Such as?

On Tue, 25 May 2004, der Mouse wrote: Well spoken. That does about sum it up for me as well. Their T&C is very limiting, controlling and impressive on its users, and claims no responsibility for its own fu^H^Hmess-ups, if and when those would occur. (besides, even eBay learned (the hard way) that use of their system by non-U.S. citizens cannot be governed by U.S. law, which is why they started doing local ones where people have to register in that local legal entity.) --fred

On Tue, 25 May 2004, der Mouse wrote: As I've explained before, you have to be a real fuck up for this to even come into play. If we are ever in a situation where legal action is required, we would be stupid to not make it easy for ourselves to sue an offending party. This is standard in business. I don't know any business that would say "if we sue you, we'll do you a favor and sue in your jurisdiction to make things easy for you". I don't ever expect (or at least I hope never) to have to sue anyone (or enter arbitration) over something that happens on the VCM. It's all fine and dandy when you're doing trading on a hobbyist basis but Patrick and I have opened ourselves up to some level of risk by hosting this service for public consumption, and we are covering our ass. I'm not going to apologize for that, nor are we going to waver on it. As long as you aren't scraping our site and causing problems with our server then I don't think you'll hear any fuss from us. Again, this is to cover our ass against any potential assholes out there who would make our lives difficult. I think this is splitting hairs. What's on your birth certificate? Or your driver's license? Or your passport? That is what you should use. We didn't think it would be necessary to spell this all out since "full legal name" is pretty basic. Why do we require this? To make sure all users are dealing in an open and honest manner. If we allowed aliases then fraud could ensue. If you want to sell under an alias then use the Usenet or some other mechanism that allows you to hide your identity for whatever reasons you deem necessary, and you assume whatever risk comes along with that mechanism. The VCM is intended to be a safe trading community for the vintage computing hobby and this is one step to ensure that. To expect otherwise is being disingenuous. This is also disingenuous. What would you like to do that you think risks crashing it accidentally? If you mean launching a DOS attack, or scraping huge volumes of data off the site (another form of DOS), then no, we don't want you doing that. Also, nothing in that clause refers to "accidental" activities. The system is pretty solid by now, but if an error does occur, it gets trapped and we're notified. If you make it your life's focus to try to crash our system then we're going to have a problem with that. This is all pretty basic. Not when we're offering this service for free. Would you also like that we turn on the TV and bring your milk and cookies to you on the sofa? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]

