12 Jan
1999
12 Jan
'99
12:15 p.m.
This'll probably offend many.
(followed by a
description of a circa 1991 powerhouse system)
Well, it has been shown that it's not any more challenging to learn UNIX
than Windows than DOS than MS BASIC 2.0 if it's the first exposure to
computers. I think that if it can be helped, a person's first exposure
should be as encouraging of good computing habits as possible. This means
not windows, and preferrably not macintosh. Just like many intelligent
people like to say that a child should learn to do manual calculations
before using a calculator, same with this. A child should get a proper
introduction to computers. No child needs to be stuck with stupid
paintbrush programs for four years before graduating to doom.
I agree with a C-64, though that's not really to great either. I recommend
either a UNIX/Linux system, because that will allow learning about networks
and so on, or a machine like a PDP-8 or an Altair that would encourage
really low-level tinkering. I hope no one here makes the decision to raise
a Microserf!
12 Jan
12 Jan
1:15 p.m.
On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Max Eskin wrote:
(followed by a description of a circa 1991 powerhouse
system)
Actually, a relatively state of the art system of 1988, and therefore
within the charter of the list :-)
I stand guilty as charged of describing a general purpose learning tool,
rather than a system specifically for learning about computers. (BTW,
I did NOT mention or suggest ANY sound capability).
As expected, many were put off at the concept of learning BASIC on a PC
clone.
Is there any reason that the kid should be limited to only ONE computer??
Provide a "general purpose learning tool" with easy access to word
processing and similar tools, and easy access to reference materials and
online information resources; AND,
IN ADDITION, a more minimal machine for studying the computer itself.
(maybe one of those ZX81 kits? And some bulbs to connect in series and
parallel. Surely an 8 year old should be ready to solder!)
--
Fred Cisin cisin(a)xenosoft.com
XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com
2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366
Berkeley, CA 94710-2219
2:05 p.m.
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13 Jan
13 Jan
12:12 p.m.
Tony Duell said...
|
|> IN ADDITION, a more minimal machine for studying the computer itself.
|> (maybe one of those ZX81 kits? And some bulbs to connect in series and
|> parallel. Surely an 8 year old should be ready to solder!)
|
|I don't know if this is a joke or not, but FWIW when I was 8, I was quite
|happy with a soldering iron.
I don't know that all 8 y/os have the coordination to solder,
and some won't have the patience. I'd start with plugboards
or spring-based kits at first, to get them interested if the
latter is a problem. Others wil need close supervision because
of that attention thing, or a tendancy to experiment a little
too much (``now why did Dad and Mom say I should keep this away
from the drapes?'')
On the other hand, 9 or 10, I had discovered that my woodworking
iron also made a great soldering and desoldering iron.
-Miles
2:05 p.m.
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2:47 p.m.
New subject: Computers for children (soldering)
Not _all_ 8 year olds will be able to solder, or will
want to solder, but
some will. And there's no reason not to let them have a go if they want
to. It never did me any harm...
Heh. Depends on how you define "harm". I have a permanent scar up my left
wrist where I was soldering some HO scale train track together with the solder
gun. All things considered it was a learning experience... mind where your
gun tip is at all times. :) Seriously, a lot of people would cringe at the
idea of their child doing that, but c'mon, folks... I lived. :)
As far as good kits, Tech America, Frys (for those of you in the SF bay area)
and a number of the surplus houses sell honest to god solder the component on
the board kits. Jameco also has them.
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
5:41 p.m.
New subject: Computers for children (soldering)
Jim Strickland said...
|
|Heh. Depends on how you define "harm". I have a permanent scar up my left
|wrist where I was soldering some HO scale train track together with the solder
|gun.
Well, I was thinking of soldering electronic circuits
with small components. A low wattage soldering iron, not a
gun.
This can still burn you but isn't likely to leave a lifelong
scar if you get one at an early age.
(It's been years since anyone could tell I ever dropped one
on my foot. The moral of that storyt, of course, is to always
wear full motocross armor when soldering. 8^)
-Miles
14 Jan
14 Jan
11:53 a.m.
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6:44 p.m.
New subject: Computers for children (soldering)
Tony Duell said...
|
|Not too low a wattage, please, or you are likely to damage some
|components. Any soldering iron is hot enough to damage semiconductors, so
|the aim should be to make each joint quickly enough to avoid providing
|enough heat to wark the components significantly. A 25W iron is about
|right IMHO, unless you can afford a nice temperature-controlled one.
Ugh. I meant to suggest a 25W or 30W iron.
