13 May
1998
13 May
'98
8:02 a.m.
In a message dated 98-05-13 10:41:03 EDT, you write:
<< Actually, David Greelish (of "historically brewed" and the
"classic
computing society") is attempting just such an online price guide. His
efforts so far can be seen on:
http://members.aol.com/mtpro/ >>
what a joke! i just webbed there not long ago and checked his price guide. an
H89 for $400? wow, i got mine for free! a pcjr for $50? i cant even give one
away! a trs80 model 1 for $200? yea, right! from his "prices" i could sell
part of my collection for over $1500. the list is quite sparse though. what
about my osi or my portable pc or mac512k with a hyperdrive or my tandy 102 or
atari portfolio? i seldom take seriously anyone who attempts to put market
prices on old computers. for some light reading and humour goto the above url
and check for yourself.
david
13 May
13 May
9:50 a.m.
On Wed, 13 May 1998, SUPRDAVE wrote:
what a joke! i just webbed there not long ago and
checked his price guide. an
H89 for $400? wow, i got mine for free! a pcjr for $50? i cant even give one
away! a trs80 model 1 for $200? yea, right! from his "prices" i could sell
part of my collection for over $1500. the list is quite sparse though. what
about my osi or my portable pc or mac512k with a hyperdrive or my tandy 102 or
atari portfolio? i seldom take seriously anyone who attempts to put market
prices on old computers. for some light reading and humour goto the above url
and check for yourself.
Allow me to provide a reality check. I'm assuming the following is just
the computer (IE. no monitor or peripherals where applicable)
MTPRO Closer to Reality
Apple ][+: $50 $10-$15
Apple ][e: $80 $15-$20
Commodore Vic-20: $30 $5-$10 (many of these were produced)
Commodore 64: $20 $5-$10 (ditto X 100)
TRS-80 model II: $200 Don't have good guess but $200 way too high
TRS-80 model III: $120 $15-$25 (many made)
TRS-80 model IV: $120 (ditto)
Compaq Portable: $100 Pfeh. $15
Atari 800: $30 $5-$15
TI 99/4a: $30 Ugh. Try Free-$5 (99/4a's and VIC-20's were
used as foot soldiers in the price war between
TI and Commodore in the early 80s...tons made)
IBM PC model 5150: $100 Please. Hundreds of thousands made. Free.
Macintosh 128K: $200 $50-$100. Not that hard to find.
Amiga 1000: $100 $25-$35
Sinclair ZX81: $60 $5
Timex/Sinclair 1000: $50 ZX81 and TS-1000 are the same thing basically.
IBM PCjr: $50 $15-$20 with monitor
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
[Last web page update: 05/11/98]
11:43 a.m.
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10:57 a.m.
I am quite surprised that many of the systems listed
are considered
by some to be "classics" already. Many of them I consider pure
unadulterated junk. To avoid offending others, though, I won't
mention these systems by name :-)
Oh, c'mon. Be a man. Name names.
At least the inevitable flame war would be fun.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
12:09 p.m.
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2:02 p.m.
On Wed, 13 May 1998, Tim Shoppa wrote:
Oh, OK: The ZX81. Yeah, it's cute, but it's
such complete cheap
plastic junk so through-and-through. I will give Clive Sinclair
points for packaging ingenuity, though he can't hold a candle
to HP or Tektronix in packaging with an intention to enhance long-term
usability and maintainability. The HP9100B is an absolutely beautiful
job of packaging and integration; many of the Tektronix portable
tube scopes are the same.
I think the ZX81 was intended to be affordable, and many people owe their
start in computers to Mr. Sinclair for producing a computer that could be
bought on a limited budget.
Besides, how can he value the ZX81 at $75 when
original kits are
available for less money?
He can't, unless he's a moron. I hate to have to use such strong words to
describe the guy...ok, no I don't. His attempts at placing "values" on
these not so rare, and in many cases, very common machines is absurd. He
needs to get out more often (and in a major metropolitan area, not the
backwater he seems to base his scarcity judgements on) and get a feel for
the real market of old computers, rather than just going by the bloated
prices that the online auctions produce.
