14 Apr
1999
14 Apr
'99
4:08 p.m.
In a message dated 14/04/99 16:32:06 Eastern Daylight Time, max82(a)surfree.com
writes:
<< Actually, you might see 486s also. I spent half an hour last saturday
smashing all kinds of computers, from PS/2 Model 30 to DEC 486. They were
being trashed, and we decided to have some fun while we were at it. We
stomped on them till they were practically pancakes (the drives had been
removed). It was quite fun :) >>
that was a rather stupid thing to do. All of those computers could have been
of some use, if not to just be salvaged for parts to revive other computers.
14 Apr
14 Apr
4:38 p.m.
Date sent: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:08:06 EDT
Send reply to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
From: SUPRDAVE(a)aol.com
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey!
In a message dated 14/04/99 16:32:06 Eastern Daylight
Time,
max82(a)surfree.com writes:
<< Actually, you might see 486s also. I spent half an hour last saturday
smashing all kinds of computers, from PS/2 Model 30 to DEC 486. They were
Snip!
that was a rather stupid thing to do. All of those computers could have
been of some use, if not to just be salvaged for parts to revive other
computers.
Suprdave IS Dead Right.
Remember, we asked your truly for odd parts from those?
And, they still have useful functions as other uses and parts.
I suggest:
Come back and pick out good parts out of remains for useful parts
and rescue parts and drives out of "unsmashed" computers.
Thats the reason. :-(
Wizard
4:44 p.m.
On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 jpero(a)cgocable.net wrote:
I suggest:
Come back and pick out good parts out of remains for useful parts
and rescue parts and drives out of "unsmashed" computers.
I'd be quite willing to set up a 'part broadcasting center' for a certain
fee....
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power
6:01 p.m.
Date sent: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:44:21 -0400 (EDT)
Send reply to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
From: Max Eskin <max82(a)surfree.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey!
Originally to: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 jpero(a)cgocable.net wrote:
Max,
THIS is the place to put this info for everyone to look at that is what
all is for! Your school could make bit of money for other events by
selling them for few dollars each roughly and everyone pays
shipping.
I had to rescue an Everex Step 386/25 with yellow diagnostic
display and few other "useful" junk. Very interesting features
designed into that everex thing: 256K cache, can handle up to
64MB and few things in it. That "junk" came from a douated
government stuff piled high in LARGE amounts enough to fill at
least 2 full length trucks at high school who have to toss them what
left out too after finished their cherrypicking them for their uses.
Wizard
I suggest:
Come back and pick out good parts out of remains for useful parts
and rescue parts and drives out of "unsmashed" computers.
I'd be quite willing to set up a 'part broadcasting center' for a certain
fee.... --Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is
Power
8:20 p.m.
On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 jpero(a)cgocable.net wrote:
I had to rescue an Everex Step 386/25 with yellow
diagnostic
display and few other "useful" junk. Very interesting features
designed into that everex thing: 256K cache, can handle up to
64MB and few things in it. That "junk" came from a douated
government stuff piled high in LARGE amounts enough to fill at
least 2 full length trucks at high school who have to toss them what
left out too after finished their cherrypicking them for their uses.
OK, I'll post weekly lists of stuff to be thrown away. I will charge
1.2*(cost of shipping). However, I can assure you that there is nothing
'interesting' being thrown away. This is all plain vanilla stuff. There
are some interesting things there (a bunch of dual-486 ISA cards) which
are being kept :)
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power
9:39 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
On 14 Apr 99 at 21:20, Max Eskin wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 jpero(a)cgocable.net wrote:
I used to admire your brash freshness and sense of social justice but now I
must question which brand of the new Soviet mafia you are enamored of .
Correct me if I'm wrong Max but I believe you live in NYC. Are you telling me
that everyone in NYC has a computer who desires one ? This glut of computers
that you had "fun" destroying, was there really any attempt to distribute them
to the various communities and people who might desire a computer?
United States is held in contempt by much of the world just because of it's
gluttinous consumer society attitudes. Surely CC is an example that shows
that that is not the prevailing belief.. Most of us have respect for the labor
and industry that went into these creations, usually ill-rewarded and often
unrecognized. I would like to think that is the deeper feeling that motivates
us, not the rising E-pay prices.
I have been fascinated by the destructive angst of North American kids and
have equivicated it to powerlessness and a reaction against a materialistic
society but have still watched in awe as some project kids gleefully reduce
an auto to meaningless junk. If it was my own kids I would kick shit out of
them and realise I knew them not.
Having come from a prewar generation where we watched TV at friends houses
because our families couldn't afford this new technology and an earlier time
when indoor toilets were a luxury I sometimes take a reality check and am
astounded at what we now take for granted. I can actually record any event
audio or visually and manipulate that data. I can print without typing or even
print my voice dictation. I can hear a printed text if I desire or have access
to a vast library of books or other media. Not to mention encyclopedias
without end and news without editorial control.
I am reminded that my mothers fresh home made bread was accompanied with an
admoniton that we had to stop feasting our avericious young appetites on the
delicious warm fresh loaves with fresh butter since it would make us sick if
too much was ingested. It took me years to discern that it would also deplete
the stock of bread from our sparse larders. Try and explain that to a kid in
North America (not Mexico) who thinks that bread is plentiful and pretty
boring.unless covered in jam.
The bottom line is that we shoud feel ashamed at anything that goes to
landfill that is desired and beneficial even out of respect for the labour that
has gone into them. My Take on things.
Rant OFF
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C
I had to rescue an Everex Step 386/25 with yellow
diagnostic
display and few other "useful" junk. Very interesting features
designed into that everex thing: 256K cache, can handle up to
64MB and few things in it. That "junk" came from a douated
government stuff piled high in LARGE amounts enough to fill at
least 2 full length trucks at high school who have to toss them what
left out too after finished their cherrypicking them for their uses.
OK, I'll post weekly lists of stuff to be thrown away. I will charge
1.2*(cost of shipping). However, I can assure you that there is nothing
'interesting' being thrown away. This is all plain vanilla stuff. There
are some interesting things there (a bunch of dual-486 ISA cards) which
are being kept :)
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power
15 Apr
15 Apr
5:28 a.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
I used to admire your brash freshness and sense of
social justice but now I
must question which brand of the new Soviet mafia you are enamored of .
Correct me if I'm wrong Max but I believe you live in NYC. Are you
telling me
that everyone in NYC has a computer who desires one ? This glut of computers
that you had "fun" destroying, was there really any attempt to distribute
them
to the various communities and people who might desire a computer?
The Goodwill near me just got 600 computers from Pacific Bell, all 486 and
older, most in pretty good shape. The result is that a LOT more only
slightly wanky 486 boxes are getting tossed in the scrappers bin. Goodwill
won't take a 386, or if it gets in the product stream it goes either to the
scrapper or the huge AS-IS morning auction of bins of stuff only loosely
sorted by category.
However painfull you may find it personally, it only takes a TINY bit wrong
to make an old computer have negative value except as scrap or parts.
9:52 a.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
I used to admire your brash freshness and sense of
social justice but now I
must question which brand of the new Soviet mafia you are enamored of .
Correct me if I'm wrong Max but I believe you live in NYC. Are you telling me
that everyone in NYC has a computer who desires one ? This glut of computers
that you had "fun" destroying, was there really any attempt to distribute them
to the various communities and people who might desire a computer?
The Dorsai Institute in new york will accept used computers, and I
believe they repair them, and make them available to kids. In fact,
the kids help repair the computers.
www.dorsai.org, click on 'mission' and then 'operation renew'.
I'm not in New York, Nor am I affiliated with Dorsai any longer,
though I used to run Realmsmud from that site for several years.
What the heck, if you donate something, mention that James from
Realmsmud told you about them.
-Lawrence LeMay
AKA James, God of RealmsMUD
11:07 a.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
> Correct me if I'm wrong Max but I believe
you live in NYC. Are you telling me
> that everyone in NYC has a computer who desires one ? This glut of computers
He is in MA, not far from boston. here anything below a 486 has no
value save to odd people like us.
I'm not in New York, Nor am I affiliated with
Dorsai any longer,
Off the top of my head I do not know of a similar org here. There is
however the MassTech Core which is involved in getting computeres into
schools (internet based, so only 386 or higher need apply).
Allison
11:49 a.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
> Correct
me if I'm wrong Max but I believe you live in NYC. Are you telling me
> that everyone in NYC has a computer who desires one ? This glut of computers
He is in MA, not far from boston. here anything below a 486 has no
value save to odd people like us.
I'm not in New York, Nor am I affiliated with
Dorsai any longer,
Off the top of my head I do not know of a similar org here. There is
however the MassTech Core which is involved in getting computeres into
schools (internet based, so only 386 or higher need apply).
