11 Sep
2001
11 Sep
'01
1:22 a.m.
I take it you all heard about the two 737s (?) hitting the world trade
buildings...
one was possibly a hijacked airliner... each hit a seperate tower, I
believe...
--- David A Woyciesjes
--- C & IS Support Specialist
--- Yale University Press
--- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu
--- (203) 432-0953
--- ICQ # - 905818
11 Sep
11 Sep
2 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
Yes ... Dubya must have REALLY pissed someone off! Reports are that these were
specific attacks, and that there was also an apparently intentional crash on a
helipad near the Pentagon ... <sigh> You'd think they'd get closer than
that
...
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Woyciesjes" <DAW(a)yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 7:22 AM
Subject: OT: World Trade crash...
I take it you all heard about the two 737s (?) hitting
the world trade
buildings...
one was possibly a hijacked airliner... each hit a seperate tower, I
believe...
--- David A Woyciesjes
--- C & IS Support Specialist
--- Yale University Press
--- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu
--- (203) 432-0953
--- ICQ # - 905818
2:46 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
Yes ... Dubya must have REALLY pissed someone off!
Reports are that
these were
specific attacks, and that there was also an apparently intentional crash on a
helipad near the Pentagon ... <sigh> You'd think they'd get closer than
that
Helipad hell...a jet crashed into the building itself. The
fire is still out of control. The smoke can be seen from this
building.
Jeff
--
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.cchaven.com
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
3:35 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
comments inline
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Hellige" <jhellige(a)earthlink.net>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: World Trade crash...
<snip>
Helipad hell...a jet crashed into the building itself. The
fire is still out of control. The smoke can be seen from this
building.
The networks are issuing conflicting reports about that, but it's clear it
wasn't a helipad on a nearby building. The Pentagon is apparently severely
damaged and there's been considerable loss of life. Of course that's nothing as
compared with the WTC disaster, now that both towers have collapsed. They're
saying that over 50K people work in or immediately near those two towers. There
are apparently some gas fires/explosions associated with that as well. The NY
fire department has their hands full for sure. Morever, there were many fire
fighters in the second tower evacuating people when it collapsed.
The heart of Washington D.C. OTOH is apparently being (relatively) quitely
evacuated. I don't know how the key government agencies can function if they're
not going to work, however. They've shut down the CIA, the NSA, and other
security-related agencies. You (Jeff) can probably provide more detail, since
you're there.
I note that Dubya is on the tube. I wonder where they set him down. He was in
the air when this happened. Likewise, Colin Powell apparently turned around
from his trip to Columbia, or wherever he was going.
<snip>
4:21 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
Richard Erlacher wrote:
The networks are issuing conflicting reports about
that, but it's clear it
wasn't a helipad on a nearby building. The Pentagon is apparently severely
damaged and there's been considerable loss of life. Of course that's nothing as
compared with the WTC disaster, now that both towers have collapsed.
Doesn't the pentagon hold many many people as well?
The heart of Washington D.C. OTOH is apparently being
(relatively) quitely
evacuated. I don't know how the key government agencies can function if they're
not going to work, however. They've shut down the CIA, the NSA, and other
security-related agencies. You (Jeff) can probably provide more detail, since
you're there.
I'm sure the core parts of the agencies are working very hard right
now. They'll be in the field and in other lesser known offices. If
another plane hit the main offices of our security agencies, with our
people inside, then we would be in a lot more trouble. It's better to
have them in other places.
I note that Dubya is on the tube. I wonder where they set him down. He was in
the air when this happened. Likewise, Colin Powell apparently turned around
from his trip to Columbia, or wherever he was going.
I haven't seen him yet. I did just see Arafat. He looked shocked,
althoughm he might be a good actor too? Don't know, just speculating.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
5:17 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
As I said before, the middle-eastern political groups are not given to such acts
of vastly undirected violence. They pick their targets, though their weapons
aren't always as well directed as they'd like, and they normally kill themselves
in the process. They're not willing to commit a truly gross act such as this
because of the scale of violence it invites as retribution, though they seldom
fail to claim credit for a successful attack.
This truly smells of our homegrown militia types.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chad Fernandez" <fernande(a)internet1.net>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: World Trade crash...
they're
in
Richard Erlacher wrote:
> The networks are issuing conflicting reports about that, but it's clear it
> wasn't a helipad on a nearby building. The Pentagon is apparently severely
> damaged and there's been considerable loss of life. Of course that's
nothing as
compared with
the WTC disaster, now that both towers have collapsed.
Doesn't the pentagon hold many many people as well?
> The heart of Washington D.C. OTOH is apparently being (relatively) quitely
> evacuated. I don't know how the key government agencies can function if
> not going to work, however. They've shut
down the CIA, the NSA, and other
> security-related agencies. You (Jeff) can probably provide more detail,
since
you're
there.
I'm sure the core parts of the agencies are working very hard right
now. They'll be in the field and in other lesser known offices. If
another plane hit the main offices of our security agencies, with our
people inside, then we would be in a lot more trouble. It's better to
have them in other places.
>
> I note that Dubya is on the tube. I wonder where they set him down. He was
the air when
this happened. Likewise, Colin Powell apparently turned around
from his trip to Columbia, or wherever he was going.
I haven't seen him yet. I did just see Arafat. He looked shocked,
althoughm he might be a good actor too? Don't know, just speculating.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
3:06 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
A coworker here pointed out that the crash occurred exactly three months and
one hour after the execution of Timothy McVeigh on June 11th at 7:00am CDT.
However, that "one hour" thing sort of throws the theory off, unless the
terrorists were just really bad at math.
And the Pentagon crash was still close enough to collapse a few walls, from
what I heard.
And then there's the odd fact that a plane crashed eighty miles west of
Philadelphia... that's just strange, unless it was headed for somewhere
else.
Reports are saying that military jets are currently authorized to shoot down
any plane in U.S. airspace that doesn't immediately identify itself.
GSL, apologizing for being OT but thinking this situation warrants the
exception
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: World Trade crash...
Yes ... Dubya must have REALLY pissed someone off!
Reports are that these
were
specific attacks, and that there was also an
apparently intentional crash
on a
helipad near the Pentagon ... <sigh> You'd
think they'd get closer than
that
...
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Woyciesjes" <DAW(a)yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 7:22 AM
Subject: OT: World Trade crash...
I take it you all heard about the two 737s (?)
hitting the world trade
buildings...
one was possibly a hijacked airliner... each hit a seperate tower, I
believe...
--- David A Woyciesjes
--- C & IS Support Specialist
--- Yale University Press
--- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu
--- (203) 432-0953
--- ICQ # - 905818
2:57 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
My most heartfelt condolences to all New Yorkers and Americans
in general. I am hoping that all the injured recover and those
who are buried can be rescued.
I am holding tight for what comes next in terms of
economic wreckage and political fallout globally.
And I am hoping that whatever retaliation is taken targets only
those that are guilty, and not innocent bystanders. Most people
under Taleban rule are also victims.
carlos.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo(a)nospammers.ieee.org
5:09 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote:
And I am hoping that whatever retaliation is taken
targets only those
that are guilty, and not innocent bystanders. Most people under
Taleban rule are also victims.
I was hoping I wouldn't have anything more to say but I must respond to
this.
Don't you think it is not only extremely premature but also highly
irresponsible to assume this was an attack carried out by any particular
group?
Remember Oklahoma City?
I don't think this incident calls for ANY retaliation. I think it DOES
call for America to take a moment to reflect on why any particular group
would want to inflict such horror on our nation. People just don't get up
one day and say "Gee, I think I'll completely raze the World Trade Center
buildings...what fun that would be!"
This is a reckoning.
Enough is enough already!
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
10 Sep
10 Sep
8:18 p.m.
New subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash...
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote:
I think you might be right. I jumped to conclusions. It is
just that the organization of this clearly cost millions of
dollars, and there aren't those many terrorist organizations
around with such deep pockets.
And I am hoping that whatever retaliation is
taken targets only those
that are guilty, and not innocent bystanders. Most people under
Taleban rule are also victims.
Don't you think it is not only extremely premature but also highly
irresponsible to assume this was an attack carried out by any particular
group?
Remember Oklahoma City? I don't think this incident calls for ANY
retaliation. I think it DOES
call for America to take a moment to reflect on why any particular group
would want to inflict such horror on our nation. People just don't get
up
one day and say "Gee, I think I'll completely raze the World Trade Center
buildings...what fun that would be!"
The way I see it, it just shows that "security" and modern life
as we know it are incompatible. We can't have both, especially
not through military/big brother solutions. A whole different
approach is required to deal with conflicts globally, one in which
none of the parties is bitter enough to try to get revenge.
Remember the WWI armistice and the inhumane conditions it imposed
on the losing side, thus creating the conditions for WWII.
carlos.
11 Sep
11 Sep
4:19 p.m.
New subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash...
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 cmurillo(a)multi.net.co wrote:
Why? There were likely no more than five or six participants in each of
the four planes. Say, twenty-five people max. Allow a few more at each
of the sirport terminals for whatever function. Fifty total? An
additional core of some indeterminate number who did the planning for
this exercise. Read the flight schedules and aircraft types from
websites on the 'net. Figure which day of the week would likely have
the lightest passenger loads (fewer people to resist). Then Make it
happen - as they did. Millions? More likely a hundres thousand or so.
- don
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote:
I think you might be right. I jumped to conclusions. It is
just that the organization of this clearly cost millions of
dollars, and there aren't those many terrorist organizations
around with such deep pockets. And I am hoping that whatever retaliation is
taken targets only those
that are guilty, and not innocent bystanders. Most people under
Taleban rule are also victims.
Don't you think it is not only extremely premature but also highly
irresponsible to assume this was an attack carried out by any particular
group?
Remember Oklahoma City? I don't
think this incident calls for ANY retaliation. I think it DOES
call for America to take a moment to reflect on why any particular group
would want to inflict such horror on our nation. People just don't get
up
one day and say "Gee, I think I'll completely raze the World Trade Center
buildings...what fun that would be!"
The way I see it, it just shows that "security" and modern life
as we know it are incompatible. We can't have both, especially
not through military/big brother solutions. A whole different
approach is required to deal with conflicts globally, one in which
none of the parties is bitter enough to try to get revenge.
Remember the WWI armistice and the inhumane conditions it imposed
on the losing side, thus creating the conditions for WWII.
carlos.
5:19 p.m.
New subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash...
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Chuck McManis wrote:
At 09:19 PM 9/11/01 -0700, Don wrote:
Don't agree. Because it was a lean operation is exactly why it
succeeded so well. Fewer folk knew, so fewer folk could slip up and
accidentally blow the plan. Certainly, they needed at least four people
who could fly a 757/767 - at least well enough to find NYC and fly it
into one of the Bobsy Twins. Forged passports? Get 'em in Tijuana.
How much training does it take to learn to use a box knife?
No, sorry, lean, effective, and cheap!
- don
happen - as they did. Millions? More likely a
hundres thousand or so.
Don, you forget forged passports, training, installing and coordinating
agents etc. This is definitely a big operation. 
6:08 p.m.
New subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash...
Don wrote:
[snip]
No, sorry, lean, effective, and cheap!
Lean and effective, yes.
Cheap? The hourly rate for 767 CPT time can run into the thousands,
and before you could set foot in one you'd have to be a modestly
accomplished turbine pilot -- otherwise the guys running the thing
would bounce you out -- or have access to your own (you could
probably train someone to fly the mission in maybe three hours
if you had unrestricted access to the machine and didn't mind
the risk of minor technical problems bringing the plane out of
the sky somewhere other than on the target).
Even with GPS leading you by the nose you'd still have to have
enough training to get the thing from the land of 29.92 to sea level
without overspeeding the pig, and both of the WTC strikes looked
like competent hand-flying, both on tape and to buddies on the
ground.
Not millions, but not the ANFO leagues, either -- and given the
strong sense of self-preservation shown by our home-grown terrorists,
probably _not_ domestic in origin.
