On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, John Allain wrote: AAUI is a kind of compact version of AUI which Apple popularized, if not invented. A few older Sun SBUS cards use a similar if not identical interface (the FSBE card, for example). I've never owned an FSBE to try it out. Anyway, where regular AUI uses a DE15 connector, AAUI uses... something else. I'm not sure what the nomenclature is to describe it. ok r.

On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 healyzh(a)aracnet.com wrote: the connector I'm thinking of is physically the same as the AAUI connector and not at all like the 'AUI' connector on, say, an SS20, which is something like a 26-pin version of the compact 50-pin interface used for the SCSI interface on the same machine. Dunno if we're talking about the same thing or not. I've never seen the back of a SPARCbook, but I know this same 26-pin thing is used on the SPARCserver 1000, the SPARCclassic, and the SPARCstations 5, 20, and LX (though not always for ethernet). I've only seen the AAUI-looking job on SBUS ethernet cards. ok r.

--- Jeff Hellige <jhellige(a)earthlink.net> wrote: AFAIK, AAUI uses +5VDC and AUI calls for +12VDC to power the transceiver. If that is so (as in, if I can find a pinout for the AAUI), I was contemplating grabbing +12VDC from a disk connector and adding an AUI connector on the back of the Quadra 660AV and using one of my many 10BaseT AUI transceivers. OTOH, for ~$10 each, I can just take the lazy way out. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd(a)iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Double-Height??? I think you may be confusing VESA and EISA. The VESA type of board has a normal-looking ISA (with the 62 and 36-pin connectors (dual-31 and dual-18) at the end of the board closest to the backof the PC box and a fine-pitch connector as on MCA and PCI at the other end. EISA has the wierd-looking extra-tall edge-connector at the "back" end of the board. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 12:48 AM Subject: VESA SCSI

I guess it was a EISA mistake? ;) Just so I have this absolutely correct, the fingers are all on the end of the card with the metal bracket, and the contacts are as wide as ISA, but in a piano key fashion with alternate traces above or below the one next to it (the fat part of the contact) q q q b b b b finger area is about 7 inches long and 3/4" tall and has 6 notches dividing segments of the fingers. What sort of a system used EISA?

Chad Fernandez skrev: Didn't HP minis use EISA at one time as well? I got a Compaq Prolinea 300 (Pentium 75) with EISA last week, just a hundred crowns with a monitor and 1 GB SCSI HD & CD. I've also got a dual Pentium motherboard, but I haven't powered that up yet, due to lack of cases, processors and that bloody cooling. I hate "modern" computers and their ridiculous cooling requirements! I like to be able to sleep in the same room as my computers. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Se pensate che alcune sigle dei cartoni in Italia siano bruttine, ascoltatevi quella di Kenshiro in francese ("Ken le survivant")... Non saprei se sia pi? trash questa o quella di Mazinga Z in Francese... Nicola Solati om den franska signaturen till Hokut? no Ken

On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 09:33:17AM +0100, Iggy Drougge (optimus(a)canit.se) wrote: Oh, well, let me tell you! Compared to the AUI connector I have in front of me, the AAUI connector has four inches of *very* flexible cable. :-) -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich(a)alcor.concordia.ca ----------------------

It's not so much the AAUI having features that AUI doesn't, but I much prefer the smaller connector, the easier 'pinch' lock release vice the cumbersome slide-release on the AUI and the smaller tranciever size of AAUI boxes, though obviously it could just be that I've not seen that many AUI tranceivers and the ones I have seen have been pretty large. Otherwise they seem to have similar status displays and would appear to do much the same job. I do like the flexibility of having a single connector that, with the addition of the proper dongle, can be used with either 10base-T or 10base-2 ethernet connections. A nicer design than trying to cram 2-3 different connectors on a single ISA slot plate, such as 3COM does with their various cards. Then again I'm sure there are those that see it the opposite and are happy to have the various connectors without having to fool with the external tranceiver. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