[Sellam] Right. Or more precisely, for you, or your successors-in-interest (which latter is more likely), to see me thus. Right, and it's one reason I don't trust businesses farther than I can throw them. Actions that are considered perfectly normal for a business would, in an individual, be considered psychopathic. It is perfectly normal for a business to try to get every legal advantage it can. That does not mean I should roll over and let them do so. In this case, it's not at all clear you could get more than an absentee judgement against me in any case, but (unlike, apparently, a lot of people) I refuse to pretend to agree to things I do not in fact agree to just because I know it's unlikely I'll ever be held to the agreement. (I also think this is way too small a thing to throw away what freedom I currently have to visit friends in California over.) This is why legal systems include rules governing jurisdiction. Your T&C attempt to brush aside those rules, which evolved for very good reason; I consider that unacceptable. I know perfectly well I won't, and I know perfectly well that what you're trying to stop bears little to no relation to what I want to do. I nevertheless refuse to agree not to do something when I still intend to do it - and the third alternative, just not fetching images, would rather severely cripple my use of the site (admittedly it might still be better than not using it at all, if that were the only issue). And my point is that it would be working _against_ that goal in my case. Using my "full legal name" (in the sense you mean it) _would_ be hiding, since that is not a name under which I have any significant reputation; I would be risking nothing, as compared to putting my reputation behind my actions by going by the only name I have used in my entire on-net existence. You are sliding from one thing to another. You are writing as though not using my "full legal name" is "hid[ing] [my] identity", by writing of the two as if they are the same. This is not so, and this is my point: using my "full legal name" _would_ be hiding my identity. (I know this from experience. One of the first computer-related conferences I was ever at, I started out introducing myself by my "full legal name"[%]. After a few blank looks which turned to recognition when I said who I was, I learned.) [%] Not quite, actually, as my "full legal name" is one that is commonly abbreviated, as Patricia is to Pat, or Michael to Mike, or Robert to Bob, or Deborah to Debbie; I used the abbreviated form. Still, your marketplace, your rules. I'm explaining why I find that point unacceptable; I don't really expect you to change anything in consequence, especially since you haven't after I already said more or less the same things in a different channel some time ago. Anything. I've seen software crash for the damnedest reasons. It could be anything from a host whose FQDN is more than twice as long as its dotted-quad form to a host whose address->name->address lookup returns an IPv6 address as well as an IPv4 address. I just don't know and can't guess. Exactly. There is no exemption for my _accidentally_ adversely affecting the performance or stability of the Site. "Activities that _may_" have such consequences is a tremendously broad brush, including such things as accidentally misconfiguring my reverse DNS in certain ways. No, I don't think the present VCM people are likely to misuse that clause. I (a) don't trust their successors-in-interest, especially since there is currently no clue who they might someday be, and (b) once again, refuse to agree not to do something when I fully expect to do it - even when I know what the prohibition is actually intended to prevent is not what I intend to do. [Patrick] To whom? In any case, still unreasonable. There is a reason choice-of-jurisdiction rules tend to make corporations come to individuals. And in banking circles, I use a different name. Is it therefore a nickname too? Note that I use it with significantly fewer people than I do the "der Mouse" one. (I have a significant number of meatspace acquaintances, including some fairly good friends, who don't even know any other name for me than the Mouse one. In a common-law jurisdiction (which Quebec isn't), I could probably get legal recognition for it as a name for me, even, if I cared to bother.) I think so. I just think that what you are asking for is not in line with that spirit and purpose - see what I wrote above on the subject. You don't have to argue it. In fact, I see little point; you have settled yourselves on that particular method of achieving that particular goal, and nobody's mind seems likely to change. Even if I think your means isn't a very good means - even if it _isn't_ a very good means and even if I'm an example of why - it's still your system and hence your prerogative to impose that restriction if you feel like it. I've pointed out the disagreement I see between what you asked for and what (I believe) you want; you presumably disagree, at least about whether it's worth changing the VCM ToS over. I don't see anything left to argue about. I know perfectly well you're not, and I don't think I ever even implied that you were. It most certainly was unintentional if I did. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse(a)rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

