17 Jun
2005
17 Jun
'05
10:56 a.m.
From: "Pete Turnbull" <pete at
dunnington.u-net.com>
On Jun 17 2005, 7:47, Cini, Richard wrote:
Hi Pete
You have to remember, these machines were designed
by electrical engineers, not an air flow expert. Yes,
the original used in blowing air.
I did a quick check of the temperatures of the boards
in my IMSAI with the in blowing air and some boards
seemed to get no flow at all. Reversing the flow made
a big difference. The powersupply in the IMSAI, at least
is large enough to need little more than some air flow.
The only parts that might get uncomfortable are the
filter caps. Any additional heat here is harder on them.
Still, after many hours of use, with almost a full
boat of 8K boards, I find the caps to be mildly warm.
While not specifically schooled in air flow, I did
work for a company that made burnin ovens. I learned
a lot about air flow there. We would often get request
Rules-of-thumb like this are great to know. The
fan, I'm sure,
was
installed (like the IMSAI) blowing IN because the
inside was caked
with
dust. So, I made it an exhaust fan (no filter).
As I work on the IMSAI, which has no filter either, I will swap
it
around, too.
Don't do that. If it's designed to blow in, changing the direction to
blowing out will alter and probably reduce the cooling. Why? Because
turbulent air is lots better at cooling than a laminar flow, and will
reach more parts of the case. You get turbulent air from the "blow"
side of a fan, but laminar flow towards the inlet side. You may also
be directing the airflow away fom some component that previously was
cooled, eg a PSU. Moreover, if you alter the flow direction so that
air is being sucked in through all the other orifices, it will be
entering via the fronts of disk drives etc (well, probably not on this
machine but I'm thinking of the general case). That's the last place
you want the dust. Far better it drops on the motherboard where you
can vacuum it out. Better still, fit a filter.
from customers to fix the airflow in in-house designed
chambers that had really poor temperature distribution.
Mil spec states how uniform the chamber should be.
Like I said, many of these were designed by electrical
engineers.
Dwight
17 Jun
17 Jun
11:27 a.m.
From: "Dwight K. Elvey" <dwight.elvey at amd.com>
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 12:56 PM
I recently had a few emails back and forth with Todd Fischer on the airflow
characteristics of the Imsai.
The fan was an option for the Imsai and is not required for normal operation
at all, personally I strongly recommend installing a good fan.
In the past I know of many people that would block some of the openings
around the chassis and have are flow one direction or the other to cool
specific cards.
It is a good idea to try and test the temperatures that are built up and not
just use the old here is the right answer don't worry approach.
After it has run for a while open the case and just use your hand to find
hot spots, it is common for some voltage regulators to get extremely hot.
If so try rearranging the cards to increase airflow where needed.
In general most S100 chassis prefer lots of cards to run cooler, more cards
alter airflow as well as pulling down the power-supply voltages which make
the regulators run cooler.
Todd Fischer's advice is to leave all the ventilation holes open to keep the
power-supply cooler.
Many other manufacturers believed it best to not have ventilation right
beside the power-supply forcing air over the S100 cards before reaching the
power-supply.
As I said my recommendation it to set it up then test it, change things and
test again.
Randy
www.s100-manuals.com
From:
"Pete Turnbull" <pete at dunnington.u-net.com>
On Jun 17 2005, 7:47, Cini, Richard wrote:
Hi Pete
You have to remember, these machines were designed
by electrical engineers, not an air flow expert. Yes,
the original used in blowing air.
I did a quick check of the temperatures of the boards
in my IMSAI with the in blowing air and some boards
seemed to get no flow at all. Reversing the flow made
a big difference. The powersupply in the IMSAI, at least
is large enough to need little more than some air flow.
The only parts that might get uncomfortable are the
filter caps. Any additional heat here is harder on them.
Still, after many hours of use, with almost a full
boat of 8K boards, I find the caps to be mildly warm.
While not specifically schooled in air flow, I did
work for a company that made burnin ovens. I learned
a lot about air flow there. We would often get request
from customers to fix the airflow in in-house designed
chambers that had really poor temperature distribution.
Mil spec states how uniform the chamber should be.
Like I said, many of these were designed by electrical
engineers.
Dwight Rules-of-thumb like this are great to know. The
fan, I'm sure,
was
installed (like the IMSAI) blowing IN because the
inside was caked
with
dust. So, I made it an exhaust fan (no filter).
As I work on the IMSAI, which has no filter either, I will swap
it
around, too.