Most of the time, but not always, Apple's deviation from standards was done in the attempt to build a better mouse trap, not just to ignore standards. Sometimes they were right, sometimes wrong. Often, they were early adopters who helped get a market going, such as with both USB and Firewire. Even Intel has recently announced that they were moving to the IEEE-1394 standard, which Apple has been using, vice the one they had been pushing. Current Mac's are full of standard parts and ports though and oftentimes can even use PC PCI boards with the appropriate drivers. Certainly they stick to standards more than say, Microsoft, who tossed out every known data format standard in it's Office products, not because they came up with something better but because it was proprietary to them? How else can you explain the fact that Access can't open dBase files directly while Excel can? And to me, that's the whole name of the game...options and choices. Anyone that tries to stronghold me into using only their products will quickly find that I will use none of their products. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

You'll have to remember though that 720k/1.4meg 3-1/2" floppy drives weren't common in the PC world until after IBM introduced the PS/2 line. That's when the PC's jumped onto the 3-1/2" bandwagon..after the Atari, Amiga, and Apple machines had been using them for at least a couple of years. When both the original Mac and the Lisa began using the Sony 400k 3-1/2" there wasn't a need to consider making it compatible format-wise with anyone else because they were some of the first machines to use the form-factor. As for both the SCSI connector and the serial ports, the main reason I can see for Apple doing it the way they did was due to space constraints on the rear of the compact form-factor Mac's. There just wasn't enough room physically to use the larger connectors and fit everything they wanted to on the rear of the machine. Considering the small size of the machine, there's an amazing amount of I/O coming off the rear of the compact Mac's, especially the ones such as the Color Classic that can even have a PDS card installed. Certainly there weren't many machines outside of high-end servers and such using SCSI in 1985 anyway. The Mac's, along with 3rd-party Zorro-II boards for the Amiga 2000, were some of the first systems geared for home use that utilized SCSI and both used the same DB25 connector. Even the Amiga 3000 used the DB25 SCSI connector as did quite a few early ISA SCSI boards. Concerning the NUBUS design, other than the info I've seen posted on this list concerning it's use in other machines, I don't know enough about it to comment. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

Considering that all Mac's made after January 1989 came with a 1.4meg floppy vice the original 400k/800k drive, I'd say that Apple saw it's error with the original drives and corrected it. Everything starting with the SE/30 and IIx has the 1.4meg and in fact Apple dropped support in the OS for dealing with the earlier format in System 8.X. That's one reason I keep my PM 6100 around running System 7.5.5, so that I can still create the images and disks of those. They were trying for a completely different market with the compact Mac's. Their size was meant to make them less formidable to the new computer user. Even my wife, who hasn't touched a computer in a number of years, and who then only used a pre-made boot disk to go directly into a terminal program, saw my Color Classic and stopped to look at it and and called it 'cute'. I like larger cases with expandability myself, but the overall design of the compact Mac's has to be given credit for being the solid design that it is. My take on that would be that a CP/M machine, at the same period in time, with a SASI or SCSI interface would've been bought for business use though. Other than someone heavy into tinkering with the hardware, not many people would've spent the money for one for home use. As it is, enough other manufacturers used the same DB25 connector on that era's SCSI inplementations. My point in all this is that yes, Apple has done some strange things over the years, some of which have been pet peeves of mine since before I started using Mac's (inability to format non-Apple SCSI hard disks!), and they've produced a few lemons (52-5300 and 62-6300 series PowerMacs) but overall they are very solid machines. For instance, the cases on the Blue/white G3 and G4 towers are almost works of art. HP, Compaq, Tandy, IBM and nearly all of your major PC vendors have themselves done things inconsistent or incompatible with the rest of the industry as well at varios times, so it's not just Apple that tries to pull one over on the user on occasion. I found it hillarious when Tandy introduced IDE in the 1000-series but made it 8bit vice the normal 16bit, which in turn meant that it was compatible with all of four hard disks at the time (2 from Seagate, 2 though taken as a whole accomplished what it was meant to do and was quite successful. It had excellent name recognition into the early 90's. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

Something slowly seeping into my brain is that a variety of computers of different styles is nice to have. A little SE/30 makes a nice network monitor/server/email/thing, while a huge old chassis is great to park a batch of old hard drives etc. in. Mobility of the SE/30, even at this age gives it quite an edge in many small situatations. I can certainly see the appeal of taking one and decking it out with a nice hard drive, faster cpu, and greatest luxury an 8 bit video board.