I've got the brain flu of something this week.
And don't forget the solder wick for desoldering...
15 Jan
15 Jan
7:50 a.m.
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1:45 p.m.
New subject: Desoldering (was Re: Computers for children (soldering)
At 06:50 PM 1/15/99 +0000, Tony wrote:
I'd love a proper vacuum desolder station, but
it's rather out of my
price range, and not essential...
So would I, however a while back (5 years?) someone on sci.electronics
reccomended the desoldering iron that Radio Shack (Tandy in your woods I
believe) sold. This $8.99 wonder was basically a soldering iron with a bulb
on top and a pipe to the tip. This thing works _great_! I the soldapult's
would always fire too late or I'd take to long to get it on to the joint
and that would be a problem. Not the RS tool. I push the bulb, stick the
lead in the suction hole, when the solder melts and the tool settles down
to the PCB you quickly let go your thumb and poof! quite clean hole with
the lead free standing in the middle of it. I've pulled 14 pin ICs using
this thing and kept both the board and chip intact!
--Chuck
2:21 p.m.
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6:31 p.m.
New subject: Desoldering (was Re: Computers for children (soldering)
On or about 04:45 PM 1/15/99 -0800, Chuck McManis was caught in a dark
alley speaking these words:
So would I, however a while back (5 years?) someone on
sci.electronics
reccomended the desoldering iron that Radio Shack (Tandy in your woods I
believe) sold. This $8.99 wonder was basically a soldering iron with a bulb
on top and a pipe to the tip. This thing works _great_!
Yea, well... they work even better if you get the iron-clad tips, otherwise
when you're working with older boards that (at least seem to) have more
acidic resins, the cheezier tips don't last very long.
That, and 5x suction would be nice... been dreaming about hooking up my
shopvac to the thing (Tim Allen, eat your heart out... ;-) but never got
around to it...
See ya,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
=====
Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch(a)30below.com
SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers
===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: =====
for (1..15) { print "Merry Christmas\n"; }
(from perl.1 man page, version 4.)
14 Jan
14 Jan
11:37 a.m.
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4:24 p.m.
New subject: Computers for children (soldering)
Date sent: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:37:38 +0000 (GMT)
Send reply to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
From: ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Computers for children (soldering)
I've had dozens of scars as a result of using tools. Doesn't really worry
me a bit. Sure it's painful at the time, but I'm still here, right, and
although I don't like the pain, the final result is worth it.
I've burned myself several times with a soldering iron -- teaches you the basic
rules that A) A hot soldering iron looks exactly like a cold one; and B) Ditto for
solder.
Also have a couple of scars on my left thumb and a numb section where I
learned that you shouldn't pull the exacto knife towards you when you are
trying to slit the jacket of multi-conductor cable.
These little childhood adventures are good for you. Taught me more than
aimlessly wandering about town every weekend.
Not _all_ 8 year olds will be able to solder, or
will want to solder, but
some will. And there's no reason not to let them have a go if they want
to. It never did me any harm...
Heh. Depends on how you define "harm". I have a permanent scar up my left
Yep, I'm glad I got the chance to injure myself
(seriously). It also gave
me the chance to enjoy life and learn something.
-tony
Paul Braun
NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you.
nerdware(a)laidbak.com
www.laidbak.com/nerdware
4:38 p.m.
New subject: Computers for children (soldering)
On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Paul Braun wrote:
These little childhood adventures are good for you.
Taught me more than
aimlessly wandering about town every weekend.
Yeah, I'm amazed I survived some of the experiments I performed as a kid.
With the supercomputers and high-end graphics workstations we all have on
our desks now, you'd think that some *really* life-like simulations could
be written that would allow kids to make all of the same mistakes we did,
but sans scar tissue. We still need a good smellovision device to give
them a good sense of singed eyebrows, though.
-- Doug
4:52 p.m.
New subject: Computers for children (soldering)
On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Doug Yowza wrote:
Well - I am a FIRM believer - no matter what you do or say or show or any
other function you can think of - There is only ONE way that you learn
what HOT means. Everyone learns that the via the same method - you touch
it. The only thing that changes - is the IT you learn from.
BC
These little
childhood adventures are good for you. Taught me more than
aimlessly wandering about town every weekend.
Yeah, I'm amazed I survived some of the experiments I performed as a kid.
With the supercomputers and high-end graphics workstations we all have on
our desks now, you'd think that some *really* life-like simulations could
be written that would allow kids to make all of the same mistakes we did,
but sans scar tissue. We still need a good smellovision device to give
them a good sense of singed eyebrows, though.