12:28 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
Date sent: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:49:56 -0400 (EDT)
Send reply to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
From: John Ruschmeyer <jruschme(a)hiway1.exit109.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
Snip!
The biggest irony, I felt, was when I was a consultant
at AT&T Somerset.
Every where you looked there were big posters for "AT&T Cares" (employee
volunteerism). One of the items was "Donate computers to a local school
(486 and above)". I guess that's why they couldn't get rid of the *heaps*
of 386-class systems in the closets and storerooms.
Remember: 486 33 is double of what 386dx 33 does in
performance. Let say about 8,000 whetstones as mesured by
Checkit 3.0 on cached 386 33. Plus very few 386 boxens are
easily expandable with available parts. 486 stuff is very easily
expandable due to plenty supply of 72pin simms and cdroms,
many support LBA required for greater than 528MB HDs.
Personally, I tend to draw the line at the 386. In a
Windows and GUI
world, I really don't want the aggravation to trying to teach someone text
mode apps or of having to listen when they can't find *any* software. This
is the same reason I will never give another person an Apple II unless
they already know about and want one.
S/W can be found but often I find some people buy "current" s/w
and find out their computer is not capable of it. Happened to my
friend w/ a 486dx 33, all it do good is surfing and email, word
processing all kinds of business s/w. I told him to move up to
pentium level in fall. That kids game in that regard is Logo, failed
to run properly on it, that is because of puny 486 33 uncached.
Of course, I'm also a person who's been known
to travel with a 386SX-16
notebook (recently replaced with a 386SLC-25 one).
<<<John>>>
I still have old notebooks. LTE 386s/20 now retired from use due to
number of failures: edgelit lamp giving out, weak 386 even o/c to
25 and a cpu swap, keyboard is flaky. Aero 4/25 is pressed into
use but bit weak yuk compared to 701C. Latest addition is TP
701C that bought in fresh of air into performance-poor area. :-)
Oh, yesterday I saw a 50Z (minor problems) in repair at my
parttime work. IBM stuff says lot about reliablity and long time w/o
anguring into ground. I have no problems getting new parts for my
701C, in fact got them 1 day after order.
Wizard
2:14 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
The biggest
irony, I felt, was when I was a consultant at AT&T Somerset.
Every where you looked there were big posters for "AT&T Cares" (employee
volunteerism). One of the items was "Donate computers to a local school
(486 and above)". I guess that's why they couldn't get rid of the *heaps*
of 386-class systems in the closets and storerooms.
Remember: 486 33 is double of what 386dx 33 does in
performance. Let say about 8,000 whetstones as mesured by
Checkit 3.0 on cached 386 33. Plus very few 386 boxens are
easily expandable with available parts. 486 stuff is very easily
expandable due to plenty supply of 72pin simms and cdroms,
many support LBA required for greater than 528MB HDs. Personally, I
tend to draw the line at the 386. In a Windows and GUI
world, I really don't want the aggravation to trying to teach someone text
mode apps or of having to listen when they can't find *any* software. This
is the same reason I will never give another person an Apple II unless
they already know about and want one.
S/W can be found but often I find some people buy "current" s/w
and find out their computer is not capable of it. Happened to my
friend w/ a 486dx 33, all it do good is surfing and email, word
processing all kinds of business s/w. I told him to move up to
pentium level in fall. That kids game in that regard is Logo, failed
to run properly on it, that is because of puny 486 33 uncached. Of course,
I'm also a person who's been known to travel with a 386SX-16
notebook (recently replaced with a 386SLC-25 one).
I still have old notebooks. LTE 386s/20 now retired from use due to
number of failures: edgelit lamp giving out, weak 386 even o/c to
25 and a cpu swap, keyboard is flaky. Aero 4/25 is pressed into
use but bit weak yuk compared to 701C. Latest addition is TP
701C that bought in fresh of air into performance-poor area. :-)
3:14 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
Date sent: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:14:02 -0400 (EDT)
Send reply to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
From: John Ruschmeyer <jruschme(a)hiway1.exit109.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
SNip!
I'll agree on the performance issue, particularly
since all but the
cheapest 486s had external cache, while only the most expensive 386s
had it.
I tend to disagree on the expandability, though. Pretty much every
Reasons for ease of expansion, at the time when XT and 286 were
king till up to '93, most of them don't have onboard ports, mostly on
cards. 386 and 486 was "THE high end" between '87 to '93 Those
386/486 boxens were very few often found in branded models with
onboard ports. Clones didn't. Memories was expensive still and
clones always comes with cards, very few used onboard ports.
Remember, common people can't afford more than 2.5 grand for
most machines that are where clones abrounds. Till very late
around '95 that we saw turn from many cards for i/o to onboard i/o
for motherboards. Memories still expensive, I do recall I had paid
700CDN for set of 2 8MB EDO in early '96 along with P5 100, asus
board (TP4XEG model) and 1gig hd.
30pin simms of any kind is very hard to come by now compared to
ease of obtaining used 72pin of all types.
Now SDRAM is for short time, cheapest possible to go. :)
LBA is better avoided if possible in "idiotic" enviroments like
schools because that said computer with lost LBA driver sits for
days even weeks till someone is found to reinstall it because
school must send in requests for repairs approvals and most don't
have good nerdy teacher and few young bright hackers is very rare
and usually not allowed into school stuff. Older 386 and slower
486 also don't need the trouble large hd brings with. Keeping
smaller hd on them helps to deal with cpu limitations because
older s/w is also smaller. Putting big one in invites "newer" s/w
that cpu can't keep up and get a unhappy users and troubles.
I DO rememeber that case years ago...in early 90's, remember, XT
is plentiful and parts can be had off the streets by bunches. Case
in point: I was taking a machine shop class which has small CTC
run by a IBM XT that needed full 640K. Guess what? nearly 4
months to get that job done. Soon after I found a tip that needs
TTL IC, 18 256K x 1 and a piece of wire can do the job in few
hours. Which I did myself on one of XT board for fun. :-(
Snip!
Weren't the Aero's the ones with the PCMCIA
floppy or were they the
pen-based ones? (I always get the Aero and the Contura mixed up.)
Aero is PCMCIA floppy type 4lbs cut down, excessive no frills
notebook. I don't like the trackball with buttons location, cramped
expansions, weak 486 and odd video chipset. But for "floppy"
making and light reading, run win 3.xx, using it as go between
instead of verbal or when paper n pen is not needed with hearing
people. I'm deaf.
Would I like something faster, sure, but I really
can't justify it for
what I use them for- basic connectivity and recreation while on the road
(though I have considered putting in a bigger drive in the NCR and setting
up a NetBSD partition).
If you're looking for larger HD, sounds like you're ready for a
powerful notebook. Older machines with "weaker" CPU only needs
small HD usually. Don't dodge that one! Please go ahead and
flich a 486DX2 or better class, TFT panel notebook with big hd. I
excused myself like this idiotic thing for years till this LTE 386s/20,
10MB ram w/ 300MB fitted in. First thing next I tried was linux and
xwin on it. Total distraster. And soon after Aero was bought in
and rest is history. Suggestion: Go TP! Parts sources from ibm
servicer places is still can be had for old TP's. That is how I did
yesterday last nite on 701C. Ditto to 700C which was traded away.
Xwin is CPU-hungry + Ram eater, this does helps very much when
HD is good in high speed transfers with largest possible internal hd
buffer. I found that out on 486dx2 then to p5-100 (much better!)
then K6-2 400 (perfect).
<<<john>>>
Wizard
3:26 p.m.
New subject: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find.
30pin simms of any kind is very hard to come by now
compared to
I have a boxfull, mostly 9 bit 1 MB 30 pin simms, I don't advertise it
except to friends because small transactions are a PITA, but I sell them
for $3/4, $5/8 plus actual shipping. I also have some 256k simms, some 8
bit, some 4 MB, and a few weird modules like 32 pin or AST 64 pin. Please
make any direct questions via email to me and not the full list.
3:49 p.m.
New subject: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find.
Have you got any 1Mb DIPPs??
----------------------------------------
Tired of Micro$oft???
Move up to a REAL OS...
######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ #
#####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /##
####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /###
###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |####
##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|####
# ######
("LINUX" for those of you
without fixed-width fonts)
----------------------------------------
Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com
Slackware Mailing List:
http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html
30pin simms of
any kind is very hard to come by now compared to
I have a boxfull, mostly 9 bit 1 MB 30 pin simms, I don't advertise it
except to friends because small transactions are a PITA, but I sell them
for $3/4, $5/8 plus actual shipping. I also have some 256k simms, some 8
bit, some 4 MB, and a few weird modules like 32 pin or AST 64 pin. Please
make any direct questions via email to me and not the full list.