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Are you talking about these 400K and 800K format on these original Macs? You can't unless one designs a card and special drive with straight through raw analog connection that reads at analog level and extract the bits by a/d and d/a conversions, translate it to PC side. Physical tracks and pitch is same for all SD, DD and HD 3.5" disks. The software side to translate the data isn't the problem, it's the physical chipsets on PC for the floppy drives is the problem. It's the strange GCR formatting and 4 speed rpms, I did feel the heads seeks change speeds 4 times through a whole init which means the rpm changes in those original Macs. Needs a later Mac like SE FDHD, SE/30 and any later Mac II upgraded to superdrive support, any LC series, all quadra, centris, performas etc to format these 400K/800K disks to get old Macs going once again. Reason I said having newer Macs to do this jump start process is a given because of it's capablities like networking, init the external HD drives, install old OSes, create 400K/800K disks to transfer files or build up disk sets for non-SCSI capble orignal Macs (Mac, Mac 512 etc) and other things. Snip Correct, my whole place where I can keep my stuff is my 20'ish by 18' bedroom. Tower cases and compact desktop to stack upon is big plus. Some other items went into closest, under that bed and around it. Oh some more around and in that tv stand plus some clutter besides me and stuff stuffed into my crappy chipboard hutch. Snip Hmmm... Again, there's the dangerous telephone wires, plug that in place of properly wired apple wire for keyboard. POW! Goes the keyboard microcontroller. That's another fatal design thanks to apple for using telephone jacks instead of some kind of connectors. Cheers, Wizard

Tony Duell skrev: Then you're on the right way. =) But what if you don't like MFM encoding? Since the Amiga drive IIRC works at a lower level, it hasn't got any preferred encoding, so that it may still read MFM if necessary, without being constrained to that particular encoding. What you are suggesting is adopting the lowest common denominator and sacrificing flexibility. That's nice. Now, that's a pity. First the Lisa drive, then the Mac. I thought that a drive with variable speed would be able to read most formats. But then again the Mac isn't for us. It's nice to have a lot of flat desktop machines which are easily stackable, but if you've only got one machine, stackability is a minor concern. Besides, most standard PCs are hidously ugly. It's no coincidence interior designers and fashion photographer prefer Macs to bland Taiwanese mini towers. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the universe is winning. -- Rick Cook, Mission Manager, NASA Mars Pathfinder Project

Tony Duell skrev: But they use PC drives? And that, of course, is bad. Just being different isn't enough. OTOH, sometimes compatibility may be a curse. If users can use a common format, they might not stick the better alternative. Look at the lack of success for all things modern on the PC clones. If you can just launch a DOS session, there is never a great enough need to develop that silly little LhA unarchiver, MS Word converter, music piracy client or what have you. Isuppose compatibility sometimes must be sacrificed. Nowadays, it seems mostly to be a matter of policy, though. Things which have been supported in older versions are dropped without there being anything in particular preventing its continuous implementation. That's nice. Just like in the CP/M days. Just as long as it doesn't haunt computer users for generations to come. Agreed. When it comes to Mac, you just tend not to get particularly worked up about silly connectors and formats. OTOH, when it comes to Big Blue, I wish they would get off their high horse and face the stark reality of not being the ones setting standards in the PC world any more. IBM have made an AUI connector of their own, too, as well as proprietary SCSI connectors. While on the topic of SCSI connectors, didn't Macrovision use a DB23 as a SCSI connector on one of their Evolution Zorro SCSI boards for the Amiga? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. optimus@dec:foo$ %blow bash: fg: %blow: no such job

