13 Apr
2021
13 Apr
'21
3:15 p.m.
I'm slightly amazed at how some eBay sellers react. Take this item:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/154404969351
which the seller had listed as a 'PDP-8 PC05'. I sent the person a message
pointing out that it was a PC04 (as shown by the 4 rocker switches, and the
small backplane - PC05's have a larger one to hold more cards).
They sent a nice peply, but didn't alter their listing!
Well, I hope the bider really is a PDP-8 owner who wants a PC04... :-)
Noel
13 Apr
13 Apr
3:24 p.m.
On 2021-04-13 18:15, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
I'm slightly amazed at how some eBay sellers
react. Take this item:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/154404969351
which the seller had listed as a 'PDP-8 PC05'. I sent the person a message
pointing out that it was a PC04 (as shown by the 4 rocker switches, and the
small backplane - PC05's have a larger one to hold more cards).
They sent a nice peply, but didn't alter their listing!
No surprise there.? I
recall a seller selling a 6 GHz SPARC box (or
somesuch ridiculous frequency).? The chip's rev number was 6.? I pointed
this out with the same reply and inaction.
N.
Well, I hope the bider really is a PDP-8 owner who
wants a PC04... :-)
Noel
3:28 p.m.
On 4/13/21 4:15 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
They sent a nice peply, but didn't alter their
listing!
I've had similar things happen multiple times.
I've also reported some of those auctions to eBay as misinformation.
Though it's been years since I've done so. I don't know if it's
possible, much less convenient to do so now.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
3:49 p.m.
As a very experienced Ebay (and now Etsy!) seller, I can say this...
They sent a nice peply, but didn't alter their
listing!
We don't trust you buyers.
Sellers of collectibles and antiques get bombarded with nitpicks and
corrections. Often these are right, but often they are wrong. And
sometimes it is very clearly intended to lessen the value of the thing
being sold. So unless it is something that can easily and quickly be
researched and confirmed - we sellers will mostly just let things fly,
and let the buyers figure it out.
That being said, if I was the seller of this item and you, Noel, sent
me a comment like this, I would think "Oh, it's Noel, he knows his
stuff. I will deal with this". But if someone I do not know did the
same, I would maybe send a thank you note, think about it for a minute
or so to see if investing a bunch of research time is worth it, and
likely do nothing. Let the buyers figure it out.
--
Will
4:02 p.m.
And that is why there are SNADs! :D
Yes, but remember that the S stands for "Significantly". In Noel's
case, yes, We DECnerds would call that a significant difference, but
probably not to the general computer techie crowd - they would likely
see two almostly completely identical tape readers. The Ebay judge
might go either way.
SNAD gets abused more than you realize. It is a big problem for sellers.
--
Will
4:02 p.m.
On 4/13/21 4:49 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
We don't trust you buyers.
So ... you trust us enough to take our money, but you don't trust us.
Sellers of collectibles and antiques get bombarded
with nitpicks and
corrections. Often these are right, but often they are wrong.
I guess that's unsurprising.
And sometimes it is very clearly intended to lessen
the value of the
thing being sold.
How does the intention behind the message alter the veracity of the message?
So unless it is something that can easily and quickly
be researched
and confirmed - we sellers will mostly just let things fly, and let
the buyers figure it out.
That seems tantamount to selling something that you have good /
reasonable reason to question the accuracy of the listing. This seems
disingenuous to me.
Do you put any comments on the listing of "this description is best
effort" or "buyer is responsible for accuracy"?
That being said, if I was the seller of this item and
you, Noel,
sent me a comment like this, I would think "Oh, it's Noel, he knows
his stuff. I will deal with this". But if someone I do not know did
the same, I would maybe send a thank you note, think about it for a
minute or so to see if investing a bunch of research time is worth it,
and likely do nothing. Let the buyers figure it out.
What constitutes "a bunch of research time"? 1 minute? 5 minutes?
More time than it took to publish the listing?
Is there something that random people submitting corrections can do to
make it easier for you such that you are more likely to accept the
correction and update the listing accordingly?
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
4:29 p.m.
So ... you trust us enough to take our money, but you
don't trust us.
The percentage of crooked and dishonest (and just plain stupid) buyers
on Ebay is far too uncomfortable. Ebay buyers generally often liken
themselves to gleaming polished white marble pillars of truth and
justice in the online market. They are not. Ebay does not provide much
protection anymore. Sellers must protect themselves.
How does the intention behind the message alter the
veracity of the message?
We don't know - it is generally a case by case thing. Sometimes fraud
is *really* obvious, like when a buyer sends a correction that is
clearly wrong, and literally states that the asking price is too high
because of the "mistake".
Do you put any comments on the listing of "this
description is best
effort" or "buyer is responsible for accuracy"?
