16 May
2001
16 May
'01
2:49 p.m.
This week had a fine start. I walked into a little computer shop which has
trays of old ISA cards and sometimes odd equipment which I can buy cheaply.
This monday, they had a slightly familiar-looking box on top of a large
shipment of PCs. A HP 9000/300! When I asked them what it would cost, they
were surprised that they could even charge money for it, and let me have it
for 50 crowns. My pleasure. Once I had bought it, though, I though that
9000/300 was a suspiciously low number. Wasn't that some kind of 68010 based
machine? And why would such a machine have two Ethernet NICs? It really semed
like a waste, but on the underground ride how, I pulled out the big board with
all the ports, which seemed notably shinier and newer than the NIC above, and
found that it had a 68040. I thus deducted that it must be a 9000/380. Has
this machine been upgraded, or did HP simply not bother to identify their
machines any closer than the series (in this case 9000/300)?
In any case, it came without keyboard, and I read that in order to switch it
over to serial terminal mode, one would have to perform a certain manoeuvre
via the keyboard. Bloody well thought out, HP! Is there no way to use a serial
terminal without any HIL keyboard involved?
The machine starts up and beeps a little. It's got not drives installed, but
there's a 50-pin "Centronics" connector marked SCSI/FS-HPIB. What is
FS-HPIB?
Doesn't sound like anything I'd like to feed into my SCSI devices.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
A Spanish MSX Group "Matra" visited to this Fair. I lent Spanish stand to
them. They showed and did Promotion play of SEX BOMB BUNNY. And this Game has
tema song of Majingar-Z! Why they know Japanese TV animation?
K. Ikeda, MSX-Print
17 May
17 May
8:28 p.m.
Hi Iggy,
I don't think it was upgraded. I have the 310, the lowest in the
series - the one with the 68010 CPU. My box also says "HP 9000 300", not
"310". There is hardware information at:
http://www.blobulent.com/hp300/FAQ/rossspon/hp300faq.htm
Just today I completed this system by finding an HP-IB cable in the
trash. I started with the box, which has video, serial and HP-IB. Then I
found an HP-IB drive unit. Then came a monitor that had the requisite BNC
connectors, and then some BNC cabling. The ROM on bootup reports its
version, the CPU, and the addresses of interfaces. Have not tried the
drive yet.
Good luck,
Edwin
At 12:49 AM 5/17/2001 +0100, you wrote:
found that it had a 68040. I thus deducted that it must
be a 9000/380. Has
this machine been upgraded, or did HP simply not bother to identify their
machines any closer than the series (in this case 9000/300)?
The machine starts up and beeps a little. It's got not drives installed, but
there's a 50-pin "Centronics" connector marked SCSI/FS-HPIB. What is
FS-HPIB?
Fast Speed - HP-IB???
Doesn't sound like anything I'd like to feed
into my SCSI devices.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
18 May
18 May
10:05 a.m.
Edwin P. Groot skrev:
Hi Iggy,
I don't think it was upgraded. I have the 310, the lowest in the
series - the one with the 68010 CPU. My box also says "HP 9000 300", not
"310". There is hardware information at:
http://www.blobulent.com/hp300/FAQ/rossspon/hp300faq.htm
I've wgetted (wgot?) that FAQ already, very useful. =)
Just today I completed this system by finding an
HP-IB cable in the
trash. I started with the box, which has video, serial and HP-IB. Then I
found an HP-IB drive unit. Then came a monitor that had the requisite BNC
connectors, and then some BNC cabling. The ROM on bootup reports its
version, the CPU, and the addresses of interfaces. Have not tried the
drive yet.
Hmm, perhaps I should have picked up some of those free HP-IB cables now that
I think of it. I have a friend who's got a double HP brand 3,5" drive (those
drives are really vintage!) with what seems like a HPIB interface. Or is that
GPIB? I'm blissfully ignorant regarding those systems.
As for BNC monitors, I haven't got any, but I came up with a solution which
might work: I've got several VGA->BNC cables, and with a gender changer, it
should plug into the male end of a VGA monitor. =)
At least as long as it supports SOG (sync on green)...
So tell me, how does a 310 feel? I was quite relieved to find that I had a
380, but I suppose a 310 could be a quaint experience as well.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
Remember:
- On the Amiga, you can make a way.
- On Linux, there is a way, you just don't know it.
- On Windows, there is no way and you know it.
Aaron Digulla
17 May
17 May
9:59 p.m.