--
Chris Kennedy
chris(a)mainecoon.com
http://www.mainecoon.com
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
7:35 p.m.
New subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash...
Chris Kennedy wrote:
Even with GPS leading you by the nose you'd still have to have
enough training to get the thing from the land of 29.92 to sea level
without overspeeding the pig, and both of the WTC strikes looked
like competent hand-flying, both on tape and to buddies on the
ground.
I was wondering about the GPS overcoming any lack of Nav skills
(reception in cockpit, etc).
I know nothing about flying planes, other than flight sim, but the thing
that struck me was that both planes were turning a circle into the
towers (one wing higher than other) and I would consider that much
harder than follow the straight line. How hard would hitting the side of
the Pentagon be? (45 degree descent apparently).
--
Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861
email: terryc(a)woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au
Wombat Outdoor Adventures <Bicycles, Books, Computers, GIS>
"People without trees are like fish without clean water"
12 Sep
12 Sep
3:20 a.m.
New subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash...
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Terry Collins wrote:
both planes were turning a circle into the towers (one wing higher
than other) and I would consider that much harder than follow the
straight line.
They were most likely flying the planes by hand. A perfectly straight
line can indeed be quite difficult to fly; corrections need to be made.
In the second WTC crash, for instance, you see the plane banking left at
the last minute and notice later that, while it dealt a most damaging
blow, it was a little right of center. The pilot was trying to make a
correction.
How hard would hitting the side of the Pentagon be?
(45 degree descent
apparently).
Harder than you think, even assuming a total lack of target defense
capabilities. Airplanes can't or won't always go exactly where you point
them. In a single-engine prop plane, for instance, gyroscopic precession
of the prop gives the plane an affinity for turning left. Other kinds of
planes have other issues. Vertical movement has complications resulting
from changing airspeed. If you put the nose of a plane
into even a slight
dive, airspeed will increase *quickly*. You've got to
arrange some way of
decreasing airspeed (throttling down the engines, extending the flaps,
etc.), or else the plane will soon begin to break apart. A 45-degree
angle seems horribly steep.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
6:53 a.m.
New subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash...
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote:
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Terry Collins wrote:
I think it is more a matter of the aircraft wanting to roll left
(counterclockwise) in response to the propeller pushing air in a
clockwise direction.
- don
both planes were turning a circle into the towers (one wing higher
than other) and I would consider that much harder than follow the
straight line.
They were most likely flying the planes by hand. A perfectly straight
line can indeed be quite difficult to fly; corrections need to be made.
In the second WTC crash, for instance, you see the plane banking left at
the last minute and notice later that, while it dealt a most damaging
blow, it was a little right of center. The pilot was trying to make a
correction.
How hard would hitting the side of the Pentagon
be? (45 degree descent
apparently).
Harder than you think, even assuming a total lack of target defense
capabilities. Airplanes can't or won't always go exactly where you point
them. In a single-engine prop plane, for instance, gyroscopic precession
of the prop gives the plane an affinity for turning left. Other kinds of planes have other issues. Vertical movement has
complications resulting
from changing airspeed. If you put the nose of a plane into even a slight
dive, airspeed will increase *quickly*. You've got to arrange some way of
decreasing airspeed (throttling down the engines, extending the flaps,
etc.), or else the plane will soon begin to break apart. A 45-degree
angle seems horribly steep.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
7:13 a.m.
New subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash...
Going in while banking will give the impact a damaging imprint
across many floors, This will increase the damage and enhance
the chance that all kinetic energy will be deposited in the building.
(A level flight might partly shoot thru). So the banking action of
both planes may have been intentional!
Sipke de Wal
------------------------------------------------------------
http://xgistor.ath.cx
------------------------------------------------------------
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Terry Collins wrote:
both planes were turning a circle into the towers (one wing higher
than other) and I would consider that much harder than follow the
straight line.
They were most likely flying the planes by hand. A perfectly straight
line can indeed be quite difficult to fly; corrections need to be made.
In the second WTC crash, for instance, you see the plane banking left at
the last minute and notice later that, while it dealt a most damaging
blow, it was a little right of center. The pilot was trying to make a
correction.
4:37 a.m.
New subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash...
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Terry Collins wrote:
I know nothing about flying planes, other than flight
sim, but the
thing that struck me was that both planes were turning a circle into
the towers (one wing higher than other) and I would consider that much
harder than follow the straight line. How hard would hitting the side
of the Pentagon be? (45 degree descent apparently).
Maybe they knew full well that slamming into the building at an angle
would cause more damaged across more floors...
The people flying those planes knew what they were doing.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
1:40 a.m.
New subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash...
see below, plz.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck McManis" <cmcmanis(a)mcmanis.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash...
At 09:19 PM 9/11/01 -0700, Don wrote:
Forged passports aren't needed for domestic flights, which is what these were.
Based on Don's estimate of a couple of dozen people, a couple of dozen thousands
are all that's needed, to get the people there and buy them their tickets. It's
unlikely that you'd find many Americans, no matter how fanatic, that would get
on a plane with the intention of crashing the thing into something, though, and
forget the training. OTOH, the only bunch that has, in the past, done anything
so extreme without a claim of credit would be the U.S.-grown types.
It doesn't have to be a big operation, though, and, based on the assessment that
the one plane that crashed in Pennsylvania was a hijacking gone sour, the
traning and planning wasn't that perfect, either.
happen - as they did. Millions? More likely a
hundres thousand or so.
Don, you forget forged passports, training, installing and coordinating
agents etc. This is definitely a big operation.
2:46 a.m.
New subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash...
"Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Chuck McManis wrote:
Skipping take off skills (it is already in the air when you take over)
and landing skills (it isn't going down in the normal way) how much
training would someone with light aircraft skills need?
--
Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861
email: terryc(a)woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au
Wombat Outdoor Adventures <Bicycles, Books, Computers, GIS>
"People without trees are like fish without clean water"
Don, you forget [...] training
I bet this was the biggest cost; you just don't learn how to fly a big
commercial jet overnight. 
4:18 a.m.
New subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash...
At 12:46 AM 9/13/01 +1000, Terry wrote:
Skipping take off skills (it is already in the air when
you take over)
and landing skills (it isn't going down in the normal way) how much
training would someone with light aircraft skills need?
Ok, for the morbidly fascinated folks of the world, MS FlightSimulator
comes with 737 aircraft models, (there are 757 and 767 models on the web)
it also comes with a manhattan database replete with trade towers. So try
it yourself. Flying a large jet at high speed, the thing takes a mile and a
half to make a "tight" turn. The WTC is only just wider than the aircraft.
So my thoughts are
to hit "any" building - pretty straightforward for someone
who knows the basics of how an airplane flys
to hit a "specific" building from a specific angle
That is darn difficult
--Chuck
7:52 a.m.
New subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash...
They knew all about it as they had killed the beacon/transponder and likely
the comm systems (maybe even the recording system to the black boxes if
that's possible from the cockpit) so it doubt it was any real problem for
the temporary crew that had already maced and stabbed their way into the
driver's seat. I've been granted a few minutes time in the copilot seat of a
B-52G a few years ago - it's like moving a house with the stick. Of course
these are different controls from that of a commercial airliner. They had
plenty of time to make a turn and came in straight so there's maybe even the
possibility of someone bailing with a parachute minutes before but to
pinpoint the building I'm sure they were in full control to the last second.
besides if it's the group they think it is they feel it's an honor to die in
the completion of their mission.
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
-> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chuck McManis
-> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:19 AM
-> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
-> Subject: Re: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash...
->
->
-> At 12:46 AM 9/13/01 +1000, Terry wrote:
-> >Skipping take off skills (it is already in the air when you take over)
-> >and landing skills (it isn't going down in the normal way) how much
-> >training would someone with light aircraft skills need?
->
-> Ok, for the morbidly fascinated folks of the world, MS FlightSimulator
-> comes with 737 aircraft models, (there are 757 and 767 models on
-> the web)
-> it also comes with a manhattan database replete with trade
-> towers. So try
-> it yourself. Flying a large jet at high speed, the thing takes a
-> mile and a
-> half to make a "tight" turn. The WTC is only just wider than the
-> aircraft.
->
-> So my thoughts are
-> to hit "any" building - pretty straightforward for someone
-> who knows the basics of how an airplane flys
-> to hit a "specific" building from a specific angle
-> That is darn difficult
->
-> --Chuck
->
->
6:13 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
Don, you forget [...] training
I bet this was the biggest cost; you just don't learn how to fly a big
commercial jet overnight. from their routine transaction methods.
7:29 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
Talk to airline pilots. There is no way in hell that anyone could "practice
with it" and achieve the accuracy required to hit a small target like the
WTC (yes, small - those planes were going several hundreds of
miles-per-hour at the time), with the skill that was displayed.
Plane #2 was in a gradual descending turn when it impacted the building.
Those guys could fly those planes reasonably well.
And NAVIGATE!
Videotapes do not give you the proper skills to fly an aircraft like an
757/767. Period.
- Matt
Matthew Sell
Programmer
On Time Support, Inc.
www.ontimesupport.com
(281) 296-6066
Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST!
http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler
Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er...
Skipping take off skills (it is already in the air
when you take over)
and landing skills (it isn't going down in the normal way) how much
training would someone with light aircraft skills need?
Apparently a video tape is adequate, given the cars found with them left
behind. Once the hijacker had control of the plane they had some time to
practice with it before the target too.
7:49 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Mike Ford wrote:
I am wondering about the planning of the attack, and
the failure of
any group to claim responsibility. I don't think it went according to
plan, with the failure of just one of the 4 attacks, the complete
destruction of both towers, and finally I think the American response
was entirely misjudged. In the first part I am guessing they were
"lucky", entering the country, making it through security and boarding
flights very lightly populated, and getting the people on board to
cooperate. Since hitting the towers as low as possible seems the most
effective, that stage was poor. The final result wasn't terror, but
resolve, that I think left those responsible in fear of admiting their
acts.
First of all, you're assuming this was the act of foreign terrorists.
Unless you know something law enforcement doesn't, nothing has been
established yet. Don't rely on news reports to be your main source of
"facts" either.
Second, you're assuming these guys intended for the buildings to collapse.
While I think it's plausible that they very well could have understood and
knew in advance the ramifications of ramming a building with a jetliner, I
think the collapse of the buildings was an unforseen side-effect that no
doubt thrilled the perpetrators.
Third, I doubt the perpetrators ever thought that this would crush the
resolve of the U.S. The U.S. has NEVER capitulated. Even when we did
capitulate (Vietnam) it was not called a capitulation and was spun into
something entirely different.
<SPECULATION>
What are the three strongest aspects of the United States?
1) Our economy
2) Our military
3) Our leadership
They got one and two, and probably were headed for three when the plane
went down. This was sending a message. We've yet to determine who was
sending it.
We've yet to know if this is even over yet.
</SPECULATION>
I think it's important to remember not to jump to conclusions without
facts.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
10:20 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote:
<SPECULATION>
What are the three strongest aspects of the United States?
1) Our economy
Ok... but we don't know how much this fight will affect the economy.
2) Our military
We may have the weapons -- but if the economic impact is too great
the funding may drop out quickly. I was hoping for a more
effective speach last night to rally us to stand behind our
free and open society and to keep us fighting to increase liberty
in the world rather than reduce it.
I'd like to see the evidence brought to a court and a trial of the
guilty party before we rush off to extract retribution. This is
a strength of the system and country. Lockerbee took a long time
to get resolved -- the leader of my college alumni service went
down on that plane and the story was covered heavily in the alumni
magazine.
3) Our leadership
Maybe, but without the resolve of the public that doesn't seem too
strong. Remember the '60's and '70's. When the casualty count
goes up and the public can't see the reason for the fight this one
drops in effectiveness.
I think it's important to remember not to jump to
conclusions without
facts.
Very true. And spin from both sides is not facts.
Bill
--
d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now!
bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org
3:50 a.m.
New subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash...
I bet this was the biggest cost; you just don't
learn how to fly a big
commercial jet overnight.