7:49 a.m.
New subject: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find.
Have you got
any 1Mb DIPPs??
I have seen SIPPs, but have none of either. What exactly is a DIPP?
15 Apr
15 Apr
4:03 p.m.
New subject: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find.
30pin simms of
any kind is very hard to come by now compared to
I have a boxfull, mostly 9 bit 1 MB 30 pin simms, I don't advertise it
except to friends because small transactions are a PITA, but I sell them
for $3/4, $5/8 plus actual shipping. I also have some 256k simms, some 8
bit, some 4 MB, and a few weird modules like 32 pin or AST 64 pin. Please
make any direct questions via email to me and not the full list.
16 Apr
16 Apr
12:13 a.m.
New subject: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find.
----- Original Message -----
From: Arfon Gryffydd <arfonrg(a)texas.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 16, 1999 10:19 PM
Subject: Re: 30 pin simms, not so hard to find.
A DIPP is another name for SIPP by morons (Like myself) who momentarily
forgot that SIPP was the correct name.
Anyone have any small 1Mb SIPPs?
Yes I have quite a few ex 386SX-20 Diskless workstations circa 1993.
Er small? Was there more than one size.
These are the same size as the equivalent simm, and can be converted to same
by CAREFULLY removing the pins and the solder. (Not easy, but I have done
it and made it work on occasion - though only when desperate it's a real
PITA)
Cheers
Geoff Roberts
Have you
got any 1Mb DIPPs??
I have seen SIPPs, but have none of either. What exactly is a DIPP? 
15 Apr
15 Apr
7:38 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
30pin simms of any kind is very hard to come by now compared to
ease of obtaining used 72pin of all types.
Now SDRAM is for short time, cheapest possible to go. :)
Really...
I'll swap 4 4mb 30 pit Simms for 16mb true parity 72pin simms in a minute.
(The Sparc IPX used 33 bit wide Simms) but 36 will work.
I might just get the Sparc IPX up to speed then.
Anyone want to take me up on it?
Bill
2:58 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
Personally, I tend to draw the line at the 386. In a
Windows and GUI world,
I really don't want the aggravation to trying to teach someone text mode
apps or of having to listen when they can't find *any* software. This is
the same reason I will never give another person an Apple II unless they
already know about and want one.
OTOH, most 386 class sytems can share enough hardware and software with
later brethren that the issue is more one of speed.
Of course, I'm also a person who's been known to travel with a 386SX-16
notebook (recently replaced with a 386SLC-25 one).
The key to old systems is that the combustable mixture for them to run,
knowledgable help, manuals, software, hardware, etc., can't be missing any
of the critical parts. With newer systems its reasonable to expect a person
to have some support outside of yourself, radio shack has a cable, neighbor
kid can reinstall Windows, etc. With an older system the first link that
breaks and you are generally sunk. Radio Shack may have the blinkity cable,
but the saleguy will not know it and tell them its too old just replace it.
A couple local guys do nothing but cheap 386 systems, and they succeed
because they offer support, and a very complete install of software. To do
that you need to spend a fair amount of time getting a procedure and
software all ready to quickly put on to new systems. If these two guys
didn't do it, it would be straight to the dumpster. It only "works" though
when you have a pretty good tech, like they are, willing to work very very
cheap.
3:22 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
Date sent: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:58:22 -0700
Send reply to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
From: Mike Ford <mikeford(a)netwiz.net>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
The key to old systems is that the combustable mixture
for them to run,
knowledgable help, manuals, software, hardware, etc., can't be missing any
of the critical parts. With newer systems its reasonable to expect a
person to have some support outside of yourself, radio shack has a cable,
neighbor kid can reinstall Windows, etc. With an older system the first
link that breaks and you are generally sunk. Radio Shack may have the
blinkity cable, but the saleguy will not know it and tell them its too old
just replace it.
A couple local guys do nothing but cheap 386 systems, and they succeed
because they offer support, and a very complete install of software. To do
that you need to spend a fair amount of time getting a procedure and
software all ready to quickly put on to new systems. If these two guys
didn't do it, it would be straight to the dumpster. It only "works" though
when you have a pretty good tech, like they are, willing to work very very
cheap.
Bang on! This mix is needed to keep old boxens running.
But there no difference since if there is knowledgeable people and
willing to do it for pay or for free. I know of few local stores who
refuses to touch older than 486dx4 100 because they think this will
cramp their profits. That's big mistake! :-)
People of all kinds comes in w/ their machines, XT, 286, 386 and
few oddball that we can fix at work helps our bottomline by good
reputation and in turn helps us to sell new machines too. I had to
push my friend who teaches college students to instill them with
these oldies stuff and certain oddball machines.
Wizard
3:26 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
At 04:22 PM 4/15/99 -0400, jpero(a)cgocable.net wrote:
Bang
on! This mix is needed to keep old boxens running.
But there no difference since if there is knowledgeable people and
willing to do it for pay or for free.
Perhaps I haven't looked in the right nooks, but finding online info
about these pre-Internet 486 or earlier systems is tough. Sure, many
companies have their contemporary items online, but there's little
movitation for them to put the old stuff online: old drivers, old
manuals, old specs.
- John
3:55 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
Please STOP calling 386 and 486 machines "OLD"!!
There's stuff in my freezer older than that.
If you want to see "old", we can show you "OLD".
I have been upgrading and maintaining the computers for the local humane
society. In the last few years, I have brought them from XTs up to 486
and Pentium Windoze machines, using nothing but the junk that has been
donated. My current policy is that any pre-VGA monitors go straight into
the rummage sale (usually 1st and 3rd Saturdays); 486 and Pentium machines
get put into use; 286 and non-exceptional 386 get cannibalized to help the
486 and Pentium machines.
By the end of the year, I'm hoping to have everytyhing up to Pentium, and
a few 200MHz level machines for the DTP, etc.
I have occasionally had reports of older machines that "would not work"
with current software. In most cases, other than actual hardware
malfunctions, those problems could be solved by swapping the case with
somebody else's "not working" machine, and putting Pentium stickers on the
box (which makes everything run MUCH faster). A 386 can run Windoze95 IFF
it has a Pentium sticker.
5:09 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
box (which makes everything run MUCH faster). A 386
can run Windoze95 IFF
it has a Pentium sticker.
The Emperor's New Clothes in the information age :)
How long does it take to install win95 on a 386? Longer than on a pentium,
I'll bet, especially since you may have to sit there and swap floppies.
I have no problem running Windows 3.1, I like it a lot more in some ways.
It's a very nice program, now that I've seen the alternative :)
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power
6:40 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
If you can keep from breaking the keyboard, try running Win3.1 with the
Calmira updates. If you squint, and suspend disbelief, it could almost
be a real operating sysytem.
On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Max Eskin wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
215 Shady Lea Road,
North Kingstown, RI 02852
"Casta est qui nemo rogavit."
- Ovid
box (which makes everything run MUCH faster). A
386 can run Windoze95 IFF
it has a Pentium sticker.
The Emperor's New Clothes in the information age :)
How long does it take to install win95 on a 386? Longer than on a pentium,
I'll bet, especially since you may have to sit there and swap floppies.
I have no problem running Windows 3.1, I like it a lot more in some ways.
It's a very nice program, now that I've seen the alternative :)
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power
5:54 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote:
If you can keep from breaking the keyboard, try running
Win3.1 with the
Calmira updates. If you squint, and suspend disbelief, it could almost
be a real operating sysytem.
What's a Calmira update, and why would I be likely to break the keyboard
while running it?
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power
8:47 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
It's been said you have a propensity for damaging things...:) Check out
Calmira.org . They are doing some quite surprising things with 3.1.
On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Max Eskin wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote:
M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
215 Shady Lea Road,
North Kingstown, RI 02852
"Casta est qui nemo rogavit."
- Ovid
If you can keep from breaking the keyboard, try
running Win3.1 with the
Calmira updates. If you squint, and suspend disbelief, it could almost
be a real operating sysytem.
What's a Calmira update, and why would I be likely to break the keyboard
while running it?
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power
8:50 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote:
It's been said you have a propensity for damaging
things...:) Check out
Calmira.org . They are doing some quite surprising things with 3.1.
This looks like a simple interface modification. I've tried several of
these and liked most of them. I still don't understand why nobody bothers
to build something entirely new...(like BeOS, only exciting)
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power
16 Apr
16 Apr
7:36 a.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
Yes, it almost makes Windog bearable. There was talk of redoing the the
naughty bits, but apparently they think they're not capable of doing
it. There's a Calmira tips list, but the description ball-less yuppie
scum springs to mind. On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Max Eskin wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote:
M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
215 Shady Lea Road,
North Kingstown, RI 02852
"Casta est qui nemo rogavit."
