1 Oct
2013
1 Oct
'13
11:53 a.m.
Hi,
I know that the DEC TSZ07 9 Track drive is made by Cipher.
Does someone here know if there is a near equivalent Cipher Model?
The Cause of my Question ist, that I think I have a ugly fault in the PSU,
when the Drive is in standby, some parts of the circuit are overheating.
Look here for pictures: http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/TSZ07/
I've repaired the PCB but the parts are still getting hot in standby,
because standby no fan is running..
Since the Technical Manual of the TSZ07 contains no schematics, I've
looking for the equivalent Cipher model to find schematics of that PSU...
Kind Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
1 Oct
1 Oct
12:20 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Holm Tiffe
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 8:53 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: DEC TSZ07 ..relabeled Cipher 9 Track tape?
Hi,
I know that the DEC TSZ07 9 Track drive is made by Cipher.
Does someone here know if there is a near equivalent Cipher Model?
The Cause of my Question ist, that I think I have a ugly fault in the PSU, when
the Drive is in standby, some parts of the circuit are overheating.
Look here for pictures: http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/TSZ07/
I've repaired the PCB but the parts are still getting hot in standby, because
standby no fan is running..
Since the Technical Manual of the TSZ07 contains no schematics, I've looking
for the equivalent Cipher model to find schematics of that PSU...
I am pretty sure it's the Cipher F880. I have a couple of them in my personal
collection, but I don't recall if I have prints. -- Ian
2 Oct
2 Oct
10:25 a.m.
On Oct 1, 2013, at 12:20 PM, Ian King <IanK at LivingComputerMuseum.org> wrote:
The TS05 is a Cipher F880. I have one, and the manuals are all on Bitsavers.
The F880 manual actually reveals a number of diagnostic modes that the DEC
manual does not.
I would find it extremely unlikely that DEC would rebadge the F880 TWICE;
also, the F880 does not support GCR, so 6250 is out (some versions of the
F880 have 3200, which is just a faster 1600, but the TS05 does not as far
as I know; I assume it's really a firmware limitation, but couldn't say
for sure).
- Dave
Since the
Technical Manual of the TSZ07 contains no schematics, I've looking
for the equivalent Cipher model to find schematics of that PSU...
I am pretty sure it's the Cipher F880. I have a couple of them in my personal
collection, but I don't recall if I have prints. -- Ian 
1 Oct
1 Oct
12:42 p.m.
F880 or M990?
re,
reiche
On Oct 1, 2013 5:58 PM, "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
Hi,
I know that the DEC TSZ07 9 Track drive is made by Cipher.
Does someone here know if there is a near equivalent Cipher Model?
The Cause of my Question ist, that I think I have a ugly fault in the PSU,
when the Drive is in standby, some parts of the circuit are overheating.
Look here for pictures: http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/TSZ07/
I've repaired the PCB but the parts are still getting hot in standby,
because standby no fan is running..
Since the Technical Manual of the TSZ07 contains no schematics, I've
looking for the equivalent Cipher model to find schematics of that PSU...
Kind Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
2 Oct
2 Oct
2:39 a.m.
Al Kossow wrote:
On 10/1/13 9:42 AM, Sander Reiche wrote:
Hmm, M995S looks identical so far.
Besides of the Manual another question:
The M995S is often specified as 800/1600/6250BPI capable on the net,
so far as I know the TSZ07 supports 1600/3200/6250 BPI.
Does one know if it supports 800BPI also?
We have an old PDP11 "Clone" K1630 here in Germany from ROBOTRON that needs
a special Boot Tape to be written at 800BPI. Want to know if I can do this
on the TSZ07..
(The K1630 is build with 8 Bit NMOS Bit Slices and has a special
BUS Controller Chip that needs to be initialized on each card to the QBUS
Adresses and Vectors that the OS wants. iThere are no switches or wire wrap
Pins to do this, it's done by Software.
The Console Hardware is build around a Z80-Sio and totally different to
what is usual in the PDP11 World. It is the slowest known PDP11 also...
It where Nice to waken up this machine:
http://www.robotrontechnik.de/index.htm?/html/computer/k1600.htm
But there is no boot tape existing anymore.
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
F880 or M990?
M995
good luck finding a manual
9:34 a.m.
On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 2:39 AM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
Al Kossow wrote:
> On 10/1/13 9:42 AM, Sander Reiche wrote:
> >F880 or M990?
> >
> M995
I thought it was the F880, but that is in no way certain knowledge.
Besides of the Manual another question:
The M995S is often specified as 800/1600/6250BPI capable on the net,
so far as I know the TSZ07 supports 1600/3200/6250 BPI.
