16 Feb
2014
16 Feb
'14
5:56 p.m.
From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>
On 13 February 2014 19:15, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
> As far as I know, the Win9x "make a boot
floppy" is essentially just
> a "format /s".
No, it isn't.
Yes it is.
A Win9x boot floppy contains a menu-driven CONFIG.SYS
and AUTOEXEC.BAT
files, allowing loading with CD drivers, creates a RAM disk and
unpacks a CAB file full of useful commands for emergency system
recovery to that RAM disk and more.
None of which is required to create a boot disk. I say this as someone who
routinely does it, not as someone who Googled up a MS knowledgebase article
and didn't understand that it was about creating a startup disk, not a
simple boot disk.
16 Feb
16 Feb
6:52 p.m.
On 02/16/2014 05:56 PM, Ken Seefried wrote:
None of which is required to create a boot disk. I
say this as someone who
routinely does it, not as someone who Googled up a MS knowledgebase article
and didn't understand that it was about creating a startup disk, not a
simple boot disk.
For what it's worth, when I install Win9x, I find it simplest just to
create a DOS 7.x boot floppy with the appropriate CD-ROM driver, MSCDEX,
FDISK, FORMAT a perhaps a text editor on it. That allows me to
partition, format and start the Win9x setup without fuss. It's handy to
keep a USB floppy drive around for those system without a legacy floppy
interface.
--Chuck
17 Feb
17 Feb
7:26 a.m.
On 17 February 2014 02:52, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
For what it's worth, when I install Win9x, I find
it simplest just to create
a DOS 7.x boot floppy with the appropriate CD-ROM driver, MSCDEX, FDISK,
FORMAT a perhaps a text editor on it. That allows me to partition, format
and start the Win9x setup without fuss. It's handy to keep a USB floppy
drive around for those system without a legacy floppy interface.
Sure, that works too, but since Win98 at least (and I think 95 as
well) will do it for you, there was no need to make your own.
--
Liam Proven * Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk * GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com * Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 * Cell: +44 7939-087884
9:05 a.m.
On 02/17/2014 07:26 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
Sure, that works too, but since Win98 at least (and I
think 95 as
well) will do it for you, there was no need to make your own.
I just keep the thing around as a self-extracting image, so it's no big
thing. Just a minute or two and I'm good to go.
--Chuck
9:17 a.m.
On 17 February 2014 17:05, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
I just keep the thing around as a self-extracting
image, so it's no big
thing. Just a minute or two and I'm good to go.
*These* days, oh yes, definitely. Then, not so much. Well, I found, anyway.
--
Liam Proven * Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk * GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com * Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 * Cell: +44 7939-087884
11:01 a.m.
On 17 February 2014 17:50, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
I'm not following. I have self-extracting boot
floppies made in 1997 still
on my system.
I used to be a field engineer. I needed tools with me, on-site.
In 1997 I could not rely on having an Internet connection, let alone
broadband, at the client's site or in my office. I could not rely on
having a working computer to download and make an image, or having
tools to write an image. So I took ready-made disks with me, and if I
was in an office with multiple PCs and caught without my boot disks,
all I needed was a Win98 PC and a blank disk to have a ready-to-go
boot disk with CHKDSK, FDISK, FORMAT, SYS etc. all ready to run
courtesy of the system-disk-creation tool right there in Windows
Setup.
*Now* I can just download one and write it. If I don't have an
image-writing tool, I can download one of them, too.
In practice, I tended to tweak the MS disk a little, adding things
like SMARTDRV, mouse support, a UK keyboard, DOSKEY and I think XCOPY
and removing some README and help files.
Sure, I could have built my own and in the pre-Win9x days, I did, but
after the OS will obligingly make you one, why bother?
--
Liam Proven * Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk * GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com * Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 * Cell: +44 7939-087884
1:42 p.m.