In this case though not as big an expense as it normally is
since the hijacker's obviously knew it was a one-way trip so they
didn't have to worry about learning to land and such. Granted, if
you're flying by the book it gets quite involved but to take over a
plane already in the air and keep it in the air wouldn't be that
hard. The navigation would've been the hard part, unless of course
the real aircrew was kept in the seats up until very near the end.
Jeff
--
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.cchaven.com
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
6:44 a.m.
New subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash...
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Chuck McManis wrote:
Certainly true, but you also need not be a fully qualified commercial
jet pilot to crash it into a tall building either.
- don
Don, you forget [...] training
I bet this was the biggest cost; you just don't learn how to fly a big
commercial jet overnight.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
7:01 a.m.
New subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash...
I've just heard on the dutch new that on average
it will cost about $1000 an hour to rent a proper
professional flightsimulator for an hour, including
a trainer. And of course there will be countries
to offer the facility for free as well!
Pre prepare with MS Flightsim and round it off
with 1 or 2 hours in the real sim. 5 kamipilots
$2000,- each makes $10,000-. Also remember
you don't have to pay them. Allah will take care of
that.
Sipke de Wal
------------------------------------------------
http://xgistor.ath.cx
------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Maslin <donm(a)cts.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash...
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Chuck McManis wrote:
Certainly true, but you also need not be a fully qualified commercial
jet pilot to crash it into a tall building either.
- don
Don, you forget [...] training
I bet this was the biggest cost; you just don't learn how to fly a big
commercial jet overnight.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com 
7:49 a.m.
New subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash...
At 11:44 AM 9/12/2001 -0700, you wrote:
Certainly true, but you also need not be a fully
qualified commercial
jet pilot to crash it into a tall building either.
- don
No, but you might to navigate it several hundred miles in a
straight line (look at the radar tracking reports) to a target and then
crash it into a particular tall building at a good height.
These guys were well trained and knew what they were doing.
GZ
11 Sep
11 Sep
3:46 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
Greg Lindsey wrote:
And the Pentagon crash was still close enough to
collapse a few walls, from
what I heard.
The plane reached the inner ring/circle or whatever that is called.
It's pretty bad from what ABC is saying.
And then there's the odd fact that a plane crashed eighty miles west of
Philadelphia... that's just strange, unless it was headed for somewhere
else.
Maybe if it was hijackled things didn't go very smoothly for the
hijackers, maybe a passenger was in some position to do something.
Reports are saying that military jets are currently authorized to shoot down
any plane in U.S. airspace that doesn't immediately identify itself.
Makes sence.
GSL, apologizing for being OT but thinking this situation warrants the
exception
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
8:40 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
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12:38 p.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
Well, I definitely put my foot in it that time, but what I believed at the time
was that the second event, initially reported as a plane crash into a helipad on
another building, was unrelated to the WTC event(s), as it had been so sketchily
reported.
I didn't vote for Dubya either, nor did a majority of the voters in the U.S,
yet, presumably in part by the corrupt influence of his brother and associated
henchment, and partly by quirk of circumstance, he's the chief exec anyway.
Keep in mind that his daddy, George I, did things that were questionable as
well, e.g. starting the "Desert Shield" operation concurrently with the start
of
his son Neil's trial for financial fraud here in Colorado, in which he
purportedly bilked savers and, eventually, the U.S. government out of
approximately 2.2 Billion dollars.
Disagreeing with a politician, wherever you are, is not a declaration of wishing
him harm. I don't wish the senseless twit harm either, though I frequently wish
him laryngitis. Mostly I wish him some basic education, which, unfortunately,
he didn't get the first time he had a chance, and probably won't get this time
either.
His daddy seems to have taught him well the concept of surrounding himself with
people of ethics more questionable than even his own. He nominated and had
confirmed a Secretary of the Interior, formerly the unpopular state treasurer of
Colorado, who was several times accused, but, owing to her wily nature, never
convicted, of various corrupt acts including things such as embezzlement and
misapropriation of funds, and the like.
His only saving grace is that he's probably not substantially more addleheaded
than his opponent in the controversial election he won. Neither of them seemed
able to speak the truth; one because he couldn't speak, the other because he
didn't recognize the truth.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: World Trade crash...
>
> Yes ... Dubya must have REALLY pissed someone off! Reports are that these
were
> specific attacks, and that there was also an
apparently intentional crash on
a
> helipad near the Pentagon ... <sigh>
You'd think they'd get closer than
that
...
I don't find that last comment remotely funny.
FWIW, there are some aspects of the US President's current policies that I
disagree with. 'DIsagree' in the sense that if I was a US citizen I would
have voted against him in the elections. Not that I wish him (or anyone
else) any harm.
I disagree infinitely more with terrorist action though. I don't believe
that killing anyone, particularly not 'innocent bystanders' is ever going
to solve anything.
My thoughts are with those who may have lost family, friends or loved
ones in these terrible incidents.
:-(
-tony
3:15 p.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
Dick,
You talk about a lack of ethics with Bush, but Clinton did an
unbelieveable lowering of standards for the President of the USA. Also,
"majority" is a funny type of definition. Who else took the Presidency
without a "majority" vote in the not too distant past? (I don't need a
response to the questions!!!) How about taking this whole discussion
someplace other than this list! While somewhat understandable, this
whole "World Trade Crash discussion is Off Topic for THIS list!!!
Richard Erlacher wrote:
Well, I definitely put my foot in it that time, but what I believed at the time
was that the second event, initially reported as a plane crash into a helipad on
another building, was unrelated to the WTC event(s), as it had been so sketchily
reported.
I didn't vote for Dubya either, nor did a majority of the voters in the U.S,
yet, presumably in part by the corrupt influence of his brother and associated
henchment, and partly by quirk of circumstance, he's the chief exec anyway.
Keep in mind that his daddy, George I, did things that were questionable as
well, e.g. starting the "Desert Shield" operation concurrently with the start
of
his son Neil's trial for financial fraud here in Colorado, in which he
purportedly bilked savers and, eventually, the U.S. government out of
approximately 2.2 Billion dollars.
Disagreeing with a politician, wherever you are, is not a declaration of wishing
him harm. I don't wish the senseless twit harm either, though I frequently wish
him laryngitis. Mostly I wish him some basic education, which, unfortunately,
he didn't get the first time he had a chance, and probably won't get this time
either.
His daddy seems to have taught him well the concept of surrounding himself with
people of ethics more questionable than even his own. He nominated and had
confirmed a Secretary of the Interior, formerly the unpopular state treasurer of
Colorado, who was several times accused, but, owing to her wily nature, never
convicted, of various corrupt acts including things such as embezzlement and
misapropriation of funds, and the like.
His only saving grace is that he's probably not substantially more addleheaded
than his opponent in the controversial election he won. Neither of them seemed
able to speak the truth; one because he couldn't speak, the other because he
didn't recognize the truth.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: World Trade crash...
>
> Yes ... Dubya must have REALLY pissed someone off! Reports are that these
were
> specific attacks, and that there was also an
apparently intentional crash on
a
> helipad near the Pentagon ... <sigh>
You'd think they'd get closer than
that
> > ...
>
> I don't find that last comment remotely funny.
>
> FWIW, there are some aspects of the US President's current policies that I
> disagree with. 'DIsagree' in the sense that if I was a US citizen I would
> have voted against him in the elections. Not that I wish him (or anyone
> else) any harm.
>
> I disagree infinitely more with terrorist action though. I don't believe
> that killing anyone, particularly not 'innocent bystanders' is ever going
> to solve anything.
>
> My thoughts are with those who may have lost family, friends or loved
> ones in these terrible incidents.
>
> :-(
>
> -tony
>
>
6:36 p.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
Dick it's called the electoral college.... the popular vote doesn't
directly decide the presidency. It has happened once before. Just
because his brother is the governor of Florida doesn't mean his brother
was doing anything underhanded.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Richard Erlacher wrote:
I didn't vote for Dubya either, nor did a majority
of the voters in the U.S,
yet, presumably in part by the corrupt influence of his brother and associated
henchment, and partly by quirk of circumstance, he's the chief exec anyway.
Keep in mind that his daddy, George I, did things that were questionable as
well, e.g. starting the "Desert Shield" operation concurrently with the start
of
his son Neil's trial for financial fraud here in Colorado, in which he
purportedly bilked savers and, eventually, the U.S. government out of
approximately 2.2 Billion dollars.
12 Sep
12 Sep
2 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
I don't know how it was when you went to high school, but when I went, we all
had a required course in "civics" which had nothing to do with HONDA engines,
but, rather, dealt with the practices and structures of our own governments.
Being a naturalized citizen, I had to learn this stuff twice, since it was also
on the exams for citizenship.
It's true that "Just because his brother is the governor of Florida doesn't
mean
his brother was doing anything underhanded." However, the fact that he's a Bush
suggests that he could hardly have been doing anything else. It's in their DNA,
doncha know.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chad Fernandez" <fernande(a)internet1.net>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: World Trade crash...
Dick it's called the electoral college.... the
popular vote doesn't
directly decide the presidency. It has happened once before. Just
because his brother is the governor of Florida doesn't mean his brother
was doing anything underhanded.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Richard Erlacher wrote:
> I didn't vote for Dubya either, nor did a majority of the voters in the U.S,
> yet, presumably in part by the corrupt influence of his brother and
associated
> henchment, and partly by quirk of circumstance,
he's the chief exec anyway.
> Keep in mind that his daddy, George I, did things that were questionable as
> well, e.g. starting the "Desert Shield" operation concurrently with the
start of
his son
Neil's trial for financial fraud here in Colorado, in which he
purportedly bilked savers and, eventually, the U.S. government out of
approximately 2.2 Billion dollars.
13 Sep
13 Sep
5:40 p.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
Richard Erlacher wrote:
I don't know how it was when you went to high school, but when I went, we all
had a required course in "civics" which had nothing to do with HONDA engines,
but, rather, dealt with the practices and structures of our own governments.
Being a naturalized citizen, I had to learn this stuff twice, since it was also
on the exams for citizenship.
So what's your point? If you've learned it twice, then you should know
that the popular vote doesn't elect the president.
It's true that "Just because his brother is the governor of Florida doesn't
mean
his brother was doing anything underhanded." However, the fact that he's a
Bush
suggests that he could hardly have been doing anything else. It's in their DNA,
doncha know.
I think you just don't anybody.
Where are you from, originally, if you've been naturalized?
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
11 Sep
11 Sep
2:39 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
AND ... in addition to the destruction of the two towers of the WTC in New York,
and the one wing of the Pentagon, there was a car bomb set off outside the State
Department bldg.
What really scares me is that no matter what knee-jerk comes out of the
Washington hierarchy, it will most surely be wrong. The intelligence community
was entirely in the dark, AND there was a claim of responsibility form the
"Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine" on the radio somewhere in the
middle-east. That's possibly a red-herring and really doesn't mean anything.
Now the entire country is grounded ... which is pretty much what the terrorists
wanted ...
Of course there will have to be some sort of token retribution, but against
whom? If it's against the Islamic community throughout the world, it will
benefit the Israelis. No matter what they do, it can't be anything but wrong.
Forget the notion of our rocket-scientist intelligence community really finding
out who did what.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Woyciesjes" <DAW(a)yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 7:22 AM
Subject: OT: World Trade crash...
I take it you all heard about the two 737s (?) hitting
the world trade
buildings...
one was possibly a hijacked airliner... each hit a seperate tower, I
believe...
--- David A Woyciesjes
--- C & IS Support Specialist
--- Yale University Press
--- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu
--- (203) 432-0953
--- ICQ # - 905818
3:12 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
AND ... in addition to the destruction of the two
towers of the WTC
in New York,
and the one wing of the Pentagon, there was a car bomb set off
outside the State
Department bldg.
The car bomb has been shown to be false. A large jet did
plow into the Pentagon and they are still fighting the fires but
there was no car bomb outside the State Dept.