You don't know whether I'm a lawyer, only that I haven't said I am. (As it happens, I'm not.) I don't think you are either, "so stop trying to act like one". You doubtless have had legal advice over much of this; I too have, as it happens, consulted lawyers over some of the stuff I brought up. Of course. I don't expect you to do an individual version for me. If you agreed with my points, you'd change your T&C for everyone, and you would have already done so. The point this fragment spun off from is part of answering the question of why I don't/won't use the VCM, which is after all where this whole thread started. In a common-law jurisdiction, yes, I suspect they could, especially when the matter in question bore principally on my electronic identity. As far as I know that's never been tested, though I suspect (again, only "suspect") that not excessively dissimilar things have been done with other people involved. Certainly. That's why I refuse to use my muggle identity when dealing online, because there, it _is_ an alias, and _would_ be hiding my identity. Well, aside from the question-begging inherent in your calling it my "real name"-- I did it partly because FedEx is not an online entity (in this respect, ie, in the interaction between them and me that this would provoke) and thus the best name for me _for them_ is the one you're calling my "real name". (Even with that, I think you don't have my "real name", only another of my "alias"es, though you can probably infer my "real name" from it.) I did it partly because I expected you to be uncomfortable with asking FedEx to deliver to Mouse. I did it partly because I expected them to be uncomfortable with it too. I did it partly because I expected it to smooth things over at Customs clearance. All of these added up to enough to overcome my inherent resistance to crossing identities between personas. I don't like mixing the two identities, but to some degree it becomes inevitable when mixing worlds - as when schlepping computer hardware around, especially across international borders. So if I buy a GM car and GM has cause to sue me over it, they'll file in Michigan rather than Quebec? (Or wherever their head office is - I'm assuming Detroit.) Because everything I filled in _was_ true and correct. ("different name" here meant "different from the name under discussion", ie, from the Mouse name.) I was pointing out that "in computer circles" in no way inherently indicates that the name referred to is a "nickname", by drawing an analogy. Perhaps this was too obscure a way of pointing it out. I also use the Mouse identity in other, noncomputer, circles; "in computer circles" does not mean "in, and only in, computer circles". No; it's because Quebec is a civil-code jurisdiction, and the naming laws in effect here require that one have exactly one legal name - and for individual accounts, there are sound reasons (such as reporting interest to Revenue Canada Taxation or whatever they call themselves this week) for requiring my legal name on the account. If I had gone to the trouble to change my name legally, yes, I would expect them to accept it. Even now, I may well be able to get an account in the Mouse name, as long as I give them my legal name for their records; I haven't tried, because that's not a sphere in which it's especially important to me to use the Mouse identity. It is rather arrogant of you to tell me that the "battle" "against" the bank is more important than "quibbling" over the VCM's T&C; it is not for you to tell me what's more important to me than what else, and I disagree with it in so many other ways that if I try to deal with them all this message will be twice the size it is already. (I'll be happy to do so, offlist, with anyone who's interested.) Very well, then, perhaps it would be fairer to say that you don't have to continue to argue it? I think at this point it's clear (painfully clear, even) to any bystander that we disagree fairly fundamentally and neither of us is likely to change the other's mind. Since you imply you're responding only for the sake of third parties' opinions, I'm perfectly willing to attach a note, next time, about how it's all been hashed out before, to keep the same foofooraw from blowing up - care to suggest a wording? (I don't, of course, know for sure there will be a next time, but it seems likely.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse(a)rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Quothe der Mouse, from writings of Wed, May 26, 2004 at 12:34:32PM -0400: It's unlikely that anyone on this list would have so low an opinion of another list member that they'd stoop so low as to accuse one of being something as vile as a lawyer, MBA or politician. :-) -- Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved | My VAX | an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & www.rddavis.org | runs VMS & | her other creatures, using dogma to justify such 410-744-4900 | doesn't crash!| beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

Now if you had thought of that 500 years ago, kids would be learning about 'der Mouse' instead of Machiavelli. --- Thanks, Torquil MacCorkle, III Lexington, Virginia

11/10 which I've read is very similar to an 11/05. John A.

I don't see a big flipswitch circuit breaker on this old guy, nothing like the newer 11/34 that's here. There is a little 10A pushbutton, which has been depressed lately, but that's another story. <g>. This is a keyswitch front panel, with no key, so I opened it to the microswitches and tried pushing them to get the fans going, etc. and nothing. I judged, given the camming, that the lower switch (black,blue) was the panel unlock and the upper (grey,grey) the power. That might be incorrect. Also, the backpanel three pin connector described earlier came cabled, hence the suspicion that it was the/part of the power on. I'll try again tomorrow. John A.

I do need some definmitions. Power controller? Same as a power supply? This one has the PSU on the right side with no obvious switches that I've yet found (maybe I have to change my definition of obvious). Breaker as I said is a just a small button, or, it's hidden under a cover somewhere... more looking. 10.5 Not found (yet). This is one of the oldest PDP's made. Second model, I believe. CPU mains cable sounds obvious, but what I have may be the power controller cable(?) Like I said, please define it for me. Yes, I just looked around again with a flashlight, and peering under the varouus grillworks, stopping just short of removing the PSU cover. No circuitbreaker-switch. The two three pin ports that I mentioned first up are located directly in front of a fair sized relay. Will try switching there (and in front with the microswitches) at next opportunity, in a few hours. John A.

