Doc wrote: Extortion??? Does the UG have some kind of claim to his time? I'd say it was principled zealotry, not egotism, in Stallman's case. Open source needs a few influential zealots like him, or it would rapidly be co-opted and devolve to the same old shit. I'm not saying he couldn't be more diplomatic, just that we benefit from his intransigence, even if it it's annoying or inconvenient. You never can be quite sure anyone understands open source unless they grok Stallman. jbdigriz

On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: Eeewww! And yes, I meant in the late '80s... If I do something vitally productive and significant, and then become senile and/or insane, I hope that the world doesn't _keep_ treating my pronouncements as vitally significant. I'm not implying that RMS is either senile or insane, but I think it's an accurate analogy. Doc

James B. DiGriz wrote: P.S. Even those who disagree vehemently with Stallman respect his integrity, even if it's hard for some of them to understand his arguments (Not his fault, they include concepts difficult for some to grasp, which may be a blessing, all things considered, when you think about it.) You can't say he hasn't put his money where his mouth is. As for unflattering hearsay regarding his habits of personal hygiene, I don't see how that's relevant to his ideas or work, even if true. Nor does it reflect well on the repeater, in any case. Frankly, I could care less. Why should I? jbdigriz

I'll throw in with this. I get a lot of grief from the GNU crowd because the free software I release is under my own freeware license, not GPL (everyone else apparently couldn't care less). One particular pighead basically sent me a flame saying I was a moron when I tried to explain to him my issues with the GPL model and how I feel it doesn't adequately protect author rights. This is a wonderful way to talk a software author into changing his license terms. :-/ Heaven forbid GPL should be impeachable! The GNU movement has done a lot of good, but it is far from a panacea. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu -- A dean is to faculty as a hydrant is to a dog. -- Alfred Kahn --------------

Doc wrote: Nah, I understand that Stallman and the FSF are under constant probing for any sign of a capitulatory mood, for any sign of tolerance for being made irrelvant, since they are using IP against itself, and a lot of people stand to gain at everyone else's expense if they can crack that wall. That's the grounds for the GNU/linux controversy, and no doubt why he makes demands that are taken as overreaching to UG's that want him to speak. I don't envy his position. He has a point, too, even if you think it's overblown. Enough so that a lot of people would prefer that it be kept between the lines. Kinda hard to do that when people single you out for public comments about your personal hygiene. A lot of people *don't*, or maybe don't want to understand all this and see any intransigence that can be portrayed as irrelevant or anti-social in some way as a sign of compulsive, fascistic, control-freak tendencies and ego problems. There are people in the open-source movement even who think open-source (what Stallman calls "free software") should just mean giving code away, period, with no restrictions. In an ideal world, that might work. In the real world, this just allows free code to come under proprietary claims, exploiting the work of countless benefactors against their wishes. So you're working at cross-purposes. I'm the last thing from a bigot, Chief, and I've paid the price to say that. And I call it Linux, too, while recognizing, as was pointed out, that in the case of Debian, GNU/Linux is indeed more correct on technical grouds. jbdigriz

Sellam Ismail wrote: Sellam, given UCITA, DMCA, SSSCA/DBTPA, Sen Hollings new "privacy" bill, , and Sen. Burns spam bill., and on, and on, with more every day, as well as the continuing affront to freedom and progress of the proprietary software model, I could care less if Richard Stallman collects his toe jam in a jar, lets it ferment, and spreads it on a sandwich for lunch. Maybe so. And maybe he should be commended for his restraint. jbdigriz

Sellam Ismail wrote: Let's dispense with the messianic crap. That's going off the rail, right there. It's more like he's the champion of ideas and an architect of a system it's in all our best interests to support, or at least understand. Stallman publishes his reasoning and opinions publicly for all to see. Maybe he doesn't care for the hero mantle (or yoke) that those who constantly psychologize him keep trying to put on his shoulders so they can criticize it. I'd probably run for my life, if I was constantly hounded by people wanting some kind of emotional reassurance, hand-holding, or attention from "the great man." Or I might try to annoy people into leaving me the hell alone if they won't take the time or trouble to do their homework. You may be right that there are more effective or eloquent spokespersons for open source in general. Eric Raymond does come immediately to mind. However, Stallman is clear, logical, and consistent, if idiosyncratic. The FSF doesn't concern itself directly with issues that the EFF, say, would take up, of course, nor should it. If worst comes to worst, though, the GPL may be the last line of defense, and difficult to dislodge without forcibly exposing the stacked deck of cards for what it is, and rubbing people's faces in a truly disgusting mess. No one's ever made a good case to me for ever considering hypocrisy or many other of the political virtues to be appropriate to adjust to in any way whatsoever. Only the reverse. Pretty sure that kind of thinking had a big role in putting my father in an early grave, in fact. YMMV, as they say. jbdigriz

Sellam Ismail wrote: I think you're mischaracterizing both his motivations and his behavior. Nevertheless, it's unfortunate the nomenclature controversy arose, and I never said it couldn't have been handled better, on all sides. way too That is a contemptible slur, sir, and if you were here, I'd ask you to step outside. Just because someone considers an issue important, that does not mean they are "excessively emotional". What the hell is that supposed to mean, anyway? All I ask of my emotions is that they be valid. Feel free to pursue this off-list if you wish. It certainly doesn't need to be continued here. jbdigriz