My assertions are: 1) due to the lack of consensus on fundamental terms, such as what IS a "personal computer", that each person choosing a "FIRST PC" will create their own set of "requirements", and thus will have a very subjective choice. 2) Virtually nobody will ever acknowledge that their choices ARE "subjective"; therefore they will insist that anyone coming up with alternative choices are "wrong". _I_ posses the only RIGHT answer. 3) Since the majority of people will intermingle their personal needs with the "requirements", therefore their concept of which was the "first" will be intertwined with which one they first considered for themselves. 4) As Richard mentioned, "where you sit determines what you see". Therefore, MOST people's choices will be based on which system they first saw advertised that met THEIR requirements. 5) As Sam pointed out, it is completely futile to continue the discussion. Doug's site is well researched and MAGNIFICENT in its presentation. But, inevitably, his choices of "requirements" are completely arbitrary. MOST of them, I agree with! But they are still arbitrary. For example: WHY "digital NOT analog"? If there were to exist an analog machine with a complete operating system, peripherals, office productivity suite, etc. would that not be a "personal computer"? What about a requirement of "usefulness"? To MANY PEOPLE, but not all of us, "personal computer" represents a device for word processing, spreadsheets, etc. MANY "experts" in the trade would reject inclusion of any machine without application software availability. One that is hard for me to personally object to is the requirement of programmability by the end user. I personally would be loathe to purchase a machine that I couldn't program, BUT IS THAT PART OF THE DEFINITION? What percentage of Macintosh users have the facilities and tools, much less capability, to program their computers? Does that now make THOSE become "NOT Personal Computers"? It is entirely possible for a manufacturer to produce a machine comparable to modern "personal computers" and NOT make available necessary programming tools! Imagine if you will, if MICROS~1 were to have held a monopoly on programming tools for WindozeCE, or if Apple were to have declared itself to be sole source for application software for the IMAC? His choices for "requirements" are VERY REASONABLE. But still completely arbitrary. "moveable by one person" WHY? Seems like a good idea, but what about a computer built into an office desk? His work is far from unique in being arbitrary. For comparison, consider how you would define the differences between a microcomputer, a minicomputer, and a mainframe: my favorite is: A Microcomputer, you can pick up and carry. A minicomputer, requires a handtruck. A mainframe, requires a forklift and a union moving crew. BTW, yes, Doug DID say that he was selling the domain name. Presumably he did; or has he merely taken on a new hobby? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Sellam Ismail wrote:

Considering that the discussion is nominally about "PERSONAL computers", which presumably means computers for individual use, rather than industrial/commercial/governmental/military, I have to wonder about posts that nominate fighter planes, missile computers, and smart bombs. I do sincerely hope that I haven't said anything to offend you.

Good. I just didn't want to add too many more collectors of "weapons of mass destruction" to the list of people that I have offended.

BEFORE the 5150, PC was occasionally used to mean "Personal Computer"! A few miles form my house, there was a store named "PC World"!. But they folded up before 8/11/1981. Therefore, I maintain that IBM can not even be credited with NAMING the field. Although it is obviously a requirement for SOME people's definition, I remember a few machines without CRTs, that used printing terminals for I/O. Being able to run FORTRAN on one, it met _MY_ requirements for a "personal computer".

On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: <mass snippage> (Oooooo... they are gonna hate me for this one!) B^} Ok, I agree with the sentiment that there is no point in continuing this debate, but it struck me that we can have some fun with it. --- A PROPOSAL: (for VCF III) Let us conduct a poll amongst attendees. Given the premise that small/personal/affordable/almost inexpensive/etc. computers are new again, and they are looking for a computer that they would like to own for personal use (avoiding the phrase "personal computer" at all costs), what machine (among those on display) would they select for their use. The winner could then be designated the 'Official' VCF III "Computer for Personal Use". (until the following year) BASIC rules: (pun intended) 1) The unit must be functioning so that prospective voters can 'test drive' it (or at least view a running demo). A list/plaquard with description and specifications of the unit should be part of the display. 2) If the unit is available for interactive use, it must be running some O.S./Language that was originally available for the unit and stands a chance of being recognized by a casual viewer. (so yes, an IBM 5110 could be running APL, but would that endear it to the masses?) 3) The unit and associated peripherals should be 'unadorned' beyond its original styling and configuration. (no undocumentable psycho '70s black light paint jobs) 4) The unit and its associated peripherals should be proper contemporaries. (no 1970 PDP-8s adorned with an SGI as a graphics engine) 5) Balloting will be by mark-sense form ("class, take out your #2 pencils, and fill in the bubbles completely!"), and will be processed on appropriately vintage equipment at Noon on Sunday. --- Prizes for the winner (as if the honor of the designation is not sufficient) are yet to be determined. But when you get it, it's gonna be good! Additional thoughts/comments welcome! Mayhaps this will encourage more folks to have their gear in operation! -jim --- jimw(a)computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

I love it :) <more snipppp> Maybe we should fix that only systems within the 10 year rule can be classified. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, James Willing wrote: 1981. August to be exact. All these facts and more can be found in Kevin Polsson's excellent timeline at http://www1.islandnet.com/~kpolsson/comphist.htm Anyway, hold your pants on! The rules for the exhibit are coming soon! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99]

On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, James Willing wrote: This is actually close to one of the judging categories we have come up with for the VCF 3.0 exhibit: the People's Choice award. The winner of this award will be chosen by the attendees. BTW, the rules for the exhibit competition will be posted shortly. We're working out the final details! Hey, I never thought of putting my old punch card equipment to work :) I'm in the process of amassing a nice collection of prizes! The intention of the exhibit is to in fact get people to participate directly in VCF while at the same time advancing the hobby by getting folks to really get to know more about their machines by doing the research and preparation necessary for an exhibit. Stay tuned, the announcement and rules for the first VCF exhibit competition will be posted shortly! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 04/03/99]