5:10 p.m.
New subject: Computers for children (soldering)
On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Brett Crapser wrote:
Well - I am a FIRM believer - no matter what you do or
say or show or any
other function you can think of - There is only ONE way that you learn
what HOT means. Everyone learns that the via the same method - you touch
it. The only thing that changes - is the IT you learn from.
Far be it from me to argue with a FIRM believer, but here's the pathway of
HOT:
it =heat=> heat receptors =chemo-electrical impulse=> brain
I guarantee that some time in the future, an alternative pathway will be:
computer =electrical impulse=> brain
and you won't be able to tell the difference.
ObCC: I seem to recall somebody producing a biofeedback device for the
Apple ][ in the early 80's that would let you control some computerstuff
via a galvanic sensor.
-- Doug
5:49 p.m.
New subject: Computers for children (soldering)
ObCC: I seem to recall somebody producing a
biofeedback device for the
Apple ][ in the early 80's that would let you control some computerstuff
via a galvanic sensor.
Ooo... now THERE would be a cool thing to get my hands on... anyone know
anything about these or have one gathering dust?
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
15 Jan
15 Jan
4:16 a.m.
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7:46 a.m.
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6:04 a.m.
New subject: Apple Calmpute
Doug Yowza wrote:
ObCC: I seem to recall somebody producing a biofeedback device for the
Apple ][ in the early 80's that would let you control some computerstuff
via a galvanic sensor.
I think you are talking about the Calmpute from HesWare. It is advertised
as a Biofeedback Stress Reduction Program and has a picture lf Leonard Nimoy
on the cover. Basically, the unit looks like a mouse except instead of
buttons, it has two metalic plates where your fingers rest against. The
software is for teh Apple II+ and Apple //e.
5:22 a.m.
New subject: Apple Calmpute
On 15 Jan 99 at 9:04, Marvin wrote:
Doug Yowza wrote:
Who was HesWare ? I have a couple of Vic20 cartridges by them and IIRC
there were some C64 cartridges. They seemed to avoid the games and more
exploitive software in favor of things like there Vic20 Monitor program.
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
ObCC: I seem to recall somebody producing a biofeedback device for the
Apple ][ in the early 80's that would let you control some computerstuff
via a galvanic sensor.
I think you are talking about the Calmpute from HesWare. It is advertised
as a Biofeedback Stress Reduction Program and has a picture lf Leonard Nimoy
on the cover. Basically, the unit looks like a mouse except instead of
buttons, it has two metalic plates where your fingers rest against. The
software is for teh Apple II+ and Apple //e.
1:57 p.m.
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14 Jan
14 Jan
6:13 p.m.
New subject: Computers for children (soldering)
Doug Yowza wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Paul Braun wrote:
Well, in grades 6-8 I was playing with exolosives. My friend and I
were interested in rockets, but we couldn't afford the Estes kits.
So we built from scratch, starting with first principles. But of
course the starting point in rockets is also the starting point in
explosives -- good old black powder. So we branched off in both
directions. Recipes were still available in the public libraries in
those days, chemistry textbooks and government publications. I got
a couple of burns, so did my partner, we were lucky because we didn't
always follow the rules that well -- making rocket fuel out of sugar
and potassium nitrate in a saucepan on the stove can turn the stove
to shrapnel if it gets too hot, ours didn't. (We should have been
using a double boiler, but Bob's mother wouldn't let us use hers and
my mother didn't own one). Nowadays, of course, it's difficult to
get many of the books or raw materials we used back in the Sixties.
(But I nowadays know enough first principals to get or make many of
the raw materials we used to buy at the drugstore, potassium nitrate
and several of its chemical cousins being among the main things our
maternal government doesn't want us to have). Nowadays I also know
a bit more safety procedure as well.
--
Ward Griffiths <mailto:gram@cnct.com> <http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/>
WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.
These little childhood adventures are good for
you. Taught me more than
aimlessly wandering about town every weekend.
Yeah, I'm amazed I survived some of the experiments I performed as a kid.
With the supercomputers and high-end graphics workstations we all have on
our desks now, you'd think that some *really* life-like simulations could
be written that would allow kids to make all of the same mistakes we did,
but sans scar tissue. We still need a good smellovision device to give
them a good sense of singed eyebrows, though.
6:29 p.m.