Don't do that. If it's designed to blow in, changing the direction to
blowing out will alter and probably reduce the cooling. Why? Because
turbulent air is lots better at cooling than a laminar flow, and will
reach more parts of the case. You get turbulent air from the "blow"
side of a fan, but laminar flow towards the inlet side. You may also
be directing the airflow away fom some component that previously was
cooled, eg a PSU. Moreover, if you alter the flow direction so that
air is being sucked in through all the other orifices, it will be
entering via the fronts of disk drives etc (well, probably not on this
machine but I'm thinking of the general case). That's the last place
you want the dust. Far better it drops on the motherboard where you
can vacuum it out. Better still, fit a filter.
3:08 p.m.
Fred Cisin wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote:
I have a large drawer full of original parts, labeled as to the
machine they came out of and why.
For some reason, it never occured to me to label the machine itself
as altered. ;)
What I don't get - and this isn't flame bait, I really don't
understand - is the mania to preserve systems like S-100 sytems, big-box
Amigas, even PDP-11s, that very rarely show up in their factory
configuration.
I have one box-stock A3000 and one PDP-11/53 that seems to be as
delivered from DEC. The extent of hacking I've done is replacing the
dead hard drive, adding ZIP memory (from an A3000 that no longer needs
it), and installing Amiga UNIX. The 11/53 is all original, including
the OS (RSX11M+ on an RD32), software (centrifuge control), and molly
guard. I do have a couple of other Winchester drives that live in it
some of the time, for beating up on.
Nearly every other machine I have had been upgraded, altered, hacked,
or flat-out hack*sawed* to the owners' hearts' content, so why should I
enjoy them with any less gusto?
Doc
seemed to get no flow at all. Reversing the flow
made
a big difference.
Ahhhh,
then you will need to make a sign to put on it to state that the air flow
has been changed from the "historical" :-) 
5:53 p.m.
What I don't get - and this isn't flame
bait, I really don't
understand - is the mania to preserve systems like S-100 sytems, big-box
Amigas, even PDP-11s, that very rarely show up in their factory
configuration.
Oh, not this _again_....
I agree with you. Very few machines were unaltered between leaving the
factory and getting to you. There is no good reason why they can't be
altered some more...
My views are simple. I will do modifications if they make the machine
more useful. Obviously improving cooling airflow comes into this
category. I will not substantially change the design (and this includes
replacing linear PSUs with SMPSUs, for example), I won't make unnecessary
mods. And I'll keep documentation of what I've done.
-tony
6:29 p.m.
Tony wrote:
I will not substantially change the design (and this
includes
replacing linear PSUs with SMPSUs, for example),
I may well replace the PSUs in a KL10 with SMPSUs. That reduces the
operating costs by more than $30/day. Compuserve did this to their KL10s
in the last 1970s and throughout the 1980s. Compuserve purportedly sold
these mods to other DEC customers, and offered the design of their power
system to DEC, hoping to buy them preconfigured that way. But DEC wasn't
interested.
Eric
18 Jun
18 Jun
3:29 p.m.
I may well replace the PSUs in a KL10 with SMPSUs.
That reduces the
operating costs by more than $30/day. Compuserve did this to their KL10s
Why not replace them with a PC running an emulator and reduce the
operating costs still futher?
To me (a hardware hacker) the design of the PSU _is_ part of the design
of the machine, and should br preserved (I've seen at least as many
interesting PSU designs as, say, CPU designs...)
-tony
6:24 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote the single quoted stuff:
Why not? Because it doesn't have the same nostalgia factor as the real
hardware? Because it is fun to have real blinking lights instead of
emulated blinking lights? Because it is fun to touch the real item and
plug in real cards and connect real cables?
When I hold the real manuals for the computer I first learned to
program, it brings me back to that time in a way that can't be matched
(not even close) when viewing scans of the same pages on my monitor.
As someone who spends a lot of time writing emulators, I know just how
much can't be captured via emulation. For instance, one of the machines
I care about has 16 dedicated special function keys, but PC keyboards
have 12. You can (and I have) provide a work around for mapping the
missing keys, but it isn't the same as the real item. Differences like
that break the illusion, just like seeing a boom mike in the shot when
watching a movie.
I may well
replace the PSUs in a KL10 with SMPSUs. That reduces the
operating costs by more than $30/day. Compuserve did this to their KL10s
Why not replace them with a PC running an emulator and reduce the
operating costs still futher? To me (a hardware hacker) the design of the PSU _is_
part of the design
of the machine, and should br preserved (I've seen at least as many
interesting PSU designs as, say, CPU designs...)
Tony, you have to have a consistent story on this one. You don't have
$100 to buy a used but usable PC for the times that one is needed, but
you are critical of somebody who wants to swap out the power supply of
his computer to save $900/month on electricity. Would you advocate that
he leave in the original supply and then never use it? How is that a
better outcome?
6:38 p.m.
