3 Jun
2007
3 Jun
'07
10:20 a.m.
Hi
Thanks for the positive feed back. Needless to say like all standards
S100 had different versions.
For example the Northstar Horizion had some active components on the
mother board.
However if we look at a basic passive (other than power) back plane.
What are the potential problems? Firstly the connectors are they
available? They had two rows of fifty connections.
Spacing pin to pin .125in. Mother board was thicker than the usual 1/16
in for rigidity possibily 3/32 in.
Card guides pretty standard but how high? Then the metalwork supporting
the card guides.
Possible Parts List
1. Double sided S100 motherboard (Say twelve slots)
2. Aluminium base plate drilled for backplane and card guide
supports.
3. Twelve double sided 2x50 edge connectors.
4. Card guide support frame.
5. Twenty four card guides.
6. Nuts, bolts and screws etc.
Rod Smallwood
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan
Sent: 03 June 2007 12:59
To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available
Rod,
I see what you mean. I'm just starting off small right now since it's
mainly a hobby. It's mostly to support the existing vintage computers
out there. I really don't know what the demand there is for a new S-100
chassis. I suppose that might be a good kit to build with the right
parts. I can look into this.
=Dan
[ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ]
Rod Smallwood wrote:
Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed is
an S100 card cage
with back plane and PSU.
Its normal to build the foundations before the rest of
the house!!
Rod Smallwood
3 Jun
3 Jun
3:55 p.m.
That's a start.
But it'll take some work to find a good dealer for all the parts.
Also, gettig a bulk price, to keep it within reason.
I personally don't have an operation here to inventory parts in bulk.
It would be nice to make it a batch order much like the pcb design I'm
working on.
Only if there's enough people interested of course.
=Dan
[ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ]
Rod Smallwood wrote:
Hi
Thanks for the positive feed back. Needless to say like all standards
S100 had different versions.
For example the Northstar Horizion had some active components on the
mother board.
However if we look at a basic passive (other than power) back plane.
What are the potential problems? Firstly the connectors are they
available? They had two rows of fifty connections.
Spacing pin to pin .125in. Mother board was thicker than the usual 1/16
in for rigidity possibily 3/32 in.
Card guides pretty standard but how high? Then the metalwork supporting
the card guides.
Possible Parts List
1. Double sided S100 motherboard (Say twelve slots)
2. Aluminium base plate drilled for backplane and card guide
supports.
3. Twelve double sided 2x50 edge connectors.
4. Card guide support frame.
5. Twenty four card guides.
6. Nuts, bolts and screws etc.
Rod Smallwood
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan
Sent: 03 June 2007 12:59
To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: New pcb design for S-100 prototype board available
Rod,
I see what you mean. I'm just starting off small right now since it's
mainly a hobby. It's mostly to support the existing vintage computers
out there. I really don't know what the demand there is for a new S-100
chassis. I suppose that might be a good kit to build with the right
parts. I can look into this.
=Dan
[ My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ]
Rod Smallwood wrote:
Prototype boards are nice but whats really needed
is an S100 card cage
with back plane and PSU.
Its normal to build the foundations before the
rest of the house!!
Rod Smallwood
4:25 p.m.
At 11:55 AM 6/3/2007, you wrote:
That's a start.
But it'll take some work to find a good dealer for all the parts.
Also, gettig a bulk price, to keep it within reason.
I personally don't have an operation here to inventory parts in bulk.
It would be nice to make it a batch order much like the pcb design I'm
working on.
Only if there's enough people interested of course.
A motherboard would be very expensive. About $250 cost for 12 slots at a
production quantity of 50.
4:35 p.m.
On Sun, 3 Jun 2007, Grant Stockly wrote:
A motherboard would be very expensive. About $250
cost for 12 slots at a
production quantity of 50.
On top of that, S100 motherboards are still fairly easy to find. If
anyone's interested, I'll have some ready for sale in a couple weeks.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
7:10 p.m.
On Jun 3, 2007, at 4:25 PM, Grant Stockly wrote:
What are you basing this on? Have the connectors become
unobtainable or something? PCB fab costs won't be anywhere near that
high. (assuming you're talking about $250/ea)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
That's a
start.
But it'll take some work to find a good dealer for all the parts.
Also, gettig a bulk price, to keep it within reason.
I personally don't have an operation here to inventory parts in bulk.
It would be nice to make it a batch order much like the pcb design
I'm working on.
Only if there's enough people interested of course.
A motherboard would be very expensive. About $250 cost for 12
slots at a production quantity of 50.
4 Jun
4 Jun
5:24 a.m.