A power controller is another box which typically plugs into the main power source and has a number of switched and un-switched outlets. It also has some of those 3-pin connectors on it, usually one "in" and two "out", as well as a local/remote switch and circuit breaker. The power controller allows the connection of the 3-pin on the back of the CPU box to control the power of the entire rack of equipment at the turn of the key switch on the CPU. If you are talking about just your 11/10 box, then you don't need to worry about a power controller. Yes, this is just like my 11/05. There are likely to be fuses inside of the power supply as well, but you will need to consult the manual I pointed you at yesterday on this point. The key switch on the front of the CPU has 3 positions, OFF, POWER, and PANEL LOCK. Both POWER and PANEL LOCK should turn on the power supply, but the console switches will be disabled when in the PANEL LOCK position. The 'Remote' switch refers to the power controller which I described above. There isn't a 'Remote' switch on the 11/10 CPU itself. The term "mains" is European for A/C power cord. The two 3-pin connectors would normally run to the power controller (described above) and allow the CPU key switch to turn on/off the power controller's switched outlets, thus controlling the power of the other devices in the rack(s). You need to look in the schematics at the H750 and console panel drawings and figure out how to bypass your key switch, or get yourself a key. If it is the same basic (flat, not cylindrical) key that my 11/05 uses, I could have it copied for you. I also have the standard DEC cylinder key, which I can also have copied for you if you need. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1105S_Schem.pdf --tom

John> I do need some definmitions. John> Power controller? Same as a power supply? This one has the John> PSU on the right side with no obvious switches that I've yet John> found (maybe I have to change my definition of obvious). John> Breaker as I said is a just a small button, or, it's hidden John> under a cover somewhere... more looking. No, a power controller is a device you'll find in the larger DEC systems. Typically it's a separate rackmount box, found in the bottom of the back of the chassis. It distributes power to the various components in the rack, and contains circuit breakers and power sequencing relays. Look for something with a power inlet and a half dozen outlets on it, plus a 4?-wire plastic plug which is the sequencing control. The idea is that you'd hook all the power controllers together, and then the CPU power key would control all the power in the system even if it has multiple racks with multiple power inlets. paul

John, What model of PDP-11 is this? Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" &lt;allain(a)panix.com&gt; To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 4:54 PM Subject: H750 (PDP-11) power on?

From: Tom Uban, Wednesday Just got a chance to download and begin looking. Pages 169,170 show the three pin power on actuator that I'm looking at. In other places is the flipswitch circuit breaker that Tony describes and I don't have. Haven't found any thermal shut-off but I'm just starting. Thanks. John A.

What model? This sounds like the DEC power control bus. Don't assume the colour code is 'normal' -- in particular, don't assume that green is chassis ground. The 3 pins are common (0V), on/, and off/, Connecting on/ to common will energise a contactor in the power control unit and apply mains to the units in the rack. Disconnecting it will turn it off again (there is no latching). Connecting off/ to common will turn the system off, even if on/ is also connected to common (i.e. off/ has priority). Conventioally, the power switch (maybe a key-lock switch on the CPU panel) connects on/ to common. Thermal switches, to detect overheating, connect off/ to common. You will do no harm by shorting these wires together in any combination. -tony

On Wed, 26 May 2004, der Mouse wrote: After the above sentence, the rest of your message doesn't bear responding to. Save for this one: You started an unrelated thread to lob criticism of the VCM that you've already made at least twice in private conversations between you, Patrick, and I, that we adequately covered. To choose to bring it up yet again in a public forum is insulting and tells me that your argument is more about wanting to feed your own ego. If you don't want to use the VCM then fine, don't use it. If you don't like the policies then fine, don't use it. If, after all the time we've taken (at this point wasted) to explain why our policies are such--and even modifying them in some cases where you made a good point, you are still not satisfied, then that tells me you have absolutely no business sense and are arguing for the sake of arguing. The rest of your message proves this to me. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]