Tony, you have to have a consistent story on this one.
[...]
I don't see why he has to be consistent. Our hobby is - well, for most
of us it is - fundamentally an emotional one, and emotions often do not
follow logical rules. "A foolish consistency..."
I do, though, think it a bit excessive of Tony to, in effect, criticize
(or at least criticise :) others for not sharing his feelings here.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
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X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
19 Jun
19 Jun
11:43 a.m.
I do, though, think it a bit excessive of Tony to, in
effect, criticize
(or at least criticise :) others for not sharing his feelings here.
Well....
I am not, and never will be (I hope) a 'yes man'. I see no reason to
necessarily agree with anybody (eqyally, of course, I see no reason for
people to agree with me). I prefer to get the facts (and maybe opinions
of others) and to work out what I should do. Yes, I may well do the wrong
thing, in fact I often do the wrong thing. But at least I try to have a
reason for doing it.
This is claimed to be a discussion list IIRC. A discussion necessarily
has people with differeing viewpoints, it would be darn boring if not.
Equally, this list would be boring if everybody agreed with each other IMHO.
The fact that I criticise somebody (and I think that's a pretty strong
word for simply disagreeing with them) does not mean I think they're an
idiot. Or that they're necessarily wrong. It just means that I would do
something differently. My aim in posting such messages is to give an
alternative point of view. I don't expect to change everybody to my way
of thinking. In fact I don't expect to change anybody. I just feel I have
something that _may_ be worth considering.
Somebody else commented that I wouldn't spend $100 on a PC that he thinks
I need. Well, firstly of course, the total cost is a lot more than $100.
I've explained that before. And seconding _I_ don't think I need a PC. If
I think I need something, I find a way to buy it. Like the Myford lathe.
Or an other example, I don't have a digital camera, I don't see that I
need one. But I've bought a lot of film-based photographic equipment that
I consider to be more use to me than a digital thing. My choice, OK....
Now I presume the reason said person thinks I need a PC is to read
manuals as pdf files. I don't need a machine to do that. I have many of
the manauls I need as originals on paper. If I don't have them and
they're only available on pdfs, then I find a way to get them in a form I
can read. Maybe by using a machine in an internet cafe (an analogous
argument is that because I don't drive or own a car (true statements), I
can't, say, go to a place 100 miles away Of course I can, I can use
public transport).
What I have never done (I hope), at least not recently, is flame the
people who contribute to, or run, the pdf document archives on the web.
Becuase that's certainly not my intention. I regard them as a very useful
resource, even if _I_ can't make use of them easily.
-tony
1:16 p.m.
If it's really that big of a deal for licensed software, I have
About fifty Win95 license & cd kits sitting in a box... :)
How about a W3.11 license? Only got about 100 of them :/
On 6/19/05 2:43 PM, "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I do, though,
think it a bit excessive of Tony to, in effect, criticize
(or at least criticise :) others for not sharing his feelings here.
Well....
I am not, and never will be (I hope) a 'yes man'. I see no reason to
necessarily agree with anybody (eqyally, of course, I see no reason for
people to agree with me). I prefer to get the facts (and maybe opinions
of others) and to work out what I should do. Yes, I may well do the wrong
thing, in fact I often do the wrong thing. But at least I try to have a
reason for doing it.
This is claimed to be a discussion list IIRC. A discussion necessarily
has people with differeing viewpoints, it would be darn boring if not.
Equally, this list would be boring if everybody agreed with each other IMHO.
The fact that I criticise somebody (and I think that's a pretty strong
word for simply disagreeing with them) does not mean I think they're an
idiot. Or that they're necessarily wrong. It just means that I would do
something differently. My aim in posting such messages is to give an
alternative point of view. I don't expect to change everybody to my way
of thinking. In fact I don't expect to change anybody. I just feel I have
something that _may_ be worth considering.
Somebody else commented that I wouldn't spend $100 on a PC that he thinks
I need. Well, firstly of course, the total cost is a lot more than $100.
I've explained that before. And seconding _I_ don't think I need a PC. If
I think I need something, I find a way to buy it. Like the Myford lathe.
Or an other example, I don't have a digital camera, I don't see that I
need one. But I've bought a lot of film-based photographic equipment that
I consider to be more use to me than a digital thing. My choice, OK....
Now I presume the reason said person thinks I need a PC is to read
manuals as pdf files. I don't need a machine to do that. I have many of
the manauls I need as originals on paper. If I don't have them and
they're only available on pdfs, then I find a way to get them in a form I
can read. Maybe by using a machine in an internet cafe (an analogous
argument is that because I don't drive or own a car (true statements), I
can't, say, go to a place 100 miles away Of course I can, I can use
public transport).