--
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.cchaven.com
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
3:26 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
Richard Erlacher wrote:
AND ... in addition to the destruction of the two towers of the WTC in New York,
and the one wing of the Pentagon, there was a car bomb set off outside the State
Department bldg.
ABC is aying that the State dept car bomb is false.
What really scares me is that no matter what knee-jerk comes out of the
Washington hierarchy, it will most surely be wrong. The intelligence community
was entirely in the dark, AND there was a claim of responsibility form the
"Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine" on the radio somewhere in the
middle-east. That's possibly a red-herring and really doesn't mean anything.
Lots of people usually claim that they did , the most recent terroist
act. Thats nothing new.
Now the entire country is grounded ... which is pretty much what the terrorists
wanted ...
Of course there will have to be some sort of token retribution, but against
whom?
Just sit tight Dick, they'll figure it out.
If it's against the Islamic community throughout
the world, it will
benefit the Israelis.
Wow, just watching a streat level reply of the towers collapsing.
People running, lots of thick dust.
Anyway, what do the Israelis have to do with it? I don't think anybody
is looking at gaining something from this, besides the terroists.
Chad
4:10 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
The terrorists that pulled this off are clearly dead, along with the innocent
passengers aboard the hijacked airplanes. It's of no benefit to them at all.
The political forces behind them, however, are going to benefit. As with all
politics, it's entirely corrupt.
That Saudi millionaire, bin Laudin, or whatever his name is, claimed something
BIG was coming, but I'd more easily believe a bunch of the McVeigh-style
rednecks would do this sort of thing.
Of course, the WTC has been the target of middle-eastern terrorism before ...
I think it would be pretty difficult for a middle eastern organization to find
personnel to pull off four concurrent hijackings in the U.S. as easily as the
local rednecks could do it. What's more, the middle-eastern terrorists don't
normally do things on this scale, those embassy bombings being an exception
rather than the rule. This invites a level of retaliation that they (the
middle-eastern groups) are unwilling to tolerate. Those redneck groups don't
care if they kill a billion people.
The suicidal nature of this combination of acts points to the middle-easterners,
yet the pointless nature points at the rednecks. Who knows?
more below ...
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chad Fernandez" <fernande(a)internet1.net>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: World Trade crash...
It just emphasises the level of chaos, doesn't it?
As I said before, there's reason to doubt the middle-easterners are behind
this.
It's a real reckless act like the Oklahoma City bombing, and it's targeted at
"the system" rather than "the government." That just adds to the
confusion.
What's sad is that the government will have to take retribution on someone, even
if it's the wrong someone, and most folks won't even care that it's the wrong
someone.
Richard Erlacher wrote:
>
> AND ... in addition to the destruction of the two towers of the WTC in New
York,
> and the one wing of the Pentagon, there was a car
bomb set off outside the
State
Department
bldg.
ABC is aying that the State dept car bomb is false.
>
> What really scares me is that no matter what knee-jerk comes out of the
> Washington hierarchy, it will most surely be wrong. The intelligence
community
> was entirely in the dark, AND there was a claim
of responsibility form the
> "Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine" on the radio somewhere in
the
> middle-east. That's possibly a red-herring
and really doesn't mean
anything.
Lots of people usually claim that they did , the most recent terroist
act. Thats nothing new.
>
> Now the entire country is grounded ... which is pretty much what the
terrorists
wanted ...
Of course there will have to be some sort of token retribution, but against
whom?
Just sit tight Dick, they'll figure it out.
If it's against the Islamic community
throughout the world, it will
benefit the Israelis.
Wow, just watching a streat level reply of the towers collapsing.
People running, lots of thick dust.
Anyway, what do the Israelis have to do with it? I don't think anybody
is looking at gaining something from this, besides the terroists.
5 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
Richard Erlacher wrote:
The terrorists that pulled this off are clearly dead, along with the innocent
passengers aboard the hijacked airplanes. It's of no benefit to them at all.
The political forces behind them, however, are going to benefit. As with all
politics, it's entirely corrupt.
Well, when I say "they" I mean they're cause/organization, etc.
Although, they may believe that they are doing themselves good too, such
as the Japanese kamikaze pilots, or some middle eastern extremists.
That Saudi millionaire, bin Laudin, or whatever his name is, claimed something
BIG was coming, but I'd more easily believe a bunch of the McVeigh-style
rednecks would do this sort of thing.
Of course, the WTC has been the target of middle-eastern terrorism before ...
I think it would be pretty difficult for a middle eastern organization to find
personnel to pull off four concurrent hijackings in the U.S. as easily as the
local rednecks could do it. What's more, the middle-eastern terrorists don't
normally do things on this scale, those embassy bombings being an exception
rather than the rule. This invites a level of retaliation that they (the
middle-eastern groups) are unwilling to tolerate. Those redneck groups don't
care if they kill a billion people.
The suicidal nature of this combination of acts points to the middle-easterners,
yet the pointless nature points at the rednecks. Who knows?
It certainly is confusing. I question a bunch of Mcviegh types too, I
mean, I don't think we normally get a big concentration of McViegh
types..... you'd have to be really crazy, not just a follower of a
crazy.
I think I understand and agree with your assessment of middle eastern
terrorists too. They tend not to do things this big.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
5:40 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
Though it's hard to see how any "good" could come from an act such as this,
perhaps it will inspire people to stop harboring/aiding/comforting criminals,
and stop favoring the "minor" offender over the strict adherence to law. Our
homegrown militants rely heavily on the distaste some folks have for law and
order. This type of situation is the fruit of such an attitude. The guys in
D.C. are now referring to the people responsible for this act as enemies of the
nation. They're adopting rhetoric of wartime. It's the blind-eyed inattention
to the routine commission of minor offenses that allows these enemies of the
nation to move about freely among us.
At present, the Palestinians have denied responsibility, as have the Afgahns.
The Talaban have denied that bin Laudin is involved, though that's still
possible. I doubt, however, that either the Palestinians or the Afghans would
tolerate such an act from anyone over whom they have any influence at all, not
wishing to risk incurring the wrath of an injured U.S. Middle-easterners are
long familiar with the political realities of terrorism, and it's not likely
that they would long hide someone to whom or to whose organization such an act
could ultimately be attributed. The only ones unsophisitcated enough and
violent enough to be likely to do this are those home-grown cowboys like
McVeigh.
Sadly, the only way in which such acts can be anticipated and prevented in the
future is for us to give up some of the privacy we cherish. Technology and law
protect those who enjoy this privacy. If we insist on giving aid and comfort to
minor criminals by failing to report them each and every time they violate our
laws, and if we insist on retaining our privacy, we'll have to learn to tolerate
this sort of event. The choice is between our own rights and those of the
"minor" criminals. People wouldn't attempt to hide among the populace if
they
knew that the populace would phone the authorities to report their every action.
There's a fine line between complacency and complicity.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chad Fernandez" <fernande(a)internet1.net>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: World Trade crash...
something
Richard Erlacher wrote:
>
> The terrorists that pulled this off are clearly dead, along with the
innocent
> passengers aboard the hijacked airplanes.
It's of no benefit to them at
all.
> The political forces behind them, however, are
going to benefit. As with
all
politics,
it's entirely corrupt.
Well, when I say "they" I mean they're cause/organization, etc.
Although, they may believe that they are doing themselves good too, such
as the Japanese kamikaze pilots, or some middle eastern extremists.
>
> That Saudi millionaire, bin Laudin, or whatever his name is, claimed
> BIG was coming, but I'd more easily believe a
bunch of the McVeigh-style
> rednecks would do this sort of thing.
>
> Of course, the WTC has been the target of middle-eastern terrorism before
...
>
> I think it would be pretty difficult for a middle eastern organization to
find
> personnel to pull off four concurrent hijackings
in the U.S. as easily as
the
> local rednecks could do it. What's more, the
middle-eastern terrorists
don't
> normally do things on this scale, those embassy
bombings being an exception
> rather than the rule. This invites a level of retaliation that they (the
> middle-eastern groups) are unwilling to tolerate. Those redneck groups
don't
> care if they kill a billion people.
>
> The suicidal nature of this combination of acts points to the
middle-easterners,
yet the
pointless nature points at the rednecks. Who knows?
It certainly is confusing. I question a bunch of Mcviegh types too, I
mean, I don't think we normally get a big concentration of McViegh
types..... you'd have to be really crazy, not just a follower of a
crazy.
I think I understand and agree with your assessment of middle eastern
terrorists too. They tend not to do things this big.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
6:33 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
Sadly, the only way in which such acts can be
anticipated and
prevented in the future is for us to give up some of the privacy we
cherish. Technology and law protect those who enjoy this privacy.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
7:19 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
Yes, it's a delicate balance that has to be struck, and we haven't had much luck
with that of late. Nevertheless, something's got to be done, not right away,
but over time, to update our attitudes and priorities to the current set of
circumstances.
You don't have to give up any essential liberty, but you do have to insist on
your freedom from the transgressions of others. It's our collective
unwillingness to insist on our own rights that allows the terrorists and
criminals to move in our midst with impunity.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: World Trade crash...
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
Sadly, the only way in which such acts can be
anticipated and
prevented in the future is for us to give up some of the privacy we
cherish. Technology and law protect those who enjoy this privacy.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
7:55 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
To all american folk at the list,
This Terror Tuesday has created unimagionable grief!
We feel deeply for the victims and their relatives and
wish them strenght and courage in these barren times
But also hope desperately that reason will prevail.
We are disgusted by the way these cowardly attacks
were executed and want to express that the people
of the Netherlands are stunned in disbelief!
Be strong and wise!
--Sipke & Xandra--
-------------------------------------------------
http://xgistor.ath.cx
-------------------------------------------------
7:50 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
Re:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
> Sadly, the only way in which such acts can be anticipated and
> prevented in the future is for us to give up some of the privacy we
> cherish. Technology and law protect those who enjoy this privacy.
Sellam quoted:
"Those who would give up essential liberty to
purchase a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin
Absolutely! It's *way* to early to jump to the conclusion that
giving up privacy could in any way solve problems and be better for us
in the long run. Thanks, Sellam!
Stan Sieler sieler(a)allegro.com
www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler
11:53 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
Just to set the record straight ... I DID NOT SAY ANYONE HAD TO GIVE UP ANY
PRIVACY RIGHTS. What I said, was that folks will, ultimately, have to make some
choices. In case you wonder about that, read my entire post, please, and don't
assume I said what you disagree with just to piss you off.
what I said was, in part,
"Sadly, the only way in which such acts can be anticipated and prevented in the
future is for us to give up some of the privacy we cherish. Technology and law
protect those who enjoy this privacy. If we insist on giving aid and comfort to
minor criminals by failing to report them each and every time they violate our
laws, and if we insist on retaining our privacy, we'll have to learn to tolerate
this sort of event. The choice is between our own rights and those of the
"minor" criminals. People wouldn't attempt to hide among the populace if
they
knew that the populace would phone the authorities to report their every action.
There's a fine line between complacency and complicity."
There's no guarantee that such acts can be anticipated and prevented at all, but
it's clear that the only way is to have two guys watching each one of us or to
have a computer that reads minds follow each of us around. That's not likely to
happen soon.
In this case, I disagree with Sellam ONLY in the sense that I don't consider
choosing to let someone *other than the government* infringe on my right to live
in an orderly crime-free society to be the right of a responsible citizen any
more than I believe it's a responsible citizen's right to ignore government
abuses. There are rights that have to be defended from infringement by the
government and there are rights that have to be defended from infringement by
other individuals, not to mention by artificial personages in the form of
corporations. Law enforcement is everybody's job, not just that of the police.
It starts with doing your part by obeying the laws, continues with
changing/obsoleting the ones you don't like, and making new ones as they're
needed, and, while it never ends, it also includes doing what you have to in
order to ensure everyone else does his part as well.
If you're not willing to do that, then you get what you deserve. Unfortunately,
then everyone else gets what you deserve as well.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stan Sieler" <sieler(a)allegro.com>
To: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>om>; <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: World Trade crash...