I did a cost projection for the motherboard in my Imsai 8080
This is a 22slot , 8.5" x 17", 0.062" thickness, 2 layer pcb, 2oz copper.
The copper thickness might be alittle more, but I couldn't see mentioned
in the manual.
This is only for a batch order--eg, pre-orders only (20x)., as I don't
inventory bulk parts.
With a batch order of 20 units, including shipping costs, it's only $35
each.
Then with the 22x S-100 connectors, at $5 each, an additional $110.
The kit would be $145, minus the nuts n bolts(that's easy to find)
I might put this on my To-Do list.
=Dan
[ beauty is in the eye of the beer holder ]
[ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ]
Grant Stockly wrote:
At 11:55 AM 6/3/2007, you wrote:
That's a start.
But it'll take some work to find a good dealer for all the parts.
Also, gettig a bulk price, to keep it within reason.
I personally don't have an operation here to inventory parts in bulk.
It would be nice to make it a batch order much like the pcb design
I'm working on.
Only if there's enough people interested of course.
A motherboard would be very expensive. About $250 cost for 12 slots
at a production quantity of 50.
2:21 p.m.
At 01:24 AM 6/4/2007, you wrote:
I did a cost projection for the motherboard in my Imsai
8080
This is a 22slot , 8.5" x 17", 0.062" thickness, 2 layer pcb, 2oz copper.
The copper thickness might be alittle more, but I couldn't see mentioned
in the manual.
This is only for a batch order--eg, pre-orders only (20x)., as I don't
inventory bulk parts.
With a batch order of 20 units, including shipping costs, it's only $35 each.
Then with the 22x S-100 connectors, at $5 each, an additional $110.
The kit would be $145, minus the nuts n bolts(that's easy to find)
I might put this on my To-Do list.
Where do you get S-100 connectors for $5 or huge 1/8" PCBs for $35? I use
Imagineering for PCBs and I can't get $35 a piece for 1/8 FR4 11x13" (being
conservative) unless I order 50 with a 3 week lead time.
I buy the same edge card connectors that MITS bought, minus one part number
digit because I am buying non gold plated pins. The contacts are gold
plated. If I buy 10 from DigiKey they are $14-$15. If I buy direct from
the company they are $17-$20. : )
I've heard horror stories from Todd Fisher about cheap sockets...
Grant
2:42 p.m.
On 4 Jun 2007 at 10:21, Grant Stockly wrote:
I buy the same edge card connectors that MITS bought,
minus one part number
digit because I am buying non gold plated pins. The contacts are gold
plated. If I buy 10 from DigiKey they are $14-$15. If I buy direct from
the company they are $17-$20. : )
I learned that the rule was "gold against gold" and "tin against tin"
for edge connectors and IC sockets. Otherwise, there would be
galvanic corrosion between the tinned and gold surfaces, particularly
in high-humidity environments.
Is this not true?
Cheers,
Chuck
3:08 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 4 Jun 2007 at 10:21, Grant Stockly wrote:
Only on the tin side.
Peace... Sridhar
I buy the same edge card connectors that MITS
bought, minus one part number
digit because I am buying non gold plated pins. The contacts are gold
plated. If I buy 10 from DigiKey they are $14-$15. If I buy direct from
the company they are $17-$20. : )
I learned that the rule was "gold against gold" and "tin against tin"
for edge connectors and IC sockets. Otherwise, there would be
galvanic corrosion between the tinned and gold surfaces, particularly
in high-humidity environments.
Is this not true?
4:55 p.m.
At 10:42 AM 6/4/2007, you wrote:
On 4 Jun 2007 at 10:21, Grant Stockly wrote:
I'm not sure. I have a 30 year old Altair with gold plated sockets and tin
plated boards. Works fine and I don't see any oxidation. I pay about $5-7
extra per PCB to get gold plated fingers, just because people buying my kit
are most likely not buying it for what it does but more likely what it
looks like. : )
I buy the same edge card connectors that MITS
bought, minus one part
number
digit because I am buying non gold plated pins.
The contacts are gold
plated. If I buy 10 from DigiKey they are $14-$15. If I buy direct from
the company they are $17-$20. : )
I learned that the rule was "gold against gold" and "tin against tin"
for edge connectors and IC sockets. Otherwise, there would be
galvanic corrosion between the tinned and gold surfaces, particularly
in high-humidity environments.
Is this not true?
5:04 p.m.
At 12:55 PM 6/4/2007, you wrote:
At 10:42 AM 6/4/2007, you wrote:
There is also a concern over ROHS solder and gold plated pins. I remember
words like leaching, cracking...basically bad stuff. Plus, $15 for gold
contacts and tinned pins, or $30 for gold pins and contacts...