What I have never done (I hope), at least not recently, is flame the
people who contribute to, or run, the pdf document archives on the web.
Becuase that's certainly not my intention. I regard them as a very useful
resource, even if _I_ can't make use of them easily.
-tony
2:29 p.m.
If it's really that big of a deal for licensed software, I have
About fifty Win95 license & cd kits sitting in a box... :)
How about a W3.11 license? Only got about 100 of them :/
No, it's not that. I believe it's perfectly possible to view and print
pdfs using free software under a free operating system.
The exrta costs, over the cost of the PC, are things like the broadband
connection (I am not going to try to download a 10Mbyte file with a 14k4
modem...), the equipment to maintain and repair the PC (things like a BGA
rework station, a faster 'scope and logic analyser than the ones I
already have, etc), and, of course, a house extension to put said PC in.
-tony
3:12 p.m.
Dang, seems an awful lot to maintain something that, in my
experience, has a very low failure rate... I've had three
harddrives go up on me (Admittingly, IBM DEATHSTARTS), one
motherboard that ate ram for Breakfast!
My current general use machine is a P2 400 I've had for
about five years (IIRC), and it hasn't suffered a single failure
in that time. I do have a faster P4 1.5GHz, but it's in
more of a server roll then anything else.
Though recently, I'm finding I havn't even powered up any of the
machines on my desk and instead just use the iBook I have.
Perhaps a cheap laptop off ebay of decent ability (Say a P2
or similar) would suit you well? Even something with dead
battery (Which, I'm sure you'd get around to repairing :))
I use my laptop in such a capacity, as a portable document
archive.
I understand the urges to be able to repair your equipment,
but dosn't it stop somewhere? :)
Of course, can't refute the argument about the internet
connection :)
On 6/19/05 5:29 PM, "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
If it's really that big of a deal for licensed software, I have
About fifty Win95 license & cd kits sitting in a box... :)
How about a W3.11 license? Only got about 100 of them :/
No, it's not that. I believe it's perfectly possible to view and print
pdfs using free software under a free operating system.
The exrta costs, over the cost of the PC, are things like the broadband
connection (I am not going to try to download a 10Mbyte file with a 14k4
modem...), the equipment to maintain and repair the PC (things like a BGA
rework station, a faster 'scope and logic analyser than the ones I
already have, etc), and, of course, a house extension to put said PC in.
-tony
4:19 p.m.
Dang, seems an awful lot to maintain something that, in my
experience, has a very low failure rate... I've had three
Low does not equal zero :-). HP calculators were built extremely well,
they had a low failure rate, but I am glad I produced repair info for
many of them.
harddrives go up on me (Admittingly, IBM DEATHSTARTS),
one
motherboard that ate ram for Breakfast!
Now, you see, I'd have wanted to figure out what was wrong with said
motherboard _before_ it damaged more than one set of RAMs.
Perhaps a cheap laptop off ebay of decent ability (Say
a P2
or similar) would suit you well? Even something with dead
Laptops are even more difficult to work on, even more difficult to find
parts for (even board-level spares are often hard to find), and have no
expansion slots....
I understand the urges to be able to repair your
equipment,
but dosn't it stop somewhere? :)
I guess it does. I don't -- yet -- haev a clean room to repair
winchester-type hard drives. Although I have considered some kind of
'clean box' to work on the physically larger winchseters, like the 8" and
14" drives in some of my classics.
But I really don't think I have anything else that I couldn't repair if
I had to. And that's the way I intend to keep things.
Of course, can't refute the argument about the internet
connection :)
Or the space. The dexktop area needed by a laptop and printer is not that
much smaller than that needed by a desktop PC + not-too-large monitor +
printer.
-tony
4:50 p.m.
On 6/19/05 7:19 PM, "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Give me credit that I realized it was eating the ram, I was 11! :)
Understandably worried about failure, I can see where this might
Be limiting, but you wouldn't need to print if you could view
Onscreen, no? Though I understand how some people prefer
Paper to screen, sometimes it works better and is
More economical then printing out.
harddrives go
up on me (Admittingly, IBM DEATHSTARTS), one
motherboard that ate ram for Breakfast!
Now, you see, I'd have wanted to figure out what was wrong with said
motherboard _before_ it damaged more than one set of RAMs.
Of course, can't refute the argument about the internet
connection :)
Or the space. The dexktop area needed by a laptop and printer is not that
much smaller than that needed by a desktop PC + not-too-large monitor +
printer.
20 Jun
20 Jun
3:21 p.m.
Or the space.
The dexktop area needed by a laptop and printer is not that
much smaller than that needed by a desktop PC + not-too-large monitor +
printer.