Re:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
> Sadly, the only way in which such acts can be anticipated and
> prevented in the future is for us to give up some of the privacy we
> cherish. Technology and law protect those who enjoy this privacy.
Sellam quoted:
"Those who would give up essential liberty
to purchase a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin
Absolutely! It's *way* too early to jump to the conclusion that
giving up privacy could in any way solve problems and be better for us
in the long run. Thanks, Sellam!
Stan Sieler sieler(a)allegro.com
www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler
12:32 p.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
Just to set the record straight ... I DID NOT SAY
ANYONE HAD TO GIVE
UP ANY PRIVACY RIGHTS. What I said, was that folks will, ultimately,
have to make some choices. In case you wonder about that, read my
entire post, please, and don't assume I said what you disagree with
just to piss you off.
what I said was, in part,
Oh, I understood what you said. You were even kind enough to re-quote it
for me.
"Sadly, the only way in which such acts can be
anticipated and
prevented in the future is for us to give up some of the privacy we
cherish."
And I still think you're incredibly misguided.
In this case, I disagree with Sellam ONLY in the sense
that I don't consider
No, you disagree with Benjamin Franklin, a founding father of this
country, and a very wise man at that.
It starts with doing your part by obeying the laws,
continues with
changing/obsoleting the ones you don't like, and making new ones as
they're needed, and, while it never ends, it also includes doing what
you have to in order to ensure everyone else does his part as well.
Ok, let's arrest the President, his staff, and all the Senators and
Congressmen who have put our nation in such a dire state by enacting
policies that have made us the enemy of the world. Let's then turn them
over to whomever is so pissed at them that they would kill innocent people
to get at them.
Are you willing to do that?
If you're not willing to do that, then you get
what you deserve.
Unfortunately, then everyone else gets what you deserve as well.
The U.S. has reaped what it has sown.
I'm listening to our fearless leader right now, continuing to make a
complete ass of himself. Impeachment anyone?
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
12:49 p.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
I'm listening to our fearless leader right now,
continuing to make a
complete ass of himself. Impeachment anyone?
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
Nope...
I don't think much of the policies of our current and recent
administrations (back through the late 60's).
However, I'd sooner see any of them in charge of this country
than you right now.
I'd defend your right to make these comments.
However I defend my right to call you a horses ass for making them.
(not to mention very politically naive).
Bill
--
d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now!
bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org
1:29 p.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
I can't agree with your logic or with the conclusions at which you arrive this
time. However, it's clear that you can, at least, turn a phrase much better
than our chief exec.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: World Trade crash...
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
Just to set the record straight ... I DID NOT SAY
ANYONE HAD TO GIVE
UP ANY PRIVACY RIGHTS. What I said, was that folks will, ultimately,
have to make some choices. In case you wonder about that, read my
entire post, please, and don't assume I said what you disagree with
just to piss you off.
what I said was, in part,
Oh, I understood what you said. You were even kind enough to re-quote it
for me.
"Sadly, the only way in which such acts can
be anticipated and
prevented in the future is for us to give up some of the privacy we
cherish."
And I still think you're incredibly misguided.
In this case, I disagree with Sellam ONLY in the
sense that I don't consider
No, you disagree with Benjamin Franklin, a founding father of this
country, and a very wise man at that.
It starts with doing your part by obeying the
laws, continues with
changing/obsoleting the ones you don't like, and making new ones as
they're needed, and, while it never ends, it also includes doing what
you have to in order to ensure everyone else does his part as well.
Ok, let's arrest the President, his staff, and all the Senators and
Congressmen who have put our nation in such a dire state by enacting
policies that have made us the enemy of the world. Let's then turn them
over to whomever is so pissed at them that they would kill innocent people
to get at them.
Are you willing to do that?
If you're not willing to do that, then you
get what you deserve.
Unfortunately, then everyone else gets what you deserve as well.
The U.S. has reaped what it has sown.
I'm listening to our fearless leader right now, continuing to make a
complete ass of himself. Impeachment anyone?
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
6:42 p.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
I didn't see it, but who cares if he doesn't phrase things the best....
he's probably shaken up quite a bit over it. Gouliani (spelling?)
wasn't the most eloquent either. So what??
Even Arafat was stumbling over his words, granted, I have know idea how
well he speaks English, but he seemed disturbed over it to me. I
suppose he could be a pretty good actor, but since I am not in the
intelligence community, I'll leave that to them to decide.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
Richard Erlacher wrote:
I can't agree with your logic or with the conclusions at which you arrive this
time. However, it's clear that you can, at least, turn a phrase much better
than our chief exec.
Dick
8:34 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote:
Sadly, the
only way in which such acts can be anticipated and
prevented in the future is for
us to give up some of the privacy we
cherish. Technology and law protect those who enjoy this privacy. "Those who would give up essential liberty to
purchase a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin
Thank you, Sellam
Those who would destroy the country in the name of protecting it are a
bigger enemy than those who attacked this morning.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred
12:37 p.m.
New subject: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote:
Sadly,
the only way in which such acts can be anticipated and
prevented in the future is
for us to give up some of the privacy we
cherish. Technology and law protect those who enjoy this privacy. "Those who would give up essential liberty
to purchase a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin
Thank you, Sellam
Those who would destroy the country in the name of protecting it are a
bigger enemy than those who attacked this morning.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred To all of you over there:
I can?t describe what I felt when having heard those bad news an seen the
first pictures... Tears are in my and many German eyes feeling with everyone
injured or the people who have lost relatives or friends... As my English is
not very good I?m not going to try to say more. Words are missings for those
feelings...
Thomas
(from Germany)
We live in very strange times.
My daughter's friend's dad may have lost his best friend on the 108th
floor of the 2 World Trade Center... but he doesn't know his friend's
status yet.
I think that most people around the world would feel for the loss of
life of the folks in the building. I grew up in New York and
attended schools there before moving to New Jersey.
I was a history major before getting in to this computer industry.
I've worked with folks from all over the globe in multinational
companies.
I don't think I'm unusual in my view that this type of action deserves
decisive punishment when the people responsible are found.
If you allow it to drive the civil population into a state of fear and
panic and if we begin to curtail freedom of speach and assembly they
will be winning.
The only way to avoid events like this is to increase security at
airports -- which often is lax in this country... I've heard
of real security at airlines like El Al which does a serious
baggage and weapons check.
I'd hate to see this anti-foreigner attitude take hold for real.
Historically it usually occurs for a short period of time before
people realize we're a nation built mainly of foreigners who came here
to avoid pogroms and repression on economic, religious and
ethnic grounds.
I really don't think I'm a great fan of either President Bush or
former President Clinton, but I really feel that the military and
intelligence community have not done enough to get ready for the
new non-traditional methods of conflict and we're headed for more of
this.
I've worked out of Fort Monmouth for DEC and other organizations and I
know the bureacracy there has kept the military from using the
commercially available technologies effectively.
The US military is way too wedded to the old mil-spec way of
doing things. Wired had a good article showing that they're beginning to
hire consultants to adjust their method of doing business.
They used to draw up specs for things they needed which caused their
costs to be hire than off-the-shelf technology would have been.
Building custom limited production devices is expensive.
Luckily they cancelled their MCF Military Computer Family project
which was building a Vax work-alike computer in the mid-80's
when the MicrovaxII became available off the shelf.
They're beginning to adapt. I hope it will allow us to avoid losing our
freedoms to have the security all folks want and deserve.
Bill
--
d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now!
bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org
2:46 p.m.
New subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers
At 08:37 PM 9/11/2001 -0400, you wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote:
> > "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary
> > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin
>
> Thank you, Sellam
>
> Those who would destroy the country in the name of protecting it are a
> bigger enemy than those who attacked this morning.
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred
Yes. That is the other threat posed by the events of today. Some in our
society, the reactionary elements in the federal law enforcement and
"national security" agencies, will no doubt try to use these events as an
excuse to further gut civil liberties which have already been nearly
eviscerated by the miserable failure known as the "War on Drugs." The
congressional reaction to the Oklahoma City bombing of the Murrah federal
building produced new federal laws greatly expanding the power of the FBI
and other federal law enforcement agencies to surveil and infiltrate
organizations they wish to investigate, even if the organization in
question cannot be connected with criminal activity. The same opportunists
who capitalized on that tragedy will not doubt try to do the same with this
one. Unfortunately, they will probably succeed.
The only way to avoid events like this is to increase
security at
airports -- which often is lax in this country... I've heard
of real security at airlines like El Al which does a serious
baggage and weapons check.
It's sad. At the height of the late 80s wave of terrorist airliner
bombings, I went to the UK on a high school trip. The security at JFK was
a joke. The person tending the x-ray machine wasn't even looking at the
screen half of the time. Gate and checkpoint security were not much
better. In contrast, in Ireland on the trip home to the US, two guards
were glued to the x-ray machine monitor, everyone's passports were
individually checked, and every one of us was questioned extensively before
we were permitted to through _two_ metal detectors. After that we got to
go to another checkpoint to get our tickets back so that we could go to the
gate to then have our tickets checked against our passports. _That_ is
real security.
3:31 p.m.
New subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Arthur E. Clark wrote:
Drugs." The congressional reaction to the
Oklahoma City bombing of
the Murrah federal building produced new federal laws greatly
expanding the power of the FBI and other federal law enforcement
agencies to surveil and infiltrate organizations they wish to
investigate, even if the organization in question cannot be connected
with criminal activity. The same opportunists who capitalized on that
tragedy will not doubt try to do the same with this one.
Unfortunately, they will probably succeed.
Yes, and a lot of good those enhanced powers given to the FBI did us
today.
I wish more people would pay attention to history. I would hope that all
of use here, being amateur historians, will do just that (in all aspects
of our lives).
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
12 Sep
12 Sep
1:08 a.m.
New subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers
Keep in mind, Arthur, that you can't have it both ways. You've got to choose
between security and freedom. I think what Sellam is driving at is that every
externally imposed effort to ensure your security impairs someone's freedoms.
Perhaps we don't all see it that way, but it could be argued. Nonetheless, I
don't feel that letting someone look in my carry-on luggage to make sure I don't
have guns, knives, bombs, etc. is a reasonable infringement, partiticularly
since I've effectively agreed to allow this invasion of my privacy as part of
the contract associated with air travel.
I'm sure the "essential liberty" to which Ben was referring didn't
include the
liberty to be irresponsible or selfish to the extent that it risks social order
and encourages terrorists by overtly hiding them in our midst.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur E. Clark" <arthur.clark3(a)verizon.net>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 8:46 PM
Subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers
At 08:37 PM 9/11/2001 -0400, you wrote:
> > On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote:
> > > "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little
temporary
> >
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin
>
> Thank you, Sellam
>
> Those who would destroy the country in the name of protecting it are a
> bigger enemy than those who attacked this morning.
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred
Yes. That is the other threat posed by the events of today. Some in our
society, the reactionary elements in the federal law enforcement and
"national security" agencies, will no doubt try to use these events as an
excuse to further gut civil liberties which have already been nearly
eviscerated by the miserable failure known as the "War on Drugs." The
congressional reaction to the Oklahoma City bombing of the Murrah federal
building produced new federal laws greatly expanding the power of the FBI
and other federal law enforcement agencies to surveil and infiltrate
organizations they wish to investigate, even if the organization in
question cannot be connected with criminal activity. The same opportunists
who capitalized on that tragedy will not doubt try to do the same with this
one. Unfortunately, they will probably succeed.
The only way to avoid events like this is to
increase security at
airports -- which often is lax in this country... I've heard
of real security at airlines like El Al which does a serious
baggage and weapons check.
It's sad. At the height of the late 80s wave of terrorist airliner
bombings, I went to the UK on a high school trip. The security at JFK was
a joke. The person tending the x-ray machine wasn't even looking at the
screen half of the time. Gate and checkpoint security were not much
better. In contrast, in Ireland on the trip home to the US, two guards
were glued to the x-ray machine monitor, everyone's passports were
individually checked, and every one of us was questioned extensively before
we were permitted to through _two_ metal detectors. After that we got to
go to another checkpoint to get our tickets back so that we could go to the
gate to then have our tickets checked against our passports. _That_ is
real security.