On Thu, May 17, 2001 at 12:49:25AM +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote:
found that it had a 68040. I thus deducted that it
must be a 9000/380. Has
this machine been upgraded, or did HP simply not bother to identify their
machines any closer than the series (in this case 9000/300)?
If you look how easily you can pull out the board then it actually makes
sense. Just provide a box with DIO-II/I slots and basically you can build
anything from 310 to 380 inside. If the main board looks like this:
http://www.tec.puv.fi/~s99137/kuvat/380takaa2.jpg
http://www.tec.puv.fi/~s99137/kuvat/380takaa.jpg
Then you have a 380. The machine in those crummy pictures has a DIO-I
expansion cab.
In any case, it came without keyboard, and I read that in order to switch it
over to serial terminal mode, one would have to perform a certain manoeuvre
via the keyboard. Bloody well thought out, HP! Is there no way to use a serial
terminal without any HIL keyboard involved?
There might be a way. Start out by removing the framebuffer and then
try some serial magic.
The machine starts up and beeps a little. It's got
not drives installed, but
there's a 50-pin "Centronics" connector marked SCSI/FS-HPIB. What is
FS-HPIB?
Doesn't sound like anything I'd like to feed into my SCSI devices.
The machine can do Fast HP-IB or SCSI from the mainboard. The SCSI connector
goes directly to the main board via a flat cable but the FS-HPIB has some
electronics just behind the connector. I'd guess you have the SCSI-version.
It's a lovely machine btw.
--
jht
18 May
18 May
10:19 a.m.
jarkko.teppo skrev:
On Thu, May 17, 2001 at 12:49:25AM +0100, Iggy Drougge
wrote:
> found that it had a 68040. I thus deducted that it must be a 9000/380. Has
> this machine been upgraded, or did HP simply not bother to identify their
> machines any closer than the series (in this case 9000/300)?
If you look how easily you can pull out the board then
it actually makes
sense. Just provide a box with DIO-II/I slots and basically you can build
anything from 310 to 380 inside. If the main board looks like this:
Then you have a 380. The machine in those crummy
pictures has a DIO-I
expansion cab.
So does mine, if that's the card with the ugly card-edge connector into which
the additional LANCE board is plugged.
> In any case, it came without keyboard, and I read
that in order to switch
> it over to serial terminal mode, one would have to perform a certain
> manoeuvre via the keyboard. Bloody well thought out, HP! Is there no way to
> use a serial terminal without any HIL keyboard involved?
There might be a way. Start out by removing the
framebuffer and then
try some serial magic.
Ah, so it's the same route as with the DECstation. Great.
> The machine starts up and beeps a little. It's
got not drives installed,
> but there's a 50-pin "Centronics" connector marked SCSI/FS-HPIB. What
is
> FS-HPIB? Doesn't sound like anything I'd like to feed into my SCSI devices.
The machine can do Fast HP-IB or SCSI from the
mainboard. The SCSI connector
goes directly to the main board via a flat cable but the FS-HPIB has some
electronics just behind the connector. I'd guess you have the SCSI-version.
It's plugged straight in. Good for me.
Now, should I just run NetBSD or is HPUX any more sufferable on the 380 than
on the 832?
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
19 May
19 May
2:15 a.m.
Quoting Iggy Drougge <optimus(a)canit.se>se>:
jarkko.teppo skrev:
The expansion cab is the second cabinet with DIO-I slots in it.
The processor card is DIO-II and the extra lance card is DIO-I.
At the moment I have 3 * DIO-II and 5 * DIO-I. I'm also thinking
about expanding the expander, although it might slow things down
due to shared interrupts. We'll see. There also exist DIO-II to
DIO-I converters, you might have one of those.
Then you have a 380. The machine in those crummy
pictures has a DIO-I
expansion cab.
So does mine, if that's the card with the ugly card-edge connector into
which
the additional LANCE board is plugged.
It's plugged straight in. Good for me.
Depends on if you have a lot of HP-IB disks. I have, I want more :)
Now, should I just run NetBSD or is HPUX any more sufferable on the 380
than
on the 832?
Depends if you want to use it for anything useful or not.
IMHO a 380 is one the best 300-series machine there is (well, 385..)
It's fast, can take a lot of memory and if you've got some kit it's
a joy to expand. I've had at one point 13 hard drives + a big bunch
of tape drives from 9-tracks to 9144/9145 + DATs. Dual framebuffers
are cool if you've got 'em and so on.
I'd suggest you give HP-UX a go and then install NetBSD. You could try
one of the 4.3-reno=> (?) versions too.
--
jht
7:21 a.m.