Understandably worried about failure, I can see where this might
Be limiting, but you wouldn't need to print if you could view
Onscreen, no? Though I understand how some people prefer
Paper to screen, sometimes it works better and is
More economical then printing out. 
21 Jun
21 Jun
1:02 a.m.
Hi,
Tony Duell said:
[1] THe often-cited advantage of electronic docuemnts
-- that you can
search them -- doesn't apply to containers of scanned images.
You can say that again! I spent *ages* the other day looking through
PDF scans of RT-11 and RSTS/E docs to find out where and how PDP-11
systems store the pack-id on disks! It's much quicker to flip through
a paper manual.
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
22 Jun
22 Jun
4:44 a.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Hang on though, a motherboard is a cheap(-ish) off-the-shelf component.
What do you do if a bearing goes bad? Do you buy a new bearing, or do
you build up the track with weld, grind it back, and have it hard chromed?
Me, I keep an SKF catalogue handy...
That actually sounds like an useful and easy thing to make. Something
like a big glovebox, possibly. You might not get your 14" drives in.
You may be able to adapt a sandblasting cabinet - it's designed to keep
dust *in*, so it should be OK at keeping dust *out*.
It's still not a lot of space.
Gordon.
harddrives go
up on me (Admittingly, IBM DEATHSTARTS), one
motherboard that ate ram for Breakfast!
Now, you see, I'd have wanted to figure out what was wrong with said
motherboard _before_ it damaged more than one set of RAMs. I understand
the urges to be able to repair your equipment,
but dosn't it stop somewhere? :)
I guess it does. I don't -- yet -- haev a clean room to repair
winchester-type hard drives. Although I have considered some kind of
'clean box' to work on the physically larger winchseters, like the 8" and
14" drives in some of my classics. Of course,
can't refute the argument about the internet
connection :)
Or the space. The dexktop area needed by a laptop and printer is not that
much smaller than that needed by a desktop PC + not-too-large monitor +
printer.
12:49 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Hang on though, a motherboard is a cheap(-ish) off-the-shelf component.
What do you do if a bearing goes bad? Do you buy a new bearing, or do
you build up the track with weld, grind it back, and have it hard chromed?
Depends on the bearing. For a ball or roller race, I replace it -- it's a
standard part. For something like a phosphor bronze bush, I might well
make my own replacement. It would depend on the ease of getting the
original part, the lead time on it, etc...
There is one other bif difference. If I need a ball race for a 10-year-old
motor, I can almost certainly get it, off the shelf. If not, then it's
not too hard to modify the motor housing to take a bearing I can get.
Now just try getting a new motherboard for a 10 year old PC. One that
will use the same processor, memory, and expansion cards. I think you'll
have problems. Heck, even the case and PSU might need to be changed. I
have no intention of replacing the whole machine every time some trivial
component fails.
harddrives
go up on me (Admittingly, IBM DEATHSTARTS), one
motherboard that ate ram for Breakfast!
Now, you see, I'd have wanted to figure out what was wrong with said
motherboard _before_ it damaged more than one set of RAMs. I guess it
does. I don't -- yet -- haev a clean room to repair
winchester-type hard drives. Although I have considered some kind of
'clean box' to work on the physically larger winchseters, like the 8" and
14" drives in some of my classics.
That actually sounds like an useful and easy thing to make. Something
like a big glovebox, possibly. You might not get your 14" drives in. You may be able to adapt a sandblasting cabinet -
it's designed to keep
dust *in*, so it should be OK at keeping dust *out*.
Incidentally, one of the older demountables -- I think it was the DEC
RK01 -- used a standard car air filter as the absolute filter. You might
get away with something like that, and a suitable fan, to run the 'clean box'
Of course,
can't refute the argument about the internet
connection :)
Or the space. The dexktop area needed by a laptop and printer is not that
much smaller than that needed by a desktop PC + not-too-large monitor +
printer.
3:11 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Incidentally, one of the older demountables -- I think it was the DEC
RK01 -- used a standard car air filter as the absolute filter. You might
get away with something like that, and a suitable fan, to run the 'clean box'
I did notice that the air filter on the RL02 was suspiciously similar in
size to the air filter for a Citro?n AX diesel. it's the right width,
anyway - you'd chop it down and lose the rubber seal off one side. You
could bodge that with RTV silicone.
Gordon.
20 Jun
20 Jun
5:50 a.m.
At 04:29 PM 6/19/2005, Tony Duell wrote:
The exrta costs, over the cost of the PC, are things
like the broadband
connection (I am not going to try to download a 10Mbyte file with a 14k4
modem...), the equipment to maintain and repair the PC (things like a BGA
rework station, a faster 'scope and logic analyser than the ones I
already have, etc), and, of course, a house extension to put said PC in.