Hi all, Doesn't make sense to buy single TTL oscillator while I have lots of other osc chips that has compatiable frequencies that I can divide down. A computer needs 12.5 MHz TTL oscillator to clock that '040 at 25MHz. Right now that motherboard uses 10MHz OSC nearby for a bogus 'LC040 20MHz and have a real '040-25 coming in to swap out that fpu-less chip and bump up that MHz. That motherboard is *exact* same board used in 20 and 25, 40 and 50MHz Macs including one low end Mac server. (!!) What is proper way to build up a reliable divide down TTL or cmos circuit output just with 5V and ground and a oscillator? Say, I divide 25 by 2 or 50 by 4 to get 12.5MHz. I also have doc about details about replacing missing clock output to run that ethernet Sonic chipset. That 10Mhz output is used there also but there's the pads and holes, just move few parts around and add few more parts which I have everything except this CPU frequency that I have to make. I tell you, that clever motorala engineers must found a way to make 040 series so efficient, even 16 MHz if there ever one existed blew away 030 even at 40MHz. Right now doing my business on a LC III w/ stuffit uncoding those coded files. Slow as frozen sick snail even LC III is stuffed w/ nice 540MB hd and spacious 20MB ram. That really impresses me which I did worked with 486 and 386 machines before and see performance differences is not as hot as like now. Cheers, Wizard

If you're after something more general than a divide-by-two, you might want to consider a "rate multiplier" of one sort or another. These are multistage divide-by-n devices, though they may not, in the usual TTL form, work at the rates you need. If you do a little reading, the clock generation problem has been very well treated over the past decade, with a variety of phase-locked oscillators that use the 14.318 MHz oscillator present on most PC motherboards and multiplying them up to the multiple-hundreds or multiple phases of 66 MHz or whatever, that they feed to the processor in question. Some of them are so totally encapsulated and digitally controllable, that you need very few external passives to make them work. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 10:50 AM Subject: Re: constructing TTL frequency divide by x question.

The odd thing in this case, is that I had the impression that what was wanted was a way to generate ANY desired frequency from ANY available crystal. That's a tall order, which may be why I had such trouble making sense of the rather bizarre initial post. There are some clock frequencies that readily produce a long list of useful frequencies, i.e. harmonics of both the baud rates and of useful timing rates. However, since the original post indicated the writer was enamored of handy integral frequencies readily quoted by the marketing department at nearly any CPU vendor, it looked to me as though what he was after was a way to generate the "other" useful frequencies, e.g. baud rate generator input clock, etc, from whatever crystal he had on board. A rate multiplier would do that sort of thing nicely. If it doesn't fit, however, it's well to note that 5% is close enough for baud rates, and that if that doesn't allow for the use of "common" oscillator frequencies, one of the many multiplier/divider PLL devices now quite ubiquitous thanks to PC motherboards and other devices that use them would easily do the job. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 11:08 AM Subject: Re: constructing TTL frequency divide by x question. to

Tony Duell skrev: Oops, I forgot I was using such drives, too. Is that what Shugart defines? What is a DD50? I'm thinking of the connector used on PS/2s, which looks like a small Centronics connector. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. A bore is a man who deprives you of solitude without providing you with company.

Tony Duell skrev: Apart from the Mac drives, I've got one other drive which is not all that bog- standard. It's the HD drive in my Amiga 4000, which has been factory modified to run at a slower speed when encountering a HD disk, so as not to saturate the Paula chip. It's a shame that Commodore decided to change the drive instead of the controller. Nope, that's not it. Some VAXes used a small Centronics connector as well, but it's not the same kind, either. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Haben Sie schon mal einen Wegweiser gesehen, der selbst den Weg geht, den er weist? --- Ludwig XV (K?nig von Frankreich, 1710-1774)