I have a TSZ07. AFAIK, it does not support 800 bpi. I have no
manuals for it. I got it locally from Uni surplus along with the
Alpha it was attached to for less than it costs to ship a TSZ07
in the first place. It came with no manuals.
*Perhaps* once the issue of models numbers is resolved, one
could experiment with Cipher firmware and add 800 bpi, but
that's only a possibility. One needs the right Cipher firmware,
naturally, but the were a lot of Cipher drives out there. If it
hasn't yet been captured, with a little digging it might be.
-ethan
3 Oct
3 Oct
9:06 a.m.
Ethan Dicks wrote:
On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 2:39 AM, Holm Tiffe <holm at
freibergnet.de> wrote:
I've looked at the schematics from the F880 Drive, it features a mains
50i/60 cycles transformer like all the models you can find schematics for.
In the TSZ07 thre is none, there is only the Switchings PSU that provides
all the needed Voltages.
Kind Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
Al Kossow wrote:
> On 10/1/13 9:42 AM, Sander Reiche wrote:
> >F880 or M990?
> >
> M995
I thought it was the F880, but that is in no way certain knowledge.
Besides of the Manual another question:
The M995S is often specified as 800/1600/6250BPI capable on the net,
so far as I know the TSZ07 supports 1600/3200/6250 BPI.
I have a TSZ07. AFAIK, it does not support 800 bpi. I have no
manuals for it. I got it locally from Uni surplus along with the
Alpha it was attached to for less than it costs to ship a TSZ07
in the first place. It came with no manuals.
*Perhaps* once the issue of models numbers is resolved, one
could experiment with Cipher firmware and add 800 bpi, but
that's only a possibility. One needs the right Cipher firmware,
naturally, but the were a lot of Cipher drives out there. If it
hasn't yet been captured, with a little digging it might be.
-ethan 
2 Oct
2 Oct
4:50 a.m.
On Tue, 1 Oct 2013, Holm Tiffe wrote:
I've repaired the PCB but the parts are still
getting hot in standby,
because standby no fan is running..
Have you thoroughly checked the electrolytics? I.e. capacitance *and* ESR?
I recently had the same phenomenon where some parts of a small SMPS were
getting very hot although the load was low. After checking the caps, I
found some that still had their full capacitance, but the ESR was about
0.9-1.2 ohms. A new cap with otherwise same values has 0.02 ohms. I
changed them, and since then, the PS is much cooler.
Christian
6:55 a.m.
Christian Corti wrote:
On Tue, 1 Oct 2013, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Christian, I've repairing Switching PSUs and Drive Controllers for the
Industry to get my daily income.
It seems, that I have todo some reverse engeneering on the PSU of the TSZ07
to find out what's wrong. It isn't the main switching part of the PSU that
gets hot, more something like Parts of the Standby Power regulation.
The Power Resistor that was originally in there (smaller as that what I've
soldered in for replacement) is made to get hot, but unfortunately it gets
hotter than is good for the surrounding parts, inkluding the PCB itself.
Maybe the cause is to much current in to the drive itself, maybe the PSU is
the Problem. But I don't even have the pinout from the PSU Connector, nor
I've repaired the PCB but the parts are still
getting hot in standby,
because standby no fan is running..
Have you thoroughly checked the electrolytics? I.e. capacitance *and* ESR?
I recently had the same phenomenon where some parts of a small SMPS were
getting very hot although the load was low. After checking the caps, I
found some that still had their full capacitance, but the ESR was about
0.9-1.2 ohms. A new cap with otherwise same values has 0.02 ohms. I
changed them, and since then, the PS is much cooler.
Christian from the drive electronics itself. That's the
Problem.
Kind Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
3:37 p.m.
It seems, that I have todo some reverse engeneering on
the PSU of the TSZ07
to find out what's wrong. It isn't the main switching part of the PSU that
gets hot, more something like Parts of the Standby Power regulation.
The Power Resistor that was originally in there (smaller as that what I've
soldered in for replacement) is made to get hot, but unfortunately it gets
hotter than is good for the surrounding parts, inkluding the PCB itself.
It would be interesting to know what this resistor is for.
If there's a capacitor-resistor-capacitor smoothing circuit (that is a
capacitor acorss the supply (maybe rectified mains), then a series
resistor, then another capacitor, then if the first capacitor goes high
impedance (either losing capacitance or increased ESR) then more ripple
current willflow through the resistor and second capacitor. Ripple
current heats up resistors just as well as any other current :-). So a
failed capacitor can cause this.
