funny, last time I was at the museum (which was probably two+ years
ago), I didn't see it...perhaps it's a newer acquisition. Had I seen
it, I would have been surprised, since it was always my impression that
the 19" tube was the largest.
The 25" tube had to have some pretty crazy geometry correction circuitry
in the deflection system to correct for the curvature of the tube face
in X and Y dimensions, as well as probably some beam power correction to
account for the curvature. A pretty amazing accomplishment, for sure.
Tektronix had some really amazing CRT engineering folks, as well as
fabulous CRT fab facilities back in the day.
Thank you, Paul, for pointing out my error. Definitely an example of
learning something new every day :-)
11:21 a.m.
On Mar 14, 2019, at 2:02 PM, Bill Gunshannon via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I agree it would be really neat. The odds of pulling it off are slim, unfortunately.
Consider the Typeset-11 system. There were under 100 sold world-wide, I think. Each was
a custom turnkey system, set up to talk to a particular model phototypesetter with the
specific fonts that the customer ordered. The terminals are application-specific too.
I'm not sure if a VT-61/t can be used as a VT52, it wouldn't surprise me if the
answer were "no". And a VT-71 won't do anything unless it's first
loaded with operating firmware from the host, which came packaged with Typeset-11 (or a
later VMS typesetting product whose name escapes me).
That said, if anyone were to come across bits & pieces of Typeset-11 (TMS-11) I'd
be quite interested in dusting off old brain cells to help bring it back to life.
Phototypesetters of that era were often quite big machines. At DEC we had an Autologic
APS-4, which is a gray box about 6 feet on the sides. A fair number of customers had its
successor the APS-5, which is somewhat smaller but not a whole lot. The smallest machines
I remember were the Mergenthaler Linotron 202, about the size of a large high speed
copier. Later models of that one supported PostScript, I think, but the Typeset-11 I
worked on predates all that. Half a generation earlier and also fairly small would be
optical disk based machines, where the letter shapes are kept as shapes on a spinning
glass disks, with a flash bulb to expose the chosen letter onto the film via a set of
lenses that produces one of a number of font sizes. And I still remember the very early
model CRT based phototypesetter at the San Diego Tribune, from III if memory serves -- it
was basically a small room that you'd walk into in order to unload the film.
And yes, those machines produce output on photographic "film" (paper rolls,
actually) which has to be developed and fixed, then cut, coated on the back with sticky
wax, and pasted onto layout boards.
The whole production process, from film to layout to press, is quite complex and comes in
a bunch of variations. I understand it slightly, but all that was the province of skilled
union tradesmen whose trade has long ago vanished into history.
And never mind an actual printing press. Newspaper presses of course are still around,
and probably not changed a whole lot. They are big, loud, and scary. Watching them
switch from a used-up roll of paper to a new full roll, on the fly without stopping, is
quite a spectacle. Especially because it *usually* works -- but if it doesn't
it's rather a mess.
paul
...
Personally, I think it would be really neat if some of these
computer museums could collect complete end-product systems
and make them run. Can you imagine showing a bunch of students
how a newspaper was produced using a PDP-11 and one of these
Tek terminals feeding a real printing press.
bill
11:43 a.m.
As an fyi to collecting, many old newspapers might be a source for old iron. They invested
in computer Technology and when that technology was replaced/upgraded, they usually just
moved the systems into the basement and they sit there collecting dust. Many systems were
still on the books when they were being replaced so they couldn't get rid of them so
they were forgotten about.
At my old place of work I scrounged around in the basement a few years ago and found some
brand new rl02 packs and a new side cover for a PDP 11/34. Still in the original shipping
boxes. The building was sold so they had to clean it out before the new owners took over
so everything was getting cleared out. There were 8 Alpha "Sable" systems that
were used as post script Rips that i could have had too, but didn't have space for
them. A never installed Auspex was there too as well as IBM POWER systems and lots of
other goodies, newspaper page size scanners, Sun E10k, IBM SNA stuff.
Oh well...
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 14, 2019, at 11:21, Paul Koning via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I agree it would be really neat. The odds of pulling it off are slim, unfortunately.
Consider the Typeset-11 system. There were under 100 sold world-wide, I think. Each was
a custom turnkey system, set up to talk to a particular model phototypesetter with the
specific fonts that the customer ordered. The terminals are application-specific too.
I'm not sure if a VT-61/t can be used as a VT52, it wouldn't surprise me if the
answer were "no". And a VT-71 won't do anything unless it's first
loaded with operating firmware from the host, which came packaged with Typeset-11 (or a
later VMS typesetting product whose name escapes me).
That said, if anyone were to come across bits & pieces of Typeset-11 (TMS-11) I'd
be quite interested in dusting off old brain cells to help bring it back to life.
Phototypesetters of that era were often quite big machines. At DEC we had an Autologic
APS-4, which is a gray box about 6 feet on the sides. A fair number of customers had its
successor the APS-5, which is somewhat smaller but not a whole lot. The smallest machines
I remember were the Mergenthaler Linotron 202, about the size of a large high speed
copier. Later models of that one supported PostScript, I think, but the Typeset-11 I
worked on predates all that. Half a generation earlier and also fairly small would be
optical disk based machines, where the letter shapes are kept as shapes on a spinning
glass disks, with a flash bulb to expose the chosen letter onto the film via a set of
lenses that produces one of a number of font sizes. And I still remember the very early
model CRT based phototypesetter at the San Diego Tribune, from III if memory serves -- it
was basically a small room that you'd walk into in order to unload the film.