On 02/17/2014 11:01 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
On 17 February 2014 17:50, Chuck Guzis <cclist at
sydex.com> wrote:
1997? Golly. In 1994, I sold IBM a self-extracting program for their
support BBS. It could run on either OS/2 or DOS (or NT).
So I suppose your employer, in 1997 didn't allow you laptops or modems
either? As a point of interest, 1997 was the date of the *last*
update of the program delivered to IBM. (You can still find the files on
the web).
Who was your employer? EMCC, perchance?
--Chuck
I'm not following. I have self-extracting
boot floppies made in 1997 still
on my system.
I used to be a field engineer. I needed tools with me, on-site.
In 1997 I could not rely on having an Internet connection, let alone
broadband, at the client's site or in my office.
3 p.m.
On 17 February 2014 21:42, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
1997? Golly. In 1994, I sold IBM a self-extracting
program for their
support BBS. It could run on either OS/2 or DOS (or NT).
So I suppose your employer, in 1997 didn't allow you laptops or modems
either? As a point of interest, 1997 was the date of the *last* update of
the program delivered to IBM. (You can still find the files on the web).
Who was your employer? EMCC, perchance?
By 1997, my employer was... me.
Your point, exactly?
--
Liam Proven * Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk * GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com * Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 * Cell: +44 7939-087884
10:36 p.m.
On 2/17/2014 9:56 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 02/17/2014 03:00 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
I still have my laptops from 1997. First one was from the 80's
sometime, a DG One, which I was glad to find a home for. then a Toshiba
3100sx. IT had the advantage of having two full ISA slots in a fairly
compact package that could run our full development board set.
There are some 17" nonames i have with Pentiums that I need to get into
that also have ISA slots and a full set of PC ports. If you get mugged,
you could beat the mugger to death with those things.
First self employed unit I had was a Compaq portable III. Full
workstation on it at home.
Jim
By 1997, my employer was... me.
Your point, exactly?
It just seems that in 1997 being self-employed and doing field calls
(I assume that you did) and not having a laptop was, well, strange.
--Chuck
11:22 p.m.
On 02/17/2014 10:36 PM, jim s wrote:
First self employed unit I had was a Compaq portable
III. Full
workstation on it at home.
Mine was about 1988--a Gridlite 80C86-equipped job with a 20MB
Prairietek hard drive. Not bad for what it was, but like all old
battery-powered laptops, the display was really awful.
I think I still have a Dell P90 from the 90s somewhere running Win95,
but I haven't powered it up in years. Display was color, but still awful.
--Chuck
18 Feb
18 Feb
2:36 p.m.
On 18 February 2014 05:56, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
It just seems that in 1997 being self-employed and
doing field calls (I
assume that you did) and not having a laptop was, well, strange.
I sometimes took one, but laptops are (or were, then) relatively big
and heavy & I could not assume connectivity. It was far simpler and
lighter to carry a small toolkit and a zip-up pouch of floppies
containing essential tools and drivers. Later this was supplemented
with a CD, then a wallet of CDs, then the floppies got pensioned off.
Later, it shrank to a USB key. Now I rarely use that - most stuff can
be grabbed online, but it's still handy to have.
--
Liam Proven * Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk * GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com * Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 * Cell: +44 7939-087884
3:30 p.m.
On 02/18/2014 02:36 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
I sometimes took one, but laptops are (or were, then)
relatively big
and heavy & I could not assume connectivity. It was far simpler and
lighter to carry a small toolkit and a zip-up pouch of floppies
containing essential tools and drivers. Later this was supplemented
with a CD, then a wallet of CDs, then the floppies got pensioned off.
Later, it shrank to a USB key. Now I rarely use that - most stuff can
be grabbed online, but it's still handy to have.
Probably not much different from my jumping on a plane with Sansonite
briefcase full of 2400' 9 (and 7)-track tapes in the 70s. I've flown on
an AF general's plane for the purpose of transporting several 844 disk
packs also.
A laptop was a great improvement.
But you do what you have to.
--Chuck
3:46 p.m.