5:08 a.m.
New subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
Keep in mind, Arthur, that you can't have it both
ways. You've got to
choose between security and freedom. I think what Sellam is driving
at is that every externally imposed effort to ensure your security
impairs someone's freedoms.
What I'm saying is that every time something like this happens, we react
by putting more security in place, while we continue with the policies
that created the atmosphere that made yesterday's attacks possible. If
this keeps up, one day we won't be able to go anywhere without a security
agent tracking our every move and listening to our every word. Is that
the solution you want?
I would much prefer that the US "leadership" perform that role (i.e.
lead) appropriately by re-evaluating the policies that would make us so
hated that some group would carry out an attack such as yesterday's.
You can throw all the security you want at it. It still won't stop people
from wanting to bring harm to the US and it's
people.
Perhaps we don't all see it that way, but it could
be argued.
Nonetheless, I don't feel that letting someone look in my carry-on
luggage to make sure I don't have guns, knives, bombs, etc. is a
reasonable infringement, partiticularly since I've effectively agreed
to allow this invasion of my privacy as part of the contract
associated with air travel.
I don't think it is a reasonable infringement either, but when they start
checking up my ass everytime I want to get on a plane, then I'll just stay
home.
I'm sure the "essential liberty" to
which Ben was referring didn't
include the liberty to be irresponsible or selfish to the extent that
it risks social order and encourages terrorists by overtly hiding them
in our midst.
Of course not, but it gets at another fundamental truth, which is that you
cannot solve the problem by hiding it under a bandage.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
5:36 a.m.
New subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers
I should have been more clear ... apparently ... I don't feel it's an
infringement on my liberty at all, letting them check inside my carry-on
luggage. I agree to such examination of the contents of my carry-on and person
when I sign up to travel by air.
The authorities check inside my briefcase and cause me to empty my pockets into
a tray for inspection every time I go into the courthouse. That's been the case
since the first day of the Neil Bush trial on 1/15/91. I used to carry a 1.25"
long "Swiss-Army" knife on my keychain, mainly for the nail-file and scissors.
I have to turn that in when I go to court, and reclaim it when I leave the
courthouse. It's probably a good thing, though, else I might have been tempted
to clip the judge's eyebrows ...
I'm not sure I understand what you mean, here.
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
<snip>
Perhaps we
don't all see it that way, but it could be argued.
Nonetheless, I don't feel that letting someone look in my carry-on
luggage to make sure I don't have guns, knives, bombs, etc. is a
reasonable infringement, partiticularly since I've effectively agreed
to allow this invasion of my privacy as part of the contract
associated with air travel.
I don't think it is a reasonable infringement either, but when they start
checking up my ass everytime I want to get on a plane, then I'll just stay
home.
I'm sure the "essential liberty" to
which Ben was referring didn't
include the liberty to be irresponsible or selfish to the extent that
it risks social order and encourages terrorists by overtly hiding them
in our midst.
Of course not, but it gets at another fundamental truth, which is that you
cannot solve the problem by hiding it under a bandage.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
7:56 a.m.
New subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers
At 10:08 AM 9/12/2001 -0700, you wrote:
I would much prefer that the US "leadership"
perform that role (i.e.
lead) appropriately by re-evaluating the policies that would make us so
hated that some group would carry out an attack such as yesterday's.
I
agree with much of what you say, but along the same line of
thought, no matter how 'nice' we are to others there will always be some
who hate us, regardless of what we try to do. Being 'nice' and 'friendly'
is not a solution to this problem (which doesn't mean we should or
shouldn't do that).
Gordon
8:42 a.m.
New subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Gordon Zaft wrote:
I agree with much of what you say, but along
the same line of
thought, no matter how 'nice' we are to others there will always be
some who hate us, regardless of what we try to do. Being 'nice' and
'friendly' is not a solution to this problem (which doesn't mean we
should or shouldn't do that).
That is bullshit rhetoric. Political "leaders" came out in full force
with that garbage last night to throw attention away from their
ineptitude.
The US is (or was) an open, free and prosperous society (or at least is
supposed to be) that many people around the world dream of coming to, and
this country was founded in part on the principle of accepting those
people.
No, I don't buy that people hate us just because we are an open, free and
prosperous nation. We have pissed people off around the world because of
our actions over the past half-century.
If you believe otherwise then you're in denial.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
9:17 a.m.
New subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers
As a citizen of the United States, I stand behind, and fully support our
leaders in this time of crisis. No matter how hard you try to spin
this, this sensless act of destruction was *wrong*. There is no way you
can justify this act - no matter who we may have "pissed off".
You piss me off. But you may forget what makes this country great - and
It's your right to voice your opinion. And I will gladly give my life
to defend your right to say it.
Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com)
On Wed, 2001-09-12 at 16:42, Sellam Ismail wrote:
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Gordon Zaft wrote:
I agree with much of what you say, but
along the same line of
thought, no matter how 'nice' we are to others there will always be
some who hate us, regardless of what we try to do. Being 'nice' and
'friendly' is not a solution to this problem (which doesn't mean we
should or shouldn't do that).
That is bullshit rhetoric. Political "leaders" came out in full force
with that garbage last night to throw attention away from their
ineptitude.
The US is (or was) an open, free and prosperous society (or at least is
supposed to be) that many people around the world dream of coming to, and
this country was founded in part on the principle of accepting those
people.
No, I don't buy that people hate us just because we are an open, free and
prosperous nation. We have pissed people off around the world because of
our actions over the past half-century.
If you believe otherwise then you're in denial.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
9:58 a.m.
New subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers
On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote:
No, I don't buy that people hate us just because we are an open, free and
prosperous nation. We have pissed people off around the world because of
our actions over the past half-century.
If you believe otherwise then you're in denial.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
If you believe it's only the half-century you're in denial and don't
know Latin American history.
We've done a number of things there which are the equivalent actions
of those in Europe, the Middle East and Asia.
It's been a problem since the days of Remember the Maine and before.
Speak Softly and Carry A Big Stick. Manifest Destiny my ass.
National self interest is often cloaked in other than the truth.
(Sometimes we're in agreement... )
Bill
--
d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now!
bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org
12:15 p.m.
New subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers
No, I don't buy that people hate us just because we
are an open, free and
prosperous nation. We have pissed people off around the world because of
our actions over the past half-century.
Isn't thisone of the stages, where the victum feels guilty?
Did the powers of the world generally screw up the middle east, Duh!
Did the powers of the middle east make it much worse, again Duh!
Big mistakes that come to mind;
Artificial creation of a number of new or combined states after WWII.
Brought the Shah of Iran to power.
Walked away from the Shah of Iran.
Many people are unhappy with "the American way", normally I have a fair
amount of tolerance, but today that tolerance extends only to those who
practice peacefull means. Disdain, but luke warm tolerance of terrorists
and their quiet supportors has come to an end.
What I hope can happen, since I really have no taste for mass killing, is
that Bush will form a large and serious coalition, and one by one those
nations that support terrorism will beg for mercy, and offer up all they
hold to sue for peace. Perhaps with just a touch of luck the nations of the
world can agree to a different path, and a series of large and bloody
examples will not be required.
11 Sep
11 Sep
4:57 p.m.
New subject: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Bill Pechter wrote:
I think that you need to explore whether it is the military or the
Congress that created and fostered the Mil-Spec and contractual wickets
that are finally being whittled down. No argument, however, that it
was/is costly and unproductive.
- don
On Tue, 11 Sep
2001, Richard Erlacher wrote:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote:
Sadly,
the only way in which such acts can be anticipated and
prevented in the future is
for us to give up some of the privacy we
cherish. Technology and law protect those who enjoy this privacy. "Those who would give up essential liberty
to purchase a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin
Thank you, Sellam
Those who would destroy the country in the name of protecting it are a
bigger enemy than those who attacked this morning.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred To all of you over there:
I can?t describe what I felt when having heard those bad news an seen the
first pictures... Tears are in my and many German eyes feeling with everyone
injured or the people who have lost relatives or friends... As my English is
not very good I?m not going to try to say more. Words are missings for those
feelings...
Thomas
(from Germany)
We live in very strange times.
My daughter's friend's dad may have lost his best friend on the 108th
floor of the 2 World Trade Center... but he doesn't know his friend's
status yet.
I think that most people around the world would feel for the loss of
life of the folks in the building. I grew up in New York and
attended schools there before moving to New Jersey.
I was a history major before getting in to this computer industry.
I've worked with folks from all over the globe in multinational
companies.
I don't think I'm unusual in my view that this type of action deserves
decisive punishment when the people responsible are found.
If you allow it to drive the civil population into a state of fear and
panic and if we begin to curtail freedom of speach and assembly they
will be winning.
The only way to avoid events like this is to increase security at
airports -- which often is lax in this country... I've heard
of real security at airlines like El Al which does a serious
baggage and weapons check.
I'd hate to see this anti-foreigner attitude take hold for real.
Historically it usually occurs for a short period of time before
people realize we're a nation built mainly of foreigners who came here
to avoid pogroms and repression on economic, religious and
ethnic grounds.
I really don't think I'm a great fan of either President Bush or
former President Clinton, but I really feel that the military and
intelligence community have not done enough to get ready for the
new non-traditional methods of conflict and we're headed for more of
this.
I've worked out of Fort Monmouth for DEC and other organizations and I
know the bureacracy there has kept the military from using the
commercially available technologies effectively.
The US military is way too wedded to the old mil-spec way of
doing things. Wired had a good article showing that they're beginning to
hire consultants to adjust their method of doing business.
They used to draw up specs for things they needed which caused their
costs to be hire than off-the-shelf technology would have been.
Building custom limited production devices is expensive.
Luckily they cancelled their MCF Military Computer Family project
which was building a Vax work-alike computer in the mid-80's
when the MicrovaxII became available off the shelf. They're beginning to adapt. I hope it will allow
us to avoid losing our
freedoms to have the security all folks want and deserve.
Bill
--
d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now!
bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org
12 Sep
12 Sep
1:53 a.m.
New subject: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers
I'm not sure that the congress had much to do with the spec's for that
militarized microVax-II that was under development in the '80's. I worked, for
a time, on the "all-source-analysis system" project, which was a
congressionally
mandated project run by JPL in Pasadena, in which they took the microVax
(originally an Apple-II) and used it to present intelligence information for
analysis. The project grew and grew, and, by JPL's direction, became more and
more convoluted and costly, because the JPL guys had no clue about how to manage
costs, never having had to work on things that were intended to be produced in
multiples.
There may have been other similar projects, but the one with which I'm
acquainted used the microVAX-II in a militarized enclosure that allowed the
computer to enjoy a commercial environment inside, while exposed to a military
environment outside.
It used a fiber-based redundant clone of ethernet, which didn't work well,
initially, with DEC's idea of what ethernet was, and it used a really nice (I
liked the "8x10-glossy" look of the CRT) high-resolution graphics display
rather
than an Apple-II display, along with initially ESDI and later SCSI (much faster
and cheaper) 5-1/4" hard drives. Moreover, instead of the TK-50's, it was
intended to use WORM drives, which was never realized because the industry
wasn't far enough along.
Except for the fact that it was a set of congressionally mandated busy work for
the JPL guys, this might have been a useful project, but with all the politics
and corruption at the JPL (the managing agency) end, it was doomed from the
start.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Maslin" <donm(a)cts.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Bill Pechter wrote:
<snip>
I really
don't think I'm a great fan of either President Bush or
former President Clinton, but I really feel that the military and
intelligence community have not done enough to get ready for the
new non-traditional methods of conflict and we're headed for more of
this.
I've worked out of Fort Monmouth for DEC and other organizations and I
know the bureacracy there has kept the military from using the
commercially available technologies effectively.
The US military is way too wedded to the old mil-spec way of
doing things. Wired had a good article showing that they're beginning to
hire consultants to adjust their method of doing business.