Given how 'dumb' the PC floppy is though, it's easy to see why you couldn't just pop one into the Mac. Mac floppies, like Amiga floppies, automatically update the OS upon insertion or removal of a disk. Mac floppies also are under OS control for ejecting the disks automatically. Obviously there are considerable differences between the two platforms then as far as the floppy drives are concerned, which is why one can't just pop a PC drive into an Amiga either. Not all platforms use passive components that require user intervention at all times. Apple can't be blamed for the lack of drivers for various cards though. I have used any number of PC PCI boards in my PCI Mac's, including USB, Firewire and video boards. The slots themselves are compliant with the PCI standard. It's just a matter of lacking 3rd party drivers. Creative Labs is releasing a Mac version of it's SB Live, NVidia has done Mac versions of it's Geoforce boards, 3Dfx did Mac versions of it's Voodoo4 and Voodoo5 boards just before they went under, and Adaptec has done Mac versions of many of it's SCSI boards. Apple isn't a perfect company but most of the designs are solid and they aren't afraid of taking chances to try to advance the technology, or occasionally just to make the sale. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

Back in '94 or so Dell made a really cool external HD floppy for the Amiga. It had a black matte finish similar to that of the Atari Portfolio and was roughly the size and shape of some of the VST USB floppies being sold for the iMac. I bought one when they first came out and wish I had kept it. The only complaint I've ever seen about them was the cable, as it seemed rather frail. The drive itself couldn't have been much more than the thickness of 3 3-1/2" floppy disks and it worked great as a Mac drive under Shapeshifter too. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

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A huge number of graphics designers are still 100% behind the mac, and cheerfully plop down thousands for the best hardware. OTOH there are NO cheap PCI video cards for the mac, or cheap sound cards.

The early Rage 128 PCI cards were pretty inexpensive too. I picked up my Rage Orion for $135 new. Great card for the money -- not fabulous output but certainly more than decent. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The steady state of disks is full. -- Ken Thompson -------------------------

Jeff Hellige skrev: As of now, Voodoo (and Virge) cards are the only choice for PCI-equipped Amiga owners as well. I really don?t like those tight-arsed hardware manufacturers who can't share programming documentation. I've got the same problem with my new 100 Mb MCA NIC, which has got no drivers, partly because Olicom won't share information. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Iggy tipsar: Vill du l?sa en PDF-fil, men saknar l?sare, skicka den till pdf2txt(a)adobe.com, du f?r den tillbaka som ren ASCII till din epostadress.

Jeff Hellige skrev: There are busboards for A1200s and A4000s with PCI now. Drivers exist for Virge, Voodoo, NE2000 (PCI) with Soundblaster and TV card drivers in the works. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Was ist ein Erwachsener? Ein Kind, das vom Alter aufgepumpt ist. --- Simone de Beauvoir

Snip Vomits... :-P Mostly bogus "3D" accelerator. Wizard

Jeff Hellige skrev: Well, transceivers do have the tendency to fall off their mounting point... =) As for the size of AUI transceivers, they have been absolutely gargantuan once upon a time. We've got a BULL 10B2 transceiver connected to a pocket hub at the usergroup, and the transceiver actually dwarfs the hub! Then again, I have a stack of pocket transceivers which are actually smaller than my AAUI ones. The cable is a nice addition, though. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Computer programmers know how to use their hardware.

Hi all, With some trepidation, but driven by the fact that these machines and their newer cousins, the 7000 series are starting to become more readily available. I have started a Web site to help those who wish to give one a good home. Not much there yet, and I will be soliciting for contributions from those who have 'been there, done that'. There is a small FAQ, and some pics of a 6000 cluster recovery, the rest of the headings will become links as the sections are completed. If you wish to contribute something, find a flaw, etc etc, please email me. (link on the web page). The Vax 6000 Website is at http://www.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au/vax/ The site runs on a Vax 6000-440 (link to pic on web page). I have deliberately not used frames and tried to keep it as text friendly as possible for Lynx users. Enjoy. Kindest Regards Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ: 1970476

On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Joe wrote: Please stop believing everything that you are told! I bought PC-DOS 1.00 when it came out. I USED PC-DOS 1.00 I continued to use PC-DOS 1.00 until 1.10 came out. Unless you are calling me a liar or delusional (Hmmm. an option), how can there be any doubt about whether PC-DOS 1.00 existed? FALSE I purchased my PC-DOS copies from Computerland (authorized IBM peddler) and from IBM's retail product centers. I have a few unofficial early products, but my PC-DOS 1.00 copies were as "public" as it was possible to be. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com