Probably not much different from my jumping on a plane
with Sansonite
briefcase full of 2400' 9 (and 7)-track tapes in the 70s. I've flown on an
AF general's plane for the purpose of transporting several 844 disk packs
also.
Someone once told me "never underestimate the bandwidth contained
within a station wagon crammed full of DLT tapes."
Figure a trunk-load of 20Gb tapes would be maybe 300 tapes. So maybe
5-6TB traveling at 65 mph between data centers.....
3:57 p.m.
On Feb 18, 2014, at 6:46 PM, Jonathan Katz <jon at jonworld.com> wrote:
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a supertanker filled with DVD-R disks... Perhaps an
exabyte, latency a week or two.
paul
Probably not
much different from my jumping on a plane with Sansonite
briefcase full of 2400' 9 (and 7)-track tapes in the 70s. I've flown on an
AF general's plane for the purpose of transporting several 844 disk packs
also.
Someone once told me "never underestimate the bandwidth contained
within a station wagon crammed full of DLT tapes."
Figure a trunk-load of 20Gb tapes would be maybe 300 tapes. So maybe
5-6TB traveling at 65 mph between data centers..... 
4:27 p.m.
On 2/18/2014 4:57 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
On Feb 18, 2014, at 6:46 PM, Jonathan Katz <jon at jonworld.com> wrote:
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a supertanker filled with DVD-R disks... Perhaps an
exabyte, latency a week or two.
paul
Ben's rule: Smaller transistors means smaller bytes, so more are needed
for Zero's and One's of yesterday. :-)
Probably
not much different from my jumping on a plane with Sansonite
briefcase full of 2400' 9 (and 7)-track tapes in the 70s. I've flown on an
AF general's plane for the purpose of transporting several 844 disk packs
also.
Someone once told me "never underestimate the bandwidth contained
within a station wagon crammed full of DLT tapes."
Figure a trunk-load of 20Gb tapes would be maybe 300 tapes. So maybe
5-6TB traveling at 65 mph between data centers.....
4:04 p.m.
On 02/18/2014 03:46 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote:
Someone once told me "never underestimate the
bandwidth contained
within a station wagon crammed full of DLT tapes."
That oft-repeated chestnut is attributed to Andy Tannenbaum and
pre-dates DLT, I think.
I don't know if it originated with Tannenbaum, however.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Andrew_S._Tanenbaum
--Chuck
19 Feb
19 Feb
9:49 a.m.
From: Chuck Guzis
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 4:04 PM
On 02/18/2014 03:46 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote:
> Someone once told me "never underestimate the
bandwidth contained
> within a station wagon crammed full of DLT tapes."
That oft-repeated chestnut is attributed to Andy
Tannenbaum and
pre-dates DLT, I think.
I don't know if it originated with Tannenbaum,
however.
That page says _Computer Networks_, 4th ed. The first edition was in 1981 or
so, and may have included the same proverb.
However, I heard this in the 1970s in the context of transferring data between
IBM 370 architecture data centers (and it was "mag tapes" in that context).
Just another folkloric data point.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
10:38 a.m.
On 02/19/2014 09:49 AM, Rich Alderson wrote:
However, I heard this in the 1970s in the context of
transferring data between
IBM 370 architecture data centers (and it was "mag tapes" in that context).
Just another folkloric data point.
Yup. I'm relatively sure that I heard it or some other similar thing
during the 70s also. As I recall, Tanenbaum would use the example in
his presentations, but the CN 4th Ed. may be the first time it occurred
in print--which, after all, is the gold standard for quotation collectors.
--Chuck
18 Feb
18 Feb
5:19 p.m.
On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 06:46:35PM -0500, Jonathan Katz wrote:
These days, make it LTO6, which is 2.5 TB uncompressed, so around 750 TB
in total. Even with seriously fat pipes, that takes a bit of time to copy
over the network.