On 19 May, Jarkko Teppo wrote:
I'd suggest you give HP-UX a go and then install
NetBSD. You could try
one of the 4.3-reno=> (?) versions too.
With the help of an other *ix machine
for diskless booting, it is easy
to get NetBSD running on a hp300. Once NetBSD is running it is easy to
get 4.4BSD on a disk. I used a diskless NetBSD setup to get 4.4BSD-Lite
on my hp300 433t. I simply disklabeled / newfsed / mounted the disk with
the NetBSD tools, copied 4.4BSD from MKM's CSRG CDs to it, instaled the
bootblocks and it did boot. My next project in this area is getting
4.3BSD-Reno on my hp300 345 and my MicroVAX 3800.
--
tschuess,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz
3:37 p.m.
jkunz skrev:
Why 4.4BSD? Does it offer any advantage over NetBSD?
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
- Hur tar du bilder fr?n TVn?
- Jag anv?nder mig av en digitalkamera och fixar s? det blir m?rkt i rummet
och kn?pper sedan bilden.
- Hur g?r du dina mp3or?
- Jag kopplar ett par h?rlurar till TVn, s?tter en mic framf?r h?rlurarna och
spelar in med valfritt inspelningsprogram.
Jenny Hannula
On 19 May, Jarkko Teppo wrote:
I'd
suggest you give HP-UX a go and then install NetBSD. You could try
one of the 4.3-reno=> (?) versions too.
With the help of an other *ix machine
for diskless booting, it is easy
to get NetBSD running on a hp300. Once NetBSD is running it is easy to
get 4.4BSD on a disk. I used a diskless NetBSD setup to get 4.4BSD-Lite
on my hp300 433t. I simply disklabeled / newfsed / mounted the disk with
the NetBSD tools, copied 4.4BSD from MKM's CSRG CDs to it, instaled the
bootblocks and it did boot. My next project in this area is getting
4.3BSD-Reno on my hp300 345 and my MicroVAX 3800.
20 May
20 May
12:04 a.m.
On 20 May, Iggy Drougge wrote:
[installing NetBSD or 4.4BSD or 4.3BSD-Reno on a hp300]
Why 4.4BSD? Does it offer any advantage over NetBSD?
It is older. ;-)
It allways depends on your needs.
- If you want a modern *ix OS, NetBSD is what you want. NetBSD is a
nice, pure and small but complete Unix. It is my faforit OS.
- If you want the OS this machine was build with, HP-UX is wat you
want. HP-UX is a bit, hmm? I don't like it that much.
- If you are interrested in the history of software, und / or you are
a BSD Unix geek like me, some old 4.x BSD is what you want. I have
several (ca. 30) *ix machines around here, most of them running
NetBSD. So it is very interresting to work with some historic BSD
releases on machines of the same vintage to see how things evolved.
An other reason could be that NetBSD (1.5) got a bit "bloated" and it
does not run that fast on a slower machine like a MicroVAX II or
hp320. But that does'nt bother you if you own a hp380.
--
tschuess,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz
3:11 p.m.
jkunz skrev:
On 20 May, Iggy Drougge wrote:
[installing NetBSD or 4.4BSD or 4.3BSD-Reno on a
hp300]
Not mine, but I've installed it on lots of machines. It's really an odd habit
of mine, I collect the most disparate computers, then make them as similar as
possible running the same OS.
Why 4.4BSD? Does it offer any advantage over
NetBSD?
It is older. ;-)
It allways depends on your needs.
- If you want a modern *ix OS, NetBSD is what you want. NetBSD is a
nice, pure and small but complete Unix. It is my faforit OS. - If you want the OS this machine was build with,
HP-UX is wat you
want. HP-UX is a bit, hmm? I don't like it that much.
I don't like what I've seen of it either, but I suppose that its hardware
support is better than NetBSD.
- If you are interrested in the history of software,
und / or you are
a BSD Unix geek like me, some old 4.x BSD is what you want. I have
several (ca. 30) *ix machines around here, most of them running
NetBSD. So it is very interresting to work with some historic BSD
releases on machines of the same vintage to see how things evolved.
An other reason could be that NetBSD (1.5) got a bit "bloated" and it
does not run that fast on a slower machine like a MicroVAX II or
hp320. But that does'nt bother you if you own a hp380.
I supposed that NetBSD would be almost identical with (to?) 4.4BSD.
I'm aware of the 1.5 bloat problem, and I think it's a serious matter for a
multiplatform OS like NetBSD. The pmax port has been contaminated as well.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
well, maybe if it contained ChibiChibi-JarJar
pairing..<seg>
Okay, so now I'm thinking about a threesome between
ChibiChibi, Jar-Jar and
Pikachu. You bastard.
