20 Oct
2010
20 Oct
'10
11:27 p.m.
Maybe a retarded question, but how static sensitive are HTL chips?
--
Will
20 Oct
20 Oct
11:58 p.m.
if HTL is high threshold logic for Industrial logic,I would expect them
*NOT* to have static problems, other than over voltage. I think HTL can
run up to about 35 volts, but I have not seen a DATA SHEET on them for
about 25
years. Ben.
21 Oct
21 Oct
12:39 a.m.
On 20 Oct 2010 at 21:58, ben wrote:
if HTL is high threshold logic for Industrial logic,I
would expect
them *NOT* to have static problems, other than over voltage. I think
HTL can run up to about 35 volts, but I have not seen a DATA SHEET on
them for about 25 years. Ben.
Looking at the schematics and datasheets for HTL, I don't see how
their ESD tolerance would be greatly different from DTL and probably
any other bipolar logic family.
--Chuck
7:25 a.m.
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 12:39 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 20 Oct 2010 at 21:58, ben wrote:
while this is true, with just handling these devices between parts bin, it's
still relative, once these are embedded in equipment and installed in a
facility, however remote, deep in a navy submarine or atop a mountain
observatory. You still needed to follow static precautions as far back when
digital logic was first used because the level of static discharge can
potentially increase when in presence of the various building materials in
and around the computer equipment.
=Dan
--http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/
if HTL is high threshold logic for Industrial
logic,I would expect
them *NOT* to have static problems, other than over voltage. I think
HTL can run up to about 35 volts, but I have not seen a DATA SHEET on
them for about 25 years. Ben.
Looking at the schematics and datasheets for HTL, I don't see how
their ESD tolerance would be greatly different from DTL and probably
any other bipolar logic family.
12:59 p.m.
On 21 Oct 2010 at 7:25, Dan Roganti wrote:
while this is true, with just handling these devices
between parts
bin, it's still relative, once these are embedded in equipment and
installed in a facility, however remote, deep in a navy submarine or
atop a mountain observatory. You still needed to follow static
precautions as far back when digital logic was first used because the
level of static discharge can potentially increase when in presence of
the various building materials in and around the computer equipment.
I don't follow what you're saying. I said that HTL should, as far as
I can determine, have similar ESD tolerance as other bipolar logic.
I did NOT say that you can crank up the steam heat on a subzero
winter day, rub your rubber-soled shoes over the wool carpet and zap
away. Or play fast and loose with the hipot tester.
You'd use the same precautions, in-circuit or out, that you'd use
with any bipolar logic chip, be it HTL, DTL, RTL or TTL. No special
precautions or lack thereof because it's HTL.
Old MOS parts are in a different category, usually requiring
different handling.
--Chuck
1:12 p.m.
You'd use the same precautions, in-circuit or out,
that you'd use
with any bipolar logic chip, be it HTL, DTL, RTL or TTL. ?No special
precautions or lack thereof because it's HTL.
Being bipolar does not mean ESD safe. ECL is somewhat static
sensitive. Also, with HTL being such an old family, I am unsure as to
its sensitivity. DTL and TTL have become more static insensitive over
time with die revisions and better processes. Did HTL, always a
low-runner, go through this process?
--
Will
1:32 p.m.
On 21 Oct 2010 at 13:12, William Donzelli wrote:
Being bipolar does not mean ESD safe. ECL is somewhat
static
sensitive. Also, with HTL being such an old family, I am unsure as to
its sensitivity. DTL and TTL have become more static insensitive over
time with die revisions and better processes. Did HTL, always a
low-runner, go through this process?
I can find no mention one way or the other in my HTL literature.
Given that it's roughly contemporaneous with DTL with similar
internals, I'd expect that ESD handling would be similar.
--Chuck
12:19 p.m.
ben wrote:
if HTL is high threshold logic for Industrial logic,I
would expect
them *NOT* to have static problems, other than over voltage.
ESD is in the tens of thousands of volts. Whether an IC is subject to
ESD damage has nothing to do with the normal operating ratings of the
part. True TTL 74-series parts are nearly immune to ESD whereas
CD4000-series CMOS parts are very ESD-sensitive, due to the details of
the structure of the parts, even though though the CD4000-series parts
are rated for three times the operating voltage of the TTL parts.
4:07 p.m.
Maybe a retarded question, but how static sensitive are HTL chips?
I would guess no more sensitive than any other bipolar logic familes. I
douvt theu're particuarly small-juction devices.
Any semiconductor device -- yes, even a bipolar signal transistor -- can
be damaged by static. Put it this way, if you discharge a lage leyden jar
across the pinsof a 7400 on a 2N3904, I doubt it would still work. But
some, of cours,e are more sensitive than others. MOS devices are more
delicate thn bipolar (the oxide insualting the gate electrode can be
punctured fairly easily), and the smller the active device, the more
delicate it is (it will have a smaller capacitance, so for a given charge
oyu get a higher voltage across it).
But since we've had bipolar devies for years in untreated expanded
polystyrene (sytrofoam)m, etc, I wouldn't worry too much about the HTL parts.
-tony
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