I went back and checked, and it _is_ at least partly my fault; this summary is slightly more favourable to me than the facts support. This spun off from my parenthetical note (not in response to a direct question to me) While I still don't think this was really _out of line_, it was not the best way I could have handled it - in particular, I did not need to name any of the reasons on the spot, and next time it comes up I intend to avoid doing so (and will try to avoid its blowing up the way it did this time, too, even if someone does ask specifically). The main reason I'm writing another note in this thread is This leads me to suspect that readers of this little flap may have gained an incorrect idea of my opinion of the VCM. I think it has problems, yes - but except for one that I think I saw Patrick agree with and say they'd fix, they are all peculiar to me in one way or another; and besides, what doesn't have problems? To be absolutely clear, I think the VCM is a very good thing, I'm glad it exists _even though_ I refuse to use it myself. I have great respect and admiration for Sellam. I bear him no ill will, over this or anything else. (I mention Sellam but not Patrick not because I think badly of Patrick but rather simply because I've interacted a good deal more with Sellam; I have insufficient experience of Patrick to have formed an opinion of him - that he's the other person behind the VCM does speak well of him, though.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse(a)rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

FYI GM is headquartered in the Renaissance Center in downtown Detroit (The big 7-tower skyscraper you see in almost all Detroit promotional material) It used to be in the New Center area just outside of downtown, in a *really* cool Albert Kahn designed building, which is now state of Michigan offices (A Kahn and Van Der Rohe deciple, Saarinen, designed the GM Technical Center in Warren, MI). Ford headquarters is a big campus in Dearborn, just west of Detroit, on M-10, the Southfield freeway, and Michigan Ave. Daimler-Chrysler North America (Formerly Chrysler) is in Auburn Hills on I-75, about half an hour north of Detroit. And no, there isn't a good way of getting old I.T. out of any of them, they lease everything, and have been for many years. The old stuff gets pushed onto off-lease buyers, or the dump. My friend, who's dad is an IT guy at DCX, did manage to snag an IBM RS/6000 notebook, though :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "David V. Corbin" &lt;dvcorbin(a)optonline.net&gt; To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 7:32 AM Subject: Legalities.. in corporate to Canada

This is essentially a me-too post, but I think that Patrick and Sellam have been very generous to offer the VCM service gratis (in fact, I have a couple giveaways to post on it coming up), and there's nothing at all unusual or unreasonable about the terms they've put usage under. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser(a)floodgap.com -- In memory of Bob Crane -----------------------------------------------------

A bit extreme, don't you think? You can talk about hackers vs. crackers till you are blue in the face, but the fact is that whatever 'hacker' is supposed to mean, it doesn't anymore. The media has changed it. To 98% of the population a hacker is someone, who maliciously breaks into computers. And there are several million newspaper/magazine/etc articles that document that. Why do people insist on the whole "being a hacker is good" thing. Does it really matter if you have to use a new word to describe it? Or is being so hardcore about using it just an attempt to make one sound 'experienced'? Beats me. -- Thanks, Torquil MacCorkle, III Lexington, Virginia

['hacker'] The problem is that one of the meanings has criminal, or at least very undesirable, overtones. If I say 'Oh, I was hacking last night' then people probably assume I was doing something illegal, rather than (say) figuring out how to read HP calculator disks on a PC, or writing a device driver for some homebrew hardware, or something else (a) legal and (b) interesting. YEs, but here it causes confusion, of a very undesirable sort! And I get _very_ annoyed by people who insist on misusing a term that I would feel honoured to be called (in the original sense). Perhaps you'd like to come up with some alternative term for 'hacker' in the original sense (a single, easy-to-remmeber word) and get it accepted everywhere. Then I _might_ be prepared to give up the original meaning of 'hacker'. Alternatively, just call criminals what they are! -tony

At 04:46 PM 5/26/2004 -0700, you wrote: Even in computing contexts, many people would say that methodical and consistent development work, i.e. the kind of thing someone familiar with Knuth and who is a trained software engineer, is better than something 'hacked together' by one guy at 4 in the morning. This is a very debatable topic, of course. But the myth of the 'greatest software' coming out of hacking sessions is generally rather dubious. Said 'greatest software' (i.e the much lauded Open Source/Free Software) usually comes out of _many_ so-called hacking sessions, with a huge amount of social interaction glueing the development together.