- Ovid
It's been said you have a propensity for
damaging things...:) Check out
Calmira.org . They are doing some quite surprising things with 3.1.
This looks like a simple interface modification. I've tried several of
these and liked most of them. I still don't understand why nobody bothers
to build something entirely new...(like BeOS, only exciting)
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power
15 Apr
15 Apr
6:53 p.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Max Eskin wrote:
The Emperor's New Clothes in the information age
:)
How long does it take to install win95 on a 386? Longer than on a pentium,
I'll bet, especially since you may have to sit there and swap floppies.
I use a external SCSI (NEC #25 1X) CDROM connected through a Trantor
Mini-SCSI-EPP parallel port adapter. It takes a while, but works
reasonably well.
A 386 is NOT a good configuration for general purpose Windoze95,
but for a dedicated machine for data entry, it's usable.
I have no problem running Windows 3.1, I like it a lot
more in some ways.
It's a very nice program, now that I've seen the alternative :)
Will Windoze95 look good to us when Win1900 comes out?
16 Apr
16 Apr
7:31 a.m.
New subject: Afe of CD (was: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He)
>box (which makes everything run MUCH faster). A
386 can run Windoze95 IFF
>it has a Pentium sticker.
The Emperor's New Clothes in the information age
:)
How long does it take to install win95 on a 386? Longer than on a pentium,
I'll bet, especially since you may have to sit there and swap floppies.
Please, Max, do you belive the CD was invented together with the
486 ? <g> - Just for the records, I had my first (private owned)
CD Drive on a 386-16 MHz. At the office we had an CD connected to
a XT (a genuine PHILIPS audio drive with changed controller to
supply raw CD data to the PC - all work was done by a 4.77 MHz
8088 :)), while later on most friends used 286 with CD, this
was at a time when 286 _and_ XTs still rueled the (PC) world.
Also there is no reason to hinder a CD from working on any 386 box.
In fact, from todays view it es necersarry to attach a (cheap) CD
if you want to use the 'old' 386.
Gruss
H.
--
Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/
Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/
Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
11:32 a.m.
New subject: Afe of CD (was: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He)
On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Hans Franke wrote:
Please, Max, do you belive the CD was invented
together with the
486 ? <g> - Just for the records, I had my first (private owned)
CD Drive on a 386-16 MHz. At the office we had an CD connected to
a XT (a genuine PHILIPS audio drive with changed controller to
supply raw CD data to the PC - all work was done by a 4.77 MHz
8088 :)), while later on most friends used 286 with CD, this
was at a time when 286 _and_ XTs still rueled the (PC) world.
Also there is no reason to hinder a CD from working on any 386 box.
In fact, from todays view it es necersarry to attach a (cheap) CD
if you want to use the 'old' 386.
And coincidentally, it was MS/PC - DOS 3.10 that was the first version to
have the "network redirector" code necessary to be able to run MSCDEX.EXE.
Also, before the days of IDE CD-ROMs, and "Sound-Card interface", there
were a lot of bizarre proprietary CD-ROM interfaces.
1:53 p.m.
New subject: Afe of CD (was: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He)
On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
Also, before the days of IDE CD-ROMs, and
"Sound-Card interface", there
were a lot of bizarre proprietary CD-ROM interfaces.
Yes, I've even owned a huge external drive for a while, I mailed it to
someone on this list.
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power
6:39 a.m.
New subject: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! He
I used to
admire your brash freshness and sense of social
justice but now I
must question which brand of the new Soviet mafia
you are enamored of .
Correct me if I'm wrong Max but I believe you live in NYC. Are
you telling
me
that everyone in NYC has a computer who desires
one ? This glut
of computers
that you had "fun" destroying, was
there really any attempt to
distribute them
> to the various communities and people who might desire a computer?
15 Apr
15 Apr
3:07 p.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote:
I used to admire your brash freshness and sense of
social justice but now I
must question which brand of the new Soviet mafia you are enamored of .
I am a sort of intermediary between the various factions...
Correct me if I'm wrong Max but I believe you live
in NYC. Are you telling me
that everyone in NYC has a computer who desires one ? This glut of computers
that you had "fun" destroying, was there really any attempt to distribute them
to the various communities and people who might desire a computer?
Actually, I live in Boston, but your point remains the same. The problem
is simply that these computers aren't new enough. They can be used for
anything that a new one can be used for, but they won't read the newest MS
Word files. Microsoft made sure of that. Believe it or not, people can be
very picky about such things. Also, there is the issue that the computer
will never be used, or will get thrown away the next day, whatever. The
point is that there is no justification for the trouble it takes to
distribute computers to individuals. If these individuals want to get a
computer, fine. I have found dozens of computers in garbage cans, I'm sure
they can do no worse.
United States is held in contempt by much of the world
just because of it's
gluttinous consumer society attitudes. Surely CC is an example that shows
that that is not the prevailing belief.. Most of us have respect for the labor
and industry that went into these creations, usually ill-rewarded and often
unrecognized. I would like to think that is the deeper feeling that motivates
us, not the rising E-pay prices.
The USA is held in contempt for many reasons, and the consumer society
attitude is part of a larger problem. Personally, I do not like to damage
anything, but once in a while, I like to have some fun. If I didn't do
that, I wouldn't be motivated to do anything useful in between. These
computers aren't classic, and aren't examples of labor/industry. They
weren't made by human hands, they mostly weren't even designed by human
hands. The only place where human hands stood to get mangled was by
getting paper cuts against the dollar bills and credit cards.
I have been fascinated by the destructive angst of
North American kids and
have equivicated it to powerlessness and a reaction against a materialistic
society but have still watched in awe as some project kids gleefully reduce
an auto to meaningless junk. If it was my own kids I would kick shit out of
them and realise I knew them not.
My rising familiarity with technology past and present leads me to
question whether it wasn't meaningless junk before...seriously, if these
kids didn't own the car, they have a bigger problem, and should probably
get a sound beating. If it was their car, I can quite understand their
desire to release their exasperation. Isn't it better to smash a car than
a person? I guess you have lived a good life, and so have I, but even I
sometimes feel like nothing matters anymore, I'm so frustrated. And for
people living in the projects, it must be so much more serious.
when indoor toilets were a luxury I sometimes take a
reality check and am
How old are you, anyway?
astounded at what we now take for granted. I can
actually record any event
audio or visually and manipulate that data. I can print without typing or even
print my voice dictation. I can hear a printed text if I desire or have access
to a vast library of books or other media. Not to mention encyclopedias
without end and news without editorial control.
So what? I haven't found any useful purpose for recording events visually
and manipulating the data. The government sure has, and I think that's an
important fact. It's the government and the corporations that use this
technology, not us. But, we make use of such notions as generosity and
altruism, which a country or a corporation is incapable of.
I am reminded that my mothers fresh home made bread
was accompanied with an
admoniton that we had to stop feasting our avericious young appetites on the
delicious warm fresh loaves with fresh butter since it would make us sick if
too much was ingested. It took me years to discern that it would also deplete
the stock of bread from our sparse larders. Try and explain that to a kid in
North America (not Mexico) who thinks that bread is plentiful and pretty
boring.unless covered in jam.
For one thing, home-baked bread is much less boring than factory-made
bread. I once went for a walk next to a lake, which was just near a Wonder
Bread factory. That place smells like a crematorium! All of our advanced
farming techniques have done nothing besides fatten somebody's wallet and
increase the incidence of cancer. Over a billion are still starving and nobody
who can do something wants to do anything about it. Back in the USSR, I
remember reading a book about --guess what-- saving bread.
A boy gets bored with his piece of bread and begins to play with it. He
rolls it up into a ball and throws it away. The ball comes alive and
starts to reproach him. It leads him to the farm where a farmer plants
seeds, where a driver operates a combine harvester, etc. all the way up to
the bakery. At the end, the boy says he will never play with bread again.
Just thought I'd mention that one. There is no shortage of bread in this
world. There is an excess of assholes.
The bottom line is that we shoud feel ashamed at
anything that goes to
landfill that is desired and beneficial even out of respect for the labour
that has gone into them. My Take on things.
I am very much of a packrat, that's why I'm on this list. I just take
breaks sometimes.
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power
4:07 p.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
On 15 Apr 99 at 16:07, Max Eskin wrote:
Your definition of "fun" eludes me. Maybe I'm just too old.
My point exactly. I think that as a society we are in deep shit if this is the
prevailing feeling of our children.
That was in a rural villiage in Manitoba in the midforties and quite common
outside the cities.
What I am alluding to is the magnitude and rapidity of change in technology in
this century. Events have occurred that are beyond the imagination of even the
most visionary sci-fi writers from early in this century. All of us use every
day things that would be mind-numbing to a previous generation. TV, VSRs,
pocket tape recorders, not to mention things like the Internet where you can be
in almost instantaneous contact with people all over the world.