The best transaction I ever made was when I traded the
ZX80 off for
a Model 33 ASR - complete with two boxes full of unpunched tape and
several cartons filled with rolls of canary paper.
Well, if you're going for rarity points, I've seen less ZX80s than I have
ASR33s, for what its worth.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
[Last web page update: 05/11/98]
4:03 p.m.
I think the ZX81 was intended to be affordable, and
many people owe their
start in computers to Mr. Sinclair for producing a computer that could be
bought on a limited budget.
Yes, but the instructions for the kit, amongst the worst ever written, are
inexcusable!
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
5:40 p.m.
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4:50 p.m.
It all depends on what you're comparing them to.
Consider most PC-clone
"no-name" hardware, which often doesn't come with any manufacturers name,
much less any instructions!
No, the Sinclair machine takes the cake. While building the critter, the
instructions drifted between the three builds (for video - NTSC, PAL, or
SECAM) _without_ telling you.
The instruction book looked nice - almost like a Heathkit. They obviously
put money and effort into it - just they had a moron write it up!
On the other hand, I spent many nights reading
Heathkit construction
manuals for things I never owned - and learned a *lot*.
Considering that before any new kit was released, it was tried out on an
unsuspecting secretary until it was refined so a completely ignorant
person could get the things working, that is no suprise.
Does anyone have a Heath _analog_ computer? I never saw one, but they do
exist.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
9:30 p.m.
New subject: Another EBay absurdity [Heathkit Analog computers]
On Wed, 13 May 1998, William Donzelli wrote:
Does anyone have a Heath _analog_ computer? I never
saw one, but they do
exist.
Well, that _Dc Analog Computers_ book I bragged about finding a couple
weeks ago has photos and descriptions of a couple Heath analog computers
circa 1952.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
[Last web page update: 05/11/98]
10:51 p.m.
New subject: Heathkit Analog computers
On Wed, 13 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote:
On Wed, 13 May 1998, William Donzelli wrote:
I've seen one, and I've been trying to find one for myself for a while
now. The one I saw is on display at Advanced Computer Products in Santa
Ana. IIRC, a metal box comprised of a patch panel and some knobs.
(searching the web.) Ah, here it is, the EC-1 from 1962:
http://www.cyberventure.com/heathkit/computers/ec-1.html
-- Doug
Does anyone have a Heath _analog_ computer? I
never saw one, but they do
exist.
Well, that _Dc Analog Computers_ book I bragged about finding a couple
weeks ago has photos and descriptions of a couple Heath analog computers
circa 1952. 
14 May
14 May
9:02 a.m.
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13 May
13 May
5:57 p.m.
William Donzelli wrote:
Come on now, Bill -- I assume you've read an Ashton-Tate dBase
manual in your time. Or a Chrysler service manual. The Sinclair
instructions were sufficient unto the day. Hell, consider the
documentation IBM provided about their hardware to the "end user"
in that era pre-PC (and the early PC docs weren't much to write
home about).
--
Ward Griffiths
They say that politics makes strange bedfellows.
Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else.
Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_
I think the ZX81 was intended to be affordable,
and many people owe their
start in computers to Mr. Sinclair for producing a computer that could be
bought on a limited budget.
Yes, but the instructions for the kit, amongst the worst ever written, are
inexcusable!
7:24 p.m.
Come on now, Bill -- I assume you've read an
Ashton-Tate dBase
manual in your time. Or a Chrysler service manual. The Sinclair
instructions were sufficient unto the day. Hell, consider the
documentation IBM provided about their hardware to the "end user"
in that era pre-PC (and the early PC docs weren't much to write
home about).
Sufficient? Ha! These bad docs were for the kits! How would someone know
that resistor X goes in position Y for NTSC, but position Z for PAL and
SECAM? At least with flaws in software manuals, you can spot flaws simply
by seeing the difference in what the book says and how the program reacts.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
14 May
14 May
11:16 a.m.