Sweet! Verbal tennis! I volley: http://www.machack.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Stevens" &lt;sastevens(a)earthlink.net&gt; To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 8:00 PM Subject: RE: for sale etiquette? Said usually

On Wed, 26 May 2004, der Mouse wrote: That was the analogy that the late Bob Bickford used 20 years ago.

On Thu, 27 May 2004, William Donzelli wrote: That's fat, homey! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]

R. D. Davis wrote: Oh, there are enough other words for happy. And there is no better word for gay than "gay". If you need a new word for happy and energetic, you can borrow the Japanese "genki". Language changes. Don't worry; be gay. - Joe

It was thus said that the Great R. D. Davis once stated: Cracker. Forget the script kiddies, the meaning I'm aware of is someone born, raised and lived only in the South (of the US---east of the Mississippi and below the Mason-Dixon line). Another term that pisses me off---computer. I'm sorry, but a computer is one who computes, not these new fangled machines. And what's with the abuse of "cab"? Cab ... short for cabriolet, which is a type of horse carriage. Not an ugly yellow car with black and white checkers on it. Sheesh! -spc (with all this language abuse, isn't gay at all!)

On 28 May 2004, R. D. Davis wrote: What about "white trash"? What the hell am I supposed to call my uncolored garbage? Read "Hackers" by Steven Levy (required reading for this list!) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]

On 28 May 2004, R. D. Davis wrote: Idunno. When my old man called me a "hacker", and what I was working on "hackwork", it was certainly not complementary, and had nothing to do with my (to date) unexpressed (complete lack of) skill with computers. Circa 1950s. Bill

On 28 May 2004, R. D. Davis wrote: My gawd this is ridiculous. Can't they have just ONE word out of the entire English language to themselves? Ok, there's also "queer" and "faggot" but those are all names GIVEN to them that they then co-opted to take away from the bigots. Aside from the fact that describing yourself in a happy way as "gay" is so quaint and Victorian anyway. I certainly wouldn't go around expressing myself like "I'm very gay because I got a raise at work. Yippee!" I'd rather be like, "Fuck yeah! More money to blow on shit!" Come on. EVOLVE! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]

Vintage Computer Festival &lt;vcf(a)siconic.com&gt; wrote: http://thelabelman.com/labels/lugs/Lgaycock.jpg -- tim lindner tlindner(a)ix.netcom.com

Rumor has it that tim lindner may have mentioned these words: And another, from the same site: http://thelabelman.com/labels/lugs/lbuxom.jpg Maybe this was the beginning of a particular use of these references? ;^> Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch(a)30below.com | ...in oxymoron!"

I certainly don't mind an occasional post of on-topic items for sale. What I would not want is regularly recurring posts such as a "hot items of the week" or that ilk. Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]

On Thu, 27 May 2004, Tony Duell wrote: Well, it is Lynx compatible, if you ever change your mind. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]

On Tue, 25 May 2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: Aside from der Mouse's concerns (which I've discussed with him at length) what do you find "funny" in the VCM terms & conditions? There's nothing in there you wouldn't find in any other typical T&C, and as I've explained to other folks before, it's basically a "Cover Our Ass" in case someone who annoys us needs to be dealt with in a legal manner. We've had to kill off only a handful of users (out of hundreds) who were simply too obnoxious to deal with, and that was after we gave them LOTS of leeway. You have to be a real prick to get kicked off the VCM. The only time anything serious from the Terms & Conditions comes into play is if there is a user that is actively defrauding other users, or using our site to defraud. As long as you don't fit that profile, you have nothing to worry about. The Terms & Conditions of the VCM are standard and fair. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]