Governments have always used the prevailing media to manipulate people. The
sophistication of it is all thats changed. But of course it's a double edged
sword as evidenced by various gov. unsuccessful so far attempts to control the
media. eg Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey and of course Mexico with the Chiapas
rebels.
What an exemplary story. We could use more like it rather than the Rambo and
Streetfighter types.
As the old Chinese curse goes "May you live in interesting times"
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C
On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote:
The advantage we have is that we are not intimidated by the technology and
can fix them. I am heartened by some of the examples listed which get these
machines out to people who can use them, especially the one that used them
for teaching kids how to repair and then keep their machines.
A lot of the disposable societies glut is because the majority of people
haven't got a clue as to how their convenience machine works. If it stops
fuctioning toss it and buy another. I'm amazed at what I find in the garbage.
A good percentage of the time, it's just a faulty power cord.
I don't use MS Word myself nor for that matter code-bloated Windblows 9x
and don't find myself at any disadvantage except for some of the newer programs
that demand 32 bit. I can do without them. There are plenty of programs
available in the various archives to do my tasks.
I used to admire your brash freshness and sense
of social justice but now I
must question which brand of the new Soviet mafia you are enamored of .
I am a sort of intermediary between the various factions...
Correct me if I'm wrong Max but I believe you
live in NYC. Are you telling me
that everyone in NYC has a computer who desires one ? This glut of computers
that you had "fun" destroying, was there really any attempt to distribute them
to the various communities and people who might desire a computer?
Actually, I live in Boston, but your point remains the same. The problem
is simply that these computers aren't new enough. They can be used for
anything that a new one can be used for, but they won't read the newest MS
Word files. Microsoft made sure of that. Believe it or not, people can be
very picky about such things. Also, there is the issue that the computer
will never be used, or will get thrown away the next day, whatever. The
point is that there is no justification for the trouble it takes to
distribute computers to individuals. If these individuals want to get a
computer, fine. I have found dozens of computers in garbage cans, I'm sure
they can do no worse.
United States
is held in contempt by much of the world just because of it's
gluttinous consumer society attitudes. Surely CC is an example that shows
that that is not the prevailing belief.. Most of us have respect for the labor
and industry that went into these creations, usually ill-rewarded and often
unrecognized. I would like to think that is the deeper feeling that motivates
us, not the rising E-pay prices.
The USA is held in contempt for many reasons, and the consumer society
attitude is part of a larger problem. Personally, I do not like to damage
anything, but once in a while, I like to have some fun. If I didn't do
that, I wouldn't be motivated to do anything useful in between. These
computers aren't classic, and aren't examples of labor/industry. They
weren't made by human hands, they mostly weren't even designed by human
hands. The only place where human hands stood to get mangled was by
getting paper cuts against the dollar bills and credit cards.
I have been
fascinated by the destructive angst of North American kids and
have equivicated it to powerlessness and a reaction against a materialistic
society but have still watched in awe as some project kids gleefully reduce
an auto to meaningless junk. If it was my own kids I would kick shit out of
them and realise I knew them not.
My rising familiarity with technology past and present leads me to
question whether it wasn't meaningless junk before...seriously, if these
kids didn't own the car, they have a bigger problem, and should probably
get a sound beating. If it was their car, I can quite understand their
desire to release their exasperation. Isn't it better to smash a car than
a person? I guess you have lived a good life, and so have I, but even I
sometimes feel like nothing matters anymore, I'm so frustrated. And for
people living in the projects, it must be so much more serious.
when indoor
toilets were a luxury I sometimes take a reality check and am
How old are you, anyway?
astounded at
what we now take for granted. I can actually record any event
audio or visually and manipulate that data. I can print without typing or even
print my voice dictation. I can hear a printed text if I desire or have access
to a vast library of books or other media. Not to mention encyclopedias
without end and news without editorial control.
So what? I haven't found any useful purpose for recording events visually
and manipulating the data. The government sure has, and I think that's an
important fact. It's the government and the corporations that use this
technology, not us. But, we make use of such notions as generosity and
altruism, which a country or a corporation is incapable of.
I am reminded
that my mothers fresh home made bread was accompanied with an
admoniton that we had to stop feasting our avericious young appetites on the
delicious warm fresh loaves with fresh butter since it would make us sick if
too much was ingested. It took me years to discern that it would also deplete
the stock of bread from our sparse larders. Try and explain that to a kid in
North America (not Mexico) who thinks that bread is plentiful and pretty
boring.unless covered in jam.
For one thing, home-baked bread is much less boring than factory-made
bread. I once went for a walk next to a lake, which was just near a Wonder
Bread factory. That place smells like a crematorium! All of our advanced
farming techniques have done nothing besides fatten somebody's wallet and
increase the incidence of cancer. Over a billion are still starving and nobody
who can do something wants to do anything about it. Back in the USSR, I
remember reading a book about --guess what-- saving bread.
A boy gets bored with his piece of bread and begins to play with it. He
rolls it up into a ball and throws it away. The ball comes alive and
starts to reproach him. It leads him to the farm where a farmer plants
seeds, where a driver operates a combine harvester, etc. all the way up to
the bakery. At the end, the boy says he will never play with bread again.
Just thought I'd mention that one. There is no
shortage of bread in this
world. There is an excess of assholes.
Amen to that.
The bottom
line is that we shoud feel ashamed at anything that goes to
landfill that is desired and beneficial even out of respect for the labour
that has gone into them. My Take on things.
I am very much of a packrat, that's why I'm on this list. I just take
breaks sometimes.
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power
16 Apr
16 Apr
1:29 p.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
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10:56 p.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
However, for people starting out, getting their first
computer, they are
going to want to be able to use the software from the local PC shop.
They're going to want to be able to use the 'learn to use your home
computer' type magazines. And, unfortuantely, you can't use a PDPx or a
PERQ or a TRS-80 or an Apple ][ or a PET or a BBC or a ... for any of
that. Sure _we_ can get these machines to do useful work, but probably
others can't.
Sure, anyone can. Just deliver them an old home computer with a stack of
books and magazines that were published around it and they could figure
anything out. You can find old issues of Nibble, Incider, A+ for the
Apple ][ in lots of places. I'm sure the prevailing magazines for the
other common machines can be found just as easily. Of course a PERQ or
PDP would be a different story, but the home micros are well documented.
I'm even more amazed by the amount of test
equipment that I've been given
as 'beyond repair' that's had trivial faults. It's one thing that the
little-old-lady can't fix the TV (even if the only fault is a wire off in
the plug), but an electronic engineer who can't find an blown fuse in
some expensive piece of equipment? What is this world coming to?
I've gotten some real good test equipment that had only trivial faults for
real cheap. Now to find those faults and fix them :)
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0!
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 04/03/99]
17 Apr
17 Apr
9:45 a.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
Sure they're useful to anyone. My first computer, a TRS-80 CoCo, was given
to me by my parents in 1990 or 1991... quite a while after they had gone
out of style (They got it at a garage sale for $90 or something). I didn't
get any magazines with it, but I did get loads of books... that first day,
I must have gotten through the first 5 chapters in the BASIC programming
book.. and I had a ball with it. People at Rat Snack laughed at me and
told me to get a REAL copmuter (286 or 386..heh), that I couldn't do
anything with this machine... I laughed at them because I had hours of fun
playing Space Invaders, Shooting Gallery and Wildcatting (I actually still
have that cart, even though I no longer have the computer :( )... and then
came my second computer, and apple IIe :)
Kevin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After sifting through the overwritten remaining blocks of Luke's
home directory, Luke and PDP-1 sped away from /u/lars, across the surface
of the Winchester riding Luke's flying read/write head. PDP-1 had Luke stop
at the edge of the cylinder overlooking /usr/spool/uucp.
"Unix-to-Unix Copy Program;" said PDP-1. "You will never find a
more wretched hive of bugs and flamers. We must be cautious."
-- DECWARS
____________________________________________________________________
| Kevin Stewart | "I am a secret |
| KC8BLL ----------| Wrapped in a mystery -Milford High School |
| a2k(a)one.net | Wrapped in an enigma Drama Tech Dept. |
|jlennon(a)nether.net| And drizzled in some tasty chocolate stuff.|
--------------------------------------------------------------------
On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
However, for people starting out, getting their
first computer, they are
going to want to be able to use the software from the local PC shop.
They're going to want to be able to use the 'learn to use your home
computer' type magazines. And, unfortuantely, you can't use a PDPx or a
PERQ or a TRS-80 or an Apple ][ or a PET or a BBC or a ... for any of
that. Sure _we_ can get these machines to do useful work, but probably
others can't.