A. Jones
21 May
21 May
10:51 a.m.
On 21 May, Iggy Drougge wrote:
Different people, different preferences. (Said the ape and bit into the
soap. ;-) )
- If you want
a modern *ix OS, NetBSD is what you want. NetBSD is a
nice, pure and small but complete Unix. It is my faforit OS.
Not mine,
but I've installed it on lots of machines.
It's really an odd habit
of mine, I collect the most disparate computers, then make them as similar as
possible running the same OS.
The same for me. It is amusing to se the same OS on a
VAX, or Sun 3 and
on an Alpha or the latest XX GHz hyper wintel crap PC. (And to see how
reliable a 15 years old *ix machine is and how many PeeCees fail in the
first 15 days or even 15 hours of there life.)
[HP-UX <=> NetBSD]
I suppose that its hardware support is better than
NetBSD.
Of course.
I supposed that NetBSD would be almost identical with
(to?) 4.4BSD.
More or less. From the users point of view the systems are very
similar. But especially inside the Kernel there are a lot of changes.
I'm aware of the 1.5 bloat problem, and I think
it's a serious matter for a
multiplatform OS like NetBSD. The pmax port has been contaminated as well.
This is
the way life goes. NetBSD is a living system. It grows, new
features like IPv6 (that will become mandatory), wscons (that is
reasonible), RAIDframe, Softdeps ... are "bloating" the system. This is
the price, that we have to pay for the improved functionality. I accept
that this may be too much for the oldest machines im my collection. I
don't expect from 2.11BSD on my PDP11 to support NFS, so do I accept
that NetBSD 1.5 is a bit "slow" on a MicroVAX II with 5MB RAM. But the
"bloat" problem is known to the NetBSD folks and a result is the
tech-perform mailing list...
--
tsch??,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
3:08 p.m.
jkunz skrev:
Different people, different preferences. (Said the ape and bit into the
soap. ;-) )
Of course, 15 year-old PCs won't fail either. The machines which did fail in
their first fifteen days are long gone, and that goes for all platforms.
Why should IPv6 be mandatory? Isn't that supposed to be backwards-compatible
as far as end clients are concerned, and isn't it my business what I run on my
network?
And why shouldn't one expect NFS support from 2.2BSD?
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
Schont die Sockel, wenn ihr die Denkm?ler st?rzt. Sie k?nnten noch gebraucht
werden.
--- Stanislaw Jerzy Lec
On 21 May, Iggy Drougge wrote:
- If you want a modern *ix OS, NetBSD is what you
want. NetBSD is a
nice, pure and small but complete Unix. It is my faforit OS.
Not mine,
but I've
installed it on lots of machines. It's really an odd habit
of mine, I collect the most disparate computers, then make them as similar
as possible running the same OS.
The same for me. It is amusing to se the same OS
on a VAX, or Sun 3 and
on an Alpha or the latest XX GHz hyper wintel crap PC. (And to see how
reliable a 15 years old *ix machine is and how many PeeCees fail in the
first 15 days or even 15 hours of there life.) I'm aware
of the 1.5 bloat problem, and I think it's a serious matter for a
multiplatform OS like NetBSD. The pmax port has been contaminated as well.
This is
the way life goes. NetBSD is a living system. It grows, new
features like IPv6 (that will become mandatory), wscons (that is
reasonible), RAIDframe, Softdeps ... are "bloating" the system. This is
the price, that we have to pay for the improved functionality. I accept
that this may be too much for the oldest machines im my collection. I
don't expect from 2.11BSD on my PDP11 to support NFS, so do I accept
that NetBSD 1.5 is a bit "slow" on a MicroVAX II with 5MB RAM. But the
"bloat" problem is known to the NetBSD folks and a result is the
tech-perform mailing list...
8:46 p.m.
On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 01:08:03AM +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote:
Way OT but as a fellow NAT-suffering european you ought to be cheering and
jumping for IPv6. As always, your network is your network and I don't think
that anybody cares if you ran the whole thing on top of serial muxes with
multidrop slip encapsulating chaosnet and XNS but I want IPv6 on everything
that I have:) Actually I just played my first ever IPv6 Quake-game last week
with end-to-end native v6 only. I sucked.. and I was the only player.
jkunz skrev:
Of course, 15 year-old PCs won't fail either. The machines which did fail in
their first fifteen days are long gone, and that goes for all platforms.