There's no need to repair the hardware of a PC. If you're as
frugal as you indicate, and can leave the house to rub shoulders
with other computer users, you will find an unending stream of
cast-off free-or-nearly-so PCs from three PC generations
(four-five years) ago. As for the price of digital information:
it's about time, it's about space.
If you want to continue the frugal theme, doesn't your public
library offer free high-speed Internet access?
- John
4:29 p.m.
At 04:29 PM 6/19/2005, Tony Duell wrote:
There is for me. Period. I am not using things I don't understand and
can't repair.
The exrta costs, over the cost of the PC, are
things like the broadband
connection (I am not going to try to download a 10Mbyte file with a 14k4
modem...), the equipment to maintain and repair the PC (things like a BGA
rework station, a faster 'scope and logic analyser than the ones I
already have, etc), and, of course, a house extension to put said PC in.
There's no need to repair the hardware of a PC. If you're as frugal as you indicate, and can leave the house to rub
shoulders
with other computer users, you will find an unending stream of
cast-off free-or-nearly-so PCs from three PC generations
I've never found such people. The only remotely PC-biased hacker I know
actively collectes 486s and later to run linux on. So he's not going to
be a source od machines.
(four-five years) ago. As for the price of digital
information:
it's about time, it's about space.
I don't undersntand that comment.
If you want to continue the frugal theme, doesn't your public
library offer free high-speed Internet access?
I don't think it's free, and they have restrictions on what you can look
at. Specifically, no copyrighted stuff without the permission of the
copyright owner. So technically bitsavers is out, and the librarians are
the sort of people to notice this and complain.
-tony
21 Jun
21 Jun
9:17 a.m.
On 6/20/05 7:29 PM, "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I give up :) You can't win this debate!
There's no need to repair the hardware of a PC. If you're as
There is for me. Period. I am not using things I don't understand and
can't repair.
frugal as you indicate, and can leave the house
to rub shoulders
with other computer users, you will find an unending stream of
cast-off free-or-nearly-so PCs from three PC generations
I've never found such people. The only remotely PC-biased hacker I know
actively collectes 486s and later to run linux on. So he's not going to
be a source od machines.
19 Jun
19 Jun
3:03 p.m.
[...] of Tony
to, in effect, criticize (or at least criticise :)
others for not sharing his feelings here.
The fact that I criticise somebody (and
I think that's a pretty
strong word for simply disagreeing with them)
18 Jun
18 Jun
6:40 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote the single quoted stuff:
Why not? Because it doesn't have the same nostalgia factor as the real
You do realise I was being sarcastic, I hope.
I, probably more than anybody here, like to run the real hardware. I like
to use the origianl storage devices, terminals, etc wherever possible.
Yes I might add modeen stuff _as well_, but I keep the original stuff going.
I am very much a hardware person. To me a computer is a complicated
(normally) electronic circuit. I am interested in the complete circuit,
not just the CPU. That's one little bit of it. Other parts, including the
PSU, can be interesting too.
I may well
replace the PSUs in a KL10 with SMPSUs. That reduces the
operating costs by more than $30/day. Compuserve did this to their KL10s
Why not replace them with a PC running an emulator and reduce the
operating costs still futher? hardware? Because it is fun to have real blinking
lights instead of
emulated blinking lights? Because it is fun to touch the real item and
plug in real cards and connect real cables?
Of course.
To me (a
hardware hacker) the design of the PSU _is_ part of the design
of the machine, and should br preserved (I've seen at least as many
interesting PSU designs as, say, CPU designs...)
Tony, you have to have a consistent story on this one. You don't have
$100 to buy a used but usable PC for the times that one is needed, but you are critical of somebody who wants to swap out the
power supply of
his computer to save $900/month on electricity. Would you advocate that
he leave in the original supply and then never use it? How is that a
better outcome?
I'd probably rather want to reduce the operating hours (but not to zero),
and keep the machine original.
-tony
22 Jun
22 Jun
4:32 a.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
OK, so you've got the running costs. Let's just look at that:
<clamp meter on 4-way extension strip cable to my PC>
... about 200 watts, less a bit for the hifi amp and mixer that are
currently running. Say 120-150 watts for a Duron 1100 and a 19"
monitor, that is run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Probably about as
much power as the cooling fans alone in my PDP11 rack.
Not really a lot, is it?
Gordon.
Tony, you have to have a consistent story on this one. You don't have
$100 to buy a used but usable PC for the times that one is needed, but
You know full well that $100 is by no means the total cost of ownership
for that PC for the length of time I'll want to be using it.
10:56 a.m.