Sure, anyone can. Just deliver them an old home computer with a stack of
books and magazines that were published around it and they could figure
anything out. You can find old issues of Nibble, Incider, A+ for the
Apple ][ in lots of places. I'm sure the prevailing magazines for the
other common machines can be found just as easily. Of course a PERQ or
PDP would be a different story, but the home micros are well documented.
I'm even more amazed by the amount of test
equipment that I've been given
as 'beyond repair' that's had trivial faults. It's one thing that the
little-old-lady can't fix the TV (even if the only fault is a wire off in
the plug), but an electronic engineer who can't find an blown fuse in
some expensive piece of equipment? What is this world coming to?
I've gotten some real good test equipment that had only trivial faults for
real cheap. Now to find those faults and fix them :)
Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0!
See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 04/03/99]
16 Apr
16 Apr
11:23 p.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
On 16 Apr 99 at 19:29, Tony Duell wrote:
But we were talking about trashing 386 and 486 s . Most people could use those
for "surfing the web" or most of the tasks that home computers are used for by
the vast majority of people despite being urged by the "Big Sell" to be on the
bleeding edge.
The advantage
we have is that we are not intimidated by the technology and
can fix them. I am heartened by some of the examples listed which get these
I can see 2 points of view here.
Firstly we know that useful work can be done on old machines. I could
still write a perfectly respectable letter using Scripsit on my old Tandy
model 4 and print it out on a daisywheel printer. My BBC micro will still
play interesting games (if that's what you're into).
But, we also know that these machines won't run the latest version of
Windows. It doesn't matter to us - we can find the software we need to
run under other operating systems.
However, for people starting out, getting their first computer, they are
going to want to be able to use the software from the local PC shop.
They're going to want to be able to use the 'learn to use your home
computer' type magazines. And, unfortuantely, you can't use a PDPx or a
PERQ or a TRS-80 or an Apple ][ or a PET or a BBC or a ... for any of
that. Sure _we_ can get these machines to do useful work, but probably
others can't.
For somebody who wants to learn how a computer works,
or who wants to
learn to program (in assembly language, even), then these old machine are
great, though. Pity more people don't want to do this.
But of course we are urged to "want" all sorts of things. I'd love
to be able
to afford a Lamborgini. But if you don't have a TV a B&W is a step up. And for
many out there unable to afford a computer, a 386 is a luxury even if it isn't
on the bleeding edge despite the "need for speed" of so many computer
advocates and the encoragement of Software companies looking to sell new
product. Reminds me of the Auto companies High Horsepower sell untill it
became non-viable in the 70s as a selling point, or the earlier ever-changing
new model fin-size. Our local Freenet has stayed with Lynx just because many
of the members don't have a GUI machine. This enables most to get on the
internet. Which is becoming the class distinction of our era.
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C
machines out to people who can use them,
especially the one that used them
for teaching kids how to repair and then keep their machines.
A lot of the disposable societies glut is because the majority of people
haven't got a clue as to how their convenience machine works. If it stops
fuctioning toss it and buy another. I'm amazed at what I find in the garbage.
A good percentage of the time, it's just a faulty power cord.
I'm even more amazed by the amount of test equipment that I've been given
as 'beyond repair' that's had trivial faults. It's one thing that the
little-old-lady can't fix the TV (even if the only fault is a wire off in
the plug), but an electronic engineer who can't find an blown fuse in
some expensive piece of equipment? What is this world coming to?
I don't use MS Word myself nor for that
matter code-bloated Windblows 9x
and don't find myself at any disadvantage except for some of the newer programs
that demand 32 bit. I can do without them. There are plenty of programs
available in the various archives to do my tasks.
Sure, you can do without said programs. So can I. OK, I do like Linux
(which means I need a 386 or above, but nothing more). But this doesn't
mean that j-random-public doesn't want (or thinks he wants) the latest M$
offering.
-tony
17 Apr
17 Apr
1:43 a.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
However, for people starting out, getting their first
computer, they are
going to want to be able to use the software from the local PC shop.
They're going to want to be able to use the 'learn to use your home
computer' type magazines. And, unfortuantely, you can't use a PDPx or a
PERQ or a TRS-80 or an Apple ][ or a PET or a BBC or a ... for any of
that. Sure _we_ can get these machines to do useful work, but probably
others can't.
Thats it in a nutshell. Either you provide a full suite of software with
the old hardware, or new users won't be able to use it. With the right
software people are AMAZED at what older computers can do. Without actually
seeing software running and doing the things they want to do, novice users
won't believe it can be done.
20 Apr
20 Apr
3:19 a.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote:
That was in a rural villiage in Manitoba in the midforties and quite common
outside the cities.
It's still not impossible to find today, in rural areas. I'm in my 20s,
and I've certainly entered houses with no plumbing before. In rural
areas.
Heck, I used to use the outhouse at my grandparents' place (rural
Quebec) when I was a kid. The whole area where they lived (and where my
mother grew up) didn't have electricity until the late 40s or early 50s.
I think the kitchen in the farm house _still_ has a hand pump at the sink,
which pumps water from the cistern in the basement (which collects water
The advantage we have is that we are not intimidated
by the technology and
can fix them. I am heartened by some of the examples listed which get these
machines out to people who can use them, especially the one that used them
for teaching kids how to repair and then keep their machines.
I think more can be learned from old machines (of all types) than new
ones.
A lot of the disposable societies glut is because the
majority of people
haven't got a clue as to how their convenience machine works. If it stops
fuctioning toss it and buy another. I'm amazed at what I find in the garbage.
A good percentage of the time, it's just a faulty power cord.
I've rescued a few things like that myself. Most people would toss things
out, but I tinker with them. I generally don't know what I'm doing, but
that doesn't mean I won't TRY to fix things!
My parents seem to know to let me tinker with things before throwing them
out. But if it wasn't me tinkering, it'd probably be my father... he
usually tries to fix the major appliances, and he usually manages to do
it. It's just the electronic gadgets that stump him! :)
when indoor toilets were a luxury I sometimes take a
reality check and am
How old are you, anyway?
from the metal roof). A modern bathroom wasn't
installed until the
1980s after my grandfather passed away. And all heating is by
wood stoves
which appear by their style to have been installed somewhere around the
end of the 19th century. :)
No CD players or cassette players, either. Just a hand-crank gramophone.
And some of the records are single-sided!
Not everyone is in a rush for the latest and greatest.
And I'm pretty cool with that.
My uncle, who runs the farm now, finally had a phone put in in the 1980s,
but not to the house. It's connected in the cow stable. He also keeps
his old Model A running. He also has an old Case tractor from (I think)
the 1930s which is still in use.
Another uncle (same family) is a mechanic, and collects old gasoline
engines and the occasional old car. And BTW, he's a _real_ mechanic who
knows his stuff, not some lamer who plugs your car into some gizmo and
reads the printout wrong. He experiments with discarded parts and makes
his own mechanical contraptions.
Old stuff is great, and generally more interesting than more modern
equivalents, though I certainly wouldn't want to give up my indoor
plumbing and electric furnace!
Anyway, this is OT. I just came from a bad exam (made too many gaffes
from double-guessing questions, and also my memory for
formulae wasn't
what I needed it to be) and I need to get away from computer
networks for
a while... which must be why I'm using one right now. ;)
--
Doug Spence
ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca
http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/
1:23 p.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
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8:50 p.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
On 20 Apr 99 at 19:23, Tony Duell wrote:
Out of curiousity was the term for the configuration of
the common tube mantle-radio, "All-American 5", used in the UK and
Europe or is this an expression you've acquired from Yanks.
I think more
can be learned from old machines (of all types) than new
ones.
I will agree with that. I challenge anyone to repair a PDP11 or a PDP8 or
a PERQ, or a ... and _not_ learn something about computer operation.
Ditto for programming those machines in machine code/microcode.
And you'll learn more about radio from the insides of an AA5 that you
will from one of the modern sets with all the electronics hidden inside
chips.
YEs. My parents (both of them) would try to fix things when they broke.
So I grew up in house where things were being repaired. So I couldn't
fail to learn something from this, and (even if I say so myself) learn to
fix even more complex problems.
-tony
My mothers purchase of 10 failed washing machines and a box of Audel
books at an auction sale was my inception into this world when I was a
teenager. I had always liked to tinker but applied study and effort resulted in
a profit of almost $400 to us, which was a considerable amount in the early
50s. Still have those books.
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C
21 Apr
21 Apr
12:59 a.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
Out of curiousity was the term for the configuration
of
the common tube mantle-radio, "All-American 5", used in the UK and
Europe or is this an expression you've acquired from Yanks.