That's quite true. Though in the case of HP I don't think that they've ever
failed:) The *best* computers I've seen/had/used so far. Not like Sparcs with
those pesky idprom problems (I've got a 330 in need of surgery).
This is the way
life goes. NetBSD is a living system. It grows, new
features like IPv6 (that will become mandatory), wscons (that is
reasonible), RAIDframe, Softdeps ... are "bloating" the system. This is
Why should IPv6 be mandatory? Isn't that supposed to be backwards-compatible
as far as end clients are concerned, and isn't it my business what I run on my
network? And why shouldn't one expect NFS support from
2.2BSD?
hmm, the gains aren't worth it ?
--
jht
22 May
22 May
4:34 a.m.
jarkko.teppo skrev:
On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 01:08:03AM +0100, Iggy Drougge
wrote:
> jkunz skrev:
>
> Of course, 15 year-old PCs won't fail either. The machines which did fail
> in their first fifteen days are long gone, and that goes for all platforms.
That's quite true. Though in the case of HP I
don't think that they've ever
failed:) The *best* computers I've seen/had/used so far. Not like Sparcs with
those pesky idprom problems (I've got a 330 in need of surgery).
Tell that to the braindamaged ROM in my 380. Shame on you, HP!
> >This is the way life goes. NetBSD is a living
system. It grows, new
> >features like IPv6 (that will become mandatory), wscons (that is
> >reasonible), RAIDframe, Softdeps ... are "bloating" the system. This
is
>
> Why should IPv6 be mandatory? Isn't that supposed to be
> backwards-compatible as far as end clients are concerned, and isn't it my
> business what I run on my network?
Way OT but as a fellow NAT-suffering european you ought
to be cheering and
jumping for IPv6. As always, your network is your network and I don't think
that anybody cares if you ran the whole thing on top of serial muxes with
multidrop slip encapsulating chaosnet and XNS but I want IPv6 on everything
that I have:) Actually I just played my first ever IPv6 Quake-game last week
with end-to-end native v6 only. I sucked.. and I was the only player.
I've never suffered NAT, I just suffer a modem and high telephony costs.
What I worry about is whether IPv6 will work on all my machines. Then I
worry that IP numbers will be too long for me to remember.
> And why shouldn't one expect NFS support from
2.2BSD?
hmm, the gains aren't worth it ?
Aren't the advantages of NFS apparent?
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
Sagt, ist noch ein Land, au?er Deutschland, wo man die Nase eher r?mpfen lernt
als putzen?
--- Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
7:39 a.m.
Quoting Iggy Drougge <optimus(a)canit.se>se>:
I love NFS as much as the next guy but if you start adding stuff
like NFS, why not have vnodes (well, you better have!) and once
you have vnodes why not start supporting different file systems...
A bit much for a PDP :)
So choice is good. My current testing gateway to the internet is a
486-75MHz, 8/500MB with NetBSD-1.5 and Lucent WLAN card.
The basestation is somewhere within 1 km. I'm rambling, better stop.
To get back to classiccmp, I'm going to check out a pile of Altos
machines tomorrow, Altos 686 and other models. All had their hard
drives ripped out.
--
jht
jarkko.teppo skrev:
Tell that to the braindamaged ROM in my 380. Shame on you, HP!
In what way it's braindamaged ?
I've never suffered NAT, I just suffer a modem and high telephony
costs.
What I worry about is whether IPv6 will work on all my machines. Then
I
worry that IP numbers will be too long for me to remember.
Without getting into details it's an interesting experience trying
to get a netblock these days. Most likely you can lease a /32 for
kazillion bucks a month. RIPE isn't softening up with IPv6 however,
if you want a block of your own you need to be peering with three
other providers. Life's hard.
> And why shouldn't one expect NFS support
from 2.2BSD?
hmm, the gains aren't worth it ?
Aren't the advantages of NFS apparent?
4:12 p.m.
Jarkko Teppo skrev:
Quoting Iggy Drougge <optimus(a)canit.se>se>:
> jarkko.teppo skrev:
>
> Tell that to the braindamaged ROM in my 380. Shame on you, HP!
In what way it's braindamaged ?
It won't use a serial console, unless told so via a HIL keyboard. If I had a
HIL keyboard, I would not need a serial console.
> I've never suffered NAT, I just suffer a modem
and high telephony
> costs.
> What I worry about is whether IPv6 will work on all my machines. Then
> I
> worry that IP numbers will be too long for me to remember.