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6:20 p.m.
New subject: Computer Values, was Re: Another EBay absurdity
I am one of those fortunate souls who have been collecting long enough
that people tend to just drop off stuff on my front porch. Yesterday, I
found a variety of older motherboards, etc. sitting out there including
one of the Intel 386 "upgrades" for the AT. The day before, I was given
a TRS-80 Model 4P and a Coco 2. IMNSHO, the values of all computers will
vary greatly depending on the knowledge and experience of the person
doing the valuation. Hmmm, sounds just like *every* other form of
collecting.
I, for one, do like to see what E-Bay is doing. I kept track for a
while of the people who were bidding on the stuff, and there were a
number of people there who were collectors. Last year, I was bidding on
a Sol-20, and the guy who outbid me won the bid at $800 or so. High? I
talked with the guy later on, and the machine was in mint condition, had
all the original documentation, and also included some of the
peripherals. The Altairs that have been sold there are *all* selling
below the prices I have seen for similar systems.
The prices quoted in the last go-around on the web site (don't recall it
off hand) could be high or low depending on a lot of things (condition,
docs, peripherals, etc) that most of us here probably take for granted.
Someone less knowledgeable might well have a different idea of its worth
that members of this list.
FWIW, I tend to value my collection in the millions of dollars. And
that is probably conservative ... if one were to go back in time and
look at what the stuff cost new :).
7:03 p.m.
New subject: Computer Values
On Thu, 14 May 1998, Marvin wrote:
a TRS-80 Model 4P and a Coco 2. IMNSHO, the values of
all computers will
vary greatly depending on the knowledge and experience of the person
doing the valuation. Hmmm, sounds just like *every* other form of
collecting.
I used to collect coins when I was a kid, and the Blue Book (wholesale
values) and Red Book (retail values) were my bibles. Coins had a pretty
good grading system, and you could find fairly reliable production data.
I don't know of anybody that has tried to do anything close to this for
computers.
I, for one, do like to see what E-Bay is doing. I
kept track for a
while of the people who were bidding on the stuff, and there were a
number of people there who were collectors. Last year, I was bidding on
a Sol-20, and the guy who outbid me won the bid at $800 or so. High? I
talked with the guy later on, and the machine was in mint condition, had
all the original documentation, and also included some of the
peripherals. The Altairs that have been sold there are *all* selling
below the prices I have seen for similar systems.
eBay and other online auctions are probably the best gauges of prices
there are, because they represent fairly efficient markets. In fact, some
online auctions that move their own inventory do regression analysis that
tells them more or less what price they can expect to get for any given
item. If somebody were to do the same analysis on person-to-person
auction data, that would be a very good starting place for a price
guide (especially from an auction like Haggle Online that also stores
condition, make, and model information :-).
If you only look at one or two anecdotal transactions, that doesn't tell
you much.
FWIW, I tend to value my collection in the millions of
dollars. And
that is probably conservative ... if one were to go back in time and
look at what the stuff cost new :).
The real question is what value does your insurance company place on your
collect. My guess is that they would value an Apple 1 based on a twenty
year depreciation starting with a $666 basis!
BTW, if, hypothetically, I were to find somebody willing to sell me a
Heathkit EC-1 analog computer in good condition, what value would you
experts assign to it, and what would you base your valuation on?
-- Doug
13 May
13 May
4:11 p.m.
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13 May
13 May
4:59 p.m.
Tim Shoppa wrote:
I am quite surprised that many of the systems listed
are considered
by some to be "classics" already. Many of them I consider pure
unadulterated junk. To avoid offending others, though, I won't
mention these systems by name :-)
Oh, give us a hint. Do they have ISA (or the earlier 8-bit "subset")
buses?
--
Ward Griffiths
They say that politics makes strange bedfellows.
Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else.
Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_
3:59 p.m.
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14 May
14 May
8:20 p.m.