Another thign that DEC certainly did was to put a power resisotr in
series with the mains input to limit the inrush current. This resistor
is bypassed by a triac which is triggered once the PSU gets going. If the
triace of its control circuit has failed, the resistor carries the full
PSU input current and overheats. I think DEC even once used a relay to
short out the resistor, but anyway.
-tony
3 Oct
3 Oct
5:47 a.m.
On Wed, 2 Oct 2013, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Christian, I've repairing Switching PSUs and Drive
Controllers for the
Industry to get my daily income.
It seems, that I have todo some reverse engeneering on the PSU of the TSZ07
to find out what's wrong. It isn't the main switching part of the PSU that
So if you are commercially repairing PSUs, then I assume that you have
already traced the schematic of that area, and that you know what the
power resistor is good for.
Still, you haven't said if you have checked the electrolytics in the
standby circuit.
Christian
8:59 a.m.
Christian Corti wrote:
On Wed, 2 Oct 2013, Holm Tiffe wrote:
When I'm repairing PSUs, I NOT always trace Schematics, why should I?
What the heck do you think why I'm asking here for some documentation?
Repairing that Drive is a matter of time, unlike my comercial work, where I
got pay'd for my time I have to do this in my free time, its hobbyism.
The contruction of this PSU is ugly, you can't power it on if it is
disassembled, since there 2 PCBs with to short wires between in there.
Next thing is, the schematics aren't that straight forward in that thing.
It is over one year since I last looked at this drive, only the mail from
shaddoo brought me back to this thing.
Yes, I'm always testing electrolytics with an ESR meter any time I work on
PSUs. You are satisfied now?
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
Christian, I've repairing Switching PSUs and
Drive Controllers for the
Industry to get my daily income.
It seems, that I have todo some reverse engeneering on the PSU of the TSZ07
to find out what's wrong. It isn't the main switching part of the PSU that
So if you are commercially repairing PSUs, then I assume that you have
already traced the schematic of that area, and that you know what the
power resistor is good for.
Still, you haven't said if you have checked the electrolytics in the
standby circuit.
Christian
4 Oct
4 Oct
4:31 a.m.
On Thu, 3 Oct 2013, Holm Tiffe wrote:
When I'm repairing PSUs, I NOT always trace
Schematics, why should I?
What the heck do you think why I'm asking here for some documentation?
[...]
Yes, I'm always testing electrolytics with an ESR
meter any time I work on
PSUs. You are satisfied now?
1. Sei nicht so pampig!
2. I just wanted to help you!
3. Why don't you just trace the schematic of *this* PSU, if it is so
difficult to find the fault otherwise? It should be clear by now that
you won't find any useful information in any document for that "modern"
piece of hardware. Then, you can publish your schematic and we might be
able to help you better.
Christian
5:31 a.m.
Christian Corti wrote:
On Thu, 3 Oct 2013, Holm Tiffe wrote:
Warum denn nicht, das war doch selbstverst?ndlich..
When I'm repairing PSUs, I NOT always trace
Schematics, why should I?
What the heck do you think why I'm asking here for some documentation?
[...]
Yes, I'm always testing electrolytics with an
ESR meter any time I work on
PSUs. You are satisfied now?
1. Sei nicht so pampig! 2. I just wanted to help you!
I know. :-)
3. Why don't you just trace the schematic of
*this* PSU, if it is so
difficult to find the fault otherwise? It should be clear by now that
you won't find any useful information in any document for that "modern"
piece of hardware. Then, you can publish your schematic and we might be
able to help you better.
Christian
Christian I think when I have had the time to trace the schematics of this
special PSU to find the fault, I would easily find and repair it.
As I already wrote, it is over a year now since I had to move the drive
out of my Bastelbude for space reasons.
It curently sit's a floor deeper and waits for free time.
I must get at it next time, since shadoo wants a EPROM for his faulty
drive and I have to look what type is socketed on the Z8000 PCB.
It where nice if I could find at least block schematics for the rest of the
electronics, maybe with some pinout of the PSU. Remember there are around
30-40 pins on the connectors of the psu that are going to a single cable
harness inside the drive, I have to trace what's conected to whom.
The PSU has a 110/220V auto input switching capability and it has a standby
mode too (it seems) nothing that helps to find the the fault really fast.
Next thing is, I don't want to power up that PSU w/o proper loads.
Thats why I asked here for similar schematics, but unfortunately it dosn't
seem that Cipher has publisched more than I already found and the PSU is a
OEM thing.
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
3944
days inactive
3947
days old
14 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cc＠informatik.uni-stuttgart.de -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
fraveydank＠gmail.com -
holm＠freibergnet.de -
IanK＠LivingComputerMuseum.org -
sander.reiche＠gmail.com