Without getting into details it's an interesting
experience trying
to get a netblock these days. Most likely you can lease a /32 for
kazillion bucks a month. RIPE isn't softening up with IPv6 however,
if you want a block of your own you need to be peering with three
other providers. Life's hard.
I really object to how everything costs and arm and a leg on today's net.
Unless it's financed via ads and popup windows, which is no better.
> >> And why shouldn't one expect NFS
support from 2.2BSD?
>
> >hmm, the gains aren't worth it ?
>
> Aren't the advantages of NFS apparent?
I love NFS as much as the next guy but if you start
adding stuff
like NFS, why not have vnodes (well, you better have!) and once
you have vnodes why not start supporting different file systems...
A bit much for a PDP :)
Why not support different file systems? And what is a vnode?
So choice is good. My current testing gateway to the
internet is a
486-75MHz, 8/500MB with NetBSD-1.5 and Lucent WLAN card.
The basestation is somewhere within 1 km. I'm rambling, better stop.
I've got some metres of "broadband" above my door. One day, it will go into
my
flat. OTOH, I don't see any reason to use all that fancy firewalling or NAT
stuff.
To get back to classiccmp, I'm going to check out a
pile of Altos
machines tomorrow, Altos 686 and other models. All had their hard
drives ripped out.
What is an Altos?
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
"Auf Sparc-Maschinen ist Linux weit weniger gut. Auf Maschinen mit sun4
Architektur ist NetBSD etwa 30% schneller. Wer auf so einer Maschine
Linux faehrt tut es aus ideologischen Gruenden oder kennt nichts anderes."
Aus: de.comp.os.unix.misc, "Was ist schneller?"
8:34 p.m.
On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:12:24AM +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote:
You'd better ask some resident PDP/2.11BSD guru but I can think
of the (relatively) small address space, segmentation and the like.
And at least I prefer running programs rather than just operating
systems on my machines:)
vnodes were originally an idea/implementation(?) by Sun:
http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/355180.html
Basically the vnode layer sits between the lower filesystem layers and
system calls. Gives you coherent access to different filesystems.
Jarkko Teppo skrev:
It won't use a serial console, unless told so via a HIL keyboard. If I had a
HIL keyboard, I would not need a serial console.
Weird. I've *always* though that it would go to serial if you remove
the keyboard and/or the framebuffer. If I don't connect a HIL
keyboard on mine it prints out Blaablaa blaa press R for local console.
RS-232 is "remote console".
I love NFS as much as the next guy but if you
start adding stuff
like NFS, why not have vnodes (well, you better have!) and once
you have vnodes why not start supporting different file systems...
A bit much for a PDP :)
Why not support different file systems? And what is a vnode?
What is an Altos?
I'm going to find out:)
--
jht
23 May
23 May
5:39 a.m.
jarkko.teppo skrev:
On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:12:24AM +0100, Iggy Drougge
wrote:
> Jarkko Teppo skrev:
>
> It won't use a serial console, unless told so via a HIL keyboard. If I had
> a HIL keyboard, I would not need a serial console.
Weird. I've *always* though that it would go to
serial if you remove
the keyboard and/or the framebuffer. If I don't connect a HIL
keyboard on mine it prints out Blaablaa blaa press R for local console.
RS-232 is "remote console".
At least the NetBSD FAQ says that one has to go via the keyboard for the 380.
Removing the framebuffer yielded nothing. I suppose I should have a go with a
real terminal the next time.
> >I love NFS as much as the next guy but if you
start adding stuff
> >like NFS, why not have vnodes (well, you better have!) and once
> >you have vnodes why not start supporting different file systems...
> >A bit much for a PDP :)
>
> Why not support different file systems? And what is a vnode?
You'd better ask some resident PDP/2.11BSD guru but
I can think
of the (relatively) small address space, segmentation and the like.
And at least I prefer running programs rather than just operating
systems on my machines:)
LOL, there's a difference between us. Most of my computers perform no useful
tasks at all.
vnodes were originally an idea/implementation(?) by
Sun:
http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/355180.html
Basically the vnode layer sits between the lower filesystem layers and
system calls. Gives you coherent access to different filesystems.
My, isn't that an *hrm* novel, interesting and new-fangled idea.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
Among the best Swedish achievements are those that closely combine social and
architectural developments, such as the carefully planned new towns built in
recent years outside Stockholm: V?llingby and Farsta.
J.M. Richards, Modern Architecture
5:06 a.m.
Iggy,
I have some HP-HIL keyboards. Contact me off-line if you still need one.