> MTPRO Closer to Reality
> Apple ][e: $80 $15-$20
Try free(like mine) to $15, although
I've seen them go for $20+ even at
swap meets...
> TRS-80 model II: $200 Don't have good
guess but $200 way too high
> TRS-80 model III: $120 $15-$25 (many made)
> TRS-80 model IV: $120 (ditto)
Doesn't seem to matter, the
people who own them know the higher prices and
want to get at LEAST that much...
> Compaq Portable: $100 Pfeh. $15
I'd get one for <$15, but I've yet to see one that cheap. Cheapest so
far
is $50.
> TI 99/4a: $30 Ugh. Try Free-$5
(99/4a's and VIC-20's were
> used as foot soldiers in the price war between
> TI and Commodore in the early 80s...tons made)
Yep... I love mine, although I've had it since they were new...
> IBM PC model 5150: $100 Please. Hundreds of
thousands made. Free.
Laugh it into the ground... Free is the only price. And if
that's not good
enough, I recently picked up a Compaq 386/20 with multisync VGA monitor for
free...Too bad I can't get the &^$&$(@$%#& 3.5" floppy to work.
> Macintosh 128K: $200 $50-$100. Not that
hard to find.
HA! Try free-$10. I think I paid too much for mine at $15. I have
several
512K's and some less-than-functional 128K's I got for free.
Now to add something new to the list... What are the best/worst for RFI?
I'm into ham radio now, so that's a bit of a problem. My Zenith laptop is
horrible, and the Mac LC II isn't too bad but it's monitor(currently the
one I got with the Compaq 386) can be a bit annoying on the air. I'm going
to try my TI-99/4A soon, and I'm not sure what to expect from it. And I
never had any problem when I was using the radio near my PowerMac 6500(with
an Apple 15AV monitor), although the radio equipent moved to the other end
of the attic now...
--------------------------------------------------------------
| http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers |
| http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek |
| Orham(a)qth.net list admin KD7BCY |
--------------------------------------------------------------
8:31 p.m.
New subject: RFI
On Thu, 14 May 1998, John Rollins wrote:
Now to add something new to the list... What are the
best/worst for RFI?
I'm into ham radio now, so that's a bit of a problem. My Zenith laptop is
horrible, and the Mac LC II isn't too bad but it's monitor(currently the
one I got with the Compaq 386) can be a bit annoying on the air. I'm going
to try my TI-99/4A soon, and I'm not sure what to expect from it. And I
never had any problem when I was using the radio near my PowerMac 6500(with
an Apple 15AV monitor), although the radio equipent moved to the other end
of the attic now...
Best? A GRiD TEMPEST (like the GRiDCASE 1537). Not only is it
bullet-proof, but it emits close to zero RFI (to prevent data snooping).
Worst? Anything with a bunch of cables and a wireless modem, I guess.
-- Doug
2:35 p.m.
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13 May
13 May
9:55 a.m.
At 01:02 PM 5/13/98 EDT, you wrote:
what a joke! i just webbed there not long ago and checked his price guide. an
H89 for $400? wow, i got mine for free!
I'll take a stab at this on my web page. Anyone who can summarize
a system in a paragraph in terms of their impression of its rarity,
condition, history, add-ons or completeness, sale date and price,
just send me a private e-mail. I'll categorize them and post the
results. Under construction, as they say... perhaps this will evolve.
Frankly, I think it would be interesting to hear anecdotal evidence
of prices. I'd also find it interesting to know what this "John Keyes Jr."
fellow is going to do with his "haul of the week." :-)
- John
Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>
10:38 a.m.
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9566
days inactive
9568
days old
26 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cpuviani＠IConNet.COM -
dastar＠wco.com -
gram＠cnct.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
marvin＠rain.org -
rexstout＠uswest.net -
rigdonj＠intellistar.net -
shoppa＠alph02.triumf.ca -
SUPRDAVE＠aol.com -
william＠ans.net -
yowza＠yowza.com