And yes, those machines produce output on photographic "film" (paper rolls,
actually) which has to be developed and fixed, then cut, coated on the back with sticky
wax, and pasted onto layout boards.
The whole production process, from film to layout to press, is quite complex and comes in
a bunch of variations. I understand it slightly, but all that was the province of skilled
union tradesmen whose trade has long ago vanished into history.
And never mind an actual printing press. Newspaper presses of course are still around,
and probably not changed a whole lot. They are big, loud, and scary. Watching them
switch from a used-up roll of paper to a new full roll, on the fly without stopping, is
quite a spectacle. Especially because it *usually* works -- but if it doesn't
it's rather a mess.
paul
On Mar
14, 2019, at 2:02 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
...
Personally, I think it would be really neat if some of these
computer museums could collect complete end-product systems
and make them run. Can you imagine showing a bunch of students
how a newspaper was produced using a PDP-11 and one of these
Tek terminals feeding a real printing press.
bill
noon
On 2019-03-14 2:21 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
...snip...
On Mar 14, 2019, at 2:02 PM, Bill Gunshannon via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I agree it would be really neat. The odds of pulling it off are slim, unfortunately.
...
Phototypesetters of that era were often quite big machines. At DEC we had an Autologic
APS-4, which is a gray box about 6 feet on the sides. A fair number of customers had its
successor the APS-5, which is somewhat smaller but not a whole lot. The smallest machines
I remember were the Mergenthaler Linotron 202, about the size of a large high speed
copier. Later models of that one supported PostScript, I think, ...
Personally, I think it would be really neat if some of these
computer museums could collect complete end-product systems
and make them run. Can you imagine showing a bunch of students
how a newspaper was produced using a PDP-11 and one of these
Tek terminals feeding a real printing press.
bill
And yes, those machines produce output on photographic "film" (paper rolls,
actually) which has to be developed and fixed, then cut, coated on the back with sticky
wax, and pasted onto layout boards.
Out of high school I worked on a (tiny) family newspaper where we did
that using LaserWriter printouts. Later we bought a Linotronic 100 which
fits your description above: A capstan based laser imagesetter up to
1270dpi which was the first such device to run PostScript, and could be
run over AppleTalk by the Macintosh applications and print manager. I
typeset galleys with it (as it happens, with TeX, using all Adobe
fonts), which were then pasted up into full pages.
The L100 machine itself now needs a forever home. It is stored in Sydney
NSW, Australia, so if anyone _does_ want to preserve some digital
typesetting history, please get in touch.
The whole production process, from film to layout to press, is quite complex and comes in
a bunch of variations. I understand it slightly, but all that was the province of skilled
union tradesmen whose trade has long ago vanished into history.
Yes; my 2nd job was at one of the last old-school graphic repro houses:
Process cameras, manual colour separation and "combining" by the last
generation trained in it. They had a very expensive (pre-PostScript)
Crosfield digital workflow involving drum scanners and high resolution
film recorders which was already obsolete when I started (1992). They
had installed the first PostScript drum imagesetter in Australia (I'm
told) -- a beautifully engineered Scangraphic -- that was my job to run.
--Toby
And never mind an actual printing press. Newspaper presses of course are still around,
and probably not changed a whole lot. They are big, loud, and scary. Watching them
switch from a used-up roll of paper to a new full roll, on the fly without stopping, is
quite a spectacle. Especially because it *usually* works -- but if it doesn't
it's rather a mess.
paul
11:52 a.m.
On Mar 13, 2019, at 8:40 PM, Paul Koning
<paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
I found the answer. My Spanish is nearly non-existent, but I can puzzle out just enough
of this https://ddd.uab.cat/pub/tesis/2002/tdx-0218103-190320/ccs12de16.pdf . On page
17-18 it describes the system used at the Eugene Register-Guard". It's a
three-node 11/70 system, running TMS-11, EMS-11, CMS-11, with 120 VT-72 terminals and an
unstated number of VT61 terminals.
EMS-11 is a refinement of TMS-11 that came out around 1979 or 1980 (also known as TMS-11
V5, I think). It put a thin database on top of the file based document handling that was
there before, so instead of seeing 9.3 RSX-style file names the customer would see
articles named by freeform text phrases. The Denver Post was the beta site for that
product; I got to babysit the initial deployment which was fun because it didn't
involve real work (nothing went wrong).
The document also mentions CPMS-11, which is "Classified page makeup system"
(i.e., page layout) and refers to the Tektronix 4016 it used.
I also see the CHM has a few TMS-11 documents, presumably not yet scanned.
paul
On Mar 13, 2019, at 8:07 PM, Rick Bensene
<rickb at bensene.com> wrote:
Paul K. wrote:
An article about those terminals also turns up the 4016 (25 inch tube -- 4014 is 19
inches). I'm not sure any more which of the two it was.
paul TMS-11 did support some specialized devices that
could do more. There
was the classified page layout system using a Tek 4010 style
display
(4015? A BIG tube).
The big-tube Tektronix DVST (Direct View Storage Terminal) terminal was
the 4014. The tube used in that terminal was the largest production
DVST tube that Tektronix made.
It was also used in the 4054 computer.
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29 comments
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