Joe
At 02:12 AM 5/23/01 +0100, you wrote:
Jarkko Teppo skrev:
Quoting Iggy Drougge <optimus(a)canit.se>se>:
> jarkko.teppo skrev:
>
> Tell that to the braindamaged ROM in my 380. Shame on you, HP!
In what way it's braindamaged ?
It won't use a serial console, unless told so via a HIL keyboard. If I had a
HIL keyboard, I would not need a serial console.
> I've never suffered NAT, I just suffer a
modem and high telephony
> costs.
> What I worry about is whether IPv6 will work on all my machines. Then
> I
> worry that IP numbers will be too long for me to remember.
Without getting into details it's an
interesting experience trying
to get a netblock these days. Most likely you can lease a /32 for
kazillion bucks a month. RIPE isn't softening up with IPv6 however,
if you want a block of your own you need to be peering with three
other providers. Life's hard.
I really object to how everything costs and arm and a leg on today's net.
Unless it's financed via ads and popup windows, which is no better.
> >> And why shouldn't one expect NFS
support from 2.2BSD?
>
> >hmm, the gains aren't worth it ?
>
> Aren't the advantages of NFS apparent?
I love NFS as much as the next guy but if you
start adding stuff
like NFS, why not have vnodes (well, you better have!) and once
you have vnodes why not start supporting different file systems...
A bit much for a PDP :)
Why not support different file systems? And what is a vnode?
So choice is good. My current testing gateway to
the internet is a
486-75MHz, 8/500MB with NetBSD-1.5 and Lucent WLAN card.
The basestation is somewhere within 1 km. I'm rambling, better stop.
I've got some metres of "broadband" above my door. One day, it will go into
my
flat. OTOH, I don't see any reason to use all that fancy firewalling or NAT
stuff.
To get back to classiccmp, I'm going to check
out a pile of Altos
machines tomorrow, Altos 686 and other models. All had their hard
drives ripped out.
What is an Altos?
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
"Auf Sparc-Maschinen ist Linux weit weniger gut. Auf Maschinen mit sun4
Architektur ist NetBSD etwa 30% schneller. Wer auf so einer Maschine
Linux faehrt tut es aus ideologischen Gruenden oder kennt nichts anderes."
Aus: de.comp.os.unix.misc, "Was ist schneller?" 
22 May
22 May
6:45 a.m.
New subject: apollo 425t
Hi,
Anybody knows a source for the memory for this machines ?
I got one, but without any :-(
cheers & thanks,
emanuel
7:47 a.m.
New subject: apollo 425t
These get scrapped fairly regularly at a couple places near me, so thats
one way memory could be found, but the scrapper isn't cheap.
8:33 a.m.
New subject: apollo 425t
On 22 May, emanuel stiebler wrote:
[mem modules]
They look like ps/2, but I'm not sure :-(
PS/2 like in a 4xxt??? The 4xxt uses the same "T" shaped RAM modules
like the later hp300 machines. Ask Marc if he has some spares. He is
usualy well equiped with hp300 stuff.
--
tsch??,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
9:27 a.m.
On 22 May, Iggy Drougge wrote:
Of course, 15 year-old PCs won't fail either. The
machines which did fail in
their first fifteen days are long gone, and that goes for all platforms.
I ment:
The percentage of systems that fails in the first 15 days of
life is in the PC area much higher than in the area of "real" hardware.
Most PC hardware ever made is low quality. Except e.g. IBM MCA
machines. (Buhu. My PS/2 70P is broken. :-( )
Why should IPv6 be mandatory?
Is is not yet, but
it will be in future.
Isn't that supposed to be backwards-compatible
as far as end clients are concerned,
and isn't it my business what I run on my network?
Yes. But if you want to
connect your network to the world, you will
make the experience that IPv4 addresses are a rare resource. You can do
things like NAT, but the time will come when the IPv4 addres space is
exhausted.
And why shouldn't one expect NFS support from
2.2BSD?
Because he is newbie and expects from every *ix to speak NFS?
Schont die Sockel, wenn ihr die Denkm?ler st?rzt.
Sie k?nnten noch gebraucht werden.
:-)
--
tsch??,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
19 May
19 May
3:35 p.m.
Jarkko Teppo skrev:
Quoting Iggy Drougge <optimus(a)canit.se>se>:
> jarkko.teppo skrev:
> >http://www.tec.puv.fi/~s99137/kuvat/380takaa2.jpg
> >http://www.tec.puv.fi/~s99137/kuvat/380takaa.jpg
>
> >Then you have a 380. The machine in those crummy pictures has a DIO-I
> >expansion cab.