> You know full well that $100 is by no means the
total cost of
> ownership for that PC for the length of time I'll want to be using
> it.
OK, so you've got the running costs. Let's
just look at that: [...]
You've also got repair costs - $100 peecees break[%]. You've got
sysadmin costs, mostly in time (they will be higher for Tony than for
people who already have such machines around, because integrating a
`different' box is always more difficult). And then you've got the
distaste factor, which is probably the largest cost of the lot (it
certainly would be for me).
[%] I run about a half-dozen machines 24/7. Most of them are Suns,
which are Timexes (take a lickin' and keep on tickin'), but there
are two machines with peecee-class hardware. They need more
attention (repairs and replacement parts) than the rest of my
network put together, by a factor of at *least* two or three.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
12:44 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
OK, so you've got the running costs. Let's just look at that:
I have said this many time... The costs I am taliing about are the costs
to get the tools and test gear to be able to maintain that machine for as
long as I want to use it.
Tony, you have to have a consistent story on this one. You don't have
$100 to buy a used but usable PC for the times that one is needed, but
You know full well that $100 is by no means the total cost of ownership
for that PC for the length of time I'll want to be using it.
<clamp meter on 4-way extension strip cable to my
PC>
... about 200 watts, less a bit for the hifi amp and mixer that are
currently running. Say 120-150 watts for a Duron 1100 and a 19"
monitor, that is run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Probably about as
much power as the cooling fans alone in my PDP11 rack.
Not really a lot, is it?
More than the electricity costs of reading a book (either by daylight or
by compact fluorescent lamp at night)....
-tony
17 Jun
17 Jun
8:39 p.m.
From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 7:53 PM
If you go to www.imsai.net you will find a file that contains several user
supplied mods to the front panel. Imsai collected the mods and made them
available to other customers. Cromemco had their own mods for the Z1.
Modifying a classic system was normal a museum could show the system as
factory original or modified to support a particular piece of hardware.
Imsai and other manufacturers understood this, if you look at the Imsai MIO
you will find more options than any other board I am aware of.
I believe in keeping to the original but I also believe what the original
was counts too.
If a disk controller has a data separator added that's good.
Some people repainted the cases (tan/brown was very popular), I would keep a
tan/brown computer as is I might repaint it back to blue but I would never
paint an original colored case to a non original color..
I take issue on some things like cutting holes or like a recent post
removing a large filter cap and replacing it with two smaller caps, even
changing screws when you still have the originals.
If you need to replace something bad try to replace it with an original
style piece.
If it is unreliable or doesn't work fix it even if it means changing from
the original, otherwise you just have a pretty boat anchor.
Randy
www.s100-manuals.com
What I
don't get - and this isn't flame bait, I really don't
understand - is the mania to preserve systems like S-100 sytems, big-box
Amigas, even PDP-11s, that very rarely show up in their factory
configuration.
Oh, not this _again_....
I agree with you. Very few machines were unaltered between leaving the
factory and getting to you. There is no good reason why they can't be
altered some more...
My views are simple. I will do modifications if they make the machine
more useful. Obviously improving cooling airflow comes into this
category. I will not substantially change the design (and this includes
replacing linear PSUs with SMPSUs, for example), I won't make unnecessary
mods. And I'll keep documentation of what I've done.
-tony
18 Jun
18 Jun
3:43 p.m.
I take issue on some things like cutting holes or like
a recent post
I try not to make holes larger than screw holes (for sensibly-sized
screws). But if I have to replace, say, a transformer and the new one is
not idetnical to the old, I'd rather drill an extra mounting hole or 2
than leave that transformer hanging on one screw.
removing a large filter cap and replacing it with two
smaller caps, even
If the original filter cap is unavailable, then I would replace it with 2
smaller ones in parallel (better than having a non-working machine,
surely). I'd use the right part if I could get it though.
changing screws when you still have the originals.
Let's not start that again...
-tony
5:41 p.m.
Interestingly, the Altair in question had two large caps in parallel
floating around in the case, tied to a card bracket with a twist-tie.
One of the previous owners must have replaced the original single
90,000uF cap with two.
$30 later from Mouser, I bought a single Sprague 100,000uF/40v cap to
replace the two and bolted it into the existing 3" bracket.
Original? No, but neither was the earlier repair. At least it fits in
the mounting bracket and exceeds the original specs.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 6:44 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Altair Fan
I take issue on some things like cutting holes or like
a recent post
I try not to make holes larger than screw holes (for sensibly-sized
screws). But if I have to replace, say, a transformer and the new one is
not idetnical to the old, I'd rather drill an extra mounting hole or 2
than leave that transformer hanging on one screw.
removing a large filter cap and replacing it with two
smaller caps,
even
If the original filter cap is unavailable, then I would replace it with
2
smaller ones in parallel (better than having a non-working machine,
surely). I'd use the right part if I could get it though.
changing screws when you still have the originals.