While not wanting to get into a discussion on the entire set of T&C of VCM (or any other entity), the local juristicion issue is one that is indeed quite common and IMHO quite necessary. I am a (small) independent software developer. All of my contracts (i.e. those originated by my firm) contain this clause. I also work on a significant number of projects where the client has created the contract. Their contracts contain the same clause (i.e. legal proceedings must be local to THEM). It is a series of trade-off's. Many (most?) disputes are in a range that is covered by a "small claims" court, where the parties represent themselves [no attorney/solicitor]. Since the case must be heard at some physical location I see only four possibilities: 1) One of the two locations agreed to at contract signing. 2) The defendants location 3) The litigants location 4) PSC 468 Box 400 (South Pole Station) so we could see Ethan's wonderful collection! I doubt anyone would agree to item #4... Items 2 and 3 each present problems of bias. If the defendants location is consistantly chosen, it becomes virtually impossible to ever sue since the cost of travel to the destination would often exceed the amount of the suit. The reverse is true if the litigants location is always chosen, suits could become rampant since the defendant would spend more on travel than the cost of the suit. This leaves item #1 as the least of the evils. In my 20+ years in business, I have been both helped and hindered by this. Last November a customer in California (I am in New York) refused payment on work after nearly $3000 of usable product had been delivered, I had to take this as a write-off. About 2 years ago, a client many allegations against my firm, but since substantiating them (ie bringing a civil suit) would have involved travel from Europe to the US, the matter was (semi-)resolved, and then dropped. Not an ideal solution, I agree. But unless someone forms a legally binding Internet court [GOD FORBID!], I do believe these are the options we have. David.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" &lt;vcf(a)siconic.comTo: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.orgSent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 4:29 PM Subject: Re: for sale etiquette? > If you do list something to the VCM, a simple note to the list that you've > done so is not out of line with what people have traditionally done when > they put something up for sale or auction. > http://marketplace.vintage.org Since this appears to be the prevailing view, I will just mention the item I most want to find a caring home: An Apollo 19" DN550 monitor. It is untested, unshippable, and as such is free for anyone that wants to come get it. Currently resting in Tewksbury MA, awaiting pickup. It was working when it was put into storage 5 or so years ago. Cosmetically it is in good shape. We are cleaning out my father's storage sheds so time is becoming an issue with this one. I'm hoping this doesn't get added to the scrap heap. http://marketplace.vintage.org/view.cfm?ad=816

I personally find it nice to be able to browse the Classic Computer list to see what might be for sale (or for free!). I also don't mind folks "pointing" us to items for sale elsewhere, such as on VCM or eBay. I come here to talk about old computer stuff and hopefully find an occasional lead on an old item that may be of interest to me. I've hooked up with other folks here to find an old computer or peripheral or two, and I've also had folks contact me to work out a deal or a trade on some items that I've had. I've never received any "spam" from anyone relating to items of interest on the Classic Computer list. I find it a very good community to be a part of, and there are lots of folks with varying interests and varying levels of opinions on topics, no different than a face-to-face club in the real world. As far as the legal-ese on the VCM and eBay, I do agree that certain phrasing may be annoying, but I also agree with Sellam that it's there just as a CYA for those who might try to defraud others, etc. I've been in the software development and services field for 25 years and unfortunately, this type of language and wording is part of a typical and standard business agreement. I have used similar canned legal "Terms and Conditions" documents before when I've sold products or services. It is a very rare occasion that I've ever seen the legal-ese actually put to use, and usually it was with good reason when it was exercised. I won't hesitate to post items here and I hope others feel the same. That's one of the things that I like about this list. That's my two cents worth, for what it's worth! Ashley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces(a)classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Brian Mahoney Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 5:33 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: for sale etiquette? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Cymbal" &lt;d_cymbal(a)hotmail.com&gt; To: &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 4:17 PM Subject: for sale etiquette? putting VCM Personally, I don't find the ebay listings too bad, actually some of them are quite interesting and I see them as a kind of heads-up for something I would otherwise miss. But there have been a couple of posts lately that made me suspicious. I replied to one since the poster used a Canadian email addy but the source turned out to be in the states. The second one I've lost all details on but it seemed suspicious also. I guess if recognized members post, it's a good thing. I'm in the process of getting rid of some of my Hyperions (although not for sale) and the source came from here. bm

^^^^^^^ I b'lieve that's actually "Consul" - as in consular.... See a nit - pick a nit - ;} Cheers John PS: I had one: big, heavy beast - I think Hans glommed on to it...? don't remember...