They used to draw up specs for things they needed which caused their
costs to be hire than off-the-shelf technology would have been.
Building custom limited production devices is expensive.
Luckily they cancelled their MCF Military Computer Family project
which was building a Vax work-alike computer in the mid-80's
when the MicrovaxII became available off the shelf.
I think that you need to explore whether it is the military or the
Congress that created and fostered the Mil-Spec and contractual wickets
that are finally being whittled down. No argument, however, that it
was/is costly and unproductive.
- don
They're beginning to adapt. I hope it will
allow us to avoid losing our
freedoms to have the security all folks want and deserve.
Bill
--
d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now!
bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org
3:18 a.m.
New subject: Military Computer Family (MCF)
I'm not sure that the congress had much to do with
the spec's for that
militarized microVax ...
Dick
Actually, it was for a family of Mil-Spec'd computers which were pretty
much Vax-like to run ADA and the Ada Language System for the military
rather than a ruggedized Microvax.
GE, RCA, and Raytheon, IIRC, were designing and implementing special
silicon to allow the military to have their own computer architecture
which would be required for future projects.
Of course, DEC's release of the 78032 chip pretty much rendered this
obsolete and the competing architectures dried up and the funding went
away as Raytheon did the ruggedized Vaxes for the Patriot control
systems and as GE and RCA eventually became one company and the RCA
Solid State development stuff in Somerset, NJ went I don't know where.
I couldn't figure why they didn't look at the Z8000 and 68020 and
NS16032 (later 32016 and 32032) architectures which were solidifying at
about the same time -- except these were government plans pushed by
what Eisenhower called the "Military-Industrial Complex" and would've
given the government folks jobs for years overseeing production,
availability and multiple sourceing the silicon for the soon-to-be
dead Ada Language System from SofTech (which is another horror story I
witnessed part of at Fort Monmouth>.
(classiccmp tie in: yes it was the same SofTech that purchased UCSD pascal...)
Bill
I found a couple of interstings hit on the google search for this:
http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usassi/ssipubs/pubs98/evlutech/evlutech.pdf
Mentions the Military Computer Family platform was a 15 year old project
that they abandoned in 1984.
http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~perry/work/pre83bib.html
11 Sep
11 Sep
6:39 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
I have been off list for a while, making calls etc., due
to the early notice about this. (Thanks David W.)
Sure it's off topic but it does touch the lives of all Americans.
I'm just 40 miles or so from the incident. FYI I use broadcast
(antenna) to get my TV. The entire VHF spectrum, except one,
was out. NBC, Fox, ABC, UPN, WB, PBS... all out. Only CBS
was apparently off the WTC tower. Cellphones all out too.
It's reported that towers had a capacity of 50,000 workers and
200,000 <em>daily visitors. I'm praying for the final numbers to
go "improbably" low.
I heard the president say "God Bless" a while ago, I'm thankful
for that. I hope we (The USA and World) can all keep a level
head through this. While my fear is that religious fundamentalism
has been used to seperate warfare from nationalism (making a
formal declaration of war difficult), my hope is all religious people
everywhere love peace, or will learn to want peace, and we can
all get there together.
A hope is that the World will unite against terrorism with us.
An example like the Nurenburg trials comes to mind. Strong
justice carefully considered, then delivered.
John A. in NY
2:59 a.m.
How big is a 737? I didn't think an airplane would do that much
damage. The Empire State building has been hit before, by accident,
although, it prpbably wasn't a direct hit.
I see it on TV, However. I'm stunned, really.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
David Woyciesjes wrote:
I take it you all heard about the two 737s (?) hitting the world trade
buildings...
one was possibly a hijacked airliner... each hit a seperate tower, I
believe...
--- David A Woyciesjes
--- C & IS Support Specialist
--- Yale University Press
--- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu
--- (203) 432-0953
--- ICQ # - 905818
6:05 a.m.
BIG. Really big. And it's not just the size that's important...the plane
weighs a lot. Imagine the amount of kinetic energy imparted to the building
when those planes hit at 200+ MPH...the force went all the way through each
tower, as we've all horrifingly seen on the news. What's astonishing is not
that they did as much damage as they did, but that the buildings didn't
collapse immediately upon being hit.
My thoughts and sympathies go out to everyone involved in this tragedy...this
is truly an astonishingly black day.
Chad Fernandez said:
How big is a 737? I didn't think an airplane
would do that much
damage. The Empire State building has been hit before, by accident,
although, it prpbably wasn't a direct hit.
I see it on TV, However. I'm stunned, really.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
David Woyciesjes wrote:
>
> I take it you all heard about the two 737s (?) hitting the world trade
> buildings...
> one was possibly a hijacked airliner... each hit a seperate tower, I
> believe...
>
> --- David A Woyciesjes
> --- C & IS Support Specialist
> --- Yale University Press
> --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu
> --- (203) 432-0953
> --- ICQ # - 905818
- Dan Wright
(dtwright(a)uiuc.edu)
(http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright)
-] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [-
``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread,
For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.''
Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan
7:17 a.m.
BIG. Really big. And it's not just the size
that's important...the plane
weighs a lot. Imagine the amount of kinetic energy imparted to the building
when those planes hit at 200+ MPH...the force went all the way through each
tower, as we've all horrifingly seen on the news. What's astonishing is not
that they did as much damage as they did, but that the buildings didn't
collapse immediately upon being hit.
If memory serves me, a 737 weighs in at about 200,000lbs empty, add maybe
another 150,000 for people, fuel, cargo and baggage.
g.
11:35 a.m.
At 12:17 PM 9/11/01 -0700, you wrote:
If memory serves me, a 737 weighs in at about
200,000lbs empty, add maybe
another 150,000 for people, fuel, cargo and baggage.
Plus, in case no one else has noticed, all the planes were large aircraft
heading for west coast destinations, i.e. full of fuel. I have no trouble
at all believing that a fuel/air explosion with 200,000 gallons of jet fuel
could bring down the building.
Give blood, give life,
--Chuck
2:17 p.m.
Close - it's listed as a 312,000lb take off weight which generally means the
max weight to be able to lift off the ground (full 69,000 lb "payload" of
passengers, fuel, etc) so it fully fueled and half the payload is one heavy
mo-fo.
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
-> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chuck McManis
-> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 6:35 PM
-> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
-> Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash...
->
->
-> At 12:17 PM 9/11/01 -0700, you wrote:
-> >If memory serves me, a 737 weighs in at about 200,000lbs empty,
-> add maybe
-> >another 150,000 for people, fuel, cargo and baggage.
->
-> Plus, in case no one else has noticed, all the planes were large
-> aircraft
-> heading for west coast destinations, i.e. full of fuel. I have
-> no trouble
-> at all believing that a fuel/air explosion with 200,000 gallons
-> of jet fuel
-> could bring down the building.
->
-> Give blood, give life,
-> --Chuck
->
->
->
->
5:58 a.m.
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote:
I take it you all heard about the two 737s (?) hitting
the world trade
buildings...
one was possibly a hijacked airliner... each hit a seperate tower, I
believe...
When I first saw the news, I thought it was some kind of joke, then I was
baffled, then I thought that this would be a good day to delete all
classiccmp messages.
This is absolutely OT.
6:37 a.m.
I take it you all heard about the two 737s (?) hitting
the world trade
buildings...
one was possibly a hijacked airliner... each hit a seperate tower, I
believe...
Yes. A friend of mine watched while the south tower collapsed. His wife
was on the 14th floor. If it was up to me, every country even suspected
of harboring terrorists would be a glowing cinder. Those fucking ragheads
don't know how lucky they are that I can't launch nuclear missles. I'd
have fired them all. Without remorse and without regret.
Fucking cowards.
g.
7:07 a.m.
Yes. A friend of mine watched while the south tower
collapsed. His wife
was on the 14th floor. If it was up to me, every country even suspected
of harboring terrorists would be a glowing cinder.
<snip>
Fucking cowards.
Man, I hope that the people responsible are ready to receive
what they've unleashed.....it's going to get ugly...
Jeff
--
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.cchaven.com
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
9 a.m.
Yup it is...someone has to deal with the US, it's allies, and those soon to
become allies by virtue of what has happened and that they don't want it to
have to them next.
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
-> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeff Hellige
-> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 2:07 PM
-> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
-> Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash...
->
->
-> >Yes. A friend of mine watched while the south tower collapsed.
-> His wife
-> >was on the 14th floor. If it was up to me, every country even suspected
-> >of harboring terrorists would be a glowing cinder.
-> <snip>
-> >Fucking cowards.
->
-> Man, I hope that the people responsible are ready to receive
-> what they've unleashed.....it's going to get ugly...
->
-> Jeff
-> --
-> Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
-> http://www.cchaven.com
-> http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
->
10:59 a.m.
-> >Yes. A friend of mine watched while the south tower collapsed.
-> His wife
-> >was on the 14th floor. If it was up to me, every country even suspected
-> >of harboring terrorists would be a glowing cinder.
-> <snip>
-> >Fucking cowards.
->
-> Man, I hope that the people responsible are ready to receive
-> what they've unleashed.....it's going to get ugly...
->
I hope that we have the will to do something more than a long drawn out
investigation leading to the arrest of a handful of people.
This has the middle east written all over it...
We need to find out who is most likely resonsible and then
get have the President ask the Congress to declare war!
Let those that claim to be innocent sue for peace!
I hope that twe nuke then back to the stone age....
12:38 p.m.
Let me get this straight:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Mike Drew wrote:
This has the middle east written all over it...
Let those that claim to be innocent sue for peace!
I hope that twe nuke then back to the stone age....
It's people like you -- intolerant of ethnicity, assuming the guilt of a
group of people based on pure rumor, even *wishing* for nuclear war --
that should truly be feared.
Let us all hope that someone like you never gets their hand on 'the
button'.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
2:08 p.m.
You hit it exactly right on this one. I worked nuclear cruise missiles
during my career int he USAF and I have no desire to see more than the
ALCM-C (ALCM's with a conventional warhead) missiles depoyed. I still have
my reservations about the need for nuclear war in any circumstance.
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
-> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeffrey S. Sharp
-> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 7:38 PM
-> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
-> Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash...
->
->
-> Let me get this straight:
->
-> On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Mike Drew wrote:
-> >
-> > This has the middle east written all over it...
-> > Let those that claim to be innocent sue for peace!
-> > I hope that twe nuke then back to the stone age....
->
-> It's people like you -- intolerant of ethnicity, assuming the guilt of a
-> group of people based on pure rumor, even *wishing* for nuclear war --
-> that should truly be feared.
->
-> Let us all hope that someone like you never gets their hand on 'the
-> button'.
->
-> --
-> Jeffrey S. Sharp
-> jss(a)subatomix.com
->
->
8:32 a.m.
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Gene Buckle wrote:
Yes. A friend of mine watched while the south tower
collapsed. His wife
was on the 14th floor. If it was up to me, every country even suspected
of harboring terrorists would be a glowing cinder.
"even suspected"
seems a bit rash
Those fucking ragheads
what makes you think that
they did it?
We all share your rage, but hold down the personal prejudices until you
have SOME justification.
don't know how lucky they are that I can't
launch nuclear missles. I'd
have fired them all. Without remorse and without regret.
and then you would have none left to use when you find out who REALLY did
it!
Blaming middle-easterners, or "ragheads" as you put it, turned out not to
be the answer in Oklahoma; wait to retaliate until you know who to
retaliate against.
Fucking cowards.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred
10:10 a.m.
Fred I agree totally with this - people need to hold back on the anti-group
attitude until it's determined who actually did it. Although it looks like a
middle eastern thing with reason for justification there's still the
possibility that some post-communist group or other group that either
follows the same ideals as those we feel it is have done this, including a
possibility of some inside group. Also once it's determined we have to keep
from including people born in the US of the same
background from being
persecuted, like the German and Japanese immigrants and
natives of that
group were done 60 yrs ago.
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
-> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Fred Cisin
-> (XenoSoft)
-> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 3:32 PM
-> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org (E-mail)
-> Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash...