On 4 Jun 2007 at 10:21, Grant Stockly wrote:
I'm not sure. I have a 30 year old Altair with gold plated sockets and
tin plated boards. Works fine and I don't see any oxidation. I pay about
$5-7 extra per PCB to get gold plated fingers, just because people buying
my kit are most likely not buying it for what it does but more likely what
it looks like. : ) I buy the same edge card connectors that MITS
bought, minus one part
number
digit because I am buying non gold plated pins.
The contacts are gold
plated. If I buy 10 from DigiKey they are $14-$15. If I buy direct from
the company they are $17-$20. : )
I learned that the rule was "gold against gold" and "tin against tin"
for edge connectors and IC sockets. Otherwise, there would be
galvanic corrosion between the tinned and gold surfaces, particularly
in high-humidity environments.
Is this not true? 
5:49 p.m.
Grant Stockly wrote:
Chuck Guzis wrote:
I would have thought as Chuck did, however I scrapped some circa-1969
Hewlett-Packard reed-scanners 3-4 years ago which were similarly tin-plate PCB
fingers in gold-plated sockets. The tin plate was as shiny and clean as if it
just came out of the dip!
I learned that the rule was "gold against gold" and "tin against tin"
for edge connectors and IC sockets. Otherwise, there would be
galvanic corrosion between the tinned and gold surfaces, particularly
in high-humidity environments.
Is this not true?
I'm not sure. I have a 30 year old Altair with gold plated sockets and tin
plated boards. Works fine and I don't see any oxidation. I pay about $5-7
extra per PCB to get gold plated fingers, just because people buying my kit
are most likely not buying it for what it does but more likely what it
looks like. : )
9:01 p.m.
Here's the specs I used from my Imsai 8080 backplane.
22slot , 8.5" x 17", 0.062"(1/16") thickness, 2 layer pcb, 2oz
copper(approx), plated thru holes, green solder mask top and bottom,
white silkscreen top, Hot Air Solder Level, 15day lead time.
I currently use a place called General Circuits Co.Ltd(China),
www.pcbcart.com. They've been providing a good quality service.
Imagineering is rather expensive if you ask me as most of them places
can be. For quick prototype, I also use Barebonespcb.com
The Imsai backplane is supported by a grid of standoff's at every other
slot position along both edges on the steel chassis. This is how it
retains it's strength when inserting many cards into the system. They
didn't need to make it any thicker. The only time I had thicker
backplane pcbs is for an industrial system, CPCI or VME systems, --which
this isn't-- then it's wise to make a 1/8" or 3/16" backplane. At my
last job,Lucent, our telecom backplanes were 1/2" thick. This is usually
the result of a 8,10,12 layer or more pcb. It also offers a system which
can withstand the rigors of an unpredictable environment. The Imsai,
Altair, and the like are just home systems.
The copper thickness is estimated but it has to be more than the
standard 1oz since this has a high current capacity.
I can recheck the cost projections for a thicker copper layer just in case.
All the sockets have gold plated contacts and are very good quality.
Good thing you mentioned the sockets. I was using a supplier which has a
dwindling supply(JDR)--checked it recently-- I hate when that happens.
They don't even have enough left over to make one backplane --uuggh--
and can't even bother to resupply. I had to source another supplier I
use for other stuff (Sullins Electronics). They have plenty but they
cost alittle more. To make it still reasonable, the batch order would
have to be 25 pieces at least and then the connectors would be down to
$15each.(I should double check the shipping again). The problem with
dealing directly with the vendors is that the prices they quote can
mysteriously fluctuate depending on the lifespan of a gnat
circumnavigating a buffalo's butt.
So a kit price would be way more expensive for a 22slot backplane
But you can always buy a few connectors at a clip and worry about
filling the backplane later.
Hey do I get a commission, now that I gave you some more suppliers :)
=Dan
[ beauty is in the eye of the beer holder ]
[ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ]
Grant Stockly wrote:
Where do you get S-100 connectors for $5 or huge 1/8" PCBs for $35? I
use Imagineering for PCBs and I can't get $35 a piece for 1/8 FR4
11x13" (being conservative) unless I order 50 with a 3 week lead time.
I buy the same edge card connectors that MITS bought, minus one part
number digit because I am buying non gold plated pins. The contacts
are gold plated. If I buy 10 from DigiKey they are $14-$15. If I buy
direct from the company they are $17-$20. : )
I've heard horror stories from Todd Fisher about cheap sockets...
Grant
5 Jun
5 Jun
12:15 a.m.
At 05:01 PM 6/4/2007, you wrote:
Here's the specs I used from my Imsai 8080
backplane.