I've seen it used in the US press (albiet magazines about old radios) so
I suspect it's from here in the US. If memory serves it's from a 5 tube
set (as near as I can tell, very like a chipset today) made by one or more
of the major tube manufacturers that had all the components for a simple,
inexpensive superhet radio.
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
20 Apr
20 Apr
10:56 p.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
On 20 Apr 99 at 23:59, Jim Strickland wrote:
Oh, the expression is definitely american. The AA5 were the 12ba6, 12be6,
35w4, 50b5 and the 12at6. British and Euro names for the same tubes could be
different but basicly the same circuit with occasional variants or additions.
RCA could have originated it but everyone and his brother put out sets using it
Kind of like the IBM clones. (in order to get back OT).
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C
Out of
curiousity was the term for the configuration of
the common tube mantle-radio, "All-American 5", used in the UK and
Europe or is this an expression you've acquired from Yanks.
I've seen it used in the US press (albiet magazines about old radios) so
I suspect it's from here in the US. If memory serves it's from a 5 tube
set (as near as I can tell, very like a chipset today) made by one or more
of the major tube manufacturers that had all the components for a simple,
inexpensive superhet radio.
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------- 
21 Apr
21 Apr
6:38 a.m.
New subject: "All-American Five"
On 20 Apr 99 at 23:59, Jim Strickland wrote:
Oh, the expression is definitely american. The AA5 were the 12ba6, 12be6,
35w4, 50b5 and the 12at6. British and Euro names for the same tubes could be
different but basicly the same circuit with occasional variants or additions.
RCA could have originated it but everyone and his brother put out sets using it
Kind of like the IBM clones. (in order to get back OT).
The AA5 was, in short, a reference design which was implemented and
marketed, more or less without changes, by quite a number of big and
small firms.
Since it was a reference design, the more OT examples would probably be:
Tandy CoCo 1 / Tato Dragon (both based on 6809 reference design)
WD8003 and NE1000 Ethernet boards (The relevant NSC chip has
reference designs for both a memory-mapped and a port-mapped
implementation. The 8003 is essentially the former and
the NE1000 is essentiall the latter.)
<<<John>>>
Out of
curiousity was the term for the configuration of
the common tube mantle-radio, "All-American 5", used in the UK and
Europe or is this an expression you've acquired from Yanks.
I've seen it used in the US press (albiet magazines about old radios) so
I suspect it's from here in the US. If memory serves it's from a 5 tube
set (as near as I can tell, very like a chipset today) made by one or more
of the major tube manufacturers that had all the components for a simple,
inexpensive superhet radio.
6:51 a.m.
New subject: "All-American Five"
Since it was a reference design, the more OT examples
would probably be:
Tandy CoCo 1 / Tato Dragon (both based on 6809 reference design)
WD8003 and NE1000 Ethernet boards (The relevant NSC chip has
reference designs for both a memory-mapped and a port-mapped
implementation. The 8003 is essentially the former and
the NE1000 is essentiall the latter.)
<<<John>>>
The idea of a reference design becoming an industry standard's
got me wondering.
I know the NEx000 and WD8003 were cases of that.
The only other case I know like this was the WD1001/WD1002
which became the industry standard for hard disk controllers
in the ST506 days.
The WD datasheets pretty much gave you everything you needed for
the controller.
I can't think of anything else like this in the PC area. (Intel
didn't give you a reference design for the 80386 to build a clone --
although they made a large number of the chips available).
Bill
---
bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org
Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC,
The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check.
10:26 a.m.
New subject: "All-American Five"
Hi Group:
Ah, the "All American Five". As a collector (also) of old radios,
I have the standard tube lineup for this at home, and could supply scanned
diagrams if anyone's interested.
It was an AC/DC type of set that it was very easily to electrocute
yourself on as it lacked any sort of power transformer and fuse. Ah, the
good old days!
See http://antiqueradios.com/chrs/journal/aa5.html for an article on the
set.
Kevin
> > > Out of curiousity was the term for the
configuration of
> > > the common tube mantle-radio, "All-American 5", used in the UK
and
> > > Europe or is this an expression you've acquired from Yanks.
--
Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD
mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca
2:38 p.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
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22 Apr
22 Apr
1:44 p.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
On 21 Apr 99 at 20:38, Tony Duell wrote:
Thanks Tony. A good reference to keep with my old radio manuals.
I have a book with some Euro equivalents but this is good for
recognizing the odd UK one that shows up here.
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page.
t3c(a)xoommail.com
Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C
Oh, the
expression is definitely american. The AA5 were the 12ba6, 12be6,
35w4, 50b5 and the 12at6. British and Euro names for the same tubes could be
The European (strictly Philips/Mullard) numbers for those valves are
(I've just looked them up):
12BA6 = HF93 (RF/IF pentode)
12BE6 = HK90 (pentagrid frequency changer)
12AT6 = HBC90 (double diode triode)
50B5 = (No european equivalent, but 50C5 = HL94 (output pentode)).
35W4 = HY90 (rectifier).
And I'll state that I have _never_ seen any of those valves in a UK
radio. 'H' heaters (150mA) are rare over here, as are pentagrid
converters in mains sets. A typical late-series UK AC/DC set would use :
UCH81 (triode hexode frequency changer)
UBF89 (double diode + IF amplifier pentode)
UL84 (output pentode) or UCL82 (triode output pentode)
UY85 rectifier
Or, closer to the AA5 :
UCH81
UF89 (IF pentode)
UBC80 (double diode triode)
UL84
UY85
Other possibilities include the B8A 'rimlock' valves :
UCH42, UF41, UBC41, UL41, UY41.
Or loctal valves :
UCH21 (triode hexode changer)
UCH21 (hexode as IF amplifier, triode as 1st audio)
UBL21 (double diode + output pentode)
UY21 (rectifier).
But there were plenty of other variations...
-tony
6:21 p.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
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21 Apr
21 Apr
3:23 p.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote:
On 20 Apr 99 at 23:59, Jim Strickland wrote:
Oh, the expression is definitely american. The AA5 were the 12ba6, 12be6,
35w4, 50b5 and the 12at6. British and Euro names for the same tubes could be
^^^^ Wasn't it 50L6?
- don
Out of
curiousity was the term for the configuration of
the common tube mantle-radio, "All-American 5", used in the UK and
Europe or is this an expression you've acquired from Yanks.
I've seen it used in the US press (albiet magazines about old radios) so
I suspect it's from here in the US. If memory serves it's from a 5 tube
set (as near as I can tell, very like a chipset today) made by one or more
of the major tube manufacturers that had all the components for a simple,
inexpensive superhet radio.
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------- different but basicly the same circuit with occasional
variants or additions.
RCA could have originated it but everyone and his brother put out sets using it
Kind of like the IBM clones. (in order to get back OT).
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C
donm(a)cts.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives
Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society
Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology.
Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/
visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/
with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/
3:54 p.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
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6:30 p.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
There were various versions, I think, using valves with different bases
but which were electically similar. The 12BE6/12BA6/12AT6/50B5/35W4 were
7 pin miniatures (B7G base in the UK). IIRC the octal line-up was
12(S)K8/12(S)K7/12(S)Q7/50L6/35Z4??? The 12K8, etc had top cap
connections, the 12SK8 etc were 'single ended' and had all connections
made through base pins.
-tony
You are right, of course. I was thinking of the octal series.
- don
Oh, the expression is definitely american. The AA5
were the 12ba6, 12be6,
35w4, 50b5 and the 12at6. British and Euro names for the same tubes could be
^^^^ Wasn't it 50L6?
22 Apr
22 Apr
1:44 p.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
On 21 Apr 99 at 13:23, Don Maslin wrote:
On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote:
I had done a quick look at the schema on the back of an old RCA set I
had.
Don't remember the "official" original tube but could be, based on the
number.
There were many variants depending on tube development but functionally the
same circuit.
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page.
t3c(a)xoommail.com
Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C
On 20 Apr 99 at 23:59, Jim Strickland wrote:
Oh, the expression is definitely american. The AA5 were the 12ba6, 12be6,
35w4, 50b5 and the 12at6. British and Euro names for the same tubes could be
^^^^ Wasn't it 50L6?
- don
Out of
curiousity was the term for the configuration of
the common tube mantle-radio, "All-American 5", used in the UK and
Europe or is this an expression you've acquired from Yanks.
I've seen it used in the US press (albiet magazines about old radios) so
I suspect it's from here in the US. If memory serves it's from a 5 tube
set (as near as I can tell, very like a chipset today) made by one or more
of the major tube manufacturers that had all the components for a simple,
inexpensive superhet radio.
--
Jim Strickland
jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------- different but basicly the same circuit with
occasional variants or additions.