New subject: Computers for children (soldering)
On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
always follow the rules that well -- making rocket
fuel out of sugar
and potassium nitrate in a saucepan on the stove can turn the stove
to shrapnel if it gets too hot, ours didn't. (We should have been
using a double boiler, but Bob's mother wouldn't let us use hers and
my mother didn't own one).
Ah - good old Caramel Candy!
Nowadays, of course, it's difficult to
get many of the books or raw materials we used back in the Sixties.
(But I nowadays know enough first principals to get or make many of
the raw materials we used to buy at the drugstore, potassium nitrate
and several of its chemical cousins being among the main things our
maternal government doesn't want us to have). Nowadays I also know
a bit more safety procedure as well.
Wellllllllllllllllll 8-) Now you are on ANOTHER hobby of mine 8-)
If you remember the way Estes does the engines - A B(A*2) C(B*2 or A*4)
Now you can buy 1/4A all the way to M (figure it out yourself). Most of
the engine today are AP (Ammonium Perclorate with resin binder) You can
also use Hybrids - Cellulose and N2O up to about a J (maybe M).
These are the legal consumer products. Experimentals got up to Q and R
size motors now.
WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that
Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.
Well - ya you still have to deal with these guys if you go above a G 8-(
Email for more info 8-)
BC
15 Jan
15 Jan
7:42 a.m.
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14 Jan
14 Jan
6:25 p.m.
New subject: Computers for children (soldering)
On or about 09:24 PM 1/14/99 -0600, Paul Braun was caught in a dark alley
speaking these words:
> I've had dozens of scars as a result of using
tools. Doesn't really worry
> me a bit. Sure it's painful at the time, but I'm still here, right, and
> although I don't like the pain, the final result is worth it.
Not to mention the "no pain, no gain" theory. At least to me, the
satisfaction of a job well done seems sweeter if I finished it despite a
wound or two. Bonus points if I didn't get any blood on the final
project... ;-)
I've burned myself several times with a soldering
iron -- teaches you the
basic
rules that A) A hot soldering iron looks exactly like a
cold one; and B)
Ditto for
solder.
Uh, I first learned that cold solder looks very different from hot solder;
'till my dad showed me that if you can tell the difference, it needs to be
redone.
Hot stuff!!! ;-)
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
=====
Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch(a)30below.com
SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers
===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: =====
for (1..15) { print "Merry Christmas\n"; }
(from perl.1 man page, version 4.)
8:16 p.m.
New subject: Computers for children (soldering)
Date sent: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:37:38 +0000 (GMT)
Send reply to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
From: ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Computers for children (soldering)
I've had dozens of scars as a result of using
tools. Doesn't really worry
me a bit. Sure it's painful at the time, but I'm still here, right, and
although I don't like the pain, the final result is worth it.
Got bit of non-meaty (that big round thing where thumb-mucsle is)
bits gounged by flywheel with weighted speed control switch on a
heavy mechanical adding thing. Got scorched by solder irons
(painful and long time for pain to go away), slid on gravelly road
when fell from bicycle, got two fingers each one once 2 seperate
incidents. Mind you, sliced not the slashing, the chop motion
when razor slipped, got a finger bone caught between two 5 pin bowling ball
when a ball decided to come out of chute and strike the ball where my finger is.
OWCH! Recently got stabbed full length of jumper pin, trying to
get stubborn jumper installed, That stupid pin slid right along
underside of that thumb nail! Throbby thumb, no discoloring but
kept me from sleeping well one night. Booo hiss and there was
blue words flying!
Only mark I can see is one very old scar (4 or 5 yr old except for
that appendix job) when I slipped and cut myself carrying that wood
hand saw (like the big hacksaw) requiring few striches.
Oh, toss in a flipped car accident too, everybody lived whew!
Call me bit bone-head for that many accidents but I learn to be
more careful over the time.
:-)
Yep, I'm glad I got the chance to injure myself
(seriously). It also gave
me the chance to enjoy life and learn something.
Seriously!? Got you straight from that one incident?
I'm not that kind of who wants to get into that kind of serious
accident by choice.
-tony
Jason D.
15 Jan
15 Jan
7:59 a.m.
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9336
days inactive
9339
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29 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
brett＠xnet.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
ckaiser＠oa.ptloma.edu -
cmcmanis＠freegate.com -
gram＠cnct.com -
jim＠calico.litterbox.com -
jpero＠cgocable.net -
kurtkilgor＠bigfoot.com -
lwalker＠mail.interlog.com -
marvin＠rain.org -
meo＠netads.com -
nerdware＠laidbak.com -
yowza＠yowza.com -
zmerch＠30below.com