22slot , 8.5" x 17", 0.062"(1/16") thickness, 2 layer pcb, 2oz
copper(approx), plated thru holes, green solder mask top and bottom, white
silkscreen top, Hot Air Solder Level, 15day lead time.
I currently use a place called General Circuits Co.Ltd(China),
www.pcbcart.com. They've been providing a good quality service.
Imagineering is rather expensive if you ask me as most of them places can
be. For quick prototype, I also use Barebonespcb.com
That makes sense... 14 day lead, 8.5x17, 2 layer, 2oz, plated, green,
white-top... Imagineering wants $37.41 So they can't be TOO expensive. ; )
Barebonespcb is Advanced Circuits. They are pretty expensive on everything
but the "bare bones" boards. I use them for prototypes too. If you want
high volume large "bare bones" PCBs, NO ONE (that I've found) so far can
beat PCBExpress. I used them to make 20 14x12" PCBs for my 19,008 LED
bitmap display. I think the bill was $340. :D They are kind of strange
about drill sizes... You have to choose from around 15 sizes.
I like the "look" of the boards that Imagineering produces, so I stick with
them. Don't forget that once I make the CPU and RAM card with a given
finish I have to finish off the kit with the same finish! They have a nice
green gloss... It would look funny to have differing looks. So I guess I
am stuck. : ) I have finished the 2SIO, PMC, SIOB, MODEM, and 4MCS
boards. It sure is a pretty set! Now I need to start selling these things
so I can afford to make new toys.
So a kit price would be way more expensive for a 22slot
backplane
But you can always buy a few connectors at a clip and worry about filling
the backplane later.
Hey do I get a commission, now that I gave you some more suppliers :)
I use Sullins! : ) I found I get just as good pricing through DigiKey and
with a shorter lead time than going direct to sullins. What row spacing
does the IMSAI board use on the S-100 connectors? is it .100"? I remember
something about two different row spacings. I was forced to buy the ones
that match the old motherboards because I couldn't just design something new...
Oh, you want a percentage of the profits? Then write *me* a check! ; )
Grant
6:48 a.m.
The PCBCart actual cost after shipping is $28
I have to make some beer money, my day job pays the bills :)
Sullins does have 2 options for the pin spacing, The Imsai has 0.250"
spacing. I'm sure that's the same as the other machines(haven't looked
inside my SOL).
The connectors do get alot cheaper at qty.50, then it's only $9ea
I'm always looking for more suppliers.
=Dan
[ beauty is in the eye of the beer holder ]
[ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ]
Grant Stockly wrote:
That makes sense... 14 day lead, 8.5x17, 2 layer, 2oz, plated, green,
white-top... Imagineering wants $37.41 So they can't be TOO
expensive. ; )
I use Sullins! : ) I found I get just as good pricing through
DigiKey and with a shorter lead time than going direct to sullins.
What row spacing does the IMSAI board use on the S-100 connectors? is
it .100"? I remember something about two different row spacings.
12:40 p.m.
At 02:48 AM 6/5/2007, you wrote:
The PCBCart actual cost after shipping is $28
I have to make some beer money, my day job pays the bills :)
Your chinese guys can do good I guess...
Sullins does have 2 options for the pin spacing, The
Imsai has 0.250"
spacing. I'm sure that's the same as the other machines(haven't looked
inside my SOL).
The connectors do get alot cheaper at qty.50, then it's only $9ea
I'm always looking for more suppliers.
I'll have to get them to requote my connectors. The Altair uses a .125 row
spacing.. That might be why mine are more expensive.
6 Jun
6 Jun
8:44 a.m.
Grant Stockly wrote:
Ask for Rachel
Villarreal x119 rachel at edgecards.com
=Dan
[ beauty is in the eye of the beer holder ]
[ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ]
At 02:48 AM 6/5/2007, you wrote:
It's nothing new, the big guys (insert
company here) use them frequently.
The PCBCart actual cost after shipping is $28
I have to make some beer money, my day job pays the bills :)
Your chinese guys can do good I guess... Sullins does have 2 options for the pin spacing,
The Imsai has 0.250"
spacing. I'm sure that's the same as the other machines(haven't
looked inside my SOL).
The connectors do get alot cheaper at qty.50, then it's only $9ea
I'm always looking for more suppliers.
I'll have to get them to requote my connectors. The Altair uses a
.125 row spacing.. That might be why mine are more expensive.
6234
days inactive
6237
days old
16 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
cclist＠sydex.com -
dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu -
grant＠stockly.com -
hilpert＠cs.ubc.ca -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
ploopster＠gmail.com -
ragooman＠comcast.net -
RodSmallwood＠mail.ediconsulting.co.uk