Let's not start that again...
-tony
19 Jun
19 Jun
3:43 p.m.
From: "Richard A. Cini" <rcini at optonline.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 7:41 PM
Interestingly, the Altair in question had two large
caps in parallel
floating around in the case, tied to a card bracket with a twist-tie.
One of the previous owners must have replaced the original single
90,000uF cap with two.
$30 later from Mouser, I bought a single Sprague 100,000uF/40v cap to
replace the two and bolted it into the existing 3" bracket.
Original? No, but neither was the earlier repair. At least it fits in
the mounting bracket and exceeds the original specs.
<snip>
When I posted a message talking specifically about your altair I knew where
to find the "right" caps, it is too easy to fix it right.
If you have to replace a part such as a transformer with one with different
mounting hole to keep it working then do it please keep it working.
If it is too expensive to run with a linear power supply and if going to a
different power supply means it will be used then please save the parts you
have to remove.
I hate it when people cut holes for cables when with a little effort they
don't need to please don't.
There are many people with many goals that can all be considered correct by
me:
People that want it running right (even it it means replacing some pieces to
newer technology).
People that are interested in 100% original even if it doesn't work.
Etc.
Please just avaoid the in the dumpster rule.
Randy
www.s100-manuals.com
17 Jun
17 Jun
8:30 p.m.
At 01:08 PM 6/17/05 -0700, Fran wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote:
Only if you're completely anal!
Joe
seemed to get no flow at all. Reversing the flow
made
a big difference.
Ahhhh,
then you will need to make a sign to put on it to state that the air flow
has been changed from the "historical" :-)
18 Jun
18 Jun
12:30 a.m.
At 01:08 PM 6/17/05 -0700, Fran wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jun 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote:
Only if you're completely anal!
Joe
seemed to get no flow at all. Reversing the flow
made
a big difference.
Ahhhh,
then you will need to make a sign to put on it to state that the air flow
has been changed from the "historical" :-)
8:56 a.m.
At 02:30 AM 6/18/2005, Joe R. wrote:
Maybe this should be a new category at the VCF: Most properly
tagged and archived PC. Take an old computer, change a few screws,
clean the dust filters, wipe off original dirt, and then be sure
to cover it in little tags and notes and cloth bags with strings
containing the original screws. Perfectly archived, ready to
survive the coming apocalypse.
- John
then you will
need to make a sign to put on it to state that the air flow
has been changed from the "historical" :-)
Only if you're
completely anal! 
9:11 a.m.
Rumor has it that John Foust may have mentioned these words:
At 02:30 AM 6/18/2005, Joe R. wrote:
Maybe this should be a new category at the VCF: Most properly
tagged and archived PC. Take an old computer, change a few screws,
clean the dust filters, wipe off original dirt, and then be sure
to cover it in little tags and notes and cloth bags with strings
containing the original screws.
Don't forget the cloth bag containing the original dirt! ;^>
Or... Take the dirt down to your local biometrics testing lab, and have a
full DNA workup done on it - you could use that as a "previous owner
provenance." Bwaaahaaahaaahaaahaaa!!!
then you
will need to make a sign to put on it to state that the air flow
has been changed from the "historical" :-)
Only if you're
completely anal! Perfectly archived, ready to survive the coming
apocalypse.
Taco-lips? Nah, I had duck last nite. (tho I did have guacamole & chips for
a snack afterwards... ;-)
Laterz,
"Merch"
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan
SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy...
zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!"
11:12 a.m.
On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, John Foust wrote:
At 02:30 AM 6/18/2005, Joe R. wrote:
Maybe this should be a new category at the VCF: Most properly
tagged and archived PC. Take an old computer, change a few screws,
clean the dust filters, wipe off original dirt, and then be sure
to cover it in little tags and notes and cloth bags with strings
containing the original screws. Perfectly archived, ready to
survive the coming apocalypse.
While not explicitly stated in the rules (perhaps it should be) this sort
of documentation is taken into account by the judges.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
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then you
will need to make a sign to put on it to state that the air flow
has been changed from the "historical" :-)
Only if you're
completely anal!
7124
days inactive
7129
days old
36 comments
16 participants
participants (16)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cctalk＠randy482.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
dwight.elvey＠amd.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
frustum＠pacbell.net -
gordon＠gjcp.net -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
mokuba＠gmail.com -
mouse＠Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA -
rcini＠optonline.net -
rigdonj＠cfl.rr.com -
stanb＠dial.pipex.com -
vcf＠siconic.com -
zmerch＠30below.com