RCA could have originated it but everyone and his brother put out sets using it
Kind of like the IBM clones. (in order to get back OT).
ciao larry
lwalker(a)interlog.com
Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C
21 Apr
21 Apr
2:20 p.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
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15 Apr
15 Apr
4:53 p.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
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5:12 p.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
You know, I like to have fun as well. But my fun
consists of taking a
pile of parts 'beyond economic repair' and getting them working again. Or
taking a few bits of scrap metal and learning to machine them. Or
designing Yet Another Useless Interface. In other words creating something.
I really don't understand this love of breaking things.
I don't have the expertise that you do, nor the time to do learn. I'm fed
up with the piles of crud that surround me, which I store because I might
need it someday, but actually never end up using. There's also the issue
that your hormones are probably far out the window, while mine are still
inside me :) I would never have initiated the holocaust if someone else
hadn't started it, by the way.
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power
7:13 p.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
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7:34 p.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
Date sent: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 01:13:13 +0100 (BST)
Send reply to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
From: ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: OT: Welfare state morality
Snip!
Hmmm... OK, so I've been learning about computers for about 23 years now
(ouch? really that long???), but I had to start somewhere. I guess I just
wanted to learn. It still doesn't explain why people prefer destroying
something to creating something.
That is ever-present paradox we have to deal with daily.
I kept all the bolts and screws, doodads in 2 appox 1.5L plastic
wide-mouth screw-on cap. Same here, didn't have right nut to
mount the 701C HD socket properly till found it in that container.
I can vouch for that, happened to me few times before I wised up
and carefully pick what to save.
I really don't understand this love of breaking
things.
I don't have the expertise that you do, nor the time to do learn. I'm
fed up with the piles of crud that surround me, which
I store because I
might need it someday, but actually never end up using. There's also the
issue
Of course if you throw something out, you can bet you'll need it the next
day? realise and go out and recover it from the bin]
-tony
Laughs... take that lesson well everyone! I lost a TV remote this
way! It mysteriously walked off and didn't realize it is in that bin
when I took grabage out. Oh, any relining and couch can eat the
tasty remote. *CRUNCH!* Happened to friend who was searching
for bits of parts till I visited there on vacation and helped him to
recover parts by inverting and thumping hard that recliner that and
there till parts drops out. Remote came out fine after replacing all
LEDs and parts in place.
Wizard
16 Apr
16 Apr
3:17 a.m.
New subject: Recliners by Iron Mountain
Laughs... take that lesson well everyone! I lost a TV
remote this
way! It mysteriously walked off and didn't realize it is in that bin
when I took grabage out. Oh, any relining and couch can eat the
tasty remote. *CRUNCH!* Happened to friend who was searching
for bits of parts till I visited there on vacation and helped him to
recover parts by inverting and thumping hard that recliner that and
there till parts drops out. Remote came out fine after replacing all
LEDs and parts in place.
One of the items I prized from my high school graduation was a solid silver
very nice looking pen. I kept it safe for a few years, then lost it. Seven
years later I found it while giving a recliner a final shake out prior to
goodwill.
I once dropped a doorlock key in our Volvo 145 wagon, and NEVER found it.
When I moved out of my parents house my mom let a string of people stay in
my room. One day while visiting I noticed one of my Lowe Alpspitz hiking
boots that cost $185 a pair in 1970 sitting in the trash. It was more than
10 years later that I finally found the other boot.
Anyone that thinks I might toss some computer stuff, just doesn't know me.
3:44 p.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
> I have been fascinated by the destructive angst
of North American kids and
>have equivicated it to powerlessness and a reaction against a materialistic
>society but have still watched in awe as some project kids gleefully reduce
>an auto to meaningless junk. If it was my own kids I would kick shit out of
>them and realise I knew them not.
My rising familiarity with technology past and present
leads me to
question whether it wasn't meaningless junk before...seriously, if these
kids didn't own the car, they have a bigger problem, and should probably
get a sound beating. If it was their car, I can quite understand their
desire to release their exasperation. Isn't it better to smash a car than
a person? I guess you have lived a good life, and so have I, but even I
sometimes feel like nothing matters anymore, I'm so frustrated. And for
people living in the projects, it must be so much more serious.
I can understand nothing, I'll just see people without proper
'education' (just learning numbers and names are not education).
If s.o. is able to destroy a thing 'just for fun' the barrier
is low to hurt people - He hasn't learned to controll himself
anyway. No matter how much frustration. Loosing controll is not
tolerable in any circumstances.
For one thing, home-baked bread is much less boring
than factory-made
bread.
Just BTW - speaking of home-made bread: Do you refer to this
bread machine stuff over in the US - I can't see any quality
in there - no difference - I'll prefere German Factory bread
before almost any US creation (with an exception - A hod dog
bun with a frank or any kind of Habmurger :))
Gruss
H.
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Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
2:16 p.m.
New subject: OT: Welfare state morality
On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Hans Franke wrote:
anyway. No matter how much frustration. Loosing
controll is not
tolerable in any circumstances.
You talk as if people were designed to fit into the western
'rational/romantic' framework of behavior. This framework approaches the
truth, but sometimes they separate. Surely, you've lost control at one
point or another: my smashing the machines wasn't really a loss of
control, it was pretty much voluntary. The smashing of cars isn't losing
control: it is just that these people are so frustrated that they don't
care anymore. I know that it's difficult to sympathize with feelings that
you aren't experiencing, but try anyway.
Just BTW - speaking of home-made bread: Do you refer to
this
bread machine stuff over in the US - I can't see any quality
I don't recall eating bread machine bread. I'm sure that you've tasted the
soft sliced white sponges that bear the name of 'bread' around here. I
haven't eaten those for a long time, I always eat real bread made somewhat
in keeping with Slavic/Russian recipies, made in a New York factory. It
may not be as good as bread in Europe, but it's better than what most
people eat.
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power
14 Apr
14 Apr
10:01 p.m.
On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 jpero(a)cgocable.net wrote:
Please don't forget to also mention any Apple/Mac stuff to be thrown
away.
<<<John>>>
I had to rescue an Everex Step 386/25 with yellow
diagnostic
display and few other "useful" junk. Very interesting features
designed into that everex thing: 256K cache, can handle up to
64MB and few things in it. That "junk" came from a douated
government stuff piled high in LARGE amounts enough to fill at
least 2 full length trucks at high school who have to toss them what
left out too after finished their cherrypicking them for their uses.
OK, I'll post weekly lists of stuff to be thrown away. I will charge
1.2*(cost of shipping). However, I can assure you that there is nothing
'interesting' being thrown away. This is all plain vanilla stuff. There
are some interesting things there (a bunch of dual-486 ISA cards) which
are being kept :)
10:27 p.m.
Date sent: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:20:30 -0400 (EDT)
Send reply to: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
From: Max Eskin <max82(a)surfree.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: OT: Re: Time to declare State of Massachusetts the ENEMY! Hey!
Originally to: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Hi Max,
OK, I'll post weekly lists of stuff to be thrown
away. I will charge
1.2*(cost of shipping). However, I can assure you that there is nothing
'interesting' being thrown away. This is all plain vanilla stuff. There
are some interesting things there (a bunch of dual-486 ISA cards) which
are being kept :)
Well, that sort of these I'd love to have and some CPU's little things.
But we have no idea what it's there so thanks for your listing here
next time around.
That is how we does because others keeps lookout on them and X
1.2 charge is not bad too! But I hope most are under 20.
Whew, yeah, if those is mostly boring no name peecees, fine and
big fun to do. But if they're special, branded machines even it's
real peecees stuff doesn't deserve being stomped under one's foot.
In fact, I'm still searching for certain parts for some of my machines
and to stock up on.
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is
Power
Wizard
4:43 p.m.
On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 SUPRDAVE(a)aol.com wrote:
that was a rather stupid thing to do. All of those
computers could have been
of some use, if not to just be salvaged for parts to revive other computers.
Everybody here is _swamped_ with computers. We get them faster than we can
offload them. If we refuse them, somebody else will throw them away. We
did remove all valuable parts, of course.
--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power
9393
days inactive
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67 comments
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participants (24)
-
a.kotsenos＠rca.ac.uk -
a2k＠one.net -
allisonp＠world.std.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
arfonrg＠texas.net -
at258＠osfn.org -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dastar＠ncal.verio.com -
donm＠cts.com -
ds_spenc＠alcor.concordia.ca -
geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au -
Hans.Franke＠mch20.sbs.de -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jim＠calico.litterbox.com -
jpero＠cgocable.net -
jruschme＠exit109.com -
jruschme＠hiway1.exit109.com -
lemay＠cs.umn.edu -
lwalker＠mail.interlog.com -
max82＠surfree.com -
mcquiggi＠sfu.ca -
mikeford＠netwiz.net -
pechter＠pechter.dyndns.org -
SUPRDAVE＠aol.com