->
->
-> On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Gene Buckle wrote:
-> > Yes. A friend of mine watched while the south tower
-> collapsed. His wife
-> > was on the 14th floor. If it was up to me, every country even
-> suspected
-> > of harboring terrorists would be a glowing cinder.
-> "even suspected" seems a bit rash
->
-> > Those fucking ragheads
-> what makes you think that they did it?
-> We all share your rage, but hold down the personal prejudices until you
-> have SOME justification.
->
-> > don't know how lucky they are that I can't launch nuclear missles.
I'd
-> > have fired them all. Without remorse and without regret.
->
-> and then you would have none left to use when you find out who REALLY did
-> it!
->
-> Blaming middle-easterners, or "ragheads" as you put it, turned out not to
-> be the answer in Oklahoma; wait to retaliate until you know who to
-> retaliate against.
->
-> > Fucking cowards.
->
->
->
-> --
-> Grumpy Ol' Fred
->
->
11:16 a.m.
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote:
Fred I agree totally with this - people need to hold
back on the
anti-group attitude until it's determined who actually did it.
Although it looks like a middle eastern thing with reason for
justification there's still the possibility that some post-communist
group or other group that either follows the same ideals as those we
feel it is have done this, including a possibility of some inside
group. Also once it's determined we have to keep from including people
born in the US of the same background from being persecuted, like the
German and Japanese immigrants and natives of that group were done 60
yrs ago.
Not only that, but the assumption that everyone in the Middle East is hell
bent on the distruction of the United States is misguided.
I hope people can use this tragedy of epic proportions to learn
compassion, understanding, and tolerance.
Like I said, this is a reckoning.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
12:30 p.m.
I have many friends that are both natives of the US and immigrants to the US
from middle eastern nations and they feel the pain of
this as bad as any
person of Ameerican Indian, European or African decent born in
the US. A
cabbie in Louisville that works near a building I had a service call at
today had just come back from his second donation of blood for the blood
bank - 2 hours after his first. He lied to the second donation center to
have them allow his second doonation in one day. He's an Iranian by birth
and naturalized just last year, sponsored by a person who was born in
Louisville but whose parents are WWII immigrants from Jerusalem. They all
are appauled and feel the same that the perps should be totally taken out
but that the rest should not suffer for the acts of an isolated group.
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
-> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Sellam Ismail
-> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 6:17 PM
-> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org
-> Subject: RE: OT: World Trade crash...
->
->
-> On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote:
->
-> > Fred I agree totally with this - people need to hold back on the
-> > anti-group attitude until it's determined who actually did it.
-> > Although it looks like a middle eastern thing with reason for
-> > justification there's still the possibility that some post-communist
-> > group or other group that either follows the same ideals as those we
-> > feel it is have done this, including a possibility of some inside
-> > group. Also once it's determined we have to keep from including people
-> > born in the US of the same background from being persecuted, like the
-> > German and Japanese immigrants and natives of that group were done 60
-> > yrs ago.
->
-> Not only that, but the assumption that everyone in the Middle
-> East is hell
-> bent on the distruction of the United States is misguided.
->
-> I hope people can use this tragedy of epic proportions to learn
-> compassion, understanding, and tolerance.
->
-> Like I said, this is a reckoning.
->
-> Sellam Ismail Vintage
-> Computer Festival
-> -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> -------------
-> International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-> http://www.vintage.org
->
->
6:44 p.m.
Like I said, this is a reckoning.
It is only a reckoning in the eyes of a select few -- such
as those firing guns in the air in celebration of the many
dead. There is no way that the taking of thousands of
"innocent" lives balances out anything. Just as nothing
will be resolved when we inevitably do the same in
retaliation.
12 Sep
12 Sep
4:34 a.m.
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Wayne M. Smith wrote:
I'll try to make this my last comment on this.
Wayne, and everyone else:
When I say this is a "reckoning", I do not mean it is "revenge" or
"payback" or any other similar synonym. I do not mean we deserved it, I
do not mean we had it coming. What happened yesterday should never happen
to anyone, anywhere.
What I mean exclusively is that what happened yesterday is a direct result
of US foreign policy. When the US bombs other nations in the name of
security, in the name of peace, or in the name of NATO, or in the name of
the UN, we call it justified. When we get bombed, we call it an act of
war. This is hypocrisy.
The people of this nation must send a clear and strong signal to our
"leaders" that they are putting us all in peril due to their questionable
and objectionable policies that have invited this attack.
If you are angry, contact your local leaders and ask them to account for
why we were attacked yesterday in such an egregious fashion. Put pressure
on them to in turn put pressure at the top eschelons of leadership to hold
them accountable for the atmosphere that has been created to have invoked
yesterday's attack.
The only reactions I saw from our "leaders" last night will only invite
more such attacks in the future, hence the cycle will continue, and we'll
all be doomed for sure. If we continue on the same path, we will always
live in fear.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone but it was not my intention. Like everyone
else, I was in shock and disbelief at what happened yesterday. I was
horrified. I am a natural born citizen of this country. This is my home.
I am an American. I was attacked too.
I am trying to point out the truth of the matter. I welcome your response
or criticisms, but please send them to me PRIVATELY.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
Like I said,
this is a reckoning.
It is only a reckoning in the eyes of a select few -- such
as those firing guns in the air in celebration of the many
dead. There is no way that the taking of thousands of
"innocent" lives balances out anything. Just as nothing
will be resolved when we inevitably do the same in
retaliation.
11 Sep
11 Sep
6:05 p.m.
Russ Blakeman wrote:
Fred I agree totally with this - people need to hold back on the anti-group
attitude until it's determined who actually did it.
Definitely.
Also once it's determined we have to keep
from including people born in the US of the same background from being
persecuted, like the German and Japanese immigrants and natives of that
group were done 60 yrs ago.
If you are referring to the Japanese being put into camps.... that is a
decision that had to be made. The Japanese have/had a secret society
called the Black Dragon that was working against the US. We had no idea
who was in the Black Dragon, but we had to stop its impact.
If your referring to a general paranoia or abuses of people of those
groups who have been living here, then I understand completely.
Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA
6:52 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
Actually one was a 757-200, the other was a 767. Only Channel 2 is working
here in NYC right now, phones are partially working, cell service is barely
working, bridges, tunnels and ferries are closed.
Something else which isn't sitting right is when the first tower collapsed,
it looked more like an implosion... the fire and explosion should'nt have
compromised the superstructure enough to collapse, and even the weight of
the above floors shouldn't have caused a "house of cards" effect like that,
seems more like an additional explosion may have been setoff.
Things are bad, really bad. It just doesn't seem real.
Curt
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Woyciesjes" <DAW(a)yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:22 AM
Subject: OT: World Trade crash...
I take it you all heard about the two 737s (?) hitting
the world trade
buildings...
one was possibly a hijacked airliner... each hit a seperate tower, I
believe...
--- David A Woyciesjes
--- C & IS Support Specialist
--- Yale University Press
--- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu
--- (203) 432-0953
--- ICQ # - 905818
7:42 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
Something else which isn't sitting right is when
the first tower collapsed,
it looked more like an implosion... the fire and explosion should'nt have
compromised the superstructure enough to collapse, and even the weight of
the above floors shouldn't have caused a "house of cards" effect like
that,
seems more like an additional explosion may have been setoff.
Curt, 10,000lbs of jet fuel would've caused something like that.
g.
8:04 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
There will be investigations in the speed that these buildings
came down. Like in Oklahoma there may have been construction
errors.
It also looks like a Towerbuilding that came down in the UK back in
the sixties. It was supported only by the walls of the structure and
a gas explosion took away a few walls. Subsequently part of the building
came down because of the weight of the collapsing concrete above
the explosion. many people lost their lives and building regulations
in the UK were tightened later on.
What happened with the WT-buildings-crash seems to have have
gone in a similar way, only on a grander scale.
Sipke de Wal
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://xgistor.ath.cx
----------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Buckle <geneb(a)deltasoft.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: World Trade crash...
Something else
which isn't sitting right is when the first tower collapsed,
it looked more like an implosion... the fire and explosion should'nt have
compromised the superstructure enough to collapse, and even the weight of
the above floors shouldn't have caused a "house of cards" effect like
that,
seems more like an additional explosion may have been setoff.
Curt, 10,000lbs of jet fuel would've caused something like that.
g.
1:09 p.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
Supposedly the building was deliberatly designed to take the impact of a 707
impact, it was part of the design specifications, and as such, they had
steel girders every 3 feet, as opposed to every 6-10 feet. What caused the
structure to fail was that the jets that hit it were all long haul jets that
had not gone very far, causing them to have full fuel loads, the heat caused
by the fuel fires reached 1500c (or so I have heard), causing the girders to
weaken, and then the thing went. All things considered, we are luck those
buildings held up that long.
Zach
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sipke de Wal" <sipke(a)wxs.nl>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: World Trade crash...
It also looks like a Towerbuilding that came down in
the UK back in
the sixties. It was supported only by the walls of the structure and
a gas explosion took away a few walls. Subsequently part of the building
came down because of the weight of the collapsing concrete above
the explosion. many people lost their lives and building regulations
in the UK were tightened later on.
10:49 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
Gene Buckle wrote:
When steel gets hot it loses its strength much faster than you would think.
The effect of the large fire was identical to a demolition crew taking out
all of the columns. Once the building started to move it was all over.
The second tower hit collapsed first due to the additional weight of the
structure above.
The second tower to be hit was hit lower and also, I fear, trapped many more
people above the fire making the death toll much higher.
Nightmare....
Can I wake up now???
Mike
Something else
which isn't sitting right is when the first tower collapsed,
it looked more like an implosion... the fire and explosion should'nt have
compromised the superstructure enough to collapse, and even the weight of
the above floors shouldn't have caused a "house of cards" effect like
that,
seems more like an additional explosion may have been setoff.
Curt, 10,000lbs of jet fuel would've caused something like that.
11:11 a.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
On Tue, 2001-09-11 at 18:49, Mike Drew wrote:
Gene Buckle wrote:
> > Something else which isn't sitting right is when the first tower
collapsed,
> > it looked more like an implosion... the fire and explosion should'nt
have
> > compromised the superstructure enough to collapse, and even the weight of
> > the above floors shouldn't have caused a "house of cards" effect
like that,
> > seems more like an additional explosion may have been setoff.
> >
> Curt, 10,000lbs of jet fuel would've caused something like that.
>
I agree that the leveling of the first building was odd. I'm not an
engineer, but the destruction from the crash *appeared* to be isolated
to the upper floors. Likewise, heat is going to travel upwards and
spread the fire to the upper floors faster - which is what appears to
have happened. There floors in between the area of destruction and the
bottom floors appeared to be sound - then the building spontaneously
collapsed. Very strange.
Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com)
When steel gets hot it loses its strength much faster than you would think.
The effect of the large fire was identical to a demolition crew taking out
all of the columns. Once the building started to move it was all over.
The second tower hit collapsed first due to the additional weight of the
structure above.
The second tower to be hit was hit lower and also, I fear, trapped many more
people above the fire making the death toll much higher.
Nightmare....
Can I wake up now???
Mike
12:04 p.m.
New subject: World Trade crash...
At 12:11 am 12/09/2001, you wrote:
I agree that the leveling of the first building was
odd. I'm not an
engineer, but the destruction from the crash *appeared* to be isolated
to the upper floors. Likewise, heat is going to travel upwards and
spread the fire to the upper floors faster - which is what appears to
have happened. There floors in between the area of destruction and the
bottom floors appeared to be sound - then the building spontaneously
collapsed. Very strange.
According to the BBC, the construction of these buildings meant that most
of the strength was in the outer skin.
I can only surmise that the heat softened what remained of the internal
structural stength following the crashes (and it is amazing the buildings
survived that much), and the weight of the falling top caused a chain reaction.
Regardless of the mechanics, this is a dreadful thing. I extend my
heartfelt sympathies to anyone directly or indirectly affected on the list,
and indeed beyond.
--
Cheers, Ade.
Be where it's at, B-Racing!
http://b-racing.co.uk
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