>
> So does mine, if that's the card with the ugly card-edge connector into
> which
> the additional LANCE board is plugged.
The expansion cab is the second cabinet with DIO-I
slots in it.
The processor card is DIO-II and the extra lance card is DIO-I.
At the moment I have 3 * DIO-II and 5 * DIO-I. I'm also thinking
about expanding the expander, although it might slow things down
due to shared interrupts. We'll see. There also exist DIO-II to
DIO-I converters, you might have one of those.
PCI runs on shared interrupts and seems fast enough to me.
> It's plugged straight in. Good for me.
Depends on if you have a lot of HP-IB disks. I have, I
want more :)
HPIB disks? Can't say that I've seen a single one in my entire life.
> Now, should I just run NetBSD or is HPUX any more
sufferable on the 380
> than
> on the 832?
Depends if you want to use it for anything useful or
not.
I really can't imagine either system doing anything useful, since I'm
essentially a UNIX hater, so that is of secondary importance. I just can't
deal with HP-UX 10.something on the 822, it's so dreadfully slow, and then
it's got binaries cluttered all over /etc for some very odd reason.
IMHO a 380 is one the best 300-series machine there is
(well, 385..)
But then all that would require is a new crystal, right?
It's fast, can take a lot of memory and if
you've got some kit it's
a joy to expand. I've had at one point 13 hard drives + a big bunch
of tape drives from 9-tracks to 9144/9145 + DATs. Dual framebuffers
are cool if you've got 'em and so on.
I'd suggest you give HP-UX a go and then install
NetBSD. You could try
one of the 4.3-reno=> (?) versions too.
I don't suppose HP have got any hobbyist programme?
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
Se pensate che alcune sigle dei cartoni in Italia siano bruttine, ascoltatevi
quella di Kenshiro in francese ("Ken le survivant")... Non saprei se sia pi?
trash questa o quella di Mazinga Z in Francese...
Nicola Solati om den franska signaturen till Hokut? no Ken
18 May
18 May
3:16 a.m.
At 12:49 AM 5/17/01 +0100, Iggy wrote:
This week had a fine start. I walked into a little
computer shop which has
trays of old ISA cards and sometimes odd equipment which I can buy cheaply.
This monday, they had a slightly familiar-looking box on top of a large
shipment of PCs. A HP 9000/300! When I asked them what it would cost, they
were surprised that they could even charge money for it, and let me have it
for 50 crowns. My pleasure. Once I had bought it, though, I though that
9000/300 was a suspiciously low number. Wasn't that some kind of 68010 based
machine?
The low end ones are 68010 based but the more powerfull models of 300
series use the other more powerfull 680x0 CPUs and lots more memory.
And why would such a machine have two Ethernet NICs? It
really semed
like a waste, but on the underground ride how, I pulled out the big board with
all the ports, which seemed notably shinier and newer than the NIC above, and
found that it had a 68040. I thus deducted that it must be a 9000/380. Has
this machine been upgraded, or did HP simply not bother to identify their
machines any closer than the series (in this case 9000/300)?
No, they usually just mark them as 300s on the case. However if you
look inside the grill on the back that covers the power supply you'll see
the actual model number.
In any case, it came without keyboard, and I read that
in order to switch it
over to serial terminal mode, one would have to perform a certain manoeuvre
via the keyboard. Bloody well thought out, HP! Is there no way to use a serial
terminal without any HIL keyboard involved?
I'm not sure I understand your question but usually you can use a
serial terminal connected to serial port one or you can use the HP_HIL
keyboard and a monitor. You usually have to change a switch inside to tell
it which to use. I think one of the Net-BSD websites tells you how to do
it. Other than that, you'll need the HP_HIL keyboard. At least the HIL
keyboards are standard. It could be worse, they could have made a different
keyboard for every model!
The machine starts up and beeps a little. It's got
not drives installed, but
there's a 50-pin "Centronics" connector marked SCSI/FS-HPIB. What is
FS-HPIB?
I don't know. The 380 is a bit beyond me. I try to stick to the 200
series and the lesser machines and they don't use that. There are some
sites on the net that talk about the 300s and identify the various cards in
them and tell how to convert them to Net-BSD so you can probably find some
usefull into there.
Joe
Joe
8466
days inactive
8473
days old
26 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
emu＠ecubics.com -
epgroot＠ucdavis.edu -
jarkko.teppo＠er-grp.com -
jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de -
lemay＠cs.umn.edu -
mikeford＠socal.rr.com -
optimus＠canit.se -
rigdonj＠intellistar.net