Do you think anyone reads Terms of Sale? Seriously? Hell, I get buyers
that don't even read the descriptions!
What constitutes "a bunch of research time"?
1 minute? 5 minutes?
More time than it took to publish the listing?
Maybe. Some of us are very busy, and need every 10 minute chunk of
time. Perhaps the ten minutes taken up doing research is not worth as
much as those same ten minutes listing another item.
Is there something that random people submitting
corrections can do to
make it easier for you such that you are more likely to accept the
correction and update the listing accordingly?
Certainly. Citations. Passing a URL through the Ebay system is
trickly, to say the least, but leave an obvious pointer, like "Check
this document 123-456-78 in bitsavers, page 26".
--
Will
4:51 p.m.
On Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 6:15 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote:
I'm slightly amazed at how some eBay sellers
react. Take this item:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/154404969351
which the seller had listed as a 'PDP-8 PC05'. I sent the person a message
pointing out that it was a PC04 (as shown by the 4 rocker switches, and the
small backplane - PC05's have a larger one to hold more cards).
They sent a nice peply, but didn't alter their listing!
Well, I hope the bider really is a PDP-8 owner who wants a PC04... :-)
Noel
Noel,
I went to this guys place and saw the tape reader first hand. Its in
better condition than mine. I was tempted to buy it but I was there to
pick up an asr 33 teletype I bought from him on ebay. He had the Teletype
listed as a ksr, despite the reader right there in the picture. I did not
feel obligated to tell him, I just bought it. He clearly and correctly
documented the mechanical issue with it, despite getting the name of it
wrong. I fixed it this morning before work (related to my cctec post about
separating the keyboard from the printer)
I'd trust him with this reader and the price is reasonable, assuming it
works. He is a general machine repair man, not specifically familiar with
computers. I suppose he was not overly interested in exactly what he was
selling, assuming the buyer should know. His garage workshop is like a
museum. He has a lot of boat motors and interesting gizmos hanging from the
ceiling and on shelves. He has a pdp 8e there too.
After picking up the Teletype Karen and I went tothe Rhode Island Computer
Museum and stayed in Newport for the night. The RICM is chuck full of cool
stuff, warehouse style.
Bill
6:30 p.m.
On 4/13/21 5:51 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
He had the Teletype listed as a ksr, despite the
reader right there
in the picture.
My concern as a buyer is when there is a discrepancy, picture, vs
listing, I have no way of telling which is correct and incorrect. If
the picture is of the item and that's what I want cool. But if the
description is correct and I buy based on the picture I'm going to be
less than happy.
I think the discrepancy is the biggest issue for me. What am I
comfortable doing when there is a discrepancy. Frequently, I end up
moving on to a different auction.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
5:04 p.m.
You probably already did it in your initial contact with him Noel, but I
would think the thing that would make it stand out and make him change it -
tell him a PC05 doesn't connect to a PDP8, it goes with something completely
different (a PDP11 ofc, correct?).
Given that the title says its for a pdp8 (it isn't if it's a PC05).... I bet
the seller would lose a 'not as advertised' battle pretty quickly.
J
6:47 p.m.
On 4/13/2021 5:04 PM, jwest--- via cctalk wrote:
You probably already did it in your initial contact
with him Noel, but I
would think the thing that would make it stand out and make him change it -
tell him a PC05 doesn't connect to a PDP8, it goes with something completely
different (a PDP11 ofc, correct?).
Given that the title says its for a pdp8 (it isn't if it's a PC05).... I bet
the seller would lose a 'not as advertised' battle pretty quickly.
J
I figure they throw in about every keyword they can.? Some take some
time to try, but a lot will throw in keywords to catch searches or watch
lists.? Some will throw in PDP with S-100 and heaven knows what else.
I've gotten good replies for the last few years when I bother. Sometimes
will provide links or other auctions to help them.
There was one guy with an id "vintage" something or other (no idea if
the current guys on ebay are them) but I got a psychotic full length
rant that made me wonder whether the guy was deranged.
I never send suggestions on anything then bid, so he didn't have that
excuse.? Unfortunately he had a lot of stuff, but I blocked him off
after that.
He said he reported me to ebay, so I opened an incident an sent his
deranged rant.? If he did, nothing came of it that I heard.? No hostile
sellers since.
I know a friend who sells on epay a lot an has had some fraud.? One has
to continuously tune to avoid being screwed by ebay or the buyers that
are dishonest.? Makes it complicated for those of us who will make the
buyer's whole as far as the agreed upon deal.
Jim
1348
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billdegnan＠gmail.com -
cctalk＠gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net -
cctalk＠ibm51xx.net -
cym224＠gmail.com -
drb＠msu.edu -
jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
jwsmail＠jwsss.com -
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