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
Probably not
much different from my jumping on a plane with Sansonite
briefcase full of 2400' 9 (and 7)-track tapes in the 70s. I've flown on an
AF general's plane for the purpose of transporting several 844 disk packs
also.
Someone once told me "never underestimate the bandwidth contained
within a station wagon crammed full of DLT tapes."
Figure a trunk-load of 20Gb tapes would be maybe 300 tapes. So maybe
5-6TB traveling at 65 mph between data centers..... 
19 Feb
19 Feb
3:23 a.m.
On 19 February 2014 02:19, Alexander Schreiber <als at thangorodrim.de> wrote:
These days, make it LTO6, which is 2.5 TB
uncompressed, so around 750 TB
in total. Even with seriously fat pipes, that takes a bit of time to copy
over the network.
Relevant Randall Munroe analysis of FedEx bandwidth:
https://what-if.xkcd.com/31/
--
Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org ::
http://signalsprocessed.blogspot.com
18 Feb
18 Feb
9:01 a.m.
On 2/17/14 3:42 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 02/17/2014 11:01 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
Um. In *2003* I couldn't rely on having an Internet connection
on-site. My laptop was equipped with modem, ethernet and token ring.
Pre ubiquitous wireless and Internet phones, a lot of facilities I
worked in did not allow random contractors to jack random laptops into
their networks, and quite a few ran phone systems that were not
modem-friendly.
I vote with Liam on this one. Going into a job expecting to download
stuff was always a bad idea.
Doc
On 17 February 2014 17:50, Chuck Guzis <cclist
at sydex.com> wrote:
1997? Golly. In 1994, I sold IBM a self-extracting program for their
support BBS. It could run on either OS/2 or DOS (or NT).
So I suppose your employer, in 1997 didn't allow you laptops or modems
either? As a point of interest, 1997 was the date of the *last*
update of the program delivered to IBM. (You can still find the files on
the web).
Who was your employer? EMCC, perchance? I'm not following. I have self-extracting
boot floppies made in 1997
still
on my system.
I used to be a field engineer. I needed tools with me, on-site.
In 1997 I could not rely on having an Internet connection, let alone
broadband, at the client's site or in my office.
17 Feb
17 Feb
7:25 a.m.
On 17 February 2014 01:56, Ken Seefried <seefriek at gmail.com> wrote:
From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>
On 13 February 2014 19:15, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
Don't bother trying to correct me when you have not understood what I
am talking about.
Go back to the start of the thread and reread it.
Hint:
* Q: I have a Win95 CD but it won't boot
* A: It's not bootable; you need a bootable FD with CD drivers; get
one on site X
* A: There is an image of a bootable FD with drivers on the CD
* A: Ah, well, since Win9x can make such a disk, that makes sense.
* Q: How can Win9x could make such a disk?
* A: here is a web reference
* A: You don't know how to make a bootable floppy, this is how you do
it, you are a fool and wrong
That last is you and it would appear that you do not know what we are
actually talking about here.
You do not understand th
--
Liam Proven * Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk * GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com * Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 * Cell: +44 7939-087884
> As far as I know, the Win9x "make a boot
floppy" is essentially just
> a "format /s".
No, it isn't.
Yes it is.
A Win9x boot floppy contains a menu-driven
CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT
files, allowing loading with CD drivers, creates a RAM disk and
unpacks a CAB file full of useful commands for emergency system
recovery to that RAM disk and more.
None of which is required to create a boot disk. I say this as someone who
routinely does it, not as someone who Googled up a MS knowledgebase article
and didn't understand that it was about creating a startup disk, not a
simple boot disk.
3741
days inactive
3743
days old
23 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
als＠thangorodrim.de -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
cclist＠sydex.com -
doc＠vaxen.net -
joachim.thiemann＠gmail.com -
jon＠jonworld.com -
jws＠jwsss.com -
lproven＠gmail.com -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
RichA＠LivingComputerMuseum.